New Shinarika Shadow / Assassin PvP Video.

[Xinika]

It will never get nerfed because Bioware has no clue about game balance. This is what happens in a game of specialist classes when we get a class that is good for basically everything.

Jack of all trades and excel truly at nothing. Generalists, by default will have a more defined and solid spot.

 

 

If only assassins were good at 1vs1 only. I would be ok with that. You see, when you take these individual aspects, 1vs1, mission objectives, CC alone they all feel pretty balanced. But it's the sum of all these that make the assassin a broken class. And it's broken from its very core, the design concept behind the class is stupid.

 

When you create a class, first of all you say what do you want to be good at and what vulnerabilities should it have. If i will ask you who is the hard or at least soft counter to assasin, you will not know what to say, because you probably feel that you can best most of them. And in the end, what does it matter if the assassin could not kill that ultra powerful marauder or juggernaut, it's not that he can actually hunt you down with you force cloaking away from him.

I'm sorry we're average at best in everything we do, but that's obviously something that is absurd and too much.

 

I am completely ok for them to hard counter me as a sniper, no problem with that, after all, i hard counter melee my self, but being so good at doing WZ objectives on top of that.. come on.

Where on earth is this logic coming from? I'm honestly baffled. Shadows have one predominant niche at best - node defending and yet that is too much?

 

Seriously with these posts? They are outrageously biased and clouded in judgment.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Xinika

[ScrubinMuhTub]

I have not tried this spec out yet, but it seems to be lacking in DPS? Can you give me more information on it?

Its rotation, technique, gear setup etc.

 

Alright, here's my attempt at information:

 

23/17/1 (you can put the 1 in reduced damage or 3% increased crit to melee)

 

The spec is played as a tank in full dps gear. I wear a shield generator with dps mods in it. This gives me a rough exchange of 200 power for a substantial chance to shield for 20% reduced white damage. For set bonuses, I switched from 4p stalker to 4p survivor, but have considered 2p/2p survivor (pve/pvp). The reduced cooldown to kick is a great addition for peeling as well as huttball.

 

You are right in observing that the dps is low/lower than other specs, but while it is lower, I gain the largest amount of surivivability of any of the other specs, rocking out 19% elemental damage reduction (with buffs), high armor, -30% damage to aoe, and on demand 25% damage reduction that I can string out for 18 seconds or so.

 

As to what the rotation is, generally speaking it is similar to 23/1/17, with a much heavier reliance on shadow strike. The spec is ran in Combat Technique, not shadow, and those two points you might question allow shadow strike to hit for 4k-6k depending on target. Given that shadow strike is a key component of the burst damage in this spec, I wear 40% crit rating, and reduced my surge from 79% to 75% in order to pick up a reasonable amount of melee accuracy. Missing a shadow strike = zero damage, although missing doesn't consume your reduced energy cost buff.

 

This is a wonderful node guarder, a viable carry in huttball (I would still throw to a jug, however), and a spectacular healer guarder, which I primarily played the spec as. It does not shine as a lone wolf burst class, as the burst is quite small (4-8k every 6 seconds). Energy management is only poor if you neglect to shadow strike during procs only, as with blackout on top of the extra force regen from KC, there are on demand periods of force regeneration that are difficult to gobble up.

 

I hope that is enough information for you. I wasn't really expecting to give my perspective on it to someone who has the level of knowledge you do for the class. Hope you finished reading the text.

[Xinika]

Alright, here's my attempt at information:

 

23/17/1 (you can put the 1 in reduced damage or 3% increased crit to melee)

 

The spec is played as a tank in full dps gear. I wear a shield generator with dps mods in it. This gives me a rough exchange of 200 power for a substantial chance to shield for 20% reduced white damage. For set bonuses, I switched from 4p stalker to 4p survivor, but have considered 2p/2p survivor (pve/pvp). The reduced cooldown to kick is a great addition for peeling as well as huttball.

