I'm feeling Nickel and Dimed by Makeb

[Shingara]

crazy, we have been told there is no class story in this.

[CrazyOldMystic]

I was unaware of that, I have been looking for new announcements on this new expansion, but I did not see any new news about it on the home page. Where did they announce this? I would like to take a look.

[Shingara]

they are in the dev tracker, think there are about 3 of them.

[Lord_of_Mu]

I won't until the expansion has been released. This expansion will set the benchmark for me and I'll be weighing all future purchases on quality and quantity of contented provided in Rise of the Hutt Cartel.

[Eillack]

I 100% agree with you OP.

[Smashbrother]

-

 

Every couple years, I expect an expansion that significantly updates the game. In SWTOR I would expecte a full rework of all classes so they play different and the game legitimately feels updated. I would expect a full Act 4 including a minimum of 3 Voss/Belsavis/Corelia sized planets, a class story that progresses through each planet for all 8 base classes, and some evolution of my relationship with my companions. I would also expect to see at least a couple new flashpoints, and at least 1 new tier of operations. I would pay 40 dollars for this. I also wouldn't expect this to happen this year. It would be a 2014 thing.

 

This is the business model that I'm comfortable with.

 

 

 

***? You're fine with paying $40 for an expansion which would have 3 or so planets, but not $10 for one planet? You make no sense.

 

Makeb is increasing level cap. With higher level always comes new skills/talents. This is going to change how classes work.

[Anti_Bodies]

I've been having a generally negative feeling all week about the announcement to charge for the next content update. I'm someone who has kind of grown up with the subscription model. The business model that I'm used to has me paying 15 dollars a month for a game to play, including regular content updates including solo content, open world group content, minor gameply updates -I'm not talking about bugs-, and raiding updates.

 

I want to be careful to say that I'm not being critical of the Makeb content update. I think you guys have done a fine job of releasing new content on a timely scale. If not for the Nickel and Dime aspect, I would be energized and excited about a nice planet to play next spring.

 

Every couple years, I expect an expansion that significantly updates the game. In SWTOR I would expecte a full rework of all classes so they play different and the game legitimately feels updated. I would expect a full Act 4 including a minimum of 3 Voss/Belsavis/Corelia sized planets, a class story that progresses through each planet for all 8 base classes, and some evolution of my relationship with my companions. I would also expect to see at least a couple new flashpoints, and at least 1 new tier of operations. I would pay 40 dollars for this. I also wouldn't expect this to happen this year. It would be a 2014 thing.

 

This is the business model that I'm comfortable with.

 

Instead, in a few months, I'm going to be asked to pay additional money to download a content patch hidden behind a paywall. If I don't pay, then I don't get to continue playing endgame content. It feels wrong and it makes me wonder if this is going to be the new normal for SWTOR. If it is, then does that mean I shouldn't ever expect to see a big expansion that reworks all the classes and makes the game feel fresh again? Should I never expect to have months of new class stories to discover? Will there even be an Act 4? How many times will I have to plunk down 10 dollar bills for content updates in addition to my 15 dollars a month I already pay before I see a real expansion?

 

I've kind of been feeling crappy all week about this announcement and I haven't been sure how to word it. I'm not going to pre-order the patch and hopefully, my opinion will evolve as more information comes out.

 

Regardless, I realize that when this content is released, I will be making a final decision to accept the new "pay us 10 bucks when we tell you to" business model or leave the game I enjoy playing forever.

 

That is, unless the business team behind the game changes their mind and offers the patch for free to subscribers.

 

Fantastic post - sums up everything in an articulate enough fashion. This feels more like DLC then an expansion, and DLC's in an mmo are supposed to be free with the subscription while expansions are paid addons.

 

one point to make. this is a Free to Play game. So being that it is free 2 play, the expansion should be free 2 play. Just fits the marketing scheme. Now this is some hybrid payment thing.

 

No, subs should get it and F2P players should have to pay for it. Subs are paying $15 a month for DLC/servers/full game, this is DLC. F2O players don't have to pay anything. Sorta feels like you think you are entitled to free stuff?

 

The fun thing is:

 

 

NOBODY outside of Bioware knows how big Rise of the Hutt-Cartel will be in content except that it brings the lvl-cap-increase and Makeb as planet, yet pretty much EVERYBODY seems to know it won't be worth 15 $.....

