Stoofa Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Just a general thought/discussion, so I guess it can sit in this forum. When I logged in on that first beta weekend and created my first character I actually spent a while looking at all the different species and reading the "short descriptions" under the assumption that my choice of species actually mattered. I wrongly assumed that different species would actually get different advantages/disadvantages and that choice could shape how your character developed. As it happened I was wrong. I wasted time in that decision process because as we know with the exception of some "fluff" racial emote and the "skin" there is absolutely no difference between the species. This will continue as new ones are added as it's obviously far to late to actually make any differences between them. So what do people think the thought process behind this one was? Purely laziness, make them all the same and we don't need to worry about 8 different progression paths with each of the advanced classes? A want to make that choice totally personal, so you didn't feed you "had" to choose a particular species for a particular class? Would you have liked to have seen a difference? So your choice of species actually made a difference to your character at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fornix Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 It definitely wasn't pure laziness, but a balanced decision. It prevents the issue of the people being forced to pick a certain race do they wish to maximize their stats for their class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelodicSixNine Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Would you have liked to have seen a difference? So your choice of species actually made a difference to your character at all? No. BW done it right. Each race can preform 100% on each class both in PvE and PvP. Forcing people to play for example warriors pure blood because racial talent gives them certain advantage in pvp is a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNCommand Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) Having stats for what is primarily a unchangeable aesthetic choice is a bad idea Edited November 12, 2012 by SNCommand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimex Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Just a general thought/discussion, so I guess it can sit in this forum. When I logged in on that first beta weekend and created my first character I actually spent a while looking at all the different species and reading the "short descriptions" under the assumption that my choice of species actually mattered. I wrongly assumed that different species would actually get different advantages/disadvantages and that choice could shape how your character developed. As it happened I was wrong. I wasted time in that decision process because as we know with the exception of some "fluff" racial emote and the "skin" there is absolutely no difference between the species. This will continue as new ones are added as it's obviously far to late to actually make any differences between them. So what do people think the thought process behind this one was? Purely laziness, make them all the same and we don't need to worry about 8 different progression paths with each of the advanced classes? A want to make that choice totally personal, so you didn't feed you "had" to choose a particular species for a particular class? Would you have liked to have seen a difference? So your choice of species actually made a difference to your character at all? When all's said and done, that's the nub of the matter, isnt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharagonIGN Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 It definitely wasn't pure laziness, but a balanced decision. It prevents the issue of the people being forced to pick a certain race do they wish to maximize their stats for their class. I refuse to believe that the guys who thought Bounty Hunter and Troopers were properly "mirrored" gave any consideration at all to balance when it came to races. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomla Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Racial stats are, and always have been, a bad idea. If you want to perform at the top of your level in PvP or PvE you had to go with a race that had the best racials for it. It limited choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoofa Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 When all's said and done, that's the nub of the matter, isnt it. I don't get what you're saying. I wrongly assumed that there would be benefits/negatives with the species choice. However I was wrong. So this got me to thinking about the decision process that BW went through to make this decision. Not sure how this is the "nub of the matter"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippiechick Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I actually agree with you. I think that "mirroring" them was lazy, and they could have done SO much better. Yes, Id like each class to be different and have something special that they, and only they, bring to the table. