Time for a PvP Fix

[SoonerJBD]

Consider that it's almost unanimous- that 9 out of 10 or more people in the class feedback thread agree that everyone else considers this class a free kill- we don't get to that point if there isn't something very wrong with the class- and I guarantee if you'd asked those same questions before 1.2, the responses would be extremely different.

 

We are not in a good place right now, and it's going to take more than band aid fixes to make us not just viable- but as much a threat as anything else.

 

Wait, so 9 out of 10 people in a class thread think their class needs a buff? SHOCKING!

 

In all seriousness, I think a bit more escape utility might be in order along with a slight damage buff. And I still think we could use a true defensive cooldown. I just don't think we are as far off as many in this thread are insisting.

[SoonerJBD]

Oh really? The more I read your posts, it seems to me you seem to be in the lucky position of having a team carry you, either that or you're trolling. I really don't want to think the latter, but I don't know how you can keep reposting this nonsense.

 

Slight dps buff, like what? I mentioned sorc dps was way below other ACs by 15%, you remember, told me to check ToRparse claiming that sorc/sage dps is in the top 50s and that we are like only 11% behind snipers in theory. I then post the information, that gaps as large as 26% exist with the closest being 15% where sorcs actually made it into the top 50 and here you are claiming a 5% buff tops is all that is needed.

 

People can disagree with you without trolling, particularly when the numbers you post are utter garbage. The top 50 parses can't be used on their own to determine DPS gaps for a couple of reasons. First, unlike you, I've actually looked at many of the parses on those lists. A lot of the outliers at the top are not full fights. They are very short parses where the group wiped. Some are as short as 9 seconds. These aren't supposed to show up on the top 50 lists, but they still do at times. Second, DPS gaps are measured on the average, not at the very top. I've actually looked at hundreds of parses to check where the classes are because I've been arguing for a while now that Sorcs/Sages need a PvE DPS buff. Go read the posts I've made in the general forum on this. I've repeatedly tried to show there is a gap. The difference between us is that I'm realistic about how wide that gap is and how much of a buff I expect.

 

What the top parses do show is whether a particular class or spec is capable of parsing near the top on a particular fight. Sorcs and sages are showing up on those lists. Is it easier to put out good damage as a Marauder or Sniper? Sure. We could use a 5-10 percent damage buff in PvE. This would close the gap that is showing up in the parses pretty much completely. The class that REALLY has a beef in PvE DPS is Operative/Smuggler. They are nowhere to be found on the top DPS lists, and the sims also show they are the absolute worst.

 

The sims show our best spec is 8 percent off the top spec, and you want a 15 percent buff. Seriously, get real.

 

Furthermore, this dicussion is about PvP, which is not PvE and cannot be treated the same. While the arguments about utility don't really hold true in PvE, they do carry some weight in PvP. Being able to self heal is a big deal in PvP.

 

As for your theory that I am "being carried," I've cleared TFB HM, I parse at 1500-plus in every boss fight, and I'm 1-2 with the Marauder in our group. He generally beats me by about 30k damage on Writhing Horror and TFB while I beat him by the same amount on the Dread Guard, Operator and Kephess. In Warzones, I primarily queue solo and play in whatever PuG group I get. And I routinely top the damage charts. I do 300-500k in almost every warzone along with 100k healing at minimum. If I'm being guarded and/or healed, I can do 700k or more damage. My experience in rated warzones tells me we don't do as well when the opposing team really knows what it is doing. That's why I think a bit more utility and a 5 percent damage buff is needed. But again, I am realistic. We are not going to get a 15 percent damage buff, and if we did, we would be the new faceroll class. If you can't get near the top in damage on regular Warzones, get better gear and/or learn to play. If your complaint is about our place in rated Warzones, there is a legitimate beef, but it simply isn't as bad as you are making it out to be.

Edited December 9, 2012 by SoonerJBD

[dufox]

Lol a good sorc is a pain in the *** to kill as melee (solo) and a sorc has tons of crowd control abilities.

 

As an objective player It's 100x easier to defend a node or control the enemy team as a sorc than any other class iv played.

 

If I leveled my sorc as a sage it would be my main char instead of just another alt.

[Nucairion]

If we were truly that survivable and valued we'd have a role in RWZ as a steady member- outside of bubble stuns.

