P2W is bad?

[Atramar]

The essence of any competitive game is you pit yourself against the opponent on equal terms, within the game, to see who is better.

 

If you play someone at chess, do you regard the fact that they have practiced and played more as unfair? Perhaps you demand that you should be able to buy six more queens if you want, as your time is too valuable to waste learning how to play.

 

For a game to be a clean contest and have the integrity to keep people engaged, it must not be possible to simply buy your way to victory, because then it's just a contest to see who can spend the most rather than who's best at the game.

 

For the record, I'm married and have a full-time job; and also two toons in full aug-WH. It's not that hard to gear up. I'll pay to play (I subscribe after all), but I would quit the moment a game went pay to win; because I want to play a game, not get into a wallet-waving contest.

 

6 queens is a bad example.

if 6 queens can be obtained by gridning , game wouldn't be chess any more. and you can't buy skill.

I agre it's not hard to gear up, and I won't pay for gear either, but if some one want's to pay £ or $ or € for augumented WH, let them. if they suck, they wil still suck, diff between BM and WH is not so big any way. bah, if a guy can't play, recruit player will smash them.

[falcon_Xtreme]

So, he's a casual player with not much play time on his hand but wants to go against the best without going through the stages said people have to actually become the best?

 

Sorry, I just don't see the logic behind it. Would the Olympic swimming team let a millionare join them who doesn't even know how to swim and hasn't had the time and effort to learn the tricks of the trade? Could a millionaire nominate himself for the Academy award if he hasn't invested time and effort to become a renowned actor?

 

There are things in real life that you can only gain through effort, not money, because it would cheapen their value. There similare things in a virtual game.

 

Having said that, I have always been pushing for proper match making and a casual PvP bracket at Recruit level.

If we had one, your middle-aged, dedicated, bank clerk father of 2 children could compete against similar players while not feeling hindered by his gear. Another bracket at 50 and proper matchmaking are the reasonable solutions, not going P2W,

 

its a game. if I work 40-50 hours a week and cannot invest as much time as someone with no job who plays 24/7. does that mean I have to still invest a certain amount of time to aquire the gear (through a gear grind) just to make it somehow fair for the person who aquired it that way? ... no if theres an option thats suitable for me (and others ) then we will take it. my game experience is my game experience.

[falcon_Xtreme]

So by the merits of your arguments..

If I have the knowhow to cheat I should be allowed to.(BTW if you have money to spare, I'm sure you could hire someone to do the grinding for you, right?)

 

strawman. i said nothing of the sort.

[falcon_Xtreme]

<SNIP> but if some one want's to pay £ or $ or € for augumented WH, let them. if they suck, they wil still suck, diff between BM and WH is not so big any way. bah, if a guy can't play, recruit player will smash them.

 

agree with this ^

[DaedalusV]

its a game. if I work 40-50 hours a week and cannot invest as much time as someone with no job who plays 24/7. does that mean I have to still invest a certain amount of time to aquire the gear (through a gear grind) just to make it somehow fair for the person who aquired it that way? ... no if theres an option thats suitable for me (and others ) then we will take it. my game experience is my game experience.

 

So if I have an option to crack/hack/exploit because I have the IT knowhow, I should be allowed? My game experience is my game experience... If I wan't to level the playing field/get an edge over others ingame because I am in a position to do that through means NOT ingame, I should be allowed??

[Wainamoinen]

P2W is wonderful. It warmeth my cockles.

 

I think it's insane to pay rent to live in a virtual world and neglect reality, but it's even more insane to pay for cosmetic goods that are only of questionable use in that world. I have a hard enough time rationalizing the former; there's no way I would do the latter.

 

However, since I've already done the former, I like the idea of people dumber than me spending real money on useless virtual things so I don't lose my investment in my pastime. Good PvP teams will always smear bad P2W teams, and no-one cares what bad players do as long as inject money into SWTOR.

 

If you P2W in PvE, then LOL@U--you probably had a Tamogotchi as a kid and your loserdom is almost complete.

 

~Sig

 

While I deplore your lack of principle, I applaud your clear reasoning.

