Time for a PvP Fix

[Tweedledey]

First off, great job original poster for posting the concerns of the sorcerer community. I'm a bit concerned after reading the staff post. I do agree that the bubble stun should have never been implemented to begin with as this game has far to much cc as it is. They really should have offered sages and sorcerers other options such as increasing our damage and lowering the casting time of some of our force abilities.

 

However, my main concern is the viability of both the sorcerer and sage in pvp once bioware nerfs the bubble stun. Most melee have numerous slows, stuns, and mezzes to keep you in range. We have very little escape tools and if we do stay to cast we're normally taken down pretty fast. All three of our trees need to be looked at as we lack the burst to really take anything down. We really need our damaged increased significantly.

 

If they do end up nerfing the bubble stun which I believe they will it may be time for me to move on.

[TheNahash]

However, my main concern is the viability of both the sorcerer and sage in pvp once bioware nerfs the bubble stun. Most melee have numerous slows, stuns, and mezzes to keep you in range. We have very little escape tools and if we do stay to cast we're normally taken down pretty fast. All three of our trees need to be looked at as we lack the burst to really take anything down. We really need our damaged increased significantly.

 

If they do end up nerfing the bubble stun which I believe they will it may be time for me to move on.

 

Well I think that since they said:

Since this is such great utility for the Lightning Sorcerer, we don't want to change the effect of Backlash, but we are considering making the Backlash effect only apply to the original caster - so you only get a Backlash when you put your Static Barrier on yourself.

 

That's just the current idea. We don't have any plans on making Static Barrier or Backlash worse than it currently is for the Sorcerer that uses it.

 

we can at least be hopeful that they won't mess with our survivability. Yes, it's a great utility, but we all know it's being abused. If they make it so you can only get the stun for bubbles on yourself, I don't see how that would affect our survivability at all. Granted, it's a big help sometimes when healing allies, but still changing that doesn't really mess with our survivability.

[Rigaux]

I hope they do fix the AC for the better. As a Lightning Sorc im absolutely sick and tired of being useless in PvP and easily killed. The smash/Sweep bandwaggon also did not help.

[Rincewend]

I hope they do fix the AC for the better. As a Lightning Sorc im absolutely sick and tired of being useless in PvP and easily killed. The smash/Sweep bandwaggon also did not help.

 

We are currently only useful for a bubble stun (not game changeing no matter what Smashmonkeys say, it just slows them down and puts a target on our heads for a 3 hit kill). Who designs a DPS tree to only be useful for it 3s bubble stun, my TB with crit only lands a 3-4k on a single target (not enough to even take the bubble off the target I am attacking). We need more than a little love. I want the PVP dev's to reroll all their smashmonkeys and only play sorcs for two months.

[Rigaux]

We are currently only useful for a bubble stun (not game changeing no matter what Smashmonkeys say, it just slows them down and puts a target on our heads for a 3 hit kill). Who designs a DPS tree to only be useful for it 3s bubble stun, my TB with crit only lands a 3-4k on a single target (not enough to even take the bubble off the target I am attacking). We need more than a little love. I want the PVP dev's to reroll all their smashmonkeys and only play sorcs for two months.

 

Exactly. I played against a team of sweepers on voidstar and finally got anoyyed at them wiping us out. So I started to put my bubble on everyone and ignored fighting when I could just to put the bubble when possible. Did it make a difference? Did not even build a wall against them.

[Darkallex]

One of the big issues with sorcerers is that devs lost even their own goal which was their main excuse for nerfing sorcs all the way.....making hybrids less appealing to players than full trees.

Atm 2 of the 3 best specs in PVP are hybrids,hybrid lightning/madness and hybrid corruption/lightning.So either Bioware had really poor devs or they were just telling us lies to sooth the qq about those nerfs.

Apart from community's qqing BW has to see the following facts:

-They have a class with bad high-end talents which don t give advantage by any means....dps,healing,survivability-wise.From the start of the game I never had the satisfaction of playing a full tree with all its perks more than a week(except for the lvling period).

-They have atm 3 AC that none wants them in RWZ as dpsers.Operatives,BH and sorcs.This is btw a big majority in Imperial side and I talk every day with ppl that are getting bored from the fact that can't participate in rwz and have to stick with the same lvl wz after a year in this game.There are good players that are not even getting a chance to prove they are worth because of their spec(unless if they are healers ofc).

-From the previous point I mentioned derives another issue.As Imps side was full of dps sorcs and bounty hunters(dps operatives became extinct after last February by BW's same actions) this makes PVP experience in imperial side a bit frustrating.There are ppl that don't want to play a healer but like to play sorcerer and don't want to reroll,there are returning players that have no clue about the position of sorcs in pvp atm and they enter wzs thinking they are still able to solo things or keep objectives for more than 5 secs and finally even good and well geared players aren't helped a lot by their class and have to put a lot of effort to stand out.When I enter a wz and see 4-5 sorcs in it I know that most probably the game will end up with ppl getting angry,yelling,leaving wz or giving up after the first 2-3 minutes of battle.

All in all,they should see to this situation before next content because it is affecting the whole imperial pvp side.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Darkallex

[AdmiralParmesan]

One of the big issues with sorcerers is that devs lost even their own goal which was their main excuse for nerfing sorcs all the way.....making hybrids less appealing to players than full trees.

Atm 2 of the 3 best specs in PVP are hybrids,hybrid lightning/madness and hybrid corruption/lightning.So either Bioware had really poor devs or they were just telling us lies to sooth the qq about those nerfs.

Apart from community's qqing BW has to see the following facts:

-They have a class with bad high-end talents which don t give advantage by any means....dps,healing,survivability-wise.From the start of the game I never had the satisfaction of playing a full tree with all its perks more than a week(except for the lvling period).

-They have atm 3 AC that none wants them in RWZ as dpsers.Operatives,BH and sorcs.This is btw a big majority in Imperial side and I talk every day with ppl that are getting bored from the fact that can't participate in rwz and have to stick with the same lvl wz after a year in this game.There are good players that are not even getting a chance to prove they are worth because of their spec(unless if they are healers ofc).

-From the previous point I mentioned derives another issue.As Imps side was full of dps sorcs and bounty hunters(dps operatives became extinct after last February by BW's same actions) this makes PVP experience in imperial side a bit frustrating.There are ppl that don't want to play a healer but like to play sorcerer and don't want to reroll,there are returning players that have no clue about the position of sorcs in pvp atm and they enter wzs thinking they are still able to solo things or keep objectives for more than 5 secs and finally even good and well geared players aren't helped a lot by their class and have to put a lot of effort to stand out.When I enter a wz and see 4-5 sorcs in it I know that most probably the game will end up with ppl getting angry,yelling,leaving wz or giving up after the first 2-3 minutes of battle.

All in all,they should see to this situation before next content because it is affecting the whole imperial pvp side.

 

This needs a like button

[Laforet]

Hello thread i am Believer and i used to be on Fatman, now on P5.

 

I am (was, because i not playing RWZs atm) a very sucessful rated healer. I also have gladiator experience in World of Warcraft, i have been healing MMOs for almost 9 years from now, and i have to say something. I have played more than 200 RWZs and my win/lose ratio is 8:1, back in the days when i played with my team i have taken on the best teams of old Fatman server (STS, ladles crew, Stoic, Hostile Takeover, you name it).

 

While i might not agree with everything that has been said on this thred, i have to say something that has been stuck on my gut since 1.2 hit: OUR CLASS BLOWS, OUR CLASS BLOWS HARD TIME, ESPECIALLY IN RATEDS.

 

And if they take away bubble stun from us, its going to be the end of it, there is no hope.

 

I will divide my post since its going to be a big one (im eloquent), the first one is going to be about my role: healing.

 

How does sorc heals pvp? We heal bad, big time, we suck ***. Why?

 

Well the first thing that part of the community (and Mr. Pack and Paw) must understand is that PVP IS NOT ABOUT SCOREBOARD NUMBERS, while numbers, be them heals, dmg or protect are nice anc cozy to have in the end of a match, they do not reflect the outcome of PvP.

 

What PvP healing is about them, if not HPS? PvP healing is about control, counter burst and deception, PvP in general is about OUTPLAYING your oponent and turning the tides of a fight, not just munching high numbers.