 

A 5% damage nerf would still put us under most pve parses- and we'd still be way too low in the burst department.

 

Our survivability is not as good as you think.

 

Unfortunately- we have no access to BW's metrics- but the last player study of RWZ over about 200 games put sorcs as the most deaths per match- 11, while marauders had the least at 5.

 

Also- the force speed has a longer CD than leaps- look at melee classes. Mara and jugg have a shorter CD leap, but, can make that even shorter, or get a second leap- or say, carnage gets two extra roots, one on a measely 12 second CD.

 

We have no baseline root- and full madness is almost never taken so that leaves us with needing to hybrid lightning for a root- not pure lightning though because pure lightning is terrible damage. We have no perma snare- our instant snare has a 6 sec duration, 12 sec CD- force lightning roots us and thus is not ideal for kiting.

 

 

We have range yes- but the cost for range in every other mmo is this- you get range, and your abilities have cast times. We have that- plus no defensives, plus lower burst, plus weak armour, plus no CC breaks, etc...

 

 

Yes, we have force speed- but it can be countered by anything as DPS, and only heal hybrids can at least avoid being rooted- but guess what, a mara can either root you if you're dps, or force choke you, or mez you if you're a healer, wasting your one escape.

 

The KB has very little distance to it- useful for knocking off huttball ramps but not for really eluding someone (the root in lightning is the good thing there).

 

Self heal is 30 sec CD- even using it, no fight against a burster will last that long- thus, you get to heal 3-5k hp, less if you've been trauma debuffed. Bubble is about 4k health.

 

Sounds good? That's one smash crit, or a rail shot/punch combo. Yes, you can waste maybe 2 or 3 GCDs- but not only do these classes still have more burst and sustained after that- which they're hitting you for far more damage (light armour is about 18% damage reduction, medium about 33%- so you're taking a good chunk more than a mara- nevermind all their defensives)- but their smash or double rail shot combo and thermal, etc... will be back up long before that heal is.

 

Casted self heals are very easy to interrupt.

 

 

But nevermind that- consider the reality- that you are first target, you are squishy, you have no defensive ability or mobility when locked down- and many other classes can and will chain root you to death. All the while- you have nothing to offer a team for DPS- you can't kill healers, you can't clear doors or nodes, you can't break a caster or pressure a healer- not as well as PTs, mara, juggs, sins or snipers can.

 

 

I don't want us to be OP- I want us to be at a point where we have as much value in a RWZ dps slot as any other player- a 5% damage boost is not going to do that- those classes survive better, move better, protect/take objectives better. We may even lose our one spot- as healer/stun bubble once we lose the stun bubble to a second healing operative.

 

Then what are we? Mercs?

 

the problem is u want ur class to be extremely good at everyting u want to match the top sustainted dpses the top burst dpsers the top survivability and the top healing thus making sorcs/sages the best all rounded class to play pick 1-2 things and stick to it if ur wanting more survivability ur playing the wrong class. granted damage needs a slight inscrwease for pve but tell me when does anyone last long enough in pvp to hit the max dps?. rwz are bad atm not because of how sorcs play but because the people who make groups with op classes only and that is a problem for others yes but its because others are over performing more than others are under performing.

 

each class has to bring something different to the table not all be equally good at everything. ok i will admit without the bubble stun u may say that sorcs will no long have something that makes them unique and maybe ur right but they need to change it some how perhaps making it so that the stun from the bubble cant reaplly for 5-6 seconds after one bubble explodes and as i said before my main problem aint even with the bubble its the person who thinks sorcs should be hitting for 8k if he wants damage like that he should role a raged specced warrior but the day sorcs hit for 8k is the day pvp ends

[ShupFace]

Good sorc players are capable of posting respectable damage scores in RWZ through dots and aoe. But without a stronger defense or offense there's not much stopping us from being targeted, except the soon to be nerfed stun bubble.

 

Not every class needs to be a burst class and not every spec needs to be viable for PvP, but it would be nice if there was a stronger DPS spec for sorc in PvP.

 

For sorc to be more competitive they either need to up our burst or give us a bit more survivability so we can take advantage of our sustained damage.

 

Obviously if they implement every suggested change Sorc's will be vastly OP, but a buff to damage would definitely be welcome at this point.

