Remove the Interrupt from Force Charge

[AdmiralParmesan]

It is safe to say SwToR is a melee based game. Currently speaking the only reliable ranged dps class is the sniper class, which is still relatively unpopular. What makes the sniper class viable is that it can actually get casts off in this game as opposed to the other two ranged AC Merc and Sorc. The melee classes in this game already have the advantage when it comes down to cooldowns, options and burst potential. The main problems with the Sorcerer and Mercenary class are summarized below and afterwards the reasoning for this nerf.

 

Mercenary DPS

Pros

-Decent to good damage single target when left alone

-Can heal up when not being targeted or focused

-Dispell

 

Cons

-Easily shutdown by pressure due to cast reliance

-Low mitigation

-Low mobility

-Low control capability

-Lack of options

 

Sorcerer DPS

Pros

-Good aoe pressure (not burst, pressure. This is what leads to the large numbers you see sorcs pulling in warzones)

-Can offheal decently and can pull teammates

-Dispell

-Decent Mobility and can kite a single target relatively effectively

-Decent control depending on the spec played

 

Cons

-Easily shutdown due to realiance on casts

-Single target damage has a ramp-up time due to Dots being necessary

-Unreliable and low burst damage, Hybrid needs force lightning for its burst, Madness has no burst and lightning can't get the casts off to utilize it's burst

-No good mechanic for force management

-Lowest in game mitigation and no defensive cooldown, no unique offensive cooldown either

-Lack of options

 

Now all of these problems would not be fixed by nerfing the interrupt on force charge, but it would help. Both Mercenaries, Sorcerers and their republic counterparts are hunted in warzones due to their low mitigation and lack of ways to fight back. Force charge is already a gap closer, root and interrupt as well as mediocre damage. The fact that it force charge is an interrupt makes it even harder for these classes to get any cast off. It is highly annoying to be aggro an entire team merely because of your class choice. It has come to the point that certain players will target, focus and follow users of said classes merely because they are at such a disadvantage. Combining the force charge interrupt with the regular interrupt and the large amounts of CC each class has makes it impossible to even get casts off even semi-regularly. This is especially so as these classes are often chain force charged making it impossible to get any cast off, or get away from your opponents due to being frequently rooted.

 

As stated earlier this would not fix all the inherent problems with these classes. However if Powertech can justify their burst by saying its a glass cannon, so should these. Mercenaries and Sorcerers are easily just as squishy if not more squishy than a powertech, and a powertech doesn't have to worry about casts. This is not saying powertechs are op, but almost every player I have pvped with has quit the game if their main was one of these two advanced classes, or rerolled. The fact that there are no Mercenaries at all in rated pvp and less than 4 decent Sorceror DPS in rated on my server is a problem. The same few class/spec variations have dominated this game since the very beginning and its starting to become pretty stale because of such.

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------

Even if you do not agree with this nerf Idea I hope you will at least support that these classes need some help to become more viable in a competitive scene. The amount of skill necessary to even be remotely successful as a DPS sorc or DPS merc is out of balance with the results of what the classes can accomplish.

Edited December 19, 2012 by AdmiralParmesan

[Xinika]

-Lowest in game mitigation...

Balance Shadows would like to have a serious word with you on this.

[cycao]

Balance Shadows would like to have a serious word with you on this.

 

Yep, only play madness if I have access to a pocket healer these days.

[AdmiralParmesan]

Balance Shadows would like to have a serious word with you on this.

 

 

 

Shadows still have force Shroud, Can switch to Dark charge, Deflction, Force cloack as well as more CC abilities than a sorcerer. DPS Sorcerer's only have static barrier which also harms the synergy between them and sorcerer healers and an instant cast heal that heals for around 1.8k on non crit.

 

Its pretty easy to tell that even though balance/madness assassins are squishy they are still less squishy than sorcs.

Edited December 19, 2012 by AdmiralParmesan

[PoliteAssasin]

You do realize that this will never happen right? Just sayin.