 

To this end, i have to say corruption / seer tree is dog tier for PvP and useless. Why? Because the main outlet of the tree is a clunky self turret AoE spell. Which is great for PvE, great for padding WZ scoreboard but it sucks for real PvP. While we have that dammed AoE as our main outlet of our tree, we will suck, period.

 

AoE healing doesnt save anyone for getting bursted down, AoE healing makes you a self rooted scarecrow, subject to multiple beatings, thats very bad when you are playing the amazing class that gets 3 shotted by any half decent dps. Most of the sages that say they are competitive with that trash AoE spec are actually being babysitted by a tank 24/7.

 

While players SHOULD work together and peeling IS needed in PvP. Healers shouldnt require 24/7 peeling. When i play a RWZ, i use my skills to have minimal peels, because the less peels i need, my team gets more time to actually KILL the enemy. If you need constant peeling, you are already on the backfoot and on your way to LOSE the fight.

 

What im trying to say is, AoE healing in PvP sucks and mr Pack and Paw should design us out of that if he wants us viable PvP healers, what i dont think he really wants because the dog state of our class is so visible that i just cant believe that they havent realised it by now.

 

Lets face it: they dont care about us because they are too busy planning the next amazing buff of their pet class, you know which class im talking about.

 

 

You talk a lot of funny stuff, but whats the real deal with sage healing

 

Ima tell you the real deal, why we are dog. The thing is playing sorc heal is a catch-22 experience. You have to move or you get dead, but your heals are weak and self rooting. So you move to avoid death but you cant heal while moving a lot. With that in mind, healing effetively a RWZ on a sage is a task that requires an OBSCENE amount of skill and yelds subpar results.

 

 

The way of the Hybrid, whats the deal with it anyway?

 

Aware that AoE stinks for PvP, aware of the trap that the old development team laid for us (and Pack and Paw seems to want to keep it) the best healers in the game went hybrid. Most people dont realise but 21/19/X is CONTROL hybrid with some degree of healing. Whats the point of hybrid? Hybrids give up a BIG CHUNK of their healing to have better control of the fight because of the stun bubble. The stun bubble, while it has subpar healing, it helps to break the offensive movement of the enemy team.

 

LOLMARA PET CLASS jumps bubble player, LOLSMASH, JK stun, while he actually hit the smash hes now stunned and cant continue with the burst sequence (wich would prolly connect with an obscene force shout hitting for over than 5k). This "stonewall" factor is what makes or breaks PvP for us, both on ourselves but also on the people were trying to protect. When a developer shows up and says hes going to take it away from us he really intends to shut us down, because WE JUST DONT HAVE THE HELING POWER TO KEEP PEOPLE UP WITH OUR AWKWARD HEALS WITHOUT THE BUBBLE BREAK.

 

Pack and Paws post is scumbag-ish as the class he designed, the restriction to bubble stun will be the last nail on the coffin for us.

 

 

You say our healing is dog but i have high HPS, where is your god now?

 

Remember i said HPS has nothing do to with PvP? PvE is that way ----------->

 

Yes kids, our healing sucks for PvP, i will tell you why, piece by piece.

 

Healing Trance - Its penance, as a gladiator disc priest i love it, albeit self rooting, the instant healing allows for fine stop and run playstile which is very cool.

 

Rejuvenate - Its not the best HoT in the world, but it has a decent upfront heal and gives us force bend so its kind of cool i like it.

 

Dark Heal - this one is a joke, its fast, it costs a lot of mana, it doesnt heal for dog. Its suposed to be a flash heal style, a counter burst crutch heal that heals for a good amount, costs a lot of mana so if you spam it you will get OOM. Its a flash heal with all the cons and no pros. Its also weaker than the flash heals of scoundrels / mandos. GG.

 

Dark Infusion - 3 seconds. ROFL. Full 3 seconds cast on the class that has to move or get dead. I really wish the scumbag of a dev who developed this spell burns in development hell. Also, to couple up, it doesnt heal a lot for the 3 second cast. Its a trap, doesnt worth it. All of the mirror heals of the other healing classes heals for more with less cast time. Its a joke. GG.

 

Bubble - sooo, our subject of appreciation, our princess. Im sorry kids, bubble sucks. I know i know its instant and stuff. Its kinda neat but i have to tell you. Bubble doesnt crit. What that means? It means it doesnt double scale with gear. While every skill in the game scales both with power and crit surge, bubble doesnt. So, it was great when everyone had 15k HP centurion gear and lower crit / surge ratings but now its dog tier. And as damage ramps up (new EWH sets and stuff) bubble gets weaker and weaker. Imagine if sawbones signature spell (spammable instant no cost emergency cockpack) couldnt crit? That would be bad for then huh? Yup, sucks to be us. A good smash prolly doubles the amount of damage my bubble can absorb, and im gunning in FULL ELITE WH YO. And after that JK 17 seconds lockdown more than enough time to get banged to death. GG devs i love you.

 

Couple this awkward heals that do not fit our playstile or dont scale properly with the general squishyness of our class and you have a deathtrap in the hands of a marauder / ptech team.

 

If you wanna play a sage, you better be a dammed god of PvP or just rerrol.

 

 

Ok, i get it, we suck, but how could we get better without being out of balance

 

First thing we need is to be moved away from AoE. AoE is what plagues us bit time. The problem with AoE it that it actually gives us good numbers so Pack and Paw thinks were fine. WERE NOT. Scoreboard heroes dont save the day in PvP, controllers and counter bursters do.

 

Second, we need our signature spell must be a real signature spell. YES, IT MUST CRIT. Theres no way you can balance us without making it crit.

 

What i think good development would look like:

 

- Get rid of confound, while a slow its ok and i will take it everyday, it kinda overlaps badly with force slow and most of the sages dont take it.

 

- MOVE salvation to counfound tier, make it a 2 rank skill. Rank 1 heals for 30% of what is heals now and rank 2 heals for 50% that it actually heals nowadays. Keep mana cost and cast time.

 

- our new 31 point skill is the ultimate barrier of awesomeness. Raise bubble sorb by roughly 10% and makes it crit thus becoming really a contender on the healing area. Make the bubble crit trigger an internal CD of 10 seconds to prevent force potency abuse (im that smart). Give the crit bubble a different animation.

 

- Lower bubble lockout to native 15 seconds. Give us something else for 2 tier bonus for pvp, something like we cant be grappled while blazing speeding "bye sucka" gangsta style.

 

- Redesign force bending effects on dark heal to make it DH be cast while moving (natures grace ftw)

 

- Give us either a dispersion like cooldown, like the shadow priest one. OR a passive dmg reduction CD when were getting dogpiled by your PET CLASSES. Something like 20% dmg reduction 10 secs after bubble burst should be fine. Its important IMO that if you give us a DEF CD that it should not allow us to heal when we are in it, thats why i mentioned shadow priest dispersion. It would generate interesting counterplay options for both teams thus making the game balanced and a hell of fun.

 

Mr. Pack and Paw i love swtor, i love my class, i want to keep playing but you need to fix us, we have awaited for long, please fix us. We are in pain.

 

 

PS: Im sorry if i sound frustated and flammy, but i thats how sage gameplay, even at high skill levels feels, ultimately frustating. No matter what you do, its an uphill battle. Fix us.

 

If you take away our shiny bubble burst, know that you are ultimately killing us, how can you sleep at night, seriously.

 

"THE FUTURE OF PVP IN SWTOR IS A RAIL SHOT HITTING A SAGE IN THE FACE, FOREVER"

_ Believer Orwell

 

 

INC DPS POST, when my mood gets better. =D

[Dan_Beavis]

I literally love every idea you brought. If any of these got implemented I think most sage/sorcs would be more than pleased. I especially like the idea of force bend/conveyance making dark heal/benevolence an instant cast. Kudos to you big time. Sage/sorc is long overdue for some love from the devs.

[Laforet]

"Around the pillars and far away from RWZs, why DPS sorc is awkward for Rateds"

 

 

As promised.

 

As much as i think that healsorc is underpowered in PvP, when i think about stoping PvPing in this game theres always one thought that soothes my mind: "COULD BE WORSE BRO, YOU COULD BE DPS SORC ROFL".

 

I have to say, i feel for my damaging brothers. You are dog, you are ultimately the worst specs in the game. Im sorry.

 

Sorc DPS is unreliable in PvP, while melee is too much reliable in general, the roles that should be availiable to DPS sages have been transfered to other classes by scumbag devs

 

 

Right off the bat, as ranged damage dealers with kiting tools, there are two possible roles for DPS sages in PvP.