 

You are right in observing that the dps is low/lower than other specs, but while it is lower, I gain the largest amount of surivivability of any of the other specs, rocking out 19% elemental damage reduction (with buffs), high armor, -30% damage to aoe, and on demand 25% damage reduction that I can string out for 18 seconds or so.

 

As to what the rotation is, generally speaking it is similar to 23/1/17, with a much heavier reliance on shadow strike. The spec is ran in Combat Technique, not shadow, and those two points you might question allow shadow strike to hit for 4k-6k depending on target. Given that shadow strike is a key component of the burst damage in this spec, I wear 40% crit rating, and reduced my surge from 79% to 75% in order to pick up a reasonable amount of melee accuracy. Missing a shadow strike = zero damage, although missing doesn't consume your reduced energy cost buff.

 

This is a wonderful node guarder, a viable carry in huttball (I would still throw to a jug, however), and a spectacular healer guarder, which I primarily played the spec as. It does not shine as a lone wolf burst class, as the burst is quite small (4-8k every 6 seconds). Energy management is only poor if you neglect to shadow strike during procs only, as with blackout on top of the extra force regen from KC, there are on demand periods of force regeneration that are difficult to gobble up.

I see, interesting. I'll give it a run.

 

I hope that is enough information for you. I wasn't really expecting to give my perspective on it to someone who has the level of knowledge you do for the class. Hope you finished reading the text.

Why not? There will never be a point where I know-it-all. I am always learning and improving. There's no cut off point for me and it shouldn't be that way for anyone either.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Xinika

[NoTomorrow]

Jack of all trades and excel truly at nothing. Generalists, by default will have a more defined and solid spot.

 

 

 

How on earth are Shadows 'the best' at doing WZ objectives? I'm honestly baffled at this logic. We have one niche at best - node defending, yet that's too much?

 

I'm sorry but how clouded and biased are these posts in all honesty?

 

A jug tank on huttball is of course a wonderful class, but please don't tell me that you haven't won lots of hutball matches with the help of your assassin alone. No matter where you look in assassin trees there are always questionable things. Just an example: why are assassins allowed to force speed while cloaked? Why? What is it so damn critical about the class viability to be able to do that while cloaked? Cloak itself is one of the best abilities to have in pvp.

 

Why does the assassin need to have a root cleanse in tanking tree with force speed? Roots are often the last line of defense from stoping a score in huttball, why give them this? Why remove a class vulenerability?

 

Why lethality a spec that is supposed to hard counter tanks in the game (because frankly speaking it is not good at anything else) has to have all its dots whiped out with a single force shroud?

 

Why is assassin allowed to pop-up at the same time force shroud and deflection? Why give them 100% immunity to stuns, mezzes, all force and tech attacks and allow them to deflect 50% of white attacks? And that is not only 50% ranged/melee protection because you have extra defense anyway.

 

What the hell is with all this CC and the ridiculous cooldowns of it? 15s CD low slash anyone? I am not talking about 31/31/31 spec here, but why the hell would an infiltration shadow need that? Did developers intend for him to be able to reliably take on 1vs2, so that he could quick access to CCing one of them?

 

Or here is another one: just look at the nerve wracking skill alone. Why is it necessary for a stunned target that cannot do crap to take EXTRA DAMAGE?

 

On one side we have highly specialized specs like concealment, that are not universally good at everythig, that are balanced and can be countered, on the other side we have assassins.

Edited December 18, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[Xinika]

A jug tank on huttball is of course a wonderful class, but please don't tell me that you haven't won lots of hutball matches with the help of your assassin alone. No matter where you look in assassin trees there are always questionable things. Just an example: why are assassins allowed to force speed while cloaked? Why? What is it so damn critical about the class viability to be able to do that while cloaked? Cloak itself is one of the best abilities to have in pvp.

 

Why does the assassin need to have a root cleanse in tanking tree with force speed? Roots are often the last line of defense from stoping a score in huttball, why give them this? Why remove a class vulenerability?

 

Why lethality a spec that is supposed to hard counter tanks in the game (because frankly speaking it is not good at anything else) has to have all its dots whiped out with a single force shroud?