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenirath Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I actually agree with you. I think that "mirroring" them was lazy, and they could have done SO much better. Yes, Id like each class to be different and have something special that they, and only they, bring to the table. M The game wanted a balanced approach. If they were lazy they wouldn't have given the "mirrored" classes unique graphics and ability effects. Why is it when other games Mirror its lazy, but when WoW allows both factions to be the EXACT SAME class it isnt? Never understood that. WoW has Mage/Priest/Warlock/Paladin/Warrior/Rogue we have Jug/Assassin/Sorc/PT/Mara/Merc/Sniper/Operative. Sure WoW added DKs and that monk class but lets take count now. With its mirrored classes TOR has 8 classes. With 16 sets of animations WoW without mirrored classes, and just classes. Had 6 classes at launch with 6 sets of animations and now has 8 classes with 8 sets of animations. So how is a company that does more work the lazy one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sstanks Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 No. BW done it right. Each race can preform 100% on each class both in PvE and PvP. Forcing people to play for example warriors pure blood because racial talent gives them certain advantage in pvp is a bad thing. exactly WoW did a horrible decision giving some races not only stat differneces but also certain buffs that give them an edge in PVP and PVE. Giving bonuses to certain weapons, immunity to stun, health regen and healing and so on. Race should always be a purely cosmetic choice with some variation in story perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudenfusz Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I am glad BioWare didn't gave the species any stat bonuses or abilities that could be used in combat. But they had such a thing for a time during the beta, not many liked it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenirath Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I am glad BioWare didn't gave the species any stat bonuses or abilities that could be used in combat. But they had such a thing for a time during the beta, not many liked it. I never played the Beta -.- Did they really have a stat modifier for species, or was it just a "Useful" ability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBlue Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Would you have liked to have seen a difference? So your choice of species actually made a difference to your character at all? Actually I feel it makes more of a difference to my character this way because I can play the race I want to play without feeling like I should be playing something else to be more effective in my role (and it keeps people from discriminating against, say, non-Twi'lek Sages, when looking for groups). Also, with people willing to plunk down real money to purchase orange gear, it shows that what a character looks like is pretty important in its own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcadamsl Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I belive it was the right choice, and yes it was a design choice that they made before launch. It makes race unimportant from a game balance stand point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudenfusz Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) I never played the Beta -.- Did they really have a stat modifier for species, or was it just a "Useful" ability? They had stuff like this: Human – Passive: 3% Bonus to Presence Miraluka - Passive: +1 Stealth Detection Twi’lek – Passive: 5 Minute Reduction on Rapid Travel Zabrak - Passive: Increase healing given / taken by 1% Miralian - Passive: Increase precision ( hit rating? ) of Force and Tech powers by 1% Cyborg - Passive: Increase precision ( hit rating? ) of Force and Tech powers by 1% Pureblood – Passive: 1% force dmg/healing Chiss - Passive: +1 stealth/stealth detection Rattataki - Passive: 2% Crit Damage Edited November 12, 2012 by Drudenfusz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcadamsl Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 They had stuff like this: Human – Passive: 3% Bonus to Presence Miraluka - Passive: +1 Stealth Detection Twi’lek – Passive: 5 Minute Reduction on Rapid Travel Zabrak - Passive: Increase healing given / taken by 1% Miralian - Passive: Increase precision ( hit rating? ) of Force and Tech powers by 1% Cyborg - Passive: Increase precision ( hit rating? ) of Force and Tech powers by 1% Pureblood – Passive: 1% force dmg/healing Chiss - Passive: +1 stealth/stealth detection Rattataki - Passive: 2% Crit Damage Wow, just at a glance Pureblood nice damage boost and Twi'lek rather lame ablittie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenirath Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 They had stuff like this: Human – Passive: 3% Bonus to Presence Miraluka - Passive: +1 Stealth Detection Twi’lek – Passive: 5 Minute Reduction on Rapid Travel Zabrak - Passive: Increase healing given / taken by 1% Miralian - Passive: Increase precision ( hit rating? ) of Force and Tech powers by 1% Cyborg - Passive: Increase precision ( hit rating? ) of Force and Tech powers by 1% Pureblood – Passive: 1% force dmg/healing Chiss - Passive: +1 stealth/stealth detection Rattataki - Passive: 2% Crit Damage If that were the case there would be like no Humans and Twilecks! And every stealth class would be a chiss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImperialSun Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Just a general thought/discussion, so I guess it can sit in this forum. When I logged in on that first beta weekend and created my first character I actually spent a while looking at all the different species and reading the "short descriptions" under the assumption that my choice of species actually mattered. I wrongly assumed that different species would actually get different advantages/disadvantages and that choice could shape how your character developed. As it happened I was wrong. I wasted time in that decision process because as we know with the exception of some "fluff" racial emote and the "skin" there is absolutely no difference between the species. This will continue as new ones are added as it's obviously far to late to actually make any differences between them. So what do people think the thought process behind this one was? Purely laziness, make them all the same and we don't need to worry about 8 different progression paths with each of the advanced classes? A want to make that choice totally personal, so you didn't feed you "had" to choose a particular species for a particular class? Would you have liked to have seen a difference? So your choice of species actually made a difference to your character at all? For me personally, yes I would have liked to have seen some stat differences between races. It's something that I was used to in my very first MMORPG and I believe it