 

Still wrong because it devalues the game, and opens the door to your good PvP team being outgunned by bad P2W teams if ("when", under those circumstances) better and more expensive gear is available quickly through real money purchase, but funny. And I buy the points, figuratively speaking, about paying for pixels.

 

It's actually largely status people are buying anyway, and the status depends on the items representing excellence (or at least effort). Once they can be bought for real money then the game-status devalues so it's self-defeating and trashes the game in the process. If people proposing P2W were really interested in a non-serious (fairly) equal contest where they didn't need top gear, they could simply run lowbie PvP. Job done. Only that probably wouldn't be as ego-strokingly pleasant as swanning about in the top gear, would it?

Edited November 13, 2012 by Wainamoinen

[DaedalusV]

strawman. i said nothing of the sort.

 

Lies. Your argument opens up for exactly that argument.

 

You want to be able to leverage your paycheck to get ahead of the gear curve.

 

I want to leverage my knowhow of software to do exactly the same.

 

 

(still waiting to get a reply on my original argument on why P2W shouldn't be implemented.. Namely the fact that two wrongs does make it right)

Edited November 13, 2012 by DaedalusV

[CommanderKeeva]

its a game. if I work 40-50 hours a week and cannot invest as much time as someone with no job who plays 24/7. does that mean I have to still invest a certain amount of time to aquire the gear (through a gear grind) just to make it somehow fair for the person who aquired it that way? ... no if theres an option thats suitable for me (and others ) then we will take it. my game experience is my game experience.

 

Yes, it means exactly that. I'm working from 8 am to 6 pm every day, too.

I'm guessing you don't care about the side effect of your game experience and how P2W will affect the larger community. Read up a bit to see how the process of going P2W destroyed several other games already.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't like gear progression either. (Personally, I think separating PvE and PvP gear progression was one of the stupidest thing BW ever did.) But if I had to choose between gear grind and P2W, then gear grind all the way with all the negative side effects. Why? Because P2W is not a stable market model in the long run.

[Wainamoinen]

6 queens is a bad example.

if 6 queens can be obtained by gridning , game wouldn't be chess any more. and you can't buy skill.

I agre it's not hard to gear up, and I won't pay for gear either, but if some one want's to pay £ or $ or € for augumented WH, let them. if they suck, they wil still suck, diff between BM and WH is not so big any way. bah, if a guy can't play, recruit player will smash them.

 

Actually, it's fine. You can get extra queens in chess by getting a pawn to the back line, if you play well.

 

Only in shiny new "P2W Chess 9000" you don't have to make the effort of getting them through there by being better than your opponent, you can start with a bunch of extra queens. Because your time is too valuable to actually, you know, play the game: now you can simply pay to win. How rewarding. If you pay more, it's even more rewarding!

 

Now with new hyper-queens, that can teleport to anywhere on the board, only $100 per use.

[falcon_Xtreme]

Lies. Your argument opens up for exactly that argument.

You want to be able to leverage your paycheck to get ahead of the gear curve.

I want to leverage my knowhow of software to do exactly the same.

 

your knowledge of software as leverage would be an exploit against the eula and tos. where as paying money is operating within conditions offered by ea/bioware its a ingame store. subscription vs f2p does the exact same thing but on a smaller level. sub =unlimited warzones and f2p limited, thats a gear curve distinction right there, by you guessed it... money.

[CommanderKeeva]

Actually, it's fine. You can get extra queens in chess by getting a pawn to the back line, if you play well.

 

Only in shiny new "P2W Chess 9000" you don't have to make the effort of getting them through there by being better than your opponent, you can start with a bunch of extra queens. Because your time is too valuable to actually, you know, play the game: now you can simply pay to win. How rewarding. If you pay more, it's even more rewarding!

 

Now with new hyper-queens, that can teleport to anywhere on the board, only $100 per use.

 

Is that the game, where knights can force leap? Bishops use force speed? Kings stealth and rooks take cover and turn into miniature turrets?

[Atramar]

for last time, you can't buy skill, nor you can't buy gear which will give one abilitie to one butto smash everything.

that 'milionare' with full augumented WH will still get smashed by your pro elite skills and team play.

