P2W is bad?

[falcon_Xtreme]

To pay extra on top of that to get better items and clear progression, is unfair and unequal!

 

ironically that is also true between the f2p and subscription models.

[Atramar]

Just a question, where is this game breaking P2W comes from? I cannot find anything game breaking on cartel shop, a link would be nice please

[falcon_Xtreme]

Just a question, where is this game breaking P2W comes from? I cannot find anything game breaking on cartel shop, a link would be nice please

 

Astute observation. people are worried about a slippery slope with the store. hell at least its not a nerf mara thread.

[CommanderKeeva]

because i can. how you play is up to you. how I play is my business.

 

Okay, then consider the following:

 

"I want a university degree! What do you mean I have to actually i attend the university and put hard work into it? I have money!" Absurd?

 

"I want a language certificate! You don't really expect me to actually waste my time learning another language, when I have money, right?" Absurd?

 

"What do you mean I can't buy my PhD? Just look at how much money I have!" Absurd?

 

"I find it too tiring to ascend to the rank of director over the years. I don't want to waste my valuable time gaining prestige among my colleagues! Make me director of the company on day 1, I'll pay for it!" Absurd?

 

"Hey what do you mean I have to create some groundbreaking invention or cure some disease to get the Noble Prize? I don't want to waste years of my life grinding formulas and crunching numbers that might one day make me famous! I want to be the best right now, but no worries I can pay!" Absurd?

 

If you find these real life analogies absurd, then it's equally absurd to assume that you can replace time and effort with money in a virtual life. It doesn't work that way, it never has and never will.

 

Or please humor me and name some great achievement in real life that can be bought for money and doesn't require any effort.

Edited November 13, 2012 by CommanderKeeva

[Dras_Keto]

Just a question, where is this game breaking P2W comes from? I cannot find anything game breaking on cartel shop, a link would be nice please

 

Doesnt much matter for endgame but:

 

Advanced Orange-Yellow War Hero’s Crystal +41 expertise. REQUIRES LEVEL 35

 

But it doesnt stop there, I mean, seriously, you think that level 50 crystals available to level 35s was bad? well, how about this?

 

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/pinkpurple2.jpg

 

Yeah, level 50 crystals, at level 10. There went the entire sub-50 pvp experience. It was annoying enough having to deal with the level 40s who saved up 6300 wz comms and bought weapons with the +18 expertise enhancements ... this just blows that out of the water completely.

[Crawelc]

President of the United States.

[CommanderKeeva]

President of the United States.

 

Yeah, Romney is pushing for P2W elections in 2016.

[Dras_Keto]

Yeah, Romney is pushing for P2W elections in 2016.

 

Guess who spent more for 2012, though? And had about 80% of the media lying through their teeth supporting him? Thats the real deciding factor, since most Americans are incapable of making decisions for themselves or, heaven forbid, coming up with an original thought every once in a while.

[CommanderKeeva]

Doesnt much matter for endgame but:

 

Advanced Orange-Yellow War Hero’s Crystal +41 expertise. REQUIRES LEVEL 35

 

But it doesnt stop there, I mean, seriously, you think that level 50 crystals available to level 35s was bad? well, how about this?

 

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/pinkpurple2.jpg

 

Yeah, level 50 crystals, at level 10. There went the entire sub-50 pvp experience. It was annoying enough having to deal with the level 40s who saved up 6300 wz comms and bought weapons with the +18 expertise enhancements ... this just blows that out of the water completely.

 

There was actually a dev response on this. These crystals are there to give an advantage to low level players that don't have access to the all the skills yet. The lower level you are, the more the crystal will benefit you. Its usefulness diminishes as you gain levels and at 50 it evaporates to nothing.

 

Also, they stated that they would like to make the crystals stats permanent, so you don't have to throw away your super-rare white or black-green crystal simply because it's not BiS anymore.

Edited November 13, 2012 by CommanderKeeva

[Dras_Keto]

There was actually a dev response on this. These crystals are there to give an advantage to low level players that don't have access to the all the skills yet. The lower level you are, the more the crystal will benefit you. Its usefulness diminishes as you gain levels and at 50 it evaporates to nothing.

 

Also, they stated that they would like to make the crystals stats permanent, so you don't have to throw away your super-rare white or black-green crystal simply because it's not BiS anymore.

