Bubble Stun over-reaction

[Rincewend]

As I said in another thread it should be moved Higher in the lightning/telekinetic tree so hybrids cant take it.

 

Jenna'syyde

3-5-33 Balance Sage

7-3-31 Balance Sage

3-7-31 Balance Sage

11-18-12 Hybrid Sage

 

I saw that post too, and I think that could be a fix, but have they moved anything in a tree since launch? I know my Sorc and Sniper have had the points reset at least ounce since launch. I just wounder the impact on other tree items.

[rlamela]

while im not a big fan of the bubble stun people forget that that, and being a full healer(like myself) are the only ways to make sorc really worthwhile in pvp(unless your really good, overgeared and playing against bads...then anything is good)

 

Sounds like bioware is taking the sorcs side though, as they said any nerf to the bubble stun will come with a significant boost to sorc dps. Which would be great. This game needs more viable ranged in pvp.

 

Nothing wrong with our dps. Our problem has and always will be survivability. We need a real Defensive cooldown. And we need a baseline skill with a root attached to it. Force Lift needs to cleanse all dots from the target we put it on so that way it is actually useful. Otherwise everyone will continue to use their CC breaker on force stun knowing that force lift is useless once we dot them.

 

Jenna'syyde

3-5-33 Balance Sage

7-3-31 Balance Sage

3-7-31 Balance Sage

11-18-12 Hybrid Sage

Edited December 14, 2012 by rlamela

[-IceHawk-]

(Valor 60 – Fully Augmented Battle Master Sorc)

 

First, Static Barrier needs to be addressed.

The ability to click-off the stun at any point, let alone while the players are stunned themselves, is something I consider an unaddressed Game Bug. I fully expect this to be removed in 1.7.

 

It needs to go.

 

However, the stun itself (in its current iteration) is an absolute necessity in the current PVP environment. It should not be altered for the caster themselves and fortunately the Devs have made a statement in our forums indicating they realize this.

 

The Bubble-Spam issue however is emblematic of the tortured state of this AC.

Well before 1.2 hit, Sorcs realized that we had to run the CL-Wrath Hybrid because we had no truly viable PVP-DPS specs.

 

Afterwards, the Sorc population began to drop and we experimented with new builds for DPS.

Lightning is a non-starter in PVP, period. All of our offensive builds required a minimum 16-point (Wrath Proc) or 21-point (Deathmark) expenditure in Madness.

 

So, either you ran a 31-point Madness build or you ran the 1/12/28 hybrid.

Statistically, these two builds are within ~3% of each other for DPS (see, BW can balance builds!), therefore none present any major advantages.

 

Many of us experimented with a weird 0/20/21 or 0/21/20 to attain Chain Lightning on Proc again while, respectively, gaining Deathmark or Polarity shift.

 

Still, while we can build impressive aggregate damage totals due to the nature of our sustained-damaged trees we lack the burst-ability of other classes.

 

In a melee and burst intensive PVP-environment we are at a stark disadvantage due to our lack of front-loaded damage.

 

Consider for a moment how completely inadequate our DPS-trees must be if our most useful build is based around exploiting a bug to turn us into Crowd Control turrets.

 

Yes, Static Barrier needs to be altered and the stun needs to be addressed.

 

However, if your concern is for PVP balance and not your personal K/D ratios, then you must admit this AC needs serious attention (and possibly a re-design) for PVP-damage.

 

 

 

[Yes, good players can excel with this AC. I would like to think I am relatively successful myself. Your personal capability to perform well with a broken AC is not the point. Personally, I can handle Maras in 1-v-1, it is a matter of kiting. The point is we should not have to play our class perfectly in order to be competitive. ]

[Rincewend]

(Valor 60 – Fully Augmented Battle Master Sorc)

 

First, Static Barrier needs to be addressed.

The ability to click-off the stun at any point, let alone while the players are stunned themselves, is something I consider an unaddressed Game Bug. I fully expect this to be removed in 1.7.