[Xienive]

Shadows still have force Shroud, Can switch to Dark charge, Deflction, Force cloack as well as more CC abilities than a sorcerer. DPS Sorcerer's only have static barrier which also harms the synergy between them and sorcerer healers and an instant cast heal that heals for around 1.8k on non crit.

 

Its pretty easy to tell that even though balance/madness assassins are squishy they are still less squishy than sorcs.

 

That completely kills the point of playing a Balance Shadow...so no, not really.

[Invictusthetaru]

This is literally only going to make the melee take 1k extra damage? Maybe 2k? At that point you should be focusing on getting him out of your face and not casting again, so surely that isn't the issue.

 

I really don't care all that much whether the interrupt gets removed, just saying it's not that big a deal in the first place.

 

If anything you could hope that an actual interrupt doesn't lock out your move for as long or something.

[ArchangelLBC]

On the one hand I agree completely in a PVP setting. I never understand how melee dare to think that ranged abilities are an advantage when a Knight/Warrior always gets the first hit, and probably the second as well. Saying "well you should be focusing on getting them out of your face" is somewhat silly, at least for Mercs/Commandos since the bloody thing roots as well, and we aren't known for our kiting abilities.

 

On the otherhand commando is so broken in PVP that I'd rather they fix other issues first. Actual fixes that DO address the massive weaknesses of the class might render this change irrelevent, and in certain PVE encounters the interrupt serves a valuable purpose.

[Darth_Acherus]

Balance Shadows would like to have a serious word with you on this.

 

Balance shadows don't count!

[Scathe]

Speaking as someone who plays a Marauder in pvp, this is easily countered. Sorc/Sage's get a knockback, a root to go along with that knockback, and a slow. Force Charge is on a 15s cooldown (I think, could be wrong since I don't have the game up) so really to get a Warrior/Knight who isn't specced into lolderpsmash out of your face would go something like this.

 

Overload/Consular Knockback(Can't remember the name) > Slow > Cast. Or Knockback > Stun > Slow > Cast. Like I said, if they aren't lolderpsmash then they can't use a second charge, and even that charge doesn't have as long of a range as Charge.

 

I'm not sure about Merc/Commando's, but their armor and endurance talent buffs give them some decent survivability, and in my experience they also get some pretty decent defensive cooldowns that help them take less damage. The only issue that a Commando/Merc would have if is the attacking Warrior/Knight is on top of their interrupts. But that's just my 2 cents.

[Smashbrother]

Speaking as someone who plays a Marauder in pvp, this is easily countered. Sorc/Sage's get a knockback, a root to go along with that knockback, and a slow. Force Charge is on a 15s cooldown (I think, could be wrong since I don't have the game up) so really to get a Warrior/Knight who isn't specced into lolderpsmash out of your face would go something like this.

 

Overload/Consular Knockback(Can't remember the name) > Slow > Cast. Or Knockback > Stun > Slow > Cast. Like I said, if they aren't lolderpsmash then they can't use a second charge, and even that charge doesn't have as long of a range as Charge.

 

I'm not sure about Merc/Commando's, but their armor and endurance talent buffs give them some decent survivability, and in my experience they also get some pretty decent defensive cooldowns that help them take less damage. The only issue that a Commando/Merc would have if is the attacking Warrior/Knight is on top of their interrupts. But that's just my 2 cents.

 

It's not so simple as that. Maras have camo to get back into range as well. Choke also works since sage knockbacks don't knock you farther than 10m away. Sage KB root is also talented, so not all has it. Sage keeping ranged away to avoid interrupts is ok for the most part. I can do it on my sage. Commandos however need much love.

 

Also, I'm not in favor of taking away the interrupt of leap because I love it on my guardian and mara.

[Scathe]

It's not so simple as that. Maras have camo to get back into range as well. Choke also works since sage knockbacks don't knock you farther than 10m away. Sage KB root is also talented, so not all has it. Sage keeping ranged away to avoid interrupts is ok for the most part. I can do it on my sage. Commandos however need much love.

 

Also, I'm not in favor of taking away the interrupt of leap because I love it on my guardian and mara.