 

Why is assassin allowed to pop-up at the same time force shroud and deflection? Why give them 100% immunity to stuns, mezzes, all force and tech attacks and allow them to deflect 50% of white attacks? And that is not only 50% ranged/melee protection because you have extra defense anyway.

 

What the hell is with all this CC and the ridiculous cooldowns of it? 15s CD low slash anyone? I am not talking about 31/31/31 spec here, but why the hell would an infiltration shadow need that? Did developers intend for him to be able to reliably take on 1vs2, so that he could quick access to CCing one of them?

 

Or here is another one: just look at the nerve wracking skill alone. Why is it necessary for a stunned target that cannot do crap to take EXTRA DAMAGE?

 

On one side we have highly specialized specs like concealment, that are not universally good at everythig, that are balanced and can be countered, on the other side we have assassins.

Again, your post is extremely biased. Your argument is based on the benefits of an assassin without even bringing up the negatives.

 

One could respond to your post with various comparisons to other classes that do many of the things you called out - better, but it would be pointless and unproductive.

 

Heaven forbid a stealth class has a re-enter stealth ability and I must admit, that's a new one - Using force speed in cloak.

 

And Low Slash. Really? Well, BW better get on it! Nerf those Assassin abominations to hell and back.

They are obviously insanely broken.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Xinika

[NoTomorrow]

Maras will get nerfed, Sorcs will get nerfed but those classes even in current version of the game are having big trouble with certain classes. You? Talk about weaknesses? What weaknesses, when you most of the time you will have a counter-action to many many things other classes can throw at you?

 

Please enlighten me, and tell me about those moments when you felt like there was nothing you could do or somebody exploited your weaknesses? I suspect most of your deaths in pvp, if there are any, are simply from big zerg where nobody else could do anything either.

Edited December 18, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[Xinika]

Maras will get nerfed, Sorcs will get nerfed but those classes even in current version of the game are having big trouble with certain classes. You? Talk about weaknesses? What weaknesses, when you most of the time you will have a counter-action to many many things other classes can throw at you?

So I've come to the realization that you may have lost a 1v1 to an Assassin and this undoubtedly makes them broken.

Yay or Nay?

[NoTomorrow]

So I've come to the realization that you may have lost a 1v1 to an Assassin and this undoubtedly makes them broken.

Yay or Nay?

 

I lost many duels and not only to assassins. I've beaten many classes and assassins were among them as well. As I said, their individual performance may give everyone the feeling that these guys are balanced, but it's the sum of all abilities and talentes, the extreme synergy of it all, that no other class can remotely dream of with which i do not agree as a core design concept.

 

What do you as an assassin fear in pvp? The sad thing is, you will try to make it as it is your skill that carries you on, no doubt you are skilled, nobody is taking that from you, but a good chunk of all that success is the synergy of the tools that the assassin has. It's a jack of all trades, but it's not a master of none, it's a very very powerful class.

Edited December 18, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[Xinika]

I lost many duels and not only to assassins. I've beaten many classes and assassins were among them as well. As I said, their individual performance may give everyone the feeling that these guys are balanced, but it's the sum of all abilities and talentes, the extreme synergy of it all, that no other class can remotely dream of with which i do not agree as a core design concept.

I do not agree but you are entitled to your opinion and I will leave it at that.

[NoTomorrow]

I do not agree but you are entitled to your opinion and I will leave it at that.

 

Fair enough, i only wanted to read to your opinion about what you feel that the assassin weaknesses are and how would you deal with them if you played any other class.

[Okema]

There is this operative concealer on my server. If he finds me he can take almost 30-40% of my health away when he opens up on me. You are really looking at this from the wrong side. It's not the assassin that needs a nerf, it's clearly the op that needs it. I mean come on, that opener seriously? Then he can restealth and do the same again? And then a speed buff to dance around you like fecking Muhammad Ali? And if worse comes to worse, he will just sap/stun you and heal up while being still in combat. Can you believe that? I mean come on, that's too much utility, really.

