Min/Max PVP Gear

[Asukaa]

I've seen a few people in full WH running around with PVE enhancements? I thought BW removed the DR's on Expertise to resolve this? Are the PVE enhancements still better to use than the PVP ones? Edited November 8, 2012 by Asukaa

[Jadescythe]

I suppose that depends on your class/spec and playstyle. Since the belt/bracers are extremely low on stats, replacing them with a 27 armoring and having the offhand mod in them are significantly better for me on my sorc. It's the same argument that can be made in regards to using expertise or power crystals. I haven't started min/maxing any of my other toons so I can't comment on any other classes.

[chisaineko]

Does make you wonder why the PVP gear is less useful than the PVE gear. Is there some reason a full set of WH armor is not equal in main stats to Campaign/Black Hole armor?

 

If I were bioware, the only real difference between Campaign and WH is that someone using WH in PVE would pay a premium 10-20% to fix the armor.

 

Chisaineko

[DegreesOfFreedom]

Don't know if there was changes to these chart, but looking at my character sheet, I think its still relevant.

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-767.html

 

You start to see DR around 1100-1200 expertise.

 

and this by James Ohlen

http://swtorbattles.blogspot.ca/2012/05/swtors-james-ohlen-shares-formula.html

Edited November 8, 2012 by DegreesOfFreedom

[L-RANDLE]

I've seen a few people in full WH running around with PVE enhancements? I thought BW removed the DR's on Expertise to resolve this? Are the PVE enhancements still better to use than the PVP ones?

 

They didn't remove the DR, they moved DR to be more in line with PvE gear at higher EXP numbers. That was the "buff" to EXP. Second, they adjusted the mitigation and healing down a bit from the buffed number to get TTK to where it is at now. That might sound confusing, but what they did was change the contribution of EXP points to percent increase in PvP because prior to 1.2, PvP gear was actually inferior to its PvE counter part from an output perspective. That's why people could wear RAK gear in WZ(and actually still can). Even with the Buff, once you get past 700 EXP DR starts to kick in, and after 900, mitigation and healing gains are pretty steep DRs. Damage is the only viable stat after 900, so main stat is actually even or better than carrying more EXP.

 

While some disagree, the soft caps for EXP are:

1100 for DPS

1000 for Tanks

900 for Healers

Once you get past those numbers, using PvE (BH/CAMP) armorings will actually significantly increase your output.

 

 

I would never recommend swapping a PvE ENH for a PvP one.. That makes no sense. Even on a Black Hole quality ENH, you are only gaining +4 on a "lower tier" secondary stat (like surge), but losing 30EXP per slot. Every other stat is the same. The BiS min/max comes in when you swap a PvP armoring for a PvE one. The only time you should swap EXP is if you are getting MAIN/END back in the process, as those directly correlate into output and survivability(MAIN for damage/heals and END for mitigation).

 

 

Hope this helps!

[funkiestj]

Good post RANDLE.

[Asukaa]

Hope this helps!

 

It did help! As for me, I personally would rather focus on survivability over dmg. So in that case, would the Expertise be better or would the Endurance be better?

[Joesixxpack]

They didn't remove the DR, they moved DR to be more in line with PvE gear at higher EXP numbers. That was the "buff" to EXP. Second, they adjusted the mitigation and healing down a bit from the buffed number to get TTK to where it is at now. That might sound confusing, but what they did was change the contribution of EXP points to percent increase in PvP because prior to 1.2, PvP gear was actually inferior to its PvE counter part from an output perspective. That's why people could wear RAK gear in WZ(and actually still can). Even with the Buff, once you get past 700 EXP DR starts to kick in, and after 900, mitigation and healing gains are pretty steep DRs. Damage is the only viable stat after 900, so main stat is actually even or better than carrying more EXP.

 

While some disagree, the soft caps for EXP are:

1100 for DPS

1000 for Tanks

900 for Healers

Once you get past those numbers, using PvE (BH/CAMP) armorings will actually significantly increase your output.

 

 

I would never recommend swapping a PvE ENH for a PvP one.. That makes no sense. Even on a Black Hole quality ENH, you are only gaining +4 on a "lower tier" secondary stat (like surge), but losing 30EXP per slot. Every other stat is the same. The BiS min/max comes in when you swap a PvP armoring for a PvE one. The only time you should swap EXP is if you are getting MAIN/END back in the process, as those directly correlate into output and survivability(MAIN for damage/heals and END for mitigation).

 

 

Hope this helps!

 

::Files this gem away for reference....::

[L-RANDLE]

It did help! As for me, I personally would rather focus on survivability over dmg. So in that case, would the Expertise be better or would the Endurance be better?