 

1st Possible Role - Spike Ranged damager with a spice of control, AKA caster glass cannon.

 

2nd Possible Role - Sustained pressure ranged caster controller, AKA affliction warlock in cataclysm playing RLS.

 

Sorc DPS is none of both. Sorc dps doesnt have burst, sorc DPS doesnt have respectable DoT pressure, sorc DPS has dog survivability , and some degree of control but not enough native control to make them viable.

 

PREPOSTEROUS, SORC HAS LOT CONTROL

 

Think about control for a while. Think about a marauder charging, aweing a bunch of players and sprinting / camoing away. Everything instant, and hard to counter, just press 2 buttons (sometimes one) and you can control half of the enemy team. Think about instant AoE cockbang from scumbag scoundrels. Sorc has nothing of this kind, whats so good about our control anyway? Insta force lift? Thats cool thats cool, but thats pretty much all we have and insta force lift is actually on a longer CD than LOLMARA IM PET CLASS awe and LOL PT MONKEY CLASS point blank AoE stun.

 

BUBBLE BURST IS OP, NERF NERF

 

You have to understand that for a DPS sage to have bubble stun he has to give up almost all of his (already pathetic damage) making him the laughing stock of the galaxy. While bubble stun might be annoying for a charging scumbag, sage has not native control and if they want to take they have to spread thin, thus not having anything other than bubble stun really.

 

 

Sorc DPS is a second class citizen, doesnt have burst, doesnt have native control (has to spec on it), doesnt have sustained pressure, has laughtable survivability in an already low TTK game

 

What sorc dps needs is a freaking NELSON MANDELA to free us from the 1.2 apartheid. But thats not going to happen, instead scumbaggy Pick and Paw is actually going to hurt our only option of control, which is the bubble stun, then you are literally left with nothing.

 

 

Our roles have been taken away from us, and given to other classes

 

In the past sorc used to have decent AoE burst. It was taken from us and given to smash monkeys.

 

Just looks at how a ptech plays. Ptech have insane burst (sticky nade + assault plastique + rail shot x2) if you play your cards right. But look, ptech has insane sustained pressure too, with his DoTs hitting like mad trucks. The archetype of glass cannon caster style has been taken away from us and moved to a highly mobile, heavy armor class. Not to mention they actually have a decent defensive CD (25% dmg reduction 12 sec).

 

So why the hell would you take a sorc when you can take a PT, a sniper? Huttball, im sorry PTs are invaluable on HB because of fire pulls, and sins also have force sprint while being mad OP too.

 

Its obscene, almost pornographic that a class has been left in the dust so long with crap survivability, no burst, no sustained pressure tru dots or whatever, lacks everything really. WHAT ARE YOU GUYS SMOKING BACK THERE AT AUSTIN, I WANT A SNIFF OF BRO, IT MUST BE THE BEST DRUG EVER.

 

But ive seen a video of a sorc 1v1ing people and winning, that makes them good doesnt it?

 

It doesnt. Even as a healer spec, i can prolly solo any fool that tries to gun me solo. But thats more granted to the general incompetence of players playing pet classes than the might of our own class.

 

And, as the old mantra goes, RWZs arent about 1v1. Even in a 1v1, a sorc would take a long time to kill someone, thus giving the person time to LoS or make the call and kill the sage in 6 seconds.

 

The bottom line is, YOU CANT KITE TWO PEOPLE, YOU CANT KITE A WHOLE FREAKING RWZ TEAM FULL OF DEVS PET CLASSES.

 

And even if youre a god and actually kites a person, what good is that doing? You cant kill anyone fast enuff to snatch a node after all.

 

In real MMOs, kiting classes punish the players who are being kited. Be kited by a sage doesnt yield almost any punishment to the one being kited since the sage will take will take ages to kill him anyway, with the plethora of anti kiting tools almost every class has (stuns, pulls, short term invisiblility, sprints, better snares, multiple slows) makes pointless to play this kiting clown.

 

Just compare the experience of being kited by sage the experience of being kited by a mage in WoW. Thats what im talking about. Mages give something in trade for skilled kiting, sages give nothing. So everytime a sage steps in a WZ people are just going to dog on it and theres no drawback really.

 

When i look at our DPS trees i really wonder that the Devs dont know what to do with us. TK / Light is a lame self rooting low DPS trash survivability tree. Plays the same catch-22 as a seer healer. If you wanna damage, you have to stop, but if you stop, you are dead. So you cant damage, so you cant move, so they dogpile and smash your face and youre done bye. Oh and btw were taking away bubble stun.

 

Balance / madness is also laughable, it doesnt have survivability, burst, AoE or pressure really. Its a kiting monkey, a target practice for the PET CLASSES of Pack and Paugh. It also runs out of force 1 minute into the fight. Some ****** class design here i must say.

 

Sage DPS needs something, it needs something BADLY. Lets see if we can help our clueless devs here.

 

- You must stop smoking weed and bang your heads together, DPS trees must have an overall design around it. If TK tree is suposed to be burst cast, they have to burst high to compensate for their trash survivability, and they have to have some kind of tool to AT LEAST fight back when under heavy pressure.

 

- The dispersion shadow priest like CD should be implemented for DPS, should be baseline for. Would rock.

 

- Again, as you must develop a more well rounded design for PvP light, the same must be done for balance. It would be kickass if balance pvp worked like a crazy shadow priest / affliction lock, with low single target burst but melting face pressure on the enemy team, it would be an excellent couter to sawbones healing, your out of wack spolied princess healing class, god knows they deserve one. They need better DoTs, better innate survivability while keeping some of the kiting tools. Just unleash our power on kickass DoTs coupled along with the dispersion CD, would make us desirable *****es in a RWZ, also making the meta game more fun than just "OK GUSY LETS STACK MARA PT AND WE ALL DOGPILE THE SAME TARGET OK 123 GO KILL ROFL IM SO SKILLZOR".

 

Sincerely, sage DPS is a mess, its a testament of incompetence and scumbaggyness.

 

Fix it bro, we have waited too long, its time to fix us. Just envision a role to our trees and start developing around it INSTEAD OF DEVELOPING OUR CLASS BASED ON WHAT OTHER (PET) CLASSES THINK ABOUT US WHY YOU DONT DEVELOP US AROUND OUR OWN STYLE.

 

The only thing you are doing is serving our heads in a silver platter to any melee heavy team, since 1.2. No wonder you lost that many subs and PvP is kind of dead around all servers. You ARE NOT DOING A GOOD JOB in balancing us and we are bad. Someone must say it, i call it like i see it. Its not good, its not good enought, you need to step up and be more creative, you need to do it now, its already too long.

 

The bottom line is, our devs develop based on their pet class impressions of us and not around any unique playstile, thats why we are trash. In the story of SWTOR development, we are being tored apart patch by patch. Everytime a marauder cries about something cool we can do, Pick and Pay puts his thinking cap on and thinks about new and inventive ways to put us down. We arent a fun class, we a frustating class and thats excactly where the PET CLASSES want us to be. Marauders complain about us being too stronk but all they do is tunnel vision us 24/7, all that under Pack and Paughs Bandwagon.

 

I applaud you all!

Edited December 24, 2012 by Laforet

[islander]

As a long time sorc healer in various capcities (full, hybrid) and someone who's a PvPer 90% of my time on him, Believer here is completely on the mark with his well thought out analysis of the current state of the class. I can't buy my way onto a good ranked team, it's lol pugging and constant losses or nothing.

 

Essentially, I do well in unranked because of general skill level, but when I face a 4 man pre-made of similar quality players in the various OP classes, I get crushed.

 

Well done sir.

Edited December 24, 2012 by islander

[Edonidd]

The problem is Sorcerers actually are one of the very best in the game at solo PvE. And are one of the most played classes in the game. So they decide they can't really buff us. But then they take away our abilities in PvP (only classes that have PvE abilities removed in PvP are sorcs and merc... hmmm) We have an ability we are able to spend spec points on that allows our whirlwind to affect additional targets, but it only works in PvE. Speaking of Whirlwind, that and Concussion Missile by Merecenaries are great in PvE. I have tried some flashpoints where the only CC we had were flashbangs or Intimidating Roar. Let me tell you, both of those suck as CC in PvE. In PvP they last just as long as our Whirlwind on the same CD, but they both affect multiple targets and are both instant cast.