[fungihoujo]

the problem is u want ur class to be extremely good at everyting u want to match the top sustainted dpses the top burst dpsers the top survivability and the top healing thus making sorcs/sages the best all rounded class to play pick 1-2 things and stick to it if ur wanting more survivability ur playing the wrong class. granted damage needs a slight inscrwease for pve but tell me when does anyone last long enough in pvp to hit the max dps?. rwz are bad atm not because of how sorcs play but because the people who make groups with op classes only and that is a problem for others yes but its because others are over performing more than others are under performing.

 

each class has to bring something different to the table not all be equally good at everything. ok i will admit without the bubble stun u may say that sorcs will no long have something that makes them unique and maybe ur right but they need to change it some how perhaps making it so that the stun from the bubble cant reaplly for 5-6 seconds after one bubble explodes and as i said before my main problem aint even with the bubble its the person who thinks sorcs should be hitting for 8k if he wants damage like that he should role a raged specced warrior but the day sorcs hit for 8k is the day pvp ends

 

Not what I've been saying- what I've actually said is that for us to be viable in RWZ we need at least ONE thing that makes us stand out- right now that is the stun bubble in healer builds for group utility- once that is nerfed we will likely go back to where we were before- not as good as an op healer, and behind at least 5 other ACs for dps viability.

 

AKA- with no spot. As you even point out- people are not taking us because we are worse than other classes, especially for dps spots.

 

I don't want us to be top with survivability, dps, mobility, objective taking/defending ability, CC and whatever else- I want to be in a comfortable range of other classes in those areas, while being best/bringing something valuable in one of those.

 

 

Survivability- we are one of the worst here- we take 15-20% more damage than any other class simply based on armour. When a jugg gets crit for 6k, a mara gets crit for 6.5k- we get crit for 8k. It adds up. To add to that we have no defensive CDs- and while range may help a bit, in this game gap closers and CC are so prevalent it's barely an advantage outside of 1v1.

 

Mobility- no perma/long term speed buffs, only the heal spec gets decent root immunity and purging- but we have nothing to help against any hard CC. Our 2 second speed buff seems nice- but, a marauder with predation would soon overtake us- heck, even a carnage mara simply running with their natural speed boost would rapidly catch up- never mind gap closers, or that every class has at least one way to counter even a healer's run- and a DPS force speed with no root immunity will spend their time in place the moment they start to run.

 

CC- now here is where we mistakenly seem to think sorcs have the advantage, and with group wide stun bubbles we actually do, because that's alot of CC and it's CC that can be used to take objectives... self only though we lose that, and if you look at actual CC we have- we're outdone on root, snare, KB and mez- and with the stun range reduced we don't even have that advantage. Plus- we are the easiest class to interrupt due to so many long casts, making us in turn the most CC-able class- and no CC breaks other than the one all get, only healers get a root break.

 

Damage- obviously I don't need to sell anyone on our burst being the worst in game, and even our sustained is only average. We can be countered easily by healer purges, and outhealed very easily by any healer- we deliver the worst pressure in the game as well.

 

 

So- we are easy to counter, weak burst, weak survivability, long cast times with no interrupt protection, CC that is matched or bettered by most other classes (after stun bubble nerf), our mobility is very easy to counter and even if not, doesn't grant us that much space.

 

 

As you even said- people don't take sorcs for dps in RWZ, they take 'OP' classes. I don't care how we become viable in RWZ as both dps and healers- I'd prefer it came from buffs to us rather than nerfs to others- but ultimately, I just want us to be in a place where we offer something valuable enough to RWZ teams that we are not ignored.

 

DPS ops, mercs, and sorcs have been all but absent from RWZ for eight months now- I'm not going to stop pushing for us to become viable until we have as much of a spot on those teams as a mara, shadow or sniper does.

[fungihoujo]

Wait, so 9 out of 10 people in a class thread think their class needs a buff? SHOCKING!

 

In all seriousness, I think a bit more escape utility might be in order along with a slight damage buff. And I still think we could use a true defensive cooldown. I just don't think we are as far off as many in this thread are insisting.

 

No- 9 out of 10 consider this class a free kill. There's a difference; and such thoughts are also prevalent among dps ops and mercs- which are the three classes not taken for DPS- not a coincidence.

 

And all classes got the same class feedback thread- look at them, other classes are considerably more positive.