 

So, youre telling me that their "fix" to the relative imbalance of say, a team of pubs with 6 people under level 15 going up against a team of imps all over level 45 is something we now have to pay for?

 

" 'Content' Preview for January! The Bug Fix Patch!! After careful thought we have decided to release into the Cartel Shop a few new consumable items.

 

They include awesome things like:

 

- The Ultra-Desweeperizer! Once use of this awesome item will reduce any Guardian or Sentinel's Force Sweep damage on you by 70% for three (3) hours of play time!

 

- The 'OMGWTFBBQSTOP STUNNING ME!' This handy item will, when used, break you out of any crowd control effects, and make you immune to further CC's for 10 seconds without triggering your CC breaker cooldown!"

 

Etc. ...

[Tha_Govna]

WHY?

 

Yep, a Gear grind QQ thread disguised as a P2W QQ thread!

 

Give me a reason why pay to win is bad.

 

PVP MEASURES SKILL! THOSE WITH BETTUR MONEY WINS!

Those with bettur gear wins....

 

PVP ISN'T SUPPOSED TO MEASURE THE SIZE OF YOUR WALLET

It's also not supposed to measure the number of empty spaces on your calender... which is what allows you to get the gear and therefore win....

REBUTTAL: GEAR DOESN'T NECESSARILY CAUSE AN AUTOMATIC WIN; SKILL IS INVOLVED! THE GEAR GRIND IS JUSTIFIED!

Then so is P2W, since "gear doesn't necessarily cause an automatic win", then any advantage obtained unskillfully via money is analogous to any advantage obtained unskillfully via time sink.... Thus, since I most likely must spell this out for you, if an advantage via time sink is justified, an advantage via micro-transaction must be as well.

 

GEAR SLAUGHTER DOESN'T ENCOURAGE NEW PLAYERS TO PLAY, THIS GAME IS DYING!

Not only is this off-topic, but the grind right now has a huge gap and also "doesn't encourage new players to play". In other words, your point is invalid!

 

Find the argument you stick with, and then see how you're irrationally thinking if you support both P2W and the gear grind!

 

If you cannot find your reasons, then post them so I may invalidate them!

 

 

First off the gear gain was more of a grind to begin with and those that have more time in turn will have the better gear, thats life tough ****. They made it easier to obtain pvp gear cause of your fellow players "QQ'ing" much like you are. If you are unsatisfied with the lack of challenge it takes to get gear go back to 1.15 and spend the time I spent to get what I had before they made said "P2W" or what ever the hell your calling it.

 

I do not see a market kiosk that allows you to buy WarZone comms or rWZ comms, and granted others may have more time to grind them and perhaps are smart enough to save the left overs from minmaxing to put in legacy gear for a mirrored alt on the other faction or other AC on the same side. This is because (A) they have more time then you to lvl alts and to do the dailies and don't ***** about the changes made cause in reality they have no control over this, and (B) because they know that things will just become easier down the road if they plan ahead.

 

Also a QQ on the WarZones? Remember its not BoiWare quing up and FaceRolling you its your fellow players. Its not BioWare rolling premades its your fellow players. Granted they have made the FOTM and its rather annoying, IMO if you don't like it **** as your are only complaining cause you can't take the heat and truly need to get out of the kitchen. This is a game and its players may have a little voice but not all those voices can be heard and the ones that are "are still never satisfied". I would love to see people go back to BM gear grinding in boxes and you spend a month to get geared out even if you put 10 hours a day in the game. Oh yeah and spend that cheddar on making augmented gear before the changes (as this was a true ***** to achieve without even more time to get matts or do dailies for credits to buy them).

[CommanderKeeva]

So, youre telling me that their "fix" to the relative imbalance of say, a team of pubs with 6 people under level 15 going up against a team of imps all over level 45 is something we now have to pay for?

 

Their idea, not mine. But since all cartel items are tradeable on the GTN (yep even new emotes, pvp weekly passes, ball toss, faction banners, charbonite chambes and section x and hk-51 access, xp, valor and social points boost and whatnot), you'll be able to purchase these crystals for in-game credits.

[Atramar]

Their idea, not mine. But since all cartel items are tradeable on the GTN (yep even new emotes, pvp weekly passes, ball toss, faction banners, charbonite chambes and section x and hk-51 access, xp, valor and social points boost and whatnot), you'll be able to purchase these crystals for in-game credits.