 

Give us a 60 second CC in WZ's and then see who is still crying about bubble stun. Or since they cut down the effect of whirlwind by 90% cut down the CD by 90% . In PvE we have a 60 second effect and a 60 second CD, in PvP we have a 6 second effect and a 60 second CD? No give us a 6 second CD too. Let the crying commence

 

Since they can't give us more CC which our class was designed around, and they can't give us burst that would be commiserate with our lack of defenses, since smash is already the most complained about thing in game, and Mara's and Juggs have at least 2x our survivability so we would have to do 14k auto-crits to be truly balanced with them. So give us something.

 

We have 3 dot's and many consider Madness to be a DOT class. Affliction and Creeping Terror both do about 2k damage, and spread that over 15 seconds. They tick every 3 seconds. Ticks do not interrupt caps, casting, channeling, or stealth. They do break our whirlwind. First off, Affliction needs a CD. Nothing hurts our class more than people tab DOTing with affliction, spreading out 2k dmg over 15 seconds to 6-8 people looks really cool on the scoreboard at the end of the match, but actually has a net negative effect on you and your team as you aren't doing anything useful in that fight. Plus people see those huge damage scores at the end of a fight and assume everything is fine with Sorcs. Deathfield (and Deathmark) has a 15 second CD, Crushing Darkness has a 15 second CD, Creeping terror has a 15 second CD. Put Affliction on that same CD.. Triple the damage by all DOT's, make Deathmark affect every tick over its duration. DOT's are able to be dispelled and it takes a lot of work to put a deathfield, and 3 dots onto one target. It should be doing more damage than abilities that are instant cast with 0 set-up. Risk-reward.

 

Conversely make the duration shorter, the ticks faster, make them interrupt stealth (those guys need a predator) and captures, and lower the CD's of Crushing Darkness and Creping Terror. And make all of our DOT's AoE up to 5 targets like corrosive grenade. Make Crushing Darkness always insta cast (seriously a 3 second CD for that?) and make wrath procs just give a flat 20% bonus to our next 2 abilities. Deathfield has to affect up to 5 additional targets though, not 3 (it is less than smash, orbital strike, deathfrom above, etc. anyways) and deathmark has to affect all ticks, not just the first 10 (specced right, we have 19 ticks of DOT I believe). Risk v Reward.

 

Risk vs. Reward is the foundation of game theory, it's something that the makers of a game should be intimately familiar with. No offense intended, but whoever designed some of these classes and mechanics has never heard of Game Theory or Risk vs Reward. Risk vs Reward says the risk of dying faster with less flat damage mitigation from armor, compounded by the risk of having the least defensive Cooldown abilities of any class in the game should be met with a reward equal to that risk. Trade-offs. Bioware started out with D20 games, and character creation. Original Bioware was intimately familiar with Risk vs Reward and Game Theory. This current Bioware is obviously just a shell of its former self, but it is sullying everything the name Bioware was built on.

[Laforet]

There's too much here to comment on, but I noticed a lot of people repeating "the bubble is getting nerfed. BW already said so." So I figured that could use some clarification.

 

We're currently undergoing a lot of class rebalance for a future major patch, so it's an understatement to say that things aren't locked down yet. However, the problem with Backlash (Lightning's incapacitate on Static Barrier) is mostly that it can be applied to any target, making an entire team of allies stun-bubbled. Since this is such great utility for the Lightning Sorcerer, we don't want to change the effect of Backlash, but we are considering making the Backlash effect only apply to the original caster - so you only get a Backlash when you put your Static Barrier on yourself.

 

That's just the current idea. We don't have any plans on making Static Barrier or Backlash worse than it currently is for the Sorcerer that uses it.

 

We're aware that even this change lowers the amount of group support Lightning offers, so that's something we have to figure out before we can pull the trigger on Backlash.

 

I wish I could tell you guys more, but there isn't enough locked down yet. Rest assured, it's not as simple as "too good - nerf. Next."

 

Theres so much to comment on your post, that i feel i have to explain why i use the word scumbag when i refer to the so called "SWTOR balance team".

 

The bubble buff wasnt a mistake on an oversight that is now being corrected. While i agree that the pre 1.2 double dip was a non intended bug that had to be fixed the bubble stun buff was thought and tested, it wasnt an error.

 

Why is that so important? Because it was thought and tested, and it was approved, BUT MONTHS LATER THEY GOT CAVED IN BECAUSE SOME MARAUDERS CRIED ON FORUMS. The PvP team actually caved in when the marauder kids cried all over.

 

What right does a marauder / juggie has tro cry about something in SWTOR? Marauders are the only MANDATORY AC in a RWZ because carnage group predation is just too good. Even if you play like dog you might make into a rated team as a carnage mara because we just need predation.

 

Marauders and Juggies have top dps in PvP, both in terms of burst and sustained, while having at least 3x more survivability than the other dps classes. Marauders actually have 3 working and beatifully streamlined specs for PvP, each one attending to a unique playstile but all very competitive. Juggies have LOLSMASH which is over the top, but vengeance is also decent for PvP, although it doesnt have a lot of burst its very good for huttball (hello ball carrier pull JK invulnerability).

 

Marauders and Jugs facerrol their way into any warzone, having excellent CC (hello instant AoE mez), excellent survivability (hello multiple defensive CDs) and several ways of locking down any caster (JK force choke, push, cast spell on lolmara? JK IN COMBAT STEALTH).

 

They can actually overextend their healers and get away with it with their "balanced" cooldowns, no other DPS class can do it, not even powertechs.

 

All of this, on top of incredibly good DPS, if not the highest potential DPS in PvP area with their "balanced" smash spec.

 

Months of playing with this height of imbalance actually created a full generation of "spoiled" players. Players who complain about bubble burst but they dont realise that charging a sage upfront is not the best strategy ever. Players that dont realise our bubble is so weak that 3 ticks of force choke will actually break if from a safe distance.

 

The dev team caved to this kind of players, they actually caved in, its unbeliveable.

 

You deserve your title.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Laforet

[Darkallex]

What I like most in this thread is how mature the community has become.

It's not just a qq thread of ppl crying out,but seems like one with ppl that have realized what the vital problems of sorcs are atm.I don't see even players from other classes interfearing in here just to troll with posts like "take your nerf and sit tight now...you were op for 3 months",as it was happening close to 1.2,which shows that even players of other classes know that sorcs need a fix.I' ll talk only in terms of dps as I've never played a healer in swtor and the only healing class I've played in my 6 years experience of mmos was a shaman in wow.

There are things I wanted to suggest that look logical atm:

1.A madness based spec should have its basic dot,affliction,hitting harder.I laugh at the fact that my biggest crit of affliction on a full wh player is around 600 while other classes' dots hit me with 900 while I am at 1350 expertise.

2.Chain lightning should be put back into wrath proc.I don't think that this would affect a lot the current pvp situation anyways cause many classes have aoe avoidance and the spell itself isn 't hitting that hard.2,5-3k on 3 targets would be nothing compaired to the 7-9k aoe others can pull.It would just give to madness or hybrid specs a bit more burst.

If you don 't wanna bring chain lightning back,then something has to be given to strenghten lightning strike when being cast by wrath proc.

3.Change bubble stun to work only for the caster.This will stop the whole qq from melee players about the chain stuns and will avoid us from being taken something else that will nerf our survivability even more.

4.As for lightning....I don't know what to think of.The whole spec needs a format.The bread and butter of this spec is TB.It's a very powerfull spell BUT it has a cd and a casting time.So as long as this spec is easy to shut down,they should give it something that would make us a threat of burst at least when TB isn't on cd.

I was thinking about a talent that gives lightning strike a % to reduce next TB's cast time and to stuck for 2-3 times so that TB could be casted at around 1sec.

5.This last thing is bothering me for a long time.A full lightning tree can't get wrath.So lightning barrage is a crap talent to be in lightning tree.I really don't care for a proc in my secondary filler.I would prefer instead a talent that gives a buff to our main filler.lightning strike.like a stucking vulnerability or slow.

 

Oh btw....something last that I've been hearing from the whole ranged dps community.One of the biggest fails of BW on ranged classes was the nerfing of our small cc into 10m.They have to reconsider that as long as the whole strategy against a warrior is to keep him away.If he comes close then you are sure dead.Atm warriors don t even struggle for the main difficulty of their class....how to reach ranged!!

 

Merry x-mas to every1

[Laforet]

One interesting point that has been raised how facerrolish overpowered and too reliable melee are in this game, when were talking PvP.

