Premades; Why we do it

[Helig]

Today, 12/08/2012. I can: (and so can you)

 

Queue for regs with 1-3 of my guildies/friends.

Queue for regs by myself.

Queue for rated with 7 of my guildies/friends.

 

If you get your way and premades can't queue for regs, then my options become:

 

Queue for regs by myself.

Queue for rated with 7 of my guildies/friends.

 

2 < 3 = Limiting options.

I definitely can.

 

But a casual player who can't afford scheduled playtimes (unless he's in a community with a large pool of eligible 50 PvPers) can:

Pray to the gods of RNG that he's placed in a fair fight and that his limited playtime is not wasted getting farmed.

 

The end. "Pug premades" don't qualify, because they are, essentially, pugs.

 

I understand that 2-4 people groups may be your "comfort zone". But you must realize that there are a lot of players whose "comfort zone" is solo queue and chat coordination with random players.

You can say "Well, they can suck it up, get a guild that runs warzones and get a group and coordinate". I'd reply with "why don't *you* do the same? You have a guild and/or friends willing to play with you? Well, get *MORE* friends."

 

Naturally, I'd be wrong saying that. And so would you be demanding players to abandon/get forced out of a perfectly valid MMO playstyle.

 

Me and my guild (large, active community) somehow managed to play PvP before group queues were even present. We'd just sign up in a bunch (like 12 to 20), remaining in one TS channel, then go to TS channels corresponding instances we were assigned to.

 

"But Helig!", you'd say - "You're just proving how silly the solo queue is because of how easily it can be bypassed!"

 

While this is certainly true, the fact that premade-on-pug pressure would be significantly lessened is rather obvious. This is definitely a good thing for people who want to get into PvP without getting what amounts to prison-grade lovemaking of MMOs.

[Raynezazki]

While there is no excuse to not get the one medal (not three anymore) you need to get comms, I agree that people should not be punished for leaving a 'curb-stomp battle'. Better that, than petitioning Bioware to take away good PvPer's ability to play together.

 

People need to exercise their right to quit more often.

 

Going against a premade? Quit.

Someone on your team quits? Quit.

Going against 4 smashmonkeys? Quit.

Going against a team of Bubblestuns? Quit. (This I actually do sometimes)

 

Nothing communicates your unwillingness to compete in what you feel is a lopsided match, than seeing the message "this warzone will be aborted in 30 seconds unless more players join".

 

You don't want to get farmed by a premade? Then don't stick around to be farmed by a premade. But don't ask Bioware to make sure people can't play together.

 

EVERYONE has 3 options. Group with 1-3 people in regular. Group with 7 people and do ranked. Solo queue in regular.

 

Don't be the guy voting to take away other people's choices, just because you aren't very good at PvP or making friends, or both.

 

And that's exactly what I do.

(well save 2. I don't quit just cause someone else does. Most of the time I cheer because said whiner was holding everyone else back )

But when people cry that I should be punished for leaving a match I feel is not fun is when I feel hey if I'm gonna get punished separate the queues.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Raynezazki

[Sleprock]

More debuff arguments lol.

Some people have real lives and sometimes have to go regardless of whats going on.

[Zhaker]

I'll tell you why I premade whenever I can.

 

Its simple, but you people whining about premades ARE the SOLE reason why we premade.

 

Some PuGs are terrible.

 

When I mean terrible, they dont know how to DPS, they dont do objectives, they clown around in it and whine about how OP the other faction is.

 

=================================================

 

So here are the suggestions brought out:

 

- Premade fight premade only: Works if both sides want to fight and they do. But the problem is when one premade that has to go they're forced to PuG 5 people, 1 extra PuG makes it from fun to butt hurt experience. The other problem is the ABUSERS willing to abuse this system any way they can so that theyr'e always together.

 

Sure you can try to force queue solo as a means to have random groups each time but you cant guarantee this always and this can lead to queue delays. When a single premade is not getting queues pop up often they will abuse this just so they can play, regardless of win and lose.

 

- Match making system: This can work, but there needs a hidden rating system to do this, so the matchmaking system works, also needs to consider premades because each individual will have a different rating system than the other. The suggestion was gear, which can easily be abused. Valor is stupid because alts can bring a level 50 guy in valor 20 with war hero gear.

 

- Queue Solo Only: This is a joke, so now we're forced to NOT play together as a team, this is what the terribads who cant find a group to premade want. If you say otherwise dont even reply to this cause your just wasting space.

 

=========================================================

 

The REAL way this is going to work really is which you can argue all day long till the cows come home:

 

Find like minded people and join them as a premade: You have a higher chance of winning, but doesnt guarantee winning, but at least you know at least 3 others arent idiots and know what they're doing so you tend to trust them and be able to contribute to PvP in a concentrated effort.