 

So....uh...do you guys have a magic glass-ball or a pimped Maya-calendar that tells you the future or something?

 

 

What happened to the good old "we wait till we have ALL the infos, then think about it, then praise / complain" ?

 

 

Oh, right, it's alot easier to directly say "i have no idea how many hours of playtime i'll get for those 15$, but in no way it'll be worth 15$, gotta grab my torch and pitchfork"

 

We know that

• no new companion content
  
• no new class story content
  
• It's 1 planet similar to other large ones w/ heroics
  

 

They have touted the planet, level 55, new gear, but not

• new flash points
  
• new ops
  
• new WZ
  
• open world PVP
  

 

If they were gonna offer a bunch of new stuff to validate this being an expansion opposed to DLC (which again, subs should not pay for DLC, only expansions) they would have presented some sort of information on it.

[Durasturan]

***? You're fine with paying $40 for an expansion which would have 3 or so planets, but not $10 for one planet? You make no sense.

 

Makeb is increasing level cap. With higher level always comes new skills/talents. This is going to change how classes work.

 

No, I think you're missing the point. Most "$40 expansions" come with nearly as much content as the original came. Look at WotLK, Cata, MoP. Look at DDO and Rift.

 

For forty dollars you're getting an area worth about 4-5 planets. But you're also getting, new class, new race, new story, new quests, new level cap and abilities, 2 new warzones, 2 new arenas, new profession, 6 new flashpoints and 3 new raids. Plus new tiers of PVP and PVE. Look at how much time it's going to take you to go through all that. The leveling maybe 3 or 4 days. The flashpoints maybe a week. The raids, for full clears? Maybe a month. And the new warzones would add a very nice bit of variety to a bland of boring PVP environment. You get T HAT for $40.

 

Let's assume the planet is monstrous, that it's the size of 4-5 planets in game right now. There's absolutely every reason to believe it WONT be, they flat out verbatim said it's the size of one of the largest planets, not even the largest lol.

 

You're still not getting all the extra pve content, and nont of the pvp content, you know the stuff that's actually going to keep you busy? See once you've done the quests, bam, done, over with. Sure there might be a daily zone, but that's really not much and who likes running dailies? The new warzones, flashpoints and raids are going to be what add real variety to the game because they're the stuff that won't be "ok done now i actually can never play this again..." kind of thing.

 

Also, since it's faction quests, not class quests, there's not even any point to playing through the content on your alts really at all...

 

So yeah, the difference is between 19.99 or 9.99 for subs and 39.99 or 19.99 for MoP. It's only $20 now and it came with about 10x more content. And RIGHT NOW it's the exact same price. At release was it twice as much? Sure, but it easily came with 10x more content so most people were fine paying 40.00...

[Grayseven]

I agree. It was said to be free before.

 

 

-my negative post for the day.

 

No, they said they weren't sure if Makeb was going to be free. This was when they also weren't sure if it would be "the largest content update ever" or if it would be made into an expansion.

 

And this isn't an update, it is an expansion. Every game company in existence charges for expansions.

 

Quit whining. If you want it, buy it. If you don't, don't. The constant wailing of people who think everything in life should be free is ridiculous. Companies exist to make money, not give you stuff because you think you deserve it. Get over it and either pay for it or quit playing and go find another game that is going to charge you three times as much for every expansion and put them out at much longer intervals.

[Goretzu]

I was unaware of that, I have been looking for new announcements on this new expansion, but I did not see any new news about it on the home page. Where did they announce this? I would like to take a look.

 

Yeah there is no "class story", there may be something called "Ch4", but in reality it is simply a Planet Story (i.e. exactly the same for each faction with any class).

[Shingara]

No, they said they weren't sure if Makeb was going to be free. This was when they also weren't sure if it would be "the largest content update ever" or if it would be made into an expansion.

 

And this isn't an update, it is an expansion. Every game company in existence charges for expansions.

 

Quit whining. If you want it, buy it. If you don't, don't. The constant wailing of people who think everything in life should be free is ridiculous. Companies exist to make money, not give you stuff because you think you deserve it. Get over it and either pay for it or quit playing and go find another game that is going to charge you three times as much for every expansion and put them out at much longer intervals.

 

No they said it was a free content update, the doctors left and then hickman changed it to we arnt sure and the 1st time we heard about subs having to pay for it was when they put it up for pre order, so we didnt even get told by hickman subs would pay for it, he just threw the price at us and ran away.