From my above obversations I can clearly say there is no weakness to the class, so I don't even have to try to look out for them and work on plans on how to counter them.

 

Ohh, and I'm glad you mentioned low slash. Totally overpowered skill, I mean god forbid infil shadows to have any up-time on their opponents as a pure melee spec.

 

Keep it up, maybe you can proudly say from yourself that you got rid off shadows/assassins completely of any competetive play one day, as they won't have any reasons left to be part of a competetive team.

Just be careful that once you achieved it, that no one finds out about the true capability of concealers.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Okema

[RankorSSGS]

This has nothing to do with that build.

This build is using lightning while the "Arika" build's using the surging charge.

This build is based on dots while the Arika one isn't.

 

How about actually reading what I wrote, hmm? Blasphemy on these forums I know. I am not talking about the old Arika build, I am talking about Mad Maul, which does use lightning charge, and is a DoT spec. I only brought up the Arika build because the distribution of points is similar to Mad Maul.

 

Oh, and @Shin about 23/17/1. It runs in Combat Technique, and basically is focused on getting the utility and survivability from the tank tree, while also getting the kind of pop in and out of stealth burst style gameplay of Infiltration. The lower Infil points give the spec the big Shadow Strike hits, and the reduced cooldowns on Cloak. The changes to Masked Assault also make it a very tough spec, probably the tankiest spec available. For this reason it's a pretty decent ballcarrying spec, but still just a wannabe Guardian for that. Some people swear by the spec, but I along with many others just see it as a bit of a gimp spec, trying to do everything while succeeding at nothing. It lacks the Balance utility of 23/1/17, and while big SS's and tankiness are nice, I just feel its not worth giving up the other stuff. Fun in regular games sure, but what spec isn't?

 

LOL at all the kids crying about shadows being OP. The class isn't wanted for competitive pvp at all outside of standing half afk node guarding the whole game. The class excels at 1v1 duel type play, which it should, but it's a niche that can be ignored very easily. For any other dps roles, Pyro's and smashers will always do the job better.

Edited December 18, 2012 by RankorSSGS

[Xinika]

Fair enough, i only wanted to read to your opinion about what you feel that the assassin weaknesses are and how would you deal with them if you played any other class.

 

Strengths:

- Ability to chose their fights

- Great versatility

- Can be highly creative

- Has an answer to just about any situation

 

Neutral:

- Average damage

 

Weaknesses:

- Doesn't excel in any specific area

- Heavy reliance on CDs

- Full 31/x/x builds tend to be lackluster

 

What I'm getting at is that the Shadow tends to be flavoured moreso for small scale encounters than large scale encounters - where the true PvP really matters. This is why, it's best to leave a Shadow on a node because they can handle themselves. However, in a group based smash-em up action, a guardian, sent or VG would be a wiser choice because they are meant for direct battle.

 

Point is this: Assassins and Shadows are very average. They are not spectacular and they're not horrible either. This doesn't mean that they aren't fun. In short: BW did a great job in creating this class. It is completely unique and I've never played anything like it elsewhere. I see no reason to nerf a class that is performing quite balanced at the given moment.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Xinika

[ArchangelLBC]

Fair enough, i only wanted to read to your opinion about what you feel that the assassin weaknesses are and how would you deal with them if you played any other class.

 

Like Xinika said, while the class is great in small scale encounters, in the middle of the zerg you're lackluster at best. I'd put a really good Assault Vanguard on them. They'll burst them down hard and fast most of the time.

 

Also the difference between a really good shadow and a mediocre shadow is pretty night and day.

[Leafy_Bug]

Good to see that people are starting to distinguish between 1 v 1 and what really matters in PVP. Those who still cry nerfs when it comes to shadows have really no clue what they are talking about.