 

But the REAL issue why puggers are arguing over premaders is simply. They get roflstomped.

 

As someone suggested if you had 7 good pugs fighting a ****** premade, the results are surprisingly the same.

 

So I leave all you whiners a real question:

 

What do you want out of PvP?

What is "fair" to you?

Why is winning all that important to you?

 

EDIT: Oh and for about being roflstomped, if I do get it then I just ride the wave and get the comms, its quick, and I can get to another WZ quickly, premades sometimes have a slower time to get queues than PuG as well. Just saying.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Zhaker

[criminalheretic]

I definitely can.

 

But a casual player who can't afford scheduled playtimes (unless he's in a community with a large pool of eligible 50 PvPers) can:

Pray to the gods of RNG that he's placed in a fair fight and that his limited playtime is not wasted getting farmed.

 

The end. "Pug premades" don't qualify, because they are, essentially, pugs.

 

I understand that 2-4 people groups may be your "comfort zone". But you must realize that there are a lot of players whose "comfort zone" is solo queue and chat coordination with random players.

You can say "Well, they can suck it up, get a guild that runs warzones and get a group and coordinate". I'd reply with "why don't *you* do the same? You have a guild and/or friends willing to play with you? Well, get *MORE* friends."

 

Naturally, I'd be wrong saying that. And so would you be demanding players to abandon/get forced out of a perfectly valid MMO playstyle.

 

Me and my guild (large, active community) somehow managed to play PvP before group queues were even present. We'd just sign up in a bunch (like 12 to 20), remaining in one TS channel, then go to TS channels corresponding instances we were assigned to.

 

"But Helig!", you'd say - "You're just proving how silly the solo queue is because of how easily it can be bypassed!"

 

While this is certainly true, the fact that premade-on-pug pressure would be significantly lessened is rather obvious. This is definitely a good thing for people who want to get into PvP without getting what amounts to prison-grade lovemaking of MMOs.

 

No. 2-4 players is not my "comfort zone". This is like arguing politics. Republicans think everyone that is rich earned every penny, and everyone that is poor, is lazy. Democrats think every rich person had a Harvard education paid for by mommy and daddy, and that every poor person is a hard worker who hasn't had as many opportunities.

 

Regardless of how "easy" it is for me to draw from my unlimited pool of elite pvpers...

 

Regardless of how "hard" it is for someone else to find 3 competent individuals to queue up with...

 

The facts are these.

 

I joined a guild. We group up. We win more often than not.

 

You have not joined a guild (or at least not a PvP guild). You do not group up. Apparently you lose more often than not.

 

I have taken steps to help myself win more often.

 

You have not taken steps to help yourself win more often. You are asking Bioware to take those steps for you, by undoing the steps I have taken.

 

If your comfort zone does not include taking steps to win, then you have to accept that your comfort zone, is losing.

Edited December 8, 2012 by criminalheretic

[Helig]

No. 2-4 players is not my "comfort zone". This is like arguing politics. Republicans think everyone that is rich earned every penny, and everyone that is poor, is lazy. Democrats think every rich person had a Harvard education paid for by mommy and daddy, and that every poor person is a hard worker who hasn't had as many opportunities.

 

<......>

 

You have not taken steps to help yourself win more often. You are asking Bioware to take those steps for you, by undoing the steps I have taken.

 

If your comfort zone does not include taking steps to win, then you have to accept that your comfort zone, is losing.

As I said, I am part of a large community, and we run rateds on a regular basis. But I've been on both sides of the fence (and I still play on both sides of the fence, as I solo-queue from time to time). Quality of life of a premade player is significantly above the quality of life of a solo PuGer. That is fact.

 

You're arguing that solo queuers getting a separate queue somehow hampers *your* playstyle and you're entitled to think that it's superior to their playstyle because you think you've done more to win. Fine, it's your point of view. But it does not make it any more important than the point of view of another player who simply wants to have fun without getting rolled over on a regular basis. They don't want to play with *you*. They want to play against eachother, on more equal terms. What's so hard to understand? I, as a rated player, take steps to win. But I play against other rated teams who did the things that I did, and I am matched against teams that are close to my own rating. This is the way it should be.

 

It is not the solo queuer who wants to take *your* playstyle away from you. It is *you* who wants to take *his* playstyle away from *him*. *You* are the one asking Bioware to retain *your* status-quo that you flaunt and willingly abuse. You are forcing your playstyle on others - not the other way around.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Helig

[cashogy]

i queue with premades so that i can ruin casual pug'ers days and make them cry. smashing bad players all day with no effort at all is what i live for

 

 

[criminalheretic]

As I said, I am part of a large community, and we run rateds on a regular basis. But I've been on both sides of the fence (and I still play on both sides of the fence, as I solo-queue from time to time). Quality of life of a premade player is significantly above the quality of life of a solo PuGer. That is fact.