 

but that means he will have to GRIND money

 

edit: I am still waiting for that game breaking item that can be bought for real life money (crystals doesn't count, it was already explained)

Edited November 13, 2012 by Atramar

[DaedalusV]

Astute observation. people are worried about a slippery slope with the store. hell at least its not a nerf mara thread.

 

stopped trying to show you my side of the argument.

 

Will correct you on the above you wrote.

 

Pretty sure no one is afraid of how the present f2p model is implemented.

 

The OP asks why pay to win is a bad idea. alot of people have made valid points against it.

 

I couldn't care less about lowbie imbalance. I level alts there. It is not balanced and won't. Be as long as bolster doesn't equalize skillpoint pools as well as gear and char levels.

[Yeochins]

People advocating for free-to-play have never seen or heard:

• YNK Entertainment
  
• Outspark
  
• Perfect World Entertainment (PWE)
  

 

The last of them being the most successful of the three. If you know anything about free-to-play you know that PWE are the masters of the free-to-play model.

[Labradoraki]

No effort invested, no reward given.

 

And can you not see the runaway effect?

 

Player A buys his gear instead of going through the sweat and toil player B has. That puts Player B at a disadvantage, so he will also have to buy his gear if he wants to have even odds against player A. Then Player C and D will be at a disadvantage and will need to buy gear if they want to keep competing against Players A and B. And so forth, and so forth....

P2W.

 

Same thing happens with no lifers or people who wasted enough time to get gear. They are at an advantage compared to player b/c/d. No matter what you do people will always be on an advantage compared to newer players, all p2w would do is increase the amount of people that have top gear giving them equal footing with the rest top gear players. You see the glass half empty, that the players will be hurt because more people will have an advantage compared to them while i see it half full, that there will be more players with top gear and will have better more skill requiring fights.

 

I dont see the issue with buying the gear simply because there will always be better geared players that will destroy you.(only issue is if bioware incerases the time required to get gear without money)

I see a real P2W problem, which is the few quickbar slots which DIRECTLY hinder someones efficiency against someone who pays and will win due to his money and not his skill. Now that is a real p2w issue

 

 

No effort invested=no reward given?

 

Why do you want to reward something that even a mentally retarded kid could achieve? Grind is an easy repetitive task that even the most dumb person in the world can d, it takes no skill, i dont see why you want to reward them so much. Do you really believe that by getting gear you achieved something big? No you just wasted a lot of time doing a dumb repetitive task which i am not sure how healthy that is long term but thats irrelevant.

And even if you want to reward someone for his effort, i see the people who buy gear a lot more deserving since some might have taken that money through their work who might actually require some skill and it isnt a brainless repetitive task. They obviously deserve it more than the no lifers who waste huge time ingame doing that dumb repetitive task that even a 8 year old can do.

 

SKILL is what should be rewarded, grinding should not, and its only rewarded here because it gives companies a profit, not because its logical or deserving.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Labradoraki

[Kurvv]

Real simple, it's a matter of integrity.

 

If the company begins it's P2W route, first it will be even terms. Money or Time for gear. Sound nice right?

 

Then it get's to be Money or More Time.

 

Pretty soon the only way to get gear is Money, or spending an outrageous amount of time. (You think this gear grind bad, go play Perfect World).

 

Now what the company is suppose to be providing is a game to waste time in, but instead they are gobbling up your money and whoring themselves out to the highest bidder. Trust me, as someone who spent over 2,000 in two years on one game... you -do not- want pay to win.

 

More importantly, if you think paying for your gear vs. putting time in playing the game for it is some how an equal term... <.< well you probably don't love games.

 

lol. $2k in a year. I played a different game licensed by the same people who did Perfect World, and several people in my guild spent upwards of $10k in the 2 years I played it, including one guy who openly admitted to spending $30k. He had a business in Dubai and was filthy rich.

But yeah, it's amazing the lengths people will go to given the opportunity in a p2w environment.