 

If we weren't far off- we wouldn't be all but shunned from RWZ teams in a dps role.

[fungihoujo]

Lol a good sorc is a pain in the *** to kill as melee (solo) and a sorc has tons of crowd control abilities.

 

As an objective player It's 100x easier to defend a node or control the enemy team as a sorc than any other class iv played.

 

If I leveled my sorc as a sage it would be my main char instead of just another alt.

 

It's 100x easier to defend a node as a sorc?

 

Well then- that would explain why snipers are always put at choke points and sins tend to be the one class to solo defend nodes, right?

 

I want to see an RWZ match with two good teams where one is using a sorc as their objective point defender.

[SoonerJBD]

No- 9 out of 10 consider this class a free kill. There's a difference; and such thoughts are also prevalent among dps ops and mercs- which are the three classes not taken for DPS- not a coincidence.

 

And all classes got the same class feedback thread- look at them, other classes are considerably more positive.

 

If we weren't far off- we wouldn't be all but shunned from RWZ teams in a dps role.

 

I understand what you were saying. I just don't find it all that enlightening. People complain in the class feedback thread because people complain in forums. That's what they do. I'm sure Marauders are much happier about the state of their class since everyone knows it is OP, but you even find whining there. The complaints in the merc/commando and smuggler/operative forums are even worse than they are in ours.

 

We could use a slight buff. But we are not a "free kill." You keep making it sound as if we have no hope of ever doing well in a warzone, and that is simply hyperbole.

[dufox]

It's 100x easier to defend a node as a sorc?

 

Well then- that would explain why snipers are always put at choke points and sins tend to be the one class to solo defend nodes, right?

 

I want to see an RWZ match with two good teams where one is using a sorc as their objective point defender.

 

Never said it was the best, I said its easier. Other classes can solo kill sorcs can just stall the longest.

[fungihoujo]

Never said it was the best, I said its easier. Other classes can solo kill sorcs can just stall the longest.

 

100x easier sure sounds like saying it's the best- and for something that is never done in RWZ. If it was so easy to do- it would be a well used tactic- yet it is a never used tactic in competitive pvp.

 

Mostly because sorcs cannot stall longer, because they're very easy to quickly kill compared to other classes.

[fungihoujo]

I understand what you were saying. I just don't find it all that enlightening. People complain in the class feedback thread because people complain in forums. That's what they do. I'm sure Marauders are much happier about the state of their class since everyone knows it is OP, but you even find whining there. The complaints in the merc/commando and smuggler/operative forums are even worse than they are in ours.

 

We could use a slight buff. But we are not a "free kill." You keep making it sound as if we have no hope of ever doing well in a warzone, and that is simply hyperbole.

 

Except- a marauder is all but guaranteed to be in a RWZ team- with a second being very likely, and even a third not being as rare as having a single DPS sorc. Even our current use in RWZ- the bubble stun group utility- is being threatened to be turned into not having any group utility at all- and BW tends to go through with such nerfs on non-marauder classes.

 

If we were in the territory of just needing a 'slight' buff, we wouldn't be absent from RWZ excluding the bubble stun- and who's to say we won't go back to being replaced by a second op for healing once again when that's nerfed?

 

The composition of RWZ says it all- you do not see dps ops, mercs or sorcs because when people are trying to win they take the best classes. Those 3 classes do not offer enough to be considered.

 

I can point out the burst differences, the lack of survival, the way everyone looks at the class, the RWZ representation, stats taken from RWZ leaders showing sorcs at as much as double the deaths/match of marauders, the drop in sorc players after 1.2, the drop in subs period after 1.2, the overall deficiencies when you compare the class ability by ability to others, how ranged classes similar to the sorc work in other mmos- everything points to the same conclusion that there is a problem- frankly, is there anything that would even make you willing to admit the class is in need of some serious help, because it seems you're completely against the idea that there could possibly be imbalance in an mmo.

[dufox]

100x easier sure sounds like saying it's the best- and for something that is never done in RWZ. If it was so easy to do- it would be a well used tactic- yet it is a never used tactic in competitive pvp.

 

Mostly because sorcs cannot stall longer, because they're very easy to quickly kill compared to other classes.

 

False.

Easier and better are two completely different things.

It's never used because its not the best.