 

If you make a list of highly sucessful rated teams all around you will notice that the great majority of them are melee heavy teams. At least it was like that on Fatman, i have never seen a highly RWZ team with more than one ranged DPS.

 

This makes our life even worse since melee pressure train IS the counter to our caster / ranged playstile, be it healing or DPS caster, since we can easily LoS any ranged damage dealer.

 

What SWTOR dev team doesnt realise is that, they HAVE TO nerf melee (i consider ptech melee) to make the PvP more competitive because if they actually buff us and mandos to melee level well be madly overpowered and the game would turn into a 1 shot fest.

 

The problem is, the scumbags think melee is actually balanced, they think its a coincidence that sage and mandos are the worst classes in game. THEY ARE THE WORST CLASSES IN GAME BECAUSE THEY ARE RAPED BY MELEE, IS THAT SO HARD TO SEE FOR PETES SAKE.

 

What about sniper yo?

 

Sniper is ranged, they are also immune to charge and have hunker down, they also can burst as hard as a melee, if they play their cards right. That is why sniper is the only viable ranged class in rateds. And even tho they are viable, teams dont ever take more than one sniper, and most of the time their primary job is to AoE cap areas with that neverending probe.

 

Why? While snipers are a kickass balanced class, with good decent burst and means to fight back and control the melee wave, they take a little more finesse to play and they cant overextend.

 

Melee is too good, its too easy, too much straightfoward. While straightfoward "frontliner" deserve their place in the PvP world, the level of dominance they have achieved in SWTOR is totally out of proportion.

 

This brings me to the matter of bubble bursting affecting other people than the sage.

 

FRIENDLY BUBBLE BURST IS THE ONLY THING IN THE META GAME THAT KEEPS OVERPOWERED MELEE TRAIN IN CHECK.

 

Its the only think that keeps them from actually annihilating a whole team in a matter of a few globals, thats why they hate it. And if the scumbags actually remove it without nerfing them its going to be the end for ranged, really, there will be no hope.

 

Now bear with me and think about the story of SWTOR development. Apart from scrapper (which is in the gutter too btw) not a single melee train spec has been toned down since day one. On the contrary, all they receive is buffs and fixes. If you check the all time patch notes of SWTOR, in ALMOST EVERY SINGLE DAMN PATCH weve seen buffs or fixes for the melee classes, either by straight buffing or fixing their abilities so they work "faster", the only exception being minor tone downs to annihilation tree that almost dont affect PvP and downgrade of LOLMARA SUPERMAN SKILL for 4 seconds, which doesnt make a difference really, they are still OP as ****.

 

Just look at the way they "nerf" powertech. The 1st powertech "nerf" came in 1.2, they put a ICD on rail shot. While it prevented the aberration of rail shot proccing 3 times in a row, since the proc chance went way up, it made the powertech damage more reliable and actually PUMPED UP both their burst and sustained. I know that because my wife plays a vanguard and her damage actually went way up with 1.2 "nerf" because she knows she can make it proc roughly every 6 seconds instead of sitting and waiting for god procs. It was a buff.

 

Think about the second powertech "nerf". They nerfed the slow, which was like the worst decision EVER because now ptechs are free kills to maras / sins since they cant kite them anymore (50% vs. 30% slow). But hey, while their range was reduced (non issue for ptechs btw, they were always melee) THEYR BURST ACTUALLY WENT UP. How so? Well assault plastique doest share a CD with sitck grenade anymore so they can just stick both grenades and time their 6 sec proc to make everything blow almost instantly, effectivelly killing people in a 2 or 3 globals if they play their cards right. It was a buff.

 

That is the point when i stop believing the ability of this development team to actually fix this game. They just love their melee-ish PET CLASSES and take a dump on ranged classes now and them (except sniper, i guess some dev loves sniper).

 

Look what the way they "nerf" their non stealthy frontline melee classes, even thought half the world knows that they are OP and that RWZ teams only take non stealthy melee, now look at the way they destroyed sage mandos and scrappers continuously.

 

Even if they buff us, its going to be a slighty fix. Like they did in 1.4, they PRETENDED to buff us to make us viable but were still not viable and while they were announcing the GREAT FIX FOR SAGES AND MANDOS YO, they actually MADE A STEALTH BUFF TO SMASH, GOD KNOWS WHY.

 

Thats how they work.

 

There will be no hope for us while they dont nerf melee, and they will never do it, they also wont buff us to the powerlevel wielded by their pet classes because that literally would mean that we could do like 15k damage in two globals, so strong and reliable they are.

 

Instead, they will actually remove from the game the only thing that keeps melee training partially in check, which is friendly bubble burst.

 

The thing with friendly bubble burst is that, instead of killing people under focus in 2 globals, melee trains take like 2 globals and 3 seconds to do it, which actually gives a (small) chance of healing tru all that smash and fighting back. With friendly bubble burst gone, its going to be boom boom smash everyone dead, RWZ will be decided on who smashed who first and ranged will totally dissapear, with the exception of one sniper here and there.

 

Scumbag developer is scumbag, what fcan we say?

[TheNahash]

FRIENDLY BUBBLE BURST IS THE ONLY THING IN THE META GAME THAT KEEPS OVERPOWERED MELEE TRAIN IN CHECK.

...

The thing with friendly bubble burst is that, instead of killing people under focus in 2 globals, melee trains take like 2 globals and 3 seconds to do it, which actually gives a (small) chance of healing tru all that smash and fighting back. With friendly bubble burst gone, its going to be boom boom smash everyone dead, RWZ will be decided on who smashed who first and ranged will totally dissapear, with the exception of one sniper here and there.

 

Scumbag developer is scumbag, what fcan we say?

 

Take a look at this:

 

Granted, this was obviously made for fun and it might not work out exactly like that in real situations but the fact alone that it can work like that, means that there's something that needs to be fixed.

 

Stunning, rooting, snaring or whatever the hell it is...this game has way too much of it already. It's pretty obvious that they never thought back when they were first designing the Corruption tree, that healers would ever be willing to give up their Aoe heal and that's how we ended up with a hybrid that takes both Efficacious Currents and Backlash. And the truth is that at launch, with the lower cast time of Dark Infusion and the free Consumption, there was no need to.

 

My point is this: When healers are willing to give up one of their most important heals just to survive, it means that there's obviously something wrong with the balance and it should be addressed.

 

But, personally, I wholeheartedly support anything that removes one of (what it feels like) millions of CCs and stuns in this game. I wish that one day Star Wars will finally seize to be Stun Wars and that goes for ALL classes.

 

We must demand a change to our survivability and/or healing. NOT support one more root.

 

So I agree with what the mod proposed (making it only for bubbles cast on ourselves). They could even give it a chance of applying to bubbles we cast on others (like 15%/30%) so that we could keep it but not abuse it.

 

PS: I agree with pretty much all the rest of your post. Although, I do not think that calling people names helps in any way...

Edited December 25, 2012 by TheNahash

[Laforet]

Take a look at this:

 

 

 

Ok bro, the video shows a bunch of smart players using their skills in a smart way to control the opponents.

 

Thats cool thas cool, but really any skill from several classes in the game can be used to give massive advantages when smart players use them, when they play their cards right.

 

Once i have played a ranked huttball match and the other team had 4 fire pullers on it (1 ptech 3 tankasins), so everytime my team got the ball whoever was carrying it was literraly fire pulled 3 times in a row. No matter what we did to stop it, since half of their team was a puller, our ball carrier always ended in the fire.

 

We can say the same about guard, we can say the same about smart players using taunt and making people tank like 6 dps on top of them (ive seem it happen).

 

I dunno if theres a video about it, but have you ever seen what happens with a non bubble sage when he/she gets focused by 2 smashers? Smash hits a EWH sage for over than 6k, force scream hits for over than 5k, thats more than 20k damage in a few globals.

 

You can say the sage deservers to die because two smash monkeys ganged up on them, and youre not wrong, the problem is, if i have a class that dies in 2 globals and another class that can live for like 5 globals thus giving the friendly team a chance to react and try to stop the smash monkey attack, people will obviously bring the 3 global guy.

 

"But but but, non bubble sage still has knock back"

 

Yeah, and smashers have another charge, this move actually crits for 3k on a EWH geared sage.