 

It needs to go.

 

However, the stun itself (in its current iteration) is an absolute necessity in the current PVP environment. It should not be altered for the caster themselves and fortunately the Devs have made a statement in our forums indicating they realize this.

 

The Bubble-Spam issue however is emblematic of the tortured state of this AC.

Well before 1.2 hit, Sorcs realized that we had to run the CL-Wrath Hybrid because we had no truly viable PVP-DPS specs.

 

Afterwards, the Sorc population began to drop and we experimented with new builds for DPS.

Lightning is a non-starter in PVP, period. All of our offensive builds required a minimum 16-point (Wrath Proc) or 21-point (Deathmark) expenditure in Madness.

 

So, either you ran a 31-point Madness build or you ran the 1/12/28 hybrid.

Statistically, these two builds are within ~3% of each other for DPS (see, BW can balance builds!), therefore none present any major advantages.

 

Many of us experimented with a weird 0/20/21 or 0/21/20 to attain Chain Lightning on Proc again while, respectively, gaining Deathmark or Polarity shift.

 

Still, while we can build impressive aggregate damage totals due to the nature of our sustained-damaged trees we lack the burst-ability of other classes.

 

In a melee and burst intensive PVP-environment we are at a stark disadvantage due to our lack of front-loaded damage.

 

Consider for a moment how completely inadequate our DPS-trees must be if our most useful build is based around exploiting a bug to turn us into Crowd Control turrets.

 

Yes, Static Barrier needs to be altered and the stun needs to be addressed.

 

However, if your concern is for PVP balance and not your personal K/D ratios, then you must admit this AC needs serious attention (and possibly a re-design) for PVP-damage.

 

 

 

[Yes, good players can excel with this AC. I would like to think I am relatively successful myself. Your personal capability to perform well with a broken AC is not the point. Personally, I can handle Maras in 1-v-1, it is a matter of kiting. The point is we should not have to play our class perfectly in order to be competitive. ]

 

Well put IceHawk.

[lucianobck]

All sorc should use the build with stun bubble. Is the punishment for always use him as target.

[NogueiraA]

"stay on range and you'll be fine, L2P"...

 

Sorc bubbles a marauder -> marauder jumps on ranged classes -> ranged hit mara -> ranged stunned.

[Rincewend]

"stay on range and you'll be fine, L2P"...

 

Sorc bubbles a marauder -> marauder jumps on ranged classes -> ranged hit mara -> ranged stunned.

 

Lighting Sorc - Electrocute; force speed; pop bubble (this is provided my own bubble is not up for some reason; if it is let monkey pop it)

Sniper - should be in cover so jump not possible; pop bubble from range. If not in cover, than FB turn around move back, take cover; and blast them.

Merc - you have been hit by the nerf hammer so hard already lie down and die.

[Vladnar]

The only thing wrong with bubbles is the on-demand stun feature. make it impossible to manually burst and it is balanced.

 

Making it work on self-only will work if they put it in tier 2 in the middle tree or switch it to tier 4 in healing tree (instead of 20% snare on DoT sage healers currently get.)

Buffing DPS output/helping middle tree out in pvp viability is a given that should happen in the same patch that they nerf the bubble.

 

Sounds alright this, a little more healing and some extra damage for madness to but yeah this sounds good.

 

There does seem to be a misconception that all bubbles are going to stun you when they break? No problem people thinking that though, maybe thats why sometimes you get left alone.

 

People know too much about each others classes anyway lol

[Hairyzac]

while im not a big fan of the bubble stun people forget that that, and being a full healer(like myself) are the only ways to make sorc really worthwhile in pvp(unless your really good, overgeared and playing against bads...then anything is good)

 

Sounds like bioware is taking the sorcs side though, as they said any nerf to the bubble stun will come with a significant boost to sorc dps. Which would be great. This game needs more viable ranged in pvp.