adds to the feeling of your toon being something more personal to you, rather than a just a stat clone with a different skin. Having said that, I fully understand the reasons for BW not implementing it also. The design choice has a lot to do with the gaming demographic that BW want to attract. I personally am able to accept consequences to my decisions, particularly within a genre such as MMORPG. For me personally, I would welcome the decision "Do I roll a Rodian or a Bothan because they look so cool....or do I roll a Human or Trandoshan because those races have +2 to melee defense" for example. In the example above, if I chose a Rodian or Bothan I personally would be able to accept the fact that this means there will always be players that chose Human and Trandoshan and who will always have an extra 2% on my template therefore I would never be pure max template. But that would be ok because I would have the cool looking race I wanted. Most gamers today find such a consequence unacceptable when making these sorts of decisions. They QQ that choosing one race over another is unfair because the consequence of that choice could mean someone else in game has an extra 2% on them. Essentially the entitlement crowd who want to be a one man army min/maxer no matter what decisions they make. People want choice as long as they dont have to live with the decisions they make and as long as that choice means nobody is any different in the end. It baffles me and always has So what if a racial choice means you suffer a slight dent to the mathematically perfect template, I would be too busy enjoying the game to worry about it and if it did bother me that much I would make the decision to go with the race that gave me a pure template and be happy with that decision, for the same reason I made that decision in the first place. Driz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelodicSixNine Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) They had stuff like this: Rattataki - Passive: 2% Crit Damage Mmm delicious crits. Makes you appreciate current cosmetic aspect of your race, huh? Every crit heavy spec would be Rattataki Edited November 12, 2012 by MelodicSixNine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariaD Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think a lot of people would feel bad if species had different abilities. It would feel analogous to racism. The same reasoning applies to character's gender. As far as fighting or crafting mechanics go, there is no difference whatsoever. There would be an outcry if there were a difference of any sort. WoW has some "racial abilities" - I did not like that part. Especially since some of those abilities are better than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vian Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Do you still get the Legacy Presence bonus if you level a human to 50? That's skating close to a species-advantage, I suppose. On the whole, I'm glad you don't have to start min-maxing the moment the character screen comes up - it lets you create as odd a mix as you like, and stops the all-X-are-Y syndrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stradlin Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Stats I can live with. Looks of pretty much all races being so DULL is more damaging to game as a whole. We have Humans Humans in goth make up Humans with odd patches on their face and/or sunglasses Blind Humans. Green skinned humans, blue skinned humans, humans with tiny horns really don't quite earn that diversity dollar either. I'm prolly forgetting some variation-brought-by-fashion-sense -race or another since they are NOT MEMORABLE OR INTERESTING. Maybe in expansion we get Humans with scar tissue and humans WITH NO HAIR as seperate races. I get the VA/Storyline/LI/Waahwaah dictated motivation of BW to make all races look like they fit the mold of all american action (anti)hero. Still, race or two being even vaguely different would have been a okay really! Cyborgs annoy me the most. So much potential, so incredibly, breath takingly LAME execution. I'm literally surprised they weren't too ashamed to let it go live. When I saw them in Beta, I always assumed those were some placeholder graphics etc. But no. Grey lame random patches of rash on cheeks? Awesome. Now I am the machine. Anyone remember Cyborg skin of player character in Force Unleashed? Now THAT is how you make a cyborg. (Imagine Terminator but more organic and disturbing) Edited November 13, 2012 by Stradlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperawr Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Stats I can live with. Looks of pretty much all races being so DULL is more damaging to game as a whole. We have Humans Humans in goth make up Humans with odd patches on their face and/or sunglasses Blind Humans. Green skinned humans, blue skinned humans, humans with tiny horns really don't quite earn that diversity dollar either. ... This has a lot to do with SWTOR being a story based MMO, romances and all. Personal interactions become odd and unrelatable if you have a character that is too far from human. And let's not forget the romances... they would range from icky to just downright objectionable. Bit of trivia, I picked my BH's race as ratattaki during beta for the 2% crit bonus. They of course took the bonuses out due to player complaints, but I liked my character design so much I stuck with it. So the lack of bonuses is certainly not due to laziness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Costello Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 It would of been nice if race had some effect. It doesn't have much of anything and yet the devs opted that they would all be different colour humans. Effectively giving us a variety of humans to pick from. Which would only appear as a choice to the most guilable of people. Do I want to be a grey human or a red human a blind human or a green human, its no real choice. Which is a shame cause star wars offered so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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