[Xinika]

Oh, and @Shin about 23/17/1. It runs in Combat Technique, and basically is focused on getting the utility and survivability from the tank tree, while also getting the kind of pop in and out of stealth burst style gameplay of Infiltration. The lower Infil points give the spec the big Shadow Strike hits, and the reduced cooldowns on Cloak. The changes to Masked Assault also make it a very tough spec, probably the tankiest spec available. For this reason it's a pretty decent ballcarrying spec, but still just a wannabe Guardian for that. Some people swear by the spec, but I along with many others just see it as a bit of a gimp spec, trying to do everything while succeeding at nothing. It lacks the Balance utility of 23/1/17, and while big SS's and tankiness are nice, I just feel its not worth giving up the other stuff. Fun in regular games sure, but what spec isn't?

 

I've noticed that this spec is arguably one of the tankiest specs I've encountered due to Blackout. Indeed, feels like a gimped guardian but actually not that bad for solo play. No FiB does hurt though. Nevertheless, it's not an entirely bad spec but there are others that can outperform it in its ventures.

[Andrew_Past]

Shin, have you tried a full Balance spec such as: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/Shadow#0-ck3-1fe72e6f2f ? I have tried a lot of hybrid specs, but always find the damage lacking compared to full Balance. With this spec, I stay extremely mobile and have a ton of tools that can be used for both kiting and anti-kiting. It also is a decently survivable Balance spec. Though, not having Blackout as a defensive hurts at times.

 

Btw, I still get near 5.2-5.8 shadow strikes, with a few 6k+. My FIB also hits for 4-4.5k with a few 5ks.

[Xinika]

Shin, have you tried a full Balance spec such as: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/Shadow#0-ck3-1fe72e6f2f ? I have tried a lot of hybrid specs, but always find the damage lacking compared to full Balance. With this spec, I stay extremely mobile and have a ton of tools that can be used for both kiting and anti-kiting. It also is a decently survivable Balance spec. Though, not having Blackout as a defensive hurts at times.

 

Btw, I still get near 5.2-5.8 shadow strikes, with a few 6k+. My FIB also hits for 4-4.5k with a few 5ks.

 

I mean, I have played the 'full' specs longer than I have played the hybrid specs. There's a 4/14/18 spec for example, that can do more damage output than full Balance but requires more player attention.

[Naader]

Have you posted a video yet regarding the 17/1/23 spec?

[Xinika]

Have you posted a video yet regarding the 17/1/23 spec?

This weekend. It's a really large tutorial video. Arguably the biggest I've done to date, hence the time it's taken thus far.

[Asunasan]

I'm sorry this is getting ridiculous, SHADOWS are complaining about lack of utility in large scale fights?DPS ops would like to have a word with you. You are the best 1v1 class (outside of healing ops that will never actually take a node) and you are MUCH more useful than us in group combat.

 

So I'm with the sniper on this one. Tell me what your non healer counter class is in 1v1s and then you are allowed to be a jack of all trades. But you can't be the king of 1v1s and above average utility wise in group combat. You aren't a jack of all trades master of none, you're instead a jack of all trades master of 1v1s.

[Xinika]

I'm sorry this is getting ridiculous, SHADOWS are complaining about lack of utility in large scale fights?DPS ops would like to have a word with you. You are the best 1v1 class (outside of healing ops that will never actually take a node) and you are MUCH more useful than us in group combat.

 

So I'm with the sniper on this one. Tell me what your non healer counter class is in 1v1s and then you are allowed to be a jack of all trades. But you can't be the king of 1v1s and above average utility wise in group combat. You aren't a jack of all trades master of none, you're instead a jack of all trades master of 1v1s.

 

Ranked is based off 1v1 I heard.

[Asunasan]

Ranked is based off 1v1 I heard.

 

You know what? You're absolutely 1v1s couldn't possibly be relevant to a stealth based class. I mean its not like they ever have to stall for time at off nodes, win fights to take off nodes in a pinch, or force other teams to bring a second defender (since the shadow will win the 1v1) lightening the contested node enough that a wipe can actually happen.

 

But if we go with the idea that 1v1s don't matter in ranked warzones lets compare stealth classes. Oh, wait, the shadow is better than the dps scoundrel in both small scale and large scale encounters in ranked even though the scrapper niche is specifically supposed to be small scale encounters. So if shadows aren't OP, and I"m not 100% convinced they are, you will at least concede that DPS scoundrels need to be buffed to the point at which they consistently beat shadows in 1v1s or 2v2s?