 

True, but Camo's root remover is also a talented ability, so if you don't spec into it you still get the full effect. So if you're not Carnage then you don't get the talent, and personally I don't like Carnage for pvp so I play Annihilation. You could use predation, but that would be kind of a waste of Fury/Focus when your Bloodthirst and Beserk would be a better choice. Choke could work, but that is also interruptable and if the Sage/Sorc is smart, they can use Stun or Lift and then back up a couple of steps, casting Slow while they move since it's an instant cast, this gives time for them to get off a couple of casts. I have yet to see a Sage/Sorc without the KB root since it's easier to get then the bubble stun. At least in Jedi Covenant it seems I run into more KB roots then I do bubble stuns.

 

There's also the slow that Affliction can apply onto a target if a Sorc/Sage healer specs into it, and I don't see a reason why you wouldn't for pvp. Also, looking at TORhead now and the specs, Madness Sorc/Sage's get plenty of stuns and slows. It honestly is easy if you are a good Sage/Sorc and know what you are doing and can pull off everything in time. You may sacrifice certain abilities to get others if you play around with it, but really it just depends on how you move.

[AdmiralParmesan]

True, but Camo's root remover is also a talented ability, so if you don't spec into it you still get the full effect. So if you're not Carnage then you don't get the talent, and personally I don't like Carnage for pvp so I play Annihilation. You could use predation, but that would be kind of a waste of Fury/Focus when your Bloodthirst and Beserk would be a better choice. Choke could work, but that is also interruptable and if the Sage/Sorc is smart, they can use Stun or Lift and then back up a couple of steps, casting Slow while they move since it's an instant cast, this gives time for them to get off a couple of casts. I have yet to see a Sage/Sorc without the KB root since it's easier to get then the bubble stun. At least in Jedi Covenant it seems I run into more KB roots then I do bubble stuns.

 

There's also the slow that Affliction can apply onto a target if a Sorc/Sage healer specs into it, and I don't see a reason why you wouldn't for pvp. Also, looking at TORhead now and the specs, Madness Sorc/Sage's get plenty of stuns and slows. It honestly is easy if you are a good Sage/Sorc and know what you are doing and can pull off everything in time. You may sacrifice certain abilities to get others if you play around with it, but really it just depends on how you move.

 

You don't spec for the slow on affliction because its a short duration and its only 20% slow which is nothing and a waste of 2 points. A sorc/sage gets 1 root at any given time, force slow (longer cooldown than the assassin variation) the weakest knockback in game and electrocute within 10 meters. Whirlwind is a 2 second cast and only stuns if you are halfway up the madness tree; using whirlwind as a two second stun almost full resolves a target and won't stun at all if the mezz causes them to reach full resolve. So in reality yes, the Sorc/Sage tools are enough to kite one non assassin or Operative, but in a group setting having even one more enemy join in the fight will make kiting impossible. However Sages/Sorcs do not do any real damage while kiting, and kiting is the only option. On the mercenary side their mitigation is slightly better, but the option of kiting is barely even there. Most classes have multiple ways to stop casting too, whether it be stealth, a mez, stun or interrupt. People act is if LOS is the answer to ranged woes, but its not. LOS is utilizable by anyone and harms ranged just as LOS can harm melee.

 

Try playing an arsenal merc or full lightning spec sorc in pvp. Its not easy and certainly not rewarding. Force charge is on 15 second cooldown, and the interupt is on a 5 second cooldown if im not mistaken (its been a bit since i've played my jugg) There are a tons ways for melee to stop ranged from casting but very few ways to get casts off as a ranged class thats not a sniper. This situation is made worse in an environment where every class has an interrupt. I can not tell you how many times I've set up a cast of Thundering blast on my sorc by kiting (2 second cast move, guaranteed crit if the target has affliction up) only for force charge to come off cooldown within that cast and to be interupted anyway. Its not even like the move is particularly deadly as it only does 3.6 to 4k on crit. If the regular interrupts in this game were affected by global cooldown that would be one thing, but they aren't. Instead you as melee loose no damage for interrupting and the ranged class lost all theoretical damage they could have had within that cast period. This causes a situation where melee can shutdown ranged classes without loosing damage and ranged can do no real damage in return.