I've played game where few people payed about 2,000$ per month for items from item shop and they were unbeatable. unless you've spent many hours you couldn't touch them. and if you landed a hit, it was for 5 dmg (hp was 20k). That was pay to win. (granted, in time you had items to tickle them and 40 ticklers eventually killed one).

[falcon_Xtreme]

Yes, it means exactly that. I'm working from 8 am to 6 pm every day, too.

I'm guessing you don't care about the side effect of your game experience and how P2W will affect the larger community. Read up a bit to see how the process of going P2W destroyed several other games already.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't like gear progression either. (Personally, I think separating PvE and PvP gear progression was one of the stupidest thing BW ever did.) But if I had to choose between gear grind and P2W, then gear grind all the way with all the negative side effects. Why? Because P2W is not a stable market model in the long run.

 

tell that to lotro. and SOE with then they had swg tcg. Micro transtractions through ingame stores are vastly becoming the rule not the exception in mmos. its nothing new.

[Wainamoinen]

Is that the game, where knights can force leap? Bishops use force speed? Kings stealth and rooks take cover and turn into miniature turrets?

 

I saw someone hacking once, where their King and a rook swapped places. Bioware did nothing.

[Eillack]

OP, TOR is not your thing, P2W is a horrible aspect that screws up all sense of gear progression and allows an injustified advantage over other players, damaging any "fun" aspect or a sense of accomplishment.

 

Go back to where you came from and stop trolling our site.

 

Thanks.

[Belly]

I saw someone hacking once, where their King and a rook swapped places. Bioware did nothing.

 

+1

 

moarchars

[DarthFamine]

What a fascinating discussion.

I am that guy with a full time job, who works 60+ hours a week.

I have been playing since beta and have three level 50 toons so I think you can get a good idea of how much time I get to spend in game.

 

I do not like the grind for gear, and I agree that separating PVE and PVP gear is bad because now I have to grind twice as long and consequently I am far behind the curve on alot of things.

 

For example I have yet to clear EC hard mode, or TFB in any mode

I also do not have a toon yet with max valor and war hero gear.

 

I will do these things in time, my sage is slowly gaining valor, I think he's rank 53 now and my Sent recently got EC SM onto farm mode. My progress is necessarily slow. Had I more time It would be better.

 

My accomplishments are not epic, but they are mine and paying for them with cash makes them no accomplishment at all.

[Karkais]

 

Give me a reason why pay to win is bad.

 

Because it creates inequality between those who have money and those who don't.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Karkais

[DaedalusV]

your knowledge of software as leverage would be an exploit against the eula and tos. where as paying money is operating within conditions offered by ea/bioware its a ingame store. subscription vs f2p does the exact same thing but on a smaller level. sub =unlimited warzones and f2p limited, thats a gear curve distinction right there, by you guessed it... money.

 

So we come full circle. P2W is already implemented. It's called paying your sub.

 

It's funny though. You stating eula and tos as the reason why I am not permitted to cheat through knowhow since you're trying to debunk my argument, why don't you do that without using the arbitrary ruleset BW has created?

(especially since it's against the ToS/EULA to use gold-sellers, so P2W is NOT allowed by the same rules as you're throwing at me)

 

Future changes to the ToS and EULA may make it possible to P2W through the sanctioned RMTs, future changes in the ToS and EULA may make it legit to cheat. Don't use arbitrary rulesets as canon when arguing please.

[falcon_Xtreme]

Originally Posted by Zunayson Give me a reason why pay to win is bad....

 

Because it creates inequality between those who have money and those who don't.

 

or ... just throwing this out there.....Give me a reason why pay to win is good?....

 

Because it creates equality between those who have time and those who don't.

Edited November 13, 2012 by falcon_Xtreme

[DaedalusV]

Originally Posted by Zunayson Give me a reason why pay to win is bad....

 

 

 

or ... just throwing this out there.....Give me a reason why pay to win is good?....

 

Because it creates equality between those who have time and those who don't.

 

Two wrongs does not make a right.

Gear progression is the reason there is a gear gap. (I am not a fan of gear progression btw. It's nothing but a Skinner's Box)

P2W will alleviate the difference IF the people with money are the exact same ones who aren't fully geared.