 

Please post the link to where they said sorcerers are getting a significant boost to dps in conjunction with a bubble-stun nerf. Otherwise I call BS.

[Hairyzac]

As I said in another thread it should be moved Higher in the lightning/telekinetic tree so hybrids cant take it.

 

Jenna'syyde

3-5-33 Balance Sage

7-3-31 Balance Sage

3-7-31 Balance Sage

11-18-12 Hybrid Sage

 

That is the stupidest idea ever. People only play a corruption build, corruption hybrid, or madness hybrid on their sorc. By moving the talent deeper into the lightning tree, it becomes extinct just like spec'ing lightning for pvp is extinct.

 

These comments are just dumb at this point anyway. We now know they plan to make the bubble-stun self only. They will couple this with some kind of group utility buff for the sorcerer because this nerf will make people not want to bring sorcerers to competitive matches nearly as much. With the way dps sorcs, dps ops, and dps mercs are right now, they really can't afford to make another A/C and/or spec bottom of the barrel. Especially when there are so many that excel in the current environment (assassins, juggernauts, marauders, snipers, powertechs).

Edited December 14, 2012 by Hairyzac

[islander]

Oh but I can still faceroll and will continue playing smash until bubbles are dealt with. And I did admit that smash is broken as well and way overpowered. I actually prefer playing combat but bubbles make that incredibly frustrating to play. As I've said before, sages can keep their bubbles but what ruins warzones is that they can apply them to everyone on their team turning everything in a stunfest.

 

Well as long as everything is nerfed responsibly, and across the board, I'm OK with it.

 

My perspective is that this ability to apply stun bubbles is the ONLY reason we're ever invite to a quality rated team. When that changes, I'm more then happy to have this removed.

 

I pretty much do all unrateds though out of necessity ( finding an 8 man is so difficult for most of us), and honestly I run the madness hybrid most of the time because the DPSers are either really bad, or I happen to roll into a zone with 2-3 other healers who unlike me, contribute zero DPS even when the odds are in our favor. Whenever I see 2 other sorcs in my zone I cringe, because I realize again that it's probably going to be impractical trying to focus on bubbling the team with so many potential bubblers as well.

 

I mean, it's sad when, in a solo queued voidstar, I can heal 250-300k, do near 200k damage, and be like second in DPS total.

The trade off is lack of quality CC, I mean we can't have it all now can we

Edited December 14, 2012 by islander

[LarryRow]

There does seem to be a misconception that all bubbles are going to stun you when they break? No problem people thinking that though, maybe thats why sometimes you get left alone.

 

People know too much about each others classes anyway lol

 

I'm a little embarrassed to be asking this, but is there a way to tell if the bubble is a stun bubble? I mean, does it look any different or carry an extra/different buff on the bar?

[NoTomorrow]

I'm a little embarrassed to be asking this, but is there a way to tell if the bubble is a stun bubble? I mean, does it look any different or carry an extra/different buff on the bar?

 

it is as easy to discern as you guardians leaping with unremitting.

[LarryRow]

it is as easy to discern as you guardians leaping with unremitting.

 

So backlash appears on the buff bar? Or is that a crack about how guardians have a pale blue aura that is hard to see while Unstoppable is a bright red solar flare?

[Jadescythe]

So backlash appears on the buff bar? Or is that a crack about how guardians have a pale blue aura that is hard to see while Unstoppable is a bright red solar flare?

 

There is no way to tell when it comes to bubble pop. Unless you see one explode with the blind somewhere you have no way of knowing.

[LarryRow]

There is no way to tell when it comes to bubble pop. Unless you see one explode with the blind somewhere you have no way of knowing.

 

Then I feel like this is almost as bad as the other problems with bubble stun. I know I could use more work when it comes to checking out my targets buffs and debuffs, but top level players who do it should be able to tell if they need to gimp their dps and pop the bubble from range, or if they can unload their burst rotation.