 

Honestly this nerf would be a buff at skillcap for Marauders and Juggernauts because it would give you the option to manually interrupt after force charge instead of the auto interrupt. This would put the casted spell on cooldown and make said classes think more about what they were interrupting.

[AdmiralParmesan]

It seems people on this fourm are only interested in complaining and trolling. None of the threads talking about actually trying to balance pvp fairly seem to stay up for very long

[Hairyzac]

whirlwind is a 3s cast for me before alacrity. i wish it was 2 seconds.

 

and edit: i don't have a problem with this change but i think it caters to a very specific minority and doubt any jugg or mara will agree with this change.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Hairyzac

[Lexlo]

It seems people on this fourm are only interested in complaining and trolling. None of the threads talking about actually trying to balance pvp fairly seem to stay up for very long

 

Well the problem is that they don't plan on re-balancing anything until the level cap increase. Which is due in Spring (and I believe it will arrive some time in April). That's still a while away.

 

 

It's not like they've taken our ideas into consideration anyway. The Devs seem to balance this game around PvE.

[AdmiralParmesan]

It does cater to a very small minority, the minority that is mercenaries/commandos and Sorcs/Sages which have become a minority in pvp due to their problems. Force charge creates large amounts of problems for these classes trying to cast.

 

Here is the most typical situation full lightning spec runs into.

 

Marauder/Juggernaut attacks you. As full lightning you cast affliction because you need the dot on the target to set up any real damage. You can't stay in melee range so you cast overload to knock them away and root them, at this point you assume you can cast. Overload doesn't knock people very far at all so you are relying on the root to get off crushing darkness or thundering blast to damage the target.

 

Simple enough right?

 

No. With a 1.5 second global you only have about 1.4 seconds to cast before the root will break from your own DOT which you need to do damage in the first place. Sadly lightning strike is the only 1.5 second cast we have and it does almost no damage. So if you cast thundering blast or crushing darkness in this situation you are almost guaranteed to be interrupted by force charge if they have it up, effectively wasting your knock-back. Even if they don't have force charge they should still be close enough in range to use force chock, or if they are rage spec they can use obliterate to get in close as a force charge substitute. This is not to mention specific advanced class cool-downs available to also stop the cast such as force push and force camo.

 

The amount of options melee in this game have compared to non sniper ranged classes is just ridiculous.

[Sleprock]

Oh lets just remove all slows, interrupts, mezzes, roots, and stuns to have a good ole' fashioned Super Smash Bros brawl. Let's just see who can put out the most DAMAGE, damage, damage to crown the winner! We don't want strategy, we just want moar moar MOAR! zergfests.

[Hairyzac]

Well the problem is that they don't plan on re-balancing anything until the level cap increase. Which is due in Spring (and I believe it will arrive some time in April). That's still a while away.

 

 

It's not like they've taken our ideas into consideration anyway. The Devs seem to balance this game around PvE.

 

They actually said they are doing a chunk of balancing in the next major patch. So unless the next major patch is in the spring, we should see some balancing in 4-6 weeks.

[ripamorame]

It does cater to a very small minority, the minority that is mercenaries/commandos and Sorcs/Sages which have become a minority in pvp due to their problems. Force charge creates large amounts of problems for these classes trying to cast.

 

Here is the most typical situation full lightning spec runs into.

 

Marauder/Juggernaut attacks you. As full lightning you cast affliction because you need the dot on the target to set up any real damage. You can't stay in melee range so you cast overload to knock them away and root them, at this point you assume you can cast. Overload doesn't knock people very far at all so you are relying on the root to get off crushing darkness or thundering blast to damage the target.

 

Simple enough right?

 

No. With a 1.5 second global you only have about 1.4 seconds to cast before the root will break from your own DOT which you need to do damage in the first place. Sadly lightning strike is the only 1.5 second cast we have and it does almost no damage. So if you cast thundering blast or crushing darkness in this situation you are almost guaranteed to be interrupted by force charge if they have it up, effectively wasting your knock-back. Even if they don't have force charge they should still be close enough in range to use force chock, or if they are rage spec they can use obliterate to get in close as a force charge substitute. This is not to mention specific advanced class cool-downs available to also stop the cast such as force push and force camo.