 

See what I am hinting at?

 

I'm guessing alot of the people who PRIORITIZE their time to grind gear in this game will be PRIORITIZING disposable income towards grinding faster.

 

SOME people who prioritize RL over SWTOR may prioritize some of their disposable income towards the game.

 

You are not going to spend loads of cash on a game you play to have fun IF the only way to have fun is:

 

1) Paying a monthly sub

AND

2) pay RMTs to become competative enough to have fun..

 

I dislike it when I am forced to pay twice for the things I enjoy doing in my spare time.

 

(I am a casual, with lots of RL stuff to do, I've managed to get a full WH main and a near full WH secondary without feeling too left behind)

[CommanderKeeva]

Originally Posted by Zunayson Give me a reason why pay to win is bad....

 

 

 

or ... just throwing this out there.....Give me a reason why pay to win is good?....

 

Because it creates equality between those who have time and those who don't.

 

Tell me why a person who doesn't have time to play the game would want to play the most competitive aspect of PvP with those who put hundreds if not THOUSANDS of hours of dedicated, hard work and practice into the game?

 

Time doesn't equal money. Time is worth far more than money. Time brings knowledge and understanding. Money does not. The P2W guy who has time to play the game what maybe two hours a week but has full WH armor would stil hinder his team simply because he wouldn't be familiar with his class or the maps or enemy classes enough. There's a good chance he'd leave, anyway, when he realizes that his super WH armor doesn't help him win a bit. It doesn't put a healer in his group, it doesn't make him less susceptible to cc, it doesn't prevent everyone from playing the fotm classes.

 

But at the same time going P2W would mean that all the GOOD players and professional players would buy the gear because they are always looking for an edge over each other. It would make things spiral out of control.

[chimex]

I understand the argument that some players dont have all the time in the world to play, I'm one of them. I have a job, bills to pay and all the rest of it. However, having a P2W structure WILL create inbalance. There is a degree of equality when it comes to the "grind" as eventually, everyone will get on equal par.

 

However, with P2W, not everybody can afford these microtransactions, unequality at it's finest.

 

Of course, many would argue "you pay the sub, so what's so wrong with micro transactions?" That's the point, I am paying the sub so to get everything included in the game. There is no "extra" bits i need in the way of stats or performance, I have it. To pay extra on top of that to get better items and clear progression, is unfair and unequal!

[falcon_Xtreme]

 

Future changes to the ToS and EULA may make it possible to P2W through the sanctioned RMTs, future changes in the ToS and EULA may make it legit to cheat. Don't use arbitrary rulesets as canon when arguing please It's funny though. You stating eula and tos as the reason why I am not permitted to cheat through knowhow since you're trying to debunk my argument, why don't you do that without using the arbitrary ruleset BW has created?(especially since it's against the ToS/EULA to use gold-sellers, so P2W is NOT allowed by the same rules as you're throwing at me)

 

I cant use arbitrary rulesets but you can use hyperthetical changes to the EULA and TOS? I dont have to debunk your argument P2W is defined by the service provider. Store = ok .. Buying and selling gold = not ok. software "knowhow" ...... well thats for EULA TOS to decide

[falcon_Xtreme]

Tell me why a person who doesn't have time to play the game would want to play the most competitive aspect of PvP with those who put hundreds if not THOUSANDS of hours of dedicated, hard work and practice into the game?

 

Time doesn't equal money. Time is worth far more than money. Time brings knowledge and understanding. Money does not. The P2W guy who has time to play the game what maybe two hours a week but has full WH armor would stil hinder his team simply because he wouldn't be familiar with his class or the maps or enemy classes enough. There's a good chance he'd leave, anyway, when he realizes that his super WH armor doesn't help him win a bit. It doesn't put a healer in his group, it doesn't make him less susceptible to cc, it doesn't prevent everyone from playing the fotm classes.

 

But at the same time going P2W would mean that all the GOOD players and professional players would buy the gear because they are always looking for an edge over each other. It would make things spiral out of control.

 

because i can. how you play is up to you. how I play is my business.

Edited November 13, 2012 by falcon_Xtreme