[Katsuragisama]

[snip]

 

We know that

• no new companion content
  
• no new class story content
  
• It's 1 planet similar to other large ones w/ heroics
  

 

They have touted the planet, level 55, new gear, but not

• new flash points
  
• new ops
  
• new WZ
  
• open world PVP
  

 

If they were gonna offer a bunch of new stuff to validate this being an expansion opposed to DLC (which again, subs should not pay for DLC, only expansions) they would have presented some sort of information on it.

 

Which means either:

 

It's not coming, or they're making it up as they go along. Either way it doesnt bode well for the quality aspect of this "expansion". I'd actually bet on they're making it up as they go along. Hurray, more bugs!

[Shingara]

ye thats why i said i see them putting in a nightmare level for flashpoints.

[mothear]

ye thats why i said i see them putting in a nightmare level for flashpoints.

It does seem the 'cheapest' option, however I would prefer that they leave existing FP's alone and introduce new ones.

[Shingara]

It does seem the 'cheapest' option, however I would prefer that they leave existing FP's alone and introduce new ones.

 

yes but we all realise hickam is in charge so if wishes were fishes none of us would starve. Im starting to come to the understanding that we set the bar very very very low, see what will take the least dev work to complete and start there, anything above is a bonus and if we cross our fingers really tight they might not be bugged out when we do the missions.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Shingara

[Leokul]

I would like to point out; regardless of what is actually released with the initial Rise of the Hutt Cartel expansion pack, no-one ever said that was the end of the deal and that's all you get.

 

Bioware has been slowly but steadily adding content: Flashpoints, Warzones, Operations, Daily Areas, the Legacy System and Free to Play throughout the year without expecting payments beyond the initial subscription fee. (My opinion is that the the Cartel Market is really just a convenience/vanity add-on right now)

 

No doubt level 51-55 versions of the same will materialise throughout next year, as well as the same continued support and content for everything before level 50, it's not like the company will (or actually could) forget about those players that haven't or won't pay for the Rise of the Hutt Cartel content.

[Shingara]

I would like to point out; regardless of what is actually released with the initial Rise of the Hutt Cartel expansion pack, no-one ever said that was the end of the deal and that's all you get.

 

Bioware has been slowly but steadily adding content: Flashpoints, Warzones, Operations, Daily Areas, the Legacy System and Free to Play throughout the year without expecting payments beyond the initial subscription fee. (My opinion is that the the Cartel Market is really just a convenience/vanity add-on right now)

 

No doubt level 51-55 versions of the same will materialise throughout next year, as well as the same continued support and content for everything before level 50, it's not like the company will (or actually could) forget about those players that haven't or won't pay for the Rise of the Hutt Cartel content.

 

well hell, here is me thinking that the 2.3 mil box sales not counting digital and the subscriptions paid for that, who would have thought that an mmo company could impliment new flashpoints and operations, daily areas and things that should have been in the game before launch with subscriptions alone.

 

And do you honestly think they are going to create new lvl 50 operations and flashpoints or daily areas for lvl 50 when the game is set at lvl 55.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Shingara

[mothear]

I would like to point out; regardless of what is actually released with the initial Rise of the Hutt Cartel expansion pack, no-one ever said that was the end of the deal and that's all you get.

 

Bioware has been slowly but steadily adding content: Flashpoints, Warzones, Operations, Daily Areas, the Legacy System and Free to Play throughout the year without expecting payments beyond the initial subscription fee. (My opinion is that the the Cartel Market is really just a convenience/vanity add-on right now)

 

No doubt level 51-55 versions of the same will materialise throughout next year, as well as the same continued support and content for everything before level 50, it's not like the company will (or actually could) forget about those players that haven't or won't pay for the Rise of the Hutt Cartel content.

 

I hope you are correct, however all physical PVE content released since live i.e. not legacy and GF, has been geared towards end game. This seems fairly standard in MMO's I've played. I would not be surprised to see this continue and those that do not buy the expansion being locked out of future content releases.

 

Hope I'm wrong.

[Leokul]

I hope you are correct, however all physical PVE content released since live i.e. not legacy and GF, has been geared towards end game. This seems fairly standard in MMO's I've played. I would not be surprised to see this continue and those that do not buy the expansion being locked out of future content releases.