A sage can stall longer than any other class.

[lokdron]

False.

Easier and better are two completely different things.

It's never used because its not the best.

A sage can stall longer than any other class.

 

........................................... u serious? A sage/sorc can stall longer than any other class? lol.....

[fungihoujo]

False.

Easier and better are two completely different things.

It's never used because its not the best.

A sage can stall longer than any other class.

 

If they can stall longer than any other class- they would be the best at stalling longer than any other class, and thus have a pretty good position of doing just that.

 

Since they cannot- a sin can do it a hundred times better than a sorc- they are not.

[dufox]

........................................... u serious? A sage/sorc can stall longer than any other class? lol.....

 

Odd how u laughing at what I said makes me laugh at what ur saying

 

If u don't believe me then u haven't seen a sorc play at his best

[fungihoujo]

Odd how u laughing at what I said makes me laugh at what ur saying

 

If u don't believe me then u haven't seen a sorc play at his best

 

Sounds more like you're on a server where everyone else is absolutely terrible.

[SoonerJBD]

If we were in the territory of just needing a 'slight' buff, we wouldn't be absent from RWZ excluding the bubble stun- and who's to say we won't go back to being replaced by a second op for healing once again when that's nerfed?

 

Marauders need a nerf completely seperate of any buff we need. If we can all agree that Marauders are OP, and it seems like pretty much everyone does, why would you expect to be raised to the same level of OP as they are? I expect them to get a nerf and Sorcs/Sages to get a buff.

[SoonerJBD]

Assassins, and stealth classes in general, are the best at single defending on nodes simply because they can mez, go back into stealth, then mez again when the first one wears off. That really isn't an open question.

[Chemic_al]

As for your theory that I am "being carried," I've cleared TFB HM, I parse at 1500-plus in every boss fight, and I'm 1-2 with the Marauder in our group. He generally beats me by about 30k damage on Writhing Horror and TFB while I beat him by the same amount on the Dread Guard, Operator and Kephess. In Warzones, I primarily queue solo and play in whatever PuG group I get. And I routinely top the damage charts. I do 300-500k in almost every warzone along with 100k healing at minimum. If I'm being guarded and/or healed, I can do 700k or more damage. My experience in rated warzones tells me we don't do as well when the opposing team really knows what it is doing. That's why I think a bit more utility and a 5 percent damage buff is needed. But again, I am realistic. We are not going to get a 15 percent damage buff, and if we did, we would be the new faceroll class. If you can't get near the top in damage on regular Warzones, get better gear and/or learn to play. If your complaint is about our place in rated Warzones, there is a legitimate beef, but it simply isn't as bad as you are making it out to be.

 

Your 100k healing is probably not much more than you hitting your self-heal. But that's by the by, no, I have no need to "L2P", or get better gear, I have full auged WH thanks. 300-500k is easy enough to do per wz, but you know as well as I do, that number is aoe padded, and stronger single-target "burstier" dps classes are having more of an effect on the outcome of the wz.

 

And finally you start to admit that sorc/sage is not fine, "if the other team know what they're doing ... " and "there's a legitimate beef with a place in ranked wz". Do elaborate, since previous posts of yours seem to think we have all we need to do well, and you were the one asking "what more do you want?". So let's turn it around, you tell us... a 5% buff in damage is clear, but "a bit more utility" is awfully vague.

[fungihoujo]

Marauders need a nerf completely seperate of any buff we need. If we can all agree that Marauders are OP, and it seems like pretty much everyone does, why would you expect to be raised to the same level of OP as they are? I expect them to get a nerf and Sorcs/Sages to get a buff.

 

Why expect them to get a nerf when they haven't despite being top for eight months- with zero sign that BW even considers anything wrong- they haven't even given a sign they consider the rage smash spec OP.

 

Sorcs, same thing- no decent buff in that long- end up with an instant heal but get a nerf to our KB and stun in return.

 

Why exactly do you expect them to buff us? Where is this confidence coming from? Is it perhaps from their addressing the complaints about mercs by saying that they believe merc's main problem is they aren't pillar humping well enough?

 

We have 3 classes- sorcs, ops, mercs- that have been bottom rung in RWZ dps slots for eight months- while mara have been number one that long, with PT and sins following shortly after, and snipers gradually getting better and better, and now even juggs have a slice of that pie.