[Groncho]

no decent pvp'er should feel worried about this f2p business model

only the ones that can't perform will

even if u pay or grind u will get the gear..so...everyone is even wich is good

now if they launch a +100 power crystal and the only way to get it is by paying it with CC coins (thus u get a boost in ur damage in this example) that's another thing and it's really bad. By doing so they will basically destroy the suscriber mass and they will not do it.

is not what they are doing so ...

please move along

[CommanderKeeva]

They obviously deserve it more than the no lifers who waste huge time ingame doing that dumb repetitive task that even a 8 year old can do.

 

So the people who actually PvP deserve PvP gear less than those who don't PvP. Seems legit.

Edited November 13, 2012 by CommanderKeeva

[Labradoraki]

So the people who actually PvP deserve PvP gear less than those who don't PvP. Seems legit.

 

yep, do you think a person that stamps documents all at the same spot all day deserves to be rewarded more than a captain of a ship that has quite a few important choices to make??

Thats what your saying, because even a retard can grind to get gear since skill doesnt affect it a huge level

 

once again you dont want to accept that wasting time doing repetitive tasks like grinding isnt somethign the deserves a reward, its only there because if only skill got rewarded then most gamers would ragequit the game and NOT pay the company because tehy wouldnt be able to be rewarded and would feel bad(and would deserve to feel bad, but that doesnt bring profit now does it?)

 

I guess you dont want to accept it because that would mean you also have to accept that the big amount of tiem you wasted grinding meant nothing, and that would make you feel bad. Ah usual gamers, having no abillities and using games as a way to feel better even though they dont deserve to feel better since well, they suck xD

Edited November 13, 2012 by Labradoraki

[Tekell]

Everyone has the same amount of time huh? So the guy with a full time job has the same amount of time available as the unemployed people that can play all day?

 

So the guy with a full time job has under 24 hours in a day and the unemployed person has over 24 hours a day? Everyone has the same amount of time in a day you can't argue that. If the person who has the full time job tries to get x gear then it will take no longer than the guy who has no job. It makes it fair for everyone. Now if monsters dropped cartel coins I wouldn't hate pay to win that way if you can't spend $100 a day on the shop then you aren't at a disadvantage. Based on your flawed logic, if someone has $100 a month to spend on cartel coins then it is just like if they were the unemployed person just the roles are flipped. The game should require skill not a lump of cash.

[TrumpetNut]

Well. I have just but one thing too say. You get your first PvP gear (recruit gear) for free. This gear is not nearly as good as War hero gear but IF you are actually skilled yo SHOULD be able to make it work. I havent bought Battlemaster stuff yet because it is not needed when I use recruit and skill.

[DaedalusV]

yep, do you think a person that stamps documents all at the same spot all day deserves to be rewarded more than a captain of a ship that has quite a few important choices to make??

Thats what your saying, because even a retard can grind to get gear since skill doesnt affect it a huge level

 

once again you dont want to accept that wasting time doing repetitive tasks like grinding isnt somethign the deserves a reward, its only there because if only skill got rewarded then most gamers would ragequit the game and NOT pay the company because tehy wouldnt be able to be rewarded and would feel bad(and would deserve to feel bad, but that doesnt bring profit now does it?)

 

I guess you dont want to accept it because that would mean you also have to accept that the big amount of tiem you wasted grinding meant nothing, and that would make you feel bad. Ah usual gamers, having no abillities and using games as a way to feel better even though they dont deserve to feel better since well, they suck xD

 

who died and made you captain?

 

I see no reason why you should be able to skip the boring and time consuming grind just because you can pay extra for it.

I would rather be given a full war hero set when you ding fresh 50.... You would be for that as well. Since it would even the playing field for all subscribers. And nor just for the blue collar people who have more disposeable income than others.

[TridusSWTOR]

Pay to win is a terrible idea! But what BioWare could do, is reducing the grind to get top gear.

 

Bingo, that would help F2P get more into PVP. Thus bolstering the community.

[Labradoraki]

who died and made you captain?

 

I see no reason why you should be able to skip the boring and time consuming grind just because you can pay extra for it.

I would rather be given a full war hero set when you ding fresh 50.... You would be for that as well. Since it would even the playing field for all subscribers. And nor just for the blue collar people who have more disposeable income than others.

 

See was talking about effort. The effort someone spends doing a repetitive and silly task like grind means nothing compared to the effort someone spends in some irl job that requires some brains(SOME paying players do that you know), and its that effort that gives you the money to buy those things. She was saying that skill and brain shouldnt be rewarded but brainless tasks liek grind should.