 

You're arguing that solo queuers getting a separate queue somehow hampers *your* playstyle and you're entitled to think that it's superior to their playstyle because you think you've done more to win. Fine, it's your point of view. But it does not make it any more important than the point of view of another player who simply wants to have fun without getting rolled over on a regular basis. They don't want to play with *you*. They want to play against eachother, on more equal terms. What's so hard to understand? I, as a rated player, take steps to win. But I play against other rated teams who did the things that I did, and I am matched against teams that are close to my own rating. This is the way it should be.

 

It is not the solo queuer who wants to take *your* playstyle away from you. It is *you* who wants to take *his* playstyle away from *him*. *You* are the one asking Bioware to retain *your* status-quo that you flaunt and willingly abuse. You are forcing your playstyle on others - not the other way around.

 

The point you are intentionally missing is that it is not "MY" playstyle. It is "A" playstyle. It happens to be "A" playstyle that offers a greater chance at success. (it's not a "point of view", or we wouldnt have these threads) I also guard nodes and call incs. I don't claim to have a monopoly on that "style" either. Nevertheless, while I support someone's constitutional right to run all over the warzone ignoring objectives, if they came on the forums and said guarding objectives was not how they liked to express their special individuality, and that Bioware should give them their very own warzone, matched to their rules, because they are special unique snowflakes of special unque specialness, and they deserve to win because they pay 14.99/mo, I would argue with them too.

Edited December 8, 2012 by criminalheretic

[criminalheretic]

i queue with premades so that i can ruin casual pug'ers days and make them cry. smashing bad players all day with no effort at all is what i live for

 

 

 

I believe you.

[Helig]

The point you are intentionally missing is that it is not "MY" playstyle. It is "A" playstyle. It happens to be "A" playstyle that offers a greater chance at success. (it's not a "point of view", or we wouldnt have these threads) I also guard nodes and call incs. I don't claim to have a monopoly on that "style" either. Nevertheless, while I support someone's constitutional right to run all over the warzone ignoring objectives, if they came on the forums and said guarding objectives was not how they liked to express their special individuality, and that Bioware should give them their very own warzone, matched to their rules, because they are special unique snowflakes of special unque specialness, and they deserve to win because they pay 14.99/mo, I would argue with them too.

Playing field. See That Other Thread.

[DirtyDusty]

It is not the solo queuer who wants to take *your* playstyle away from you. It is *you* who wants to take *his* playstyle away from *him*. *You* are the one asking Bioware to retain *your* status-quo that you flaunt and willingly abuse. You are forcing your playstyle on others - not the other way around.

 

There it is folks. Can't argue with this. Kudos

[PoliteAssasin]

There it is folks. Can't argue with this. Kudos

 

That's right, hackers put in the queue group button. It isn't working as intended, Bioware wants us to queue solo.

[HuaRya]

Way back in august the SWTOR beta weekends were going and that was my first change to try SWTOR. I tried doing some warzone pvp, not quite sure what to expect and found them quite fun and was surprised to see that I was not doing that badly in PvP as I was not much of a PvP player and haven't played any MMO for ages.

 

I like this narcissistic monologues justifying these over geared cliquish premades waxing poetic on how godlike they have become.

 

They basically ruin the game for newer players and only because they are more established in the game do they stick around. Personally I would be bored to tears after I maxed out my gear and stomping pugs.

 

If you think you are really good at PVP , start a new toon on a different server and see how well you do.

[cashogy]

fix Ranked PvP.

 

its a joke right now. give players who want to play at that competitive level an actual incentive to do it (other than Ranked WZ comms, cuz tbh it doesnt take that much longer to get them the long way).

 

however, this all boils down to class balance. the nerf-go-round needs to stop. lets use Mara/Jugg performance as a baseline, and bring the other classes up to that level. Resolve needs balancing (dumbing it down was the absolutel WRONG thing to do, /tsk bioware).

 

basically, make it so that those of use who want to play competitively can. if bioware does that, you will see fewer steamrolling premades in non-ranked wzs.

[Helig]

fix Ranked PvP.

 

its a joke right now. give players who want to play at that competitive level an actual incentive to do it (other than Ranked WZ comms, cuz tbh it doesnt take that much longer to get them the long way).

I think Arenas would be a valid solution, I think. As long as they don't become the center of PvP balancing and gearing.

[Theodulus]

fix Ranked PvP.

 

its a joke right now. give players who want to play at that competitive level an actual incentive to do it (other than Ranked WZ comms, cuz tbh it doesnt take that much longer to get them the long way).