 

That sage is extremely underpowered is a fact. Is bubble stun OP? I really dont know, its debatable, we can talk all night about the implications of bubble stun (2 nights if we have some good beer) but the underliying question is:

 

WHILE BUBBLE BURST CAN BE VIEWED AS OP BY SOME POINT OF VIEW (especially the point of view of melee train) ITS ACTUALLY THE ONLY THING THAT KEEPS US SEMI-VIABLE.

 

Im talking about both self and friendly bubble stun. Without friendly bubblestun, a hybrid sage cannot heal the kind of damage smash / ptech can do without the bubble relief.

 

If they knockout friendly blind, bubble sage might still be a pain to kill, but we wont be able to buy time to our team before the big smash attack anymore, thus hurting our viability for RWZs.

 

What about full heals?

 

Its kinda cool, some people can make it work, but the question is: full heals needs constantly babysitting to put up respectable perfonmances, sawbones healing will but equal (if not better) performance with less peels, more control and MORE UTILITY?

 

MOAR UTILITY, PREPOSTEROUS!!!!!!

 

Non hybrid sage utility:

- friendly pulls for huttballin

 

 

Sawbones utility:

- smuggle

- stealth (sapcap)

 

 

Hybrid sage utility:

- friendly pulls

- BUBBLESTUN YAY

- rooting knockback (kickass)

 

I thin that pretty much underlies our situation, as long as the game stays this way, as long as classes have multiple stuns, instant aoe mezzes, pulls, pushes, double snares (carnage mara says hi) and multiple charges (hello smash knock me JK ANOTHER CHARGE) "overpowered" bubble stun doesnt look so OP.

 

I respect your opinion brother, but i still think i am right on the matter.

 

Merry xmas.

[islander]

The short version question is this: Why is it only a hybrid healer is ever wanted by competitive ranked groups (if at all)?

 

Second, why is it they are ONLY WANTED for their bubble stun? Not a single thing else they provide that a similarly skilled operative can provide. In fact, in normal warzones when I outperform an operative I give myself an extra pat on the back, because I knew I worked harder to do it.

[Mooseondaloose]

I think i may have hit on something here ,but what a about a skill (you could call it fear or whatever) that your invincible or like a 30-50% damage reduction to people within 5m for like 5-8 seconds. put it on a 1 to 2 minute cd. that way if melee decides its all that and jumps on you, pop that and absorb part (or all) of there ridiculous smash or scream. plus it doesn't screw up pve either, nor does it make it more of a stun fest. then throw a high level talent in madness to lower the cooldown or extend the duration, to balance the utility between lightning and madness. and the cherry on top would be the animation. four juggs come flying at you then they start cowering, and your like COME AT ME BRO

 

and if this has been posted i'm sorry, didn't wanna read 50+ pages

Edited December 26, 2012 by Mooseondaloose

[Monterone]

Lotsa good suggestions here OP. Although, personally, here's what I'd like to see for Corruption changes. It would work wonders for mobility.

 

Make Force Bending change the Dark Heal to an instant HoT that heals for the same amount it does now. Perhaps over 8-10 seconds. Each tick can crit, of course. Now move the +60% crit chance from DH force bending over to DI. Lower the cost of DI by 5 force as you said.

 

This guarantees that the super long cast on DI is worth it, when you know there will be a big heal at the end. 2.5 sec cast with a pretty high force cost should guarantee a big heal through increased crit rate. And the Dark Heal converted to a HoT means that a sorc also now has a tool to use on the move, albeit at a fairly high force cost.

 

Good work, OP.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Monterone

[TheNahash]

Ok bro, the video shows a bunch of smart players using their skills in a smart way to control the opponents.

 

Thats cool thas cool, but really any skill from several classes in the game can be used to give massive advantages when smart players use them, when they play their cards right.

 

Once i have played a ranked huttball match and the other team had 4 fire pullers on it (1 ptech 3 tankasins), so everytime my team got the ball whoever was carrying it was literraly fire pulled 3 times in a row. No matter what we did to stop it, since half of their team was a puller, our ball carrier always ended in the fire.

 

 

Not really. At least not really the same since the pullers you mentioned can only pull people themselves; they can't transfer their ability to each and every one of their teammates. To make it even simpler, a sorcerer can bubble the entire team (and it's quite easy to do so) and ALL of his teammates would be able to stun their opponents. Tankassins and PTs would only be able to pull people into the fire themselves. So, essentially, we are talking about an ability that was supposed to help the sorcerers/sages survive being abused to make crow control even worse than it already is.

 

Just to make it clear, I hate Maras/Sents. I mean, I do hate them because they're op, but I actually mean that I hate the way the class plays. I have 4 sorcs/sages and not even one Mara . So this is all coming from the perspective of a sorcerer who of course would love to see his survivability go up.

 

We can say the same about guard, we can say the same about smart players using taunt and making people tank like 6 dps on top of them (ive seem it happen).

 

Ah, but you see here's the thing: taunting and guarding are two of the most important abilities Tanks have. No hybrids needed. It is actually the only two things a tank really has to know to be any good in either PVP or PVE: taunt and guard the right people. And I actually think they have been implemented extremely well in this game's PVP system, compared to games where tanks are essentially useless in PVP.

 

The problem however is that tanks DO.NOT.GUARD. I don't get why. I don't know if it's because they don't know that both taunting and guarding works in PVP (I'd hope that after 1 year they'd know...). Every single video you'll find of any Sorc worth his salt, is a video of a sorcerer being guarded. We keep them alive, they should at least reciprocate by helping us survive too.

 

But I digress. Guarding and taunting are the main mechanics of tanking, so no I don't agree that they're at all similar to the bubble stun.

 

I dunno if theres a video about it, but have you ever seen what happens with a non bubble sage when he/she gets focused by 2 smashers? Smash hits a EWH sage for over than 6k, force scream hits for over than 5k, thats more than 20k damage in a few globals.

 

You can say the sage deservers to die because two smash monkeys ganged up on them, and youre not wrong, the problem is, if i have a class that dies in 2 globals and another class that can live for like 5 globals thus giving the friendly team a chance to react and try to stop the smash monkey attack, people will obviously bring the 3 global guy.

 

Here's how I see it: If a good player is getting ganged up by more than 2 other good players, he should die. No matter what class or armor they're wearing, he should die. If they don't, then somewhere there's a problem. You're not supposed to live through the damage of 3 other people. Sure you should be able to kite them for a while until friendlies come and help you take them down and tanks should of course survive a bit longer than the rest, but all in all If a good player is ganged up by equally skilled players, he should go down.

 

The Sage/Sorc in particular "deserves" to die if he's just strolling around the warzone, feeling high and mighty, trying to cap nodes himself We need to realize that we are a support class. We are not supposed to be in the first line of the battle. We need people to help us survive and utilities that can help us kite our opponents. THAT's why I'm saying that we should keep the bubble stun when we're talking about bubbles cast on ourselves but not on friendlies. This is supposed to help us survive and kite. Not turn the warzone into a (even worse) stunfest.

 

 

"But but but, non bubble sage still has knock back"

 

Yeah, and smashers have another charge, this move actually crits for 3k on a EWH geared sage.

 

That sage is extremely underpowered is a fact. Is bubble stun OP? I really dont know, its debatable, we can talk all night about the implications of bubble stun (2 nights if we have some good beer) but the underliying question is:

 

WHILE BUBBLE BURST CAN BE VIEWED AS OP BY SOME POINT OF VIEW (especially the point of view of melee train) ITS ACTUALLY THE ONLY THING THAT KEEPS US SEMI-VIABLE.

Im talking about both self and friendly bubble stun. Without friendly bubblestun, a hybrid sage cannot heal the kind of damage smash / ptech can do without the bubble relief.

 

If they knockout friendly blind, bubble sage might still be a pain to kill, but we wont be able to buy time to our team before the big smash attack anymore, thus hurting our viability for RWZs..

 

The issue you're referring to is true and you are right; we can't heal that kind of damage without the bubble relief.

However, I still personally think that there are alternatives that don't include stunning everything that moves.

 

How about buffing the damage the bubble can take before it breaks? Or giving us an insta-heal similar to Unnatural Preservation/Force Mend that would be on a longer cooldown but could be used on others too?

 

And let's be honest here. If someone is just sitting there being hit by 2-3 people without using his defensive cooldowns or trying to stun and move away, NOTHING we do can save him. The 5 second bubble stun will not save him, because he will be doing damage trying to get the attackers off him, so the stun would break after 2 secs.