[Ghost_Spectre]

That is the stupidest idea ever. People only play a corruption build, corruption hybrid, or madness hybrid on their sorc. By moving the talent deeper into the lightning tree, it becomes extinct just like spec'ing lightning for pvp is extinct.

 

Is it? That's news to me. I am fully spec'd Lightning with 2 points in madness for Will of the Sith granting 6% willpower increase. So is Rincewind as he posted (#48) in this thread. I'm not alone, either. 7 other sorcerers in my guild are spec'd lightning. I've run with a number of people in EoT whose Sorcerer were spec'd Lightning.

 

While this spec may not be as glorious as the smashers, brawling champion smugglers, or stealth spec'd Shadows/Assassins, I can do a lot of damage to multiple targets in a matter of seconds thanks to Lightning Storm, Chain Lightning, Forked lightning, and Conduction. Using Thundering Blast after hitting someone with Affliction (100% automatic critical) is a devastating attack as well. With Reverberating Force (+50% increase in critical damage by Affliction, Chain Lightning, and Thundering Blast) gives a Lightning spec’d Sorcerer a 150% increase in automatic critical damage with Thundering Blast.

 

Knowing when to use Lightning Storm on a crowd of engaged enemies that are melee range of my teammates can make the difference in a fight. When Chain Lightning procs, 5 targets are about to receive a whole lot of hurt. I may not get many solo kills; however, I do get a large number of killing blows thanks to knowing how to use my Sorcerer's powers.

 

It's not extinct, it's just not popular to use because people believe going hybrid Lightning/Madness is the best way to obtain high DPS for a higher kill ratio. I disagree with this thought. My Sorcerer is there to support the team, not take the lead in an assault. I play it that way. If I'm left alone I can generate an average of 270k in damage. Harassed, I that is reduced to 150k with 100k in healing...mostly on myself. You may disagree, that's alright. However, your disagreement will not change my opinion in any way, shape, form or fashion. But to say, "spec'ing lightning for PvP is extinct," is misleading and wrong. Extinct means no longer alive, gone forever, erased from existence. Lightning Spec'd Sorcerers are playing in PvP, there aren't alot of us because of the hybrids because Lightning Spec lacks the glorious offensive punch. However, when used in a support role, it is a very effective spec in aiding the melee and range players.

[Hairyzac]

Ghost, please troll somewhere else. You and your 7 friends may enjoy playing Lightning (which is all well and good), but that doesn't change the fact it is a horrible, horrible spec in comparison to anything else. You wasted a lot of your time typing that response. Absolutely nothing I said changes except you enjoy playing a broken, horrible spec. I always encourage people to play the spec they find the most fun, so keep playing Lightning if you enjoy it.

[islander]

Then I feel like this is almost as bad as the other problems with bubble stun. I know I could use more work when it comes to checking out my targets buffs and debuffs, but top level players who do it should be able to tell if they need to gimp their dps and pop the bubble from range, or if they can unload their burst rotation.

 

You know, sometimes stun bubbles breaking can be detrimental you know. I mean, it does properly fill resolve, and situationally that can occasionally be a problem when attempting to group CC multiples while a teammate attempts to secure a node/door/etc

[islander]

... My Sorcerer is there to support the team, not take the lead in an assault. I play it that way. If I'm left alone I can generate an average of 270k in damage. Harassed, I that is reduced to 150k with 100k in healing...mostly on myself. You may disagree, that's alright. However, your disagreement will not change my opinion in any way, shape, form or fashion. But to say, "spec'ing lightning for PvP is extinct," is misleading and wrong. Extinct means no longer alive, gone forever, erased from existence. Lightning Spec'd Sorcerers are playing in PvP, there aren't alot of us because of the hybrids because Lightning Spec lacks the glorious offensive punch. However, when used in a support role, it is a very effective spec in aiding the melee and range players.

 

This specifically needs to be emphasized. Sorcerers are effectively support characters, even as DPS. Yes, you CAN solo as a pro player, but you'd be at an inherent disadvantage doing so. Hey, some people thrive off of that. I'm not exactly a pro but I have stuck with my sorc because it's tougher sledding.