 

All in all though- the relative balance of classes has changed very little since 1.2.

[Jawa-Punter]

Just wait a while. We'll get buffed. I just started playing again so I was surprised at the current state of the class. When I quit Sorcs and sages were the OP FOTM class. We'll get our turn again. In MMOs everything goes through perpetual gimp/OP cycles.

[SoonerJBD]

Your 100k healing is probably not much more than you hitting your self-heal. But that's by the by, no, I have no need to "L2P", or get better gear, I have full auged WH thanks. 300-500k is easy enough to do per wz, but you know as well as I do, that number is aoe padded, and stronger single-target "burstier" dps classes are having more of an effect on the outcome of the wz.

 

And finally you start to admit that sorc/sage is not fine, "if the other team know what they're doing ... " and "there's a legitimate beef with a place in ranked wz". Do elaborate, since previous posts of yours seem to think we have all we need to do well, and you were the one asking "what more do you want?". So let's turn it around, you tell us... a 5% buff in damage is clear, but "a bit more utility" is awfully vague.

 

You have to actually read my posts. I know that is hard. I've said before, another escape would be nice. Barring that, root protection on force speed might help. I've said all along we need a slight damage buff. I just think 15 percent is unrealistic and unnecessary.

[SoonerJBD]

Why expect them to get a nerf when they haven't despite being top for eight months- with zero sign that BW even considers anything wrong- they haven't even given a sign they consider the rage smash spec OP.

 

Sorcs, same thing- no decent buff in that long- end up with an instant heal but get a nerf to our KB and stun in return.

 

Why exactly do you expect them to buff us? Where is this confidence coming from? Is it perhaps from their addressing the complaints about mercs by saying that they believe merc's main problem is they aren't pillar humping well enough?

 

We have 3 classes- sorcs, ops, mercs- that have been bottom rung in RWZ dps slots for eight months- while mara have been number one that long, with PT and sins following shortly after, and snipers gradually getting better and better, and now even juggs have a slice of that pie.

 

All in all though- the relative balance of classes has changed very little since 1.2.

 

My wording wasn't perfect. I expect Maruaders to get a nerf. I do not necessarily expect sorcs/sages to get a buff, but I do think we need one. Smash is the most complained about mechanic in PvP by far. I don't know whether it will be enough of a nerf, but I do expect it will be tuned down some way or another.

 

If I were the one making the balance changes, I would nerf rage/focus, and I would buff sage/sorc damage by 5 percent. That is what I think is needed.

Edited December 10, 2012 by SoonerJBD

[ClockworkSoldier]

Let's get this straight once and for all. Sorcs are not going to get a damage increase!

 

I will tell you why.... It is simple sorc like other classes that cast can bypass GCD straight after a cast. With changing your rotation you can do allot of damage in a very short space of time however the issue is the set up time in order to do this is stupid and provides you no ability to kite. below I have listed the rotation I use that will take half to nearly all of some ones health bar.

 

I use a madness - lightning build as frankly the full trees are to week in dps output and frankly I'm not the type of player to fake numbers by spamming affliction on every one for a whole WZ!

 

Cast Crushing darkness, right as the cast ends hit the affliction skill (this will cast in one animation bypassing GCD)

 

Next cast lightning strike (this has the 30% proc chance) and use the same trick as above straight into Force lightning The damage from Lightning strike will hit at the same time as teh first tick of force lightning + any dots.

 

Right at the end of force lightning use shock.

 

This can change however, if you proc CL replace shock with CL and lightning infusion will make you do allot of damage very quickly, allowing you to repeat your next combo.

 

Repeat this final combo. Lightning strike + Force Lightning + Shock.

 

I've tested this and apart from the beastly set up time it takes to get this on someone i have dropped a PT with 1300 Ex to 20% finishing him off, with the repeat of the last combo.

 

Additional: if Bioware removes bypassing GCD and makes you cast each skill, the DPS Sorc will be no more.

 

Personally I think the bubble is fine it finaly allows teh ranged classes to play a more active role in ranked WZ's. opposed to the melee WTFPWN dps train.

 

What I think they should do is remove the ability to triger it early. This would stop a 3k a flame burst spam PT having an extra 3 second stun! But hey who am I, I'm just a sorc player lol!