 

The amount of options melee in this game have compared to non sniper ranged classes is just ridiculous.

I agree from what i see from my sages point of view melee is highly favored in pvp. The only class i can say i can beat without pulling every trick out of the bag is a merc every other class is very difficult i personally think especially with snipers and warriors etc a 10m addition to sages/sorc stun range would help us a great deal or maybe a talent where interrupt reduces force slows cd or force speed or just a plain old defensive cool down. The list of my counts goes Marauders, Juggs, Assasins, Powertechs, Snipers, Operatives, Getting opened on for 5-6k then getting interrupted followed by a stun is very hard to come out of with a stun, 10m kb, shield and speed a 3k instant heal and if i use half of these and start casting the class will be back on top of me. And don't give me use the slow bs as half of these classes will have one on me already we have 0 ways to mitigate burst damage. Or give every build alacrity.

[Hairyzac]

Oh lets just remove all slows, interrupts, mezzes, roots, and stuns to have a good ole' fashioned Super Smash Bros brawl. Let's just see who can put out the most DAMAGE, damage, damage to crown the winner! We don't want strategy, we just want moar moar MOAR! zergfests.

 

I don't think that is what he wants. But I feel a better change would be to the Lightning spec in general instead of nerfing knights/warriors leap, causing them to cry until the earth ends (which I heard is not far away lol). I don't know much about the spec but from reading the complaints, it would help to make it a faster cast. Or make it not 100% reliant on having Affliction up and your target to be rooted for you to get off your cast. And this doesn't even work according to Admiralparm b/c the root just breaks from his dot. So BW should really look into some sort of fix one way or another.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Hairyzac

[UGLYMRJ]

Just in case I haven't already commented on this thread....

 

NO.

[Knockerz]

A better solution is to just give sages and mercs a new ability that grants immunity from charge, pulls, or knockbacks, but that only last a few seconds like the snipers ability. I would also put this new ability in their respective high end trees so that no healing hybrid can acquire said ability. This will allow casting sages and mercs the ability to dps without being on a interrupt train or being knock back. Edited December 21, 2012 by Knockerz

[AdmiralParmesan]

I mean Sorcs/Sage are even far behind in the PVE dps department. Having to work incredibly hard just to get a cast off that doensn't do much damage in the first place is highly disappointing.

 

Lets look at thundering blast

 

1.5 second global to put affliction up, 2 second cast to do the move. Does anywhere between 3.6 to 4k critical damage on average. At least 3.5 seconds of setup for a move thats damage can be stopped by either removing the DOT, stopping the cast or LOS. Hardly intimidating

 

Most classes have moves with no cast time that hit much harder than this, and its certainly not their 31 point talent. If full lightning can barely outpace full madness pve due to mobility and casting restrictions and full lightning is already 10% or more behind top tier dps; what does that say about the class? If you can't get casts off to begin with and you already behind classes that do more damage and have better options defensively and offensively it serves no purpose in pvp.

 

And its not like full madness is any better, while it can actually kite it has no regen mechanic and no way to get force back. This alone could be over looked if not for the fact full madness also has no burst and equally low mitigation.

 

 

To put it shortly our best defensive cooldown is force speed, which is stopped by any root, mez, stun or even knock-back at times. Some real class changes need to occur but it doesn't look like this will happen to whenever this expansion comes out in "spring"

-not that bioware is exactly known for releasing content on time

Edited December 21, 2012 by AdmiralParmesan

[ArchangelLBC]

I'm not sure about Merc/Commando's, but their armor and endurance talent buffs give them some decent survivability, and in my experience they also get some pretty decent defensive cooldowns that help them take less damage. The only issue that a Commando/Merc would have if is the attacking Warrior/Knight is on top of their interrupts. But that's just my 2 cents.

 

Sorry dude, but you really REALLY shouldn't talk about merc/commando. Their armor and endurance talent buffs don't add up to squat, really. The only spec that has any semblence of non squishiness in PVP is the Healing Tree. The DPS trees are glass pea shooters.