[Xinika]

You know what? You're absolutely 1v1s couldn't possibly be relevant to a stealth based class. I mean its not like they ever have to stall for time at off nodes, win fights to take off nodes in a pinch, or force other teams to bring a second defender (since the shadow will win the 1v1) lightening the contested node enough that a wipe can actually happen.

Good luck having that 1v1 mentality in Ranked or other competitive matches. Leaving one person to defend or attack for elongated periods, even if they're the best 1v1er in game, is a plain strategy flaw.

 

But if we go with the idea that 1v1s don't matter in ranked warzones lets compare stealth classes. Oh, wait, the shadow is better than the dps scoundrel in both small scale and large scale encounters in ranked even though the scrapper niche is specifically supposed to be small scale encounters. So if shadows aren't OP, and I"m not 100% convinced they are, you will at least concede that DPS scoundrels need to be buffed to the point at which they consistently beat shadows in 1v1s or 2v2s?

Your post is horrendously biased. It spews against Assassins specifically. DPS Operatives need buffs, preferably to DF than Scrapper. (Infil got buffs and does it have a spot in ranked yet? Nay.) But not for the sole reason of matching or 1v1ing Assassins.

 

It's a horrible comparison. Operatives philosophy is a different setting. They are based around heals and cleansing. If this were the case, according to your logic, Shadows should be buffed to perform on equal footing concerning their healing factor.

 

I feel no remorse for DPS Operatives. You can use a buff here and there, but don't think for one moment that I'll feel pity for the tree when Sawbones is such a potent and arguably the best healer spec in game. If you wish to remain stuck to one tree then that is you - shooting yourself in your own foot.

 

Play your class, not a spec.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Xinika

[Asunasan]

Good luck having that 1v1 mentality in Ranked or other competitive matches. Leaving one person to defend or attack for elongated periods, even if they're the best 1v1er in game, is a plain strategy flaw.

 

 

Your post is horrendously biased. It spews against Assassins specifically. DPS Operatives need buffs, preferably to DF than Scrapper. (Infil got buffs and does it have a spot in ranked yet? Nay.) But not for the sole reason of matching or 1v1ing Assassins.

 

It's a horrible comparison. Operatives philosophy is a different setting. They are based around heals and cleansing. If this were the case, according to your logic, Shadows should be buffed to perform on equal footing concerning their healing factor.

 

I feel no remorse for DPS Operatives. You can use a buff here and there, but don't think for one moment that I'll feel pity for the tree when Sawbones is such a potent and arguably the best healer spec in game. If you wish to remain stuck to one tree then that is you - shooting yourself in your own foot.

 

Play your class, not a spec.

 

Not that its relevant, but I do play as heals and on the best team of our faction on the server. But I wasn't comparing 31/31/31 specs, funny that a shadow would be the one to do that to a scoundrel when they always complain that people do it to them. If you think our pitiful off heals as DPS spec though are as good as your ability to off taunt in a rated setting you aren't having an honest conversation. If your force speed alone doesn't give you more utility in a rated WZ than DPS scoundrels you aren't being honest. Oh and don't think for a movement I'll feel pity for shadows when there tank tree is arguably the best in the game (see what I did there?) As for the 1v1 mentality not working it is understandable that you don't see the value of every once in a while letting a 1v1 happen between extremely balanced teams because you need the 1 body advantage to take the contested node. You'll just have to take my word for it that its relevant if not common.

 

But I'll reword it so that it applicable more easily applied to ranked warzones in your mind. Shadows are jack of all trades master of node guarding. Better? You can argue that jack of all trades is balanced, you can't argue that jack of all trades but also best at one thing is balanced. And it doesn't have to be scrappers, that beat shadows if they are going to be jacks of all trades, but someone has to beat them, and it should probably be the other 1v1 class just because scrappers are so bad in group combat and shadows aren't.