 

Besides, DPS sorc has to get some love eventually...right?

[Ghost_Spectre]

Ghost, please troll somewhere else. You and your 7 friends may enjoy playing Lightning (which is all well and good), but that doesn't change the fact it is a horrible, horrible spec in comparison to anything else. You wasted a lot of your time typing that response. Absolutely nothing I said changes except you enjoy playing a broken, horrible spec. I always encourage people to play the spec they find the most fun, so keep playing Lightning if you enjoy it.

 

That's your opinion. I do not accept it. I see the results of how I play my sorcerer. It is only broken in respect to those who want to do mega dps and rack up umpteen medals. PvP is about team play. There is no ‘I’ in team.

 

As for trolling...have you looked in the mirror lately? Offering one's opinion supported with quantifiable information does not make one a troll. It’s adding to the discussion. I surmise that if one does not agree with you and your opinion, they are, in your eyes, a troll. Good to know. I'll not bother responding to such an arrogant narcissist anymore.

[Ghost_Spectre]

This specifically needs to be emphasized. Sorcerers are effectively support characters, even as DPS. Yes, you CAN solo as a pro player, but you'd be at an inherent disadvantage doing so. Hey, some people thrive off of that. I'm not exactly a pro but I have stuck with my sorc because it's tougher sledding.

 

Besides, DPS sorc has to get some love eventually...right?

 

I knew from the beginning that a Sorcerer was not a frontline assault unit. My Sage taught me that. Therefore, I play in a support role for the team either in FP, Op, and PvP. That's the role and my character excels in that role. Likewise, if they do give the DPS Sorcerer some love, I hope it is not at the cost of something else, specifically Static Barrier.

 

I would offer this concerning the barrier. Nerf the ability to detonate when clicked off. Keep it as it is, but disallow it to do what it is intended to do when people make it go off. Problem solved. One thing for sure, I cannot spam that on anyone in the team with its CD. If defending a node with another, I put it on them and myself and keep it up.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Ghost_Spectre

[Mossesman]

My proposed change to the bubble stun - Make it so the stun only activate for the caster only, and not everyone else.

[Lejune]

My proposed change to the bubble stun - Make it so the stun only activate for the caster only, and not everyone else.

 

But then when mine is on CD I can't cast it on my teammate so when the smash monkey has me chained stunned and hits his IWIN button(because I KNOW its coming)...my teammates bubble stuns him for me! runs away heals me and teammate back up. Now my turn to bubble stun him

[Smashbrother]

Epic, you get served two different ways to kill a very high priority target and you give the guy lip back. Forums are so awesome.

 

He pushed the guy to make sure he can't cast (my guess) so he can't insta heal/rebubble

Same thing with the Awe move (my guess)

are you sure he did those two smashes with a 7 sec pause? (or did the force push prolong the timeframe enough that he can pull his smashes off?) <-- I reread his post, I think he got something out of order in his rotation, you are right, 2 smashes, 7 secs. impossible. (may be the forcepush is the wrong place since forcepush -> guardian leap for distance is redundant. use specced leap as opener (more dmg on specced leap gives higher chance to burst bubble on saber throw))

Perfectly executed combination like that will leave the sage dead or hanging by a thread with everything on CD (including WZ medpack)

 

The other people with bubbles matter less if you forcepush the sage away from support (again a reason to go for push over 2nd leap) You immediate objective is to lockdown/kill the sage, blowing your CDs to kill off a high priority target without taking any real damage is a good use of your CDs.

 

I will give you that there is something fishy about the first rotation though.

 

TL;DR

he may be off on specific rotation, but what he suggests is a good play that may make or break any opening skirmish in a WZ. So congratulations (in a non sarcastic manner) IS in order.

 

And what's the sage's teammates doing this whole time? Yea, real matches don't work out like that.