 

however, this all boils down to class balance. the nerf-go-round needs to stop. lets use Mara/Jugg performance as a baseline, and bring the other classes up to that level. Resolve needs balancing (dumbing it down was the absolutel WRONG thing to do, /tsk bioware).

 

basically, make it so that those of use who want to play competitively can. if bioware does that, you will see fewer steamrolling premades in non-ranked wzs.

The quickest fix to RWZ would be to introduce a new weekly that grants 1000 RWZ comms and 1000 normal comms. To complete the weekly you have to lose 9 rated warzones. There would be plenty of bads queuing up for some steamrolling. There would be RWZ pops 24/7.

Edited December 9, 2012 by Theodulus

[cashogy]

The quickest fix to RWZ would be to introduce a new weekly that grants 1000 RWZ comms and 1000 normal comms. To complete the weekly you have to lose 9 rated warzones. There would be plenty of bads queuing up for some steamrolling. There would be RWZ pops 24/7.

 

more daily/weekly quests would be great. and i think wording it was "complete x ranked matches". maybe 2 for the daily, 9 for the weekly?

 

solo-queuing into ranked matches would probably need to go along with that tbh.

 

this is a good idea tho. devs, look over here!

[hunterthesloth]

i wish that thaat there were different queues for premades, unless its just a 2 man group.

[Nataph]

Personally, if BW isnt going to fix the queue for ranked system what I think they should do is give a higher minimum commendations for solo queing. At times, i stay till the end and only get 50-65 commendations. It gives me a reason to just leave and not waste my time. but if i could get maybe minimum of 95 commendations with the opportunity to get more after medals, I would stay because now i am not wasting my time.

And for premades, they do not get that luxury but instead get the luxury that they will continue to win and get the max amount of commendations. while pugs, may well get their butts handed to them but now I can stay because its worthy my time.

[Evanouss]

So Sick of epeen premaders saying "go grab some friends and premade yourself. I agree with some of what the original poster says, but in the end, some people just want to do randoms. I actually love one random group with another random group or one premade vs another premade. Those are the best matches, a win actually gets you pumped. Premades stomping randoms is the epitomy of epeen. You can't argue that if you want your premade in with ramdom ques, you are the definition of epeen. Fight on your own level.

[johnyangelo]

And it all comes to that old saying:

 

"Equal matches are the best."

[CommanderKeeva]

I think that we really do have a nice community for PVP. I actually hope we never get cross realm as we would loose that.

 

I think, actually, that's the worst thing could happen. Our server has maybe 3 or 4 guilds that can reliably field 8 people to run rateds. But since fighting against the same guys over and over and over again gets really boring really fast and it has to be organized anyway due to the small number of reliable rated-ready pvp guilds per server, you see their premades all the time in normal warzones. So you get PuGs that don't have fun in normals because of too difficult opposition and hardcore premades that don't have fun in normals because of too low opposition.

 

XServer is the only thing that can save rated pvp. But Bioware, in its infinite wisdom, decided to put it in the "back barn". I'm not sure if it's just an epic amount of ignorance, stupidity or carelessness on their part but it's the worst thing they could have ever done for the future of PvP. The mega servers and the F2P saw some significant boost to PvE and probably even non-rated warzones, but all the hardcore PvP guilds that came together on one server are simply not enough to have reliable ranked warzones. So you have 4-5 top PvP guilds per server, sitting on their fleet, twiddling their thumbs or stomping pugs in non-ranked. Yay, for logic. I honestly cannot think of another serious MMO that doesn't have cross-server rated PVP matches. (Only reason I can think of is that Hero Engine is simply impossible to modify for xserver matches.)

 

I'm all for opening up rated matches for smaller than 8 groups but without a proper match-making system, you'd get the same frustrating **** that goes on in non-rateds. Only partial groups and PuGs would be crushed even faster and they would get even fewer commendations.

 

No, serious, organized PvP needs: 1. Cross-server queues 2. Tournament Ladders 3. Guild vs Guild matches.

It's the only thing that will keep hardcore PvP'ers participate in Season after Season and allow casuals and PuGs to have their fun and gear up relatively quickly in non-ranked.

 

This is the PvP formula all serious MMO games follow. Why Bioware chose a different path is beyond me. (Unless Hero Engine is impossible to modify of course, but then it is why they didn't plan this scenario ahead is what's beyond me.)

Edited December 9, 2012 by CommanderKeeva

[Veniras]

We are not getting cross-server. Deal with it.

[CommanderKeeva]

We are not getting cross-server. Deal with it.

 

Then the death knell has been sounded over this game.

[Veniras]

Then the death knell has been sounded over this game.

 

Maybe. I'm just also gettting tired of people "wishing upon a star" instead of facing the facts.