 

Hope I'm wrong.

 

Yes, unfortunately you are likely correct; any new content additions will be geared towards level 51+.

 

However, my original point still stands; just because an expansion for an MMO gets released with a limited volume of content (which is presumptive at best since no-one actually knows yet exactly how much is coming at the time of release), does not mean that's all it gets until the next named "major" expansion;

For instance: Wrath of the Lich King was released in 2008, but was continually supported with additional quest content right up until 2010 when Cataclysm came out (Icecrown Citadel and the fall of Arthas didn't actually get released until mid 2009)

 

Also, just because we're seeing "only one" new planet and no new class story arcs yet, does not necessarily mean that they might not enhance the existing planets with higher level instanced areas further down the line. (which lock out the lower level characters as mentioned)

 

That is optimistic though, it is my feeling that the 8 class story arcs have probably been finished for the moment, since the time and expense required for the continuation of 8 separate story arcs (in addition to the factional zone quests) would likely be bundled in with considerably more than just one planet.

[Exilim]

I just wish they were a bit more forthcoming about what will come featured with this expansion. I pre-ordered anyways though without regrets.

[Sharrux]

My household has 4 paid accounts. We have all played since the game went live, and after a year I can say that all of us think that paying for this upcoming "update" (lets be honest its not a Expansion) is a insult to people that kept paying a monthly fee. I do not mind paying a monthly fee for 4 accounts. We enjoy playing togather and have fun, but come on now I will have to pay everytime Bioware decides to dribble out more content?

It feels like being spit on and being told its good for me. I think if as a subscriber if I need to pay for more content in small amounts its time to find another game for the family to play.

 

I totally agree that this just isn't right. Its what subscribers pay for. Calling it an expansion doesn't make it one.

[Arkerus]

My household has 4 paid accounts. We have all played since the game went live, and after a year I can say that all of us think that paying for this upcoming "update" (lets be honest its not a Expansion) is a insult to people that kept paying a monthly fee. I do not mind paying a monthly fee for 4 accounts. We enjoy playing togather and have fun, but come on now I will have to pay everytime Bioware decides to dribble out more content?

It feels like being spit on and being told its good for me. I think if as a subscriber if I need to pay for more content in small amounts its time to find another game for the family to play.

 

I totally agree that this just isn't right. Its what subscribers pay for. Calling it an expansion doesn't make it one.

 

What if they took the original makeb "data", added new areas, added level increases, added a FP/WZ/OP and some other misc things. What if the new Makeb doesn't even look like the original leaked data (save the map design, ect).

[darklordpotter]

What if they took the original makeb "data", added new areas, added level increases, added a FP/WZ/OP and some other misc things. What if the new Makeb doesn't even look like the original leaked data (save the map design, ect).

 

Got any evidence they did any of those things? If not why say it?

[Shingara]

What if they took the original makeb "data", added new areas, added level increases, added a FP/WZ/OP and some other misc things. What if the new Makeb doesn't even look like the original leaked data (save the map design, ect).

 

What if they took makeb, added 9000 square meters of ingame land, gave us player housing and and let us build our own towns, then we could all do a special mission that let us play yoda, travel forward in time, slap anakin, jump back and thats the real reason he turned to the dark side.

 

What if, what if, what if, what if..............................

 

What if they make a content patch but we have a greedy person in charge who no longer has oversight on him whom he answers too, sees a quick buck and charges for a content patch, leaves no info about it and goes and hides while the forums explode and let some poor csr take all the flack and anger as if its her fault.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Shingara

[Vlad_Dracul_]

First of all, I am not angry because of 10 bucks. As i said many times before, its like two package of cigarettes or one lunch for me.

 

BUT, i have questions:

 

1) Why the hell i cant buy it by CARTEL COINS? Cause it would be technically free for subs, saving complimentary coins? A little insulting to loyal customers, i think.

 

2) Some people using TIMECARDS, because they dont have credit cards, or they simply dont want internet banking. Why i can't pay something there by days from timecards, what is technically SAME pack of money?

 

3) I cant buy PHYSICAL expansion. I know, 1 planet and 5 lvls isnt much worth to do physical packages for real shops, but its better than push people to only one way to give you money.

 

IMO best thing you can do, Bioware people, is allowing people to buy this 'expansion' by your precious super nice new Cartel Coins. after whole circus about F2P and cartel coins.