 

MOAR UTILITY, PREPOSTEROUS!!!!!!

 

Non hybrid sage utility:

- friendly pulls for huttballin

 

 

Sawbones utility:

- smuggle

- stealth (sapcap)

 

 

Hybrid sage utility:

- friendly pulls

- BUBBLESTUN YAY

- rooting knockback (kickass)

 

I thin that pretty much underlies our situation, as long as the game stays this way, as long as classes have multiple stuns, instant aoe mezzes, pulls, pushes, double snares (carnage mara says hi) and multiple charges (hello smash knock me JK ANOTHER CHARGE) "overpowered" bubble stun doesnt look so OP.

 

I respect your opinion brother, but i still think i am right on the matter.

 

Merry xmas.

 

I'll give you stealth-capping, but smuggle/infiltrate is really not that useful. It can be randomly useful but only in very specific situations and only if we're talking about premade teams, where people know that they're not supposed to use any of their abilities or they'll go out of stealth.

 

And I respect your opinion. I even agree with most of what you're saying. But I hate the stunfest that is PVP in Star Wars and considering a new level cap is coming soon(ish) I'd like Bioware to move away from the notion that stun-stun-stun is a viable and fun way to PVP and move on to better ideas. Especially, defensive cooldowns for classes that go down pretty easily and thus people regard as easy kills in wzs.

[islander]

Well the one thing I will continue to be annoyed at is this: In pugs, when someone guards me in the heat of battle, I have NO IDEA who did it.

 

There's no indication of who guards you, I hate this.

[Laforet]

Not really. At least not really the same since the pullers you mentioned can only pull people themselves; they can't transfer their ability to each and every one of their teammates. To make it even simpler, a sorcerer can bubble the entire team (and it's quite easy to do so) and ALL of his teammates would be able to stun their opponents. Tankassins and PTs would only be able to pull people into the fire themselves. So, essentially, we are talking about an ability that was supposed to help the sorcerers/sages survive being abused to make crow control even worse than it already is.

 

Just to make it clear, I hate Maras/Sents. I mean, I do hate them because they're op, but I actually mean that I hate the way the class plays. I have 4 sorcs/sages and not even one Mara . So this is all coming from the perspective of a sorcerer who of course would love to see his survivability go up.

 

 

 

Ah, but you see here's the thing: taunting and guarding are two of the most important abilities Tanks have. No hybrids needed. It is actually the only two things a tank really has to know to be any good in either PVP or PVE: taunt and guard the right people. And I actually think they have been implemented extremely well in this game's PVP system, compared to games where tanks are essentially useless in PVP.

 

The problem however is that tanks DO.NOT.GUARD. I don't get why. I don't know if it's because they don't know that both taunting and guarding works in PVP (I'd hope that after 1 year they'd know...). Every single video you'll find of any Sorc worth his salt, is a video of a sorcerer being guarded. We keep them alive, they should at least reciprocate by helping us survive too.

 

But I digress. Guarding and taunting are the main mechanics of tanking, so no I don't agree that they're at all similar to the bubble stun.

 

 

 

Here's how I see it: If a good player is getting ganged up by more than 2 other good players, he should die. No matter what class or armor they're wearing, he should die. If they don't, then somewhere there's a problem. You're not supposed to live through the damage of 3 other people. Sure you should be able to kite them for a while until friendlies come and help you take them down and tanks should of course survive a bit longer than the rest, but all in all If a good player is ganged up by equally skilled players, he should go down.

 

The Sage/Sorc in particular "deserves" to die if he's just strolling around the warzone, feeling high and mighty, trying to cap nodes himself We need to realize that we are a support class. We are not supposed to be in the first line of the battle. We need people to help us survive and utilities that can help us kite our opponents. THAT's why I'm saying that we should keep the bubble stun when we're talking about bubbles cast on ourselves but not on friendlies. This is supposed to help us survive and kite. Not turn the warzone into a (even worse) stunfest.

 

 

 

 

The issue you're referring to is true and you are right; we can't heal that kind of damage without the bubble relief.

However, I still personally think that there are alternatives that don't include stunning everything that moves.

 

How about buffing the damage the bubble can take before it breaks? Or giving us an insta-heal similar to Unnatural Preservation/Force Mend that would be on a longer cooldown but could be used on others too?

 

And let's be honest here. If someone is just sitting there being hit by 2-3 people without using his defensive cooldowns or trying to stun and move away, NOTHING we do can save him. The 5 second bubble stun will not save him, because he will be doing damage trying to get the attackers off him, so the stun would break after 2 secs.

 

 

 

I'll give you stealth-capping, but smuggle/infiltrate is really not that useful. It can be randomly useful but only in very specific situations and only if we're talking about premade teams, where people know that they're not supposed to use any of their abilities or they'll go out of stealth.

 

And I respect your opinion. I even agree with most of what you're saying. But I hate the stunfest that is PVP in Star Wars and considering a new level cap is coming soon(ish) I'd like Bioware to move away from the notion that stun-stun-stun is a viable and fun way to PVP and move on to better ideas. Especially, defensive cooldowns for classes that go down pretty easily and thus people regard as easy kills in wzs.

 

 

The problem is, my brother, is that they certainly arent removing the other classes "game changing skill" as i would say.

 

My argument is not that friendly bubble stun equals taunt, or guard, or fire pulls, or stealth.

 

My argument is, EVERY CLASS IN THE GAME SEEMS TO HAVE A "GAME CHANGER DOMINANT" SKILL. Meaning a damn powerful / useful skill that can literally change a whole rated game when used on spot.

 

I dont know if you play RWZs a lot, im assuming you dont. You see HB RWZ is a very depth game. You have to control middle, you have to attack, to score, and to defend. Mid gives possesion, but without attacking plays your ball carrier is a sitting duck, when you dont have the ball you need defense.

 

Everything you do in HB, all this complications can be thwarthed easily by a team stacking mad pullers.

 

A team stacking mad pullers doesnt need mid, they dont need attacking plays because even if they lose the ball on attack they can still fire pull in the enemy side of the pit and keep going. They gain massive advantages with no downside really, especially because the puller classes are madly overpowered in the current metagame (hybrid sin and ptech).

 

So a team that stacks fire pullers has MASSIVE advantage over a team who doesnt (in HB), coupled with the fact that a person with no resolve can be pulled to the fire 3 times in a row, it makes a frustating experience.

 

Yet, no one has ever complained about it, no developer has ever "promised" the community a fire pull nerf. No threads have been made in the forums crying rivers about fire pulling stacking in RWZ teams.

 

Why? Because fire pulls dont affect the melee echoing chamber which is the SWTOR PvP community nowadays.

 

I guarantee you, 4 fire pullers in a decent team, communicating with vent in a RWZ in WAY, JUST WAY MORE ANNOYING than a bubble sorc. Especially because you cant really stack bubble stuns, you can only have one, bubbles dont overlay.

 

And talking about this? Really how many bubble sorcs are there? Seriously. On my server only a few sages take PvP seriously (like people that are in the best ranked teams etc) and less than 10% actually spec bubble burst. If i was doing statistics, bubble burst is present in less than half of the WZs played at P5, while melee dominance IS present in like 90% of them. Even with the bubble burst thing, most sorcs still play full heals or full balance, is that really an "endemic" problem that needs to go? IT DOESNT LOOK LIKE IT FOR ME.

 

You didnt understand the thing about smashers ganging upon a sage with no bubble. When two people gang up upon one that person is going to die yes. But the TIME IT TAKES TO KILL SOMEONE UNDER FOCUS FIRE MATTERS A LOT IN RWZs, every second counts. So if you have a class that die in seconds and another class that can poop instan aoe cockbang to buy a few seconds for peels / heals, what class would you take?

 

Now imagine 2 sages playing a 2v2 in a RWZ against a sawbones / happy melee train duo. THE ONLY CHANCE the sages have is one of them being a healer with friendly bubble stun to protect not only himself but his partner. If we lose friendly bubble burst its always going to be impossible to a sage team win a 2v2 or 3v3 if the other team has melee train + scoundrel healer, zero chance, nada, better run away or /stuck. And believe me, more often than not, RWZs are decided in 2v2 / 3v3 skirmishes on a node / voidstar door.

 

In all theese situations, what makes sages semi-viable is the bubble burst.

 

Even with friendly bubble busrt and hybrid control heals, sages are still outclassed by the sheer healing power of a sawbones, or the unremitting wave of blows and major control that a marauders wield. Stun bubble just delays the inevitable, sages go down against melee, they go down fast.

 

Melees in general, and marauders in special, have MAJOR advantages over anyone else, they control their fights from start to finish, with superior burst, mobility, defenses and survivability, and the only thing that stops them is bubble burst, even tho, we are talking about bad marauders here.

 

The big problem with bubble burst is that it FORCES unskilled players to play a more tactical / less zergy strategy. If you see a person with a stun bubble, why the hell do you charge him? Why dont you saber throw / force choke from a "safe" distance to pop it? Full EWH bubbles dont even heal more than 3k damage! Why dont the marauders cant coordinate with their ranged partners to burst bubble than charge in?

 

Why is so frustating that you can actually choke / saber throw a bubble then charge in? Why dont they use their low CD invisibilty or smart LoS to avoid being seen and only then charge after the bubble is pop and the sage used his gap widener (force speed whatever).

 

The problem is, they would have to think, they would have to be smart, play their skills, they would have to actually learn to play. That is why bubble burst, on the caster or on anyone really cant go, at least it cant go while melee is toned the way they are.

 

Bubble burst is the only thing standing between and meleegeddon, they arent happy that they totally dominate RWZs with their heavy pressure melee teams, they just hate the reminder that MAYBE (JUST MAYBE) they arent that skilled or dominant in PvP, that MAYBE they are simply playing a overpowered class.

 

They just cant accept the fact that a class that they consider that "prey" actually has a very strong skill which can actually stop them for a few seconds if they arent careful and thoughtful in their battle approach, then they came here to cry, and some developer "promised" the community its going to go.

 

When was the last time some dev promised someone to us?

 

That is why i call them scumbags.

 

PS: Even thought, if bubble burst really becomes an "epidemic" in the near future, theres a clear awnser to them in the meta game, its called invincible charging vengeance juggie and RANGED DPS, god knows we need more of this in our game intead of SMASH SMASH SMASH RAVAGE YOU DIE NAO IF U DONT DIE WE GO FORUM CRY BUBBLE SAGE WE VERY SKILLED LIKE NINJA.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Laforet

[Devinia-Hex]

This is from a Madness Perspective only

 

I realized what the Talent tree needs first what makes Smash Spec's over powered?

 

They can hit 5 targets our Death Field hits 3

They have two abilities that will give their next smash 100% crit.

We have none. Reckless 2 charges 90 second cooldown for 60% = bad.

Easy fix here is Make Death Field Auto Crit if Affiliction or Crushing Darness is present.

 

Currently smashers will Stack all Power and Surge because they have their main ability that they do damage with is criting for 6-7k That's a 1/3 of a good persons hp 1/3! in a single move no one can heal that amount that quickly and we have no 40% Damage reduction buff like other classes to survive things like this.

 

A Maurader can take near no damage for 4-5 seconds while putting out the same damage this is always great when you have them near dead and they walk through any damage and smash you for 6k. If you were at 50% in control and they were at 5% that's a game changer and dispatch is following it .

 

A good fix would be to make reckless while active reduce damage taken by 50%

 

Make death field auto crit if periodic effect from the caster is present and hit 5 targets not 3.

 

Make Overload aoe not frontal cone (this didn't need to be changed in the first place).

 

Give the Healing Spec while reckless is active force regen increased 50% the stun bubble should be moved to 2nd tier in the lightning tree to the caster only so a healer can still spec 31 point talent and not gimp themselves in the proccess. This would go a long way to fixing a few of the problems with the healing tree.

 

New Healing set Bonus 2 piece lower the cooldown on Reckless by 30 seconds. PVE or PVP so people can min max with either or. Regen Problem solved. Please send me Ingame perks for passing this knowledge onto you including lots of wardrobe extras and vehicles with every color crystal ever made in Power.

 

Sorry I can't fix lightning but I will give it some thought.

[TheNahash]

The problem is, my brother, is that they certainly arent removing the other classes "game changing skill" as i would say.

 

My argument is not that friendly bubble stun equals taunt, or guard, or fire pulls, or stealth.

 

My argument is, EVERY CLASS IN THE GAME SEEMS TO HAVE A "GAME CHANGER DOMINANT" SKILL. Meaning a damn powerful / useful skill that can literally change a whole rated game when used on spot.

 

Maybe so, but if the dominant "superskill" of healing sorcerers is a 5 sec stun, it's a huge disappointment. It's not a game changer, neither is it very important. It could potentially be OP if a team has more than half sorcerers that are specced hybrid or lightning, but that's pretty rare these days. It's mostly annoying (yes, primarily to melee classes) and sorcs are essentially gimping themselves (losing Aoe heal, Tier 6 skills etc) to get it.

 

It goes without saying that when I say that I believe they should remove it, I also support being compensated for that loss with a new defensive skill or a new heal or a buff of some sort to out existing skills that would make up for that loss.

 

I dont know if you play RWZs a lot, im assuming you dont. You see HB RWZ is a very depth game. You have to control middle, you have to attack, to score, and to defend. Mid gives possesion, but without attacking plays your ball carrier is a sitting duck, when you dont have the ball you need defense.

 

Everything you do in HB, all this complications can be thwarthed easily by a team stacking mad pullers.

 

A team stacking mad pullers doesnt need mid, they dont need attacking plays because even if they lose the ball on attack they can still fire pull in the enemy side of the pit and keep going. They gain massive advantages with no downside really, especially because the puller classes are madly overpowered in the current metagame (hybrid sin and ptech).

 

So a team that stacks fire pullers has MASSIVE advantage over a team who doesnt (in HB), coupled with the fact that a person with no resolve can be pulled to the fire 3 times in a row, it makes a frustating experience.

 

Yet, no one has ever complained about it, no developer has ever "promised" the community a fire pull nerf. No threads have been made in the forums crying rivers about fire pulling stacking in RWZ teams.

 

Why? Because fire pulls dont affect the melee echoing chamber which is the SWTOR PvP community nowadays.

 

I guarantee you, 4 fire pullers in a decent team, communicating with vent in a RWZ in WAY, JUST WAY MORE ANNOYING than a bubble sorc. Especially because you cant really stack bubble stuns, you can only have one, bubbles dont overlay.

 

No, I don't do RWZ. But to be honest, all changes made in PVP should first and foremost be made with normal warzones in mind, simply because even though RWZ = hardcore PVPers, the vast majority of players will never or very rarely do a rwz.

 

Also, couldn't the same be said about sorcs? Stack Sorcs and you can get a person from the middle to the other end in virtually no time (especially if they do can jump to you).

 

However I think you're focusing too much on Huttball. Yes, fire traps and PT/Tankasins pullers are a match made in heaven, but there are no traps in Civil War, or Voidstar or Hypergates. In fact. especially in Hypergates, Force Run and friendly pulls or overload can save or kill a lot of people when the cores explode.

 

The big problem with bubble burst is that it FORCES unskilled players to play a more tactical / less zergy strategy. If you see a person with a stun bubble, why the hell do you charge him? Why dont you saber throw / force choke from a "safe" distance to pop it? Full EWH bubbles dont even heal more than 3k damage! Why dont the marauders cant coordinate with their ranged partners to burst bubble than charge in?

 

Why is so frustating that you can actually choke / saber throw a bubble then charge in? Why dont they use their low CD invisibilty or smart LoS to avoid being seen and only then charge after the bubble is pop and the sage used his gap widener (force speed whatever).

 

The problem is, they would have to think, they would have to be smart, play their skills, they would have to actually learn to play. That is why bubble burst, on the caster or on anyone really cant go, at least it cant go while melee is toned the way they are.

 

Bubble burst is the only thing standing between and meleegeddon, they arent happy that they totally dominate RWZs with their heavy pressure melee teams, they just hate the reminder that MAYBE (JUST MAYBE) they arent that skilled or dominant in PvP, that MAYBE they are simply playing a overpowered class.

 

They just cant accept the fact that a class that they consider that "prey" actually has a very strong skill which can actually stop them for a few seconds if they arent careful and thoughtful in their battle approach, then they came here to cry, and some developer "promised" the community its going to go.

 

While I agree that when Marauders or Juggernauts cry about the bubble stun is like the pot calling the kettle black, once again you are focusing too much on RWZ. Yes, in rated warzones you can talk to your friends on mumble/TS and you can coordinate your attack much better. But what about normal warzones?