 

I always say: The only time Mitigation through EXP could be better is, under focus and if you are being healed 100%. This tends to happen in zergfests, but PvP is not about zerging. Another issue is that you are "gaining" mitigation in the hundreds, by sacrificing HP in the thousands. Say 15% reduction of an attacked rated at 5000= 750HP(saved), but you lose 2-4K in HP to save that 750HP. Do you see a difference in taking an attack @ 5000 versus 4250? I don't. I just got pimp slapped for 5K. Sure the difference can add up in said zergfest, but more times than not, you are dead before you can catch up to the loss in HP.

 

Now with that, and knowing the DR on mitigation is crazy bad @ 1000:

 

In objective-based team play, END is just as good, or better, as EXP past 1000

 

 

Class also comes into play. For example.

 

I am a Hybrid Tank Guard. I have a talent called Endure where I increase my max HP 30%. That in conjunction with the PVP medpak after (35% heal), nets me heals over 10k. No healer can match that. Now, knowing the DR on mitigation is around 1000, stacking more would actually nerf my heal at 1300+. I would lose about 1700HP, and my heal would be way weaker... You lose almost 800HP on every Endure/Medpack pop, all to gain 1%. That don't make sense in my eyes...

 

People probably would object to carrying "low" EXP, but some refuse to understand that as long as the player has the proper HP/MAIN trade off, their stats are ALWAYS in the same ballpark. I tell people what the soft caps are, but deep down I am a radical. I say only carry EXP, if it is actually BiS for PvP... 100% PvP BiS pieces are: Impants/Ear/Relics... That's it. After that, you need BH/CAMP armorings and PvP MOD/ENH everywhere else. If you follow that, your EXP will hit that 900-1000 range, you will have a ton more HP and significantly will outpace BiS WH's(assuming same class/spec) output, and still have enough EXP to cancel other players. You can get somewhere around 10% more output and lose only 2-3% in DAM, 1-2% in MIT, and >1% in HEA ...

 

 

Sorry so long.

 

 

L-Randle<-------------Preparing to be flamed my the math iliterate, EXP fanbois.

 

Edited November 9, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[gvettekill]

Personally i believe pure pvp mods is the best way to go. i just pug though, but u get to see fun things like this in perfect storm scenerios.

 

http://imageshack.us/f/839/screenshot2012110819152.jpg/

[Technohic]

I always say: The only time Mitigation through EXP could be better is, under focus and if you are being healed 100%. This tends to happen in zergfests, but PvP is not about zerging. Another issue is that you are "gaining" mitigation in the hundreds, by sacrificing HP in the thousands. Say 15% reduction of an attacked rated at 5000= 750HP(saved), but you lose 2-4K in HP to save that 750HP. Do you see a difference in taking an attack @ 5000 versus 4250? I don't. I just got pimp slapped for 5K. Sure the difference can add up in said zergfest, but more times than not, you are dead before you can catch up to the loss in HP.

 

Now with that, and knowing the DR on mitigation is crazy bad @ 1000:

 

In objective-based team play, END is just as good, or better, as EXP past 1000

 

 

Class also comes into play. For example.

 

I am a Hybrid Tank Guard. I have a talent called Endure where I increase my max HP 30%. That in conjunction with the PVP medpak after (35% heal), nets me heals over 10k. No healer can match that. Now, knowing the DR on mitigation is around 1000, stacking more would actually nerf my heal at 1300+. I would lose about 1700HP, and my heal would be way weaker... You lose almost 800HP on every Endure/Medpack pop, all to gain 1%. That don't make sense in my eyes...

 

People probably would object to carrying "low" EXP, but some refuse to understand that as long as the player has the proper HP/MAIN trade off, their stats are ALWAYS in the same ballpark. I tell people what the soft caps are, but deep down I am a radical. I say only carry EXP, if it is actually BiS for PvP... 100% PvP BiS pieces are: Impants/Ear/Relics... That's it. After that, you need BH/CAMP armorings and PvP MOD/ENH everywhere else. If you follow that, your EXP will hit that 900-1000 range, you will have a ton more HP and significantly will outpace BiS WH's(assuming same class/spec) output, and still have enough EXP to cancel other players. You can get somewhere around 10% more output and lose only 2-3% in DAM, 1-2% in MIT, and >1% in HEA ...

 

 

Sorry so long.

 

 

L-Randle<-------------Preparing to be flamed my the math iliterate, EXP fanbois.

 

You make me want to dust off my assassin and use him to do some PvE grinding, seeing as he is the best toon I have at it.

 

BTW; I wonder how much difference that makes having more endurance stacked rather than EXP when his heals are a percent of health,

[L-RANDLE]

You make me want to dust off my assassin and use him to do some PvE grinding, seeing as he is the best toon I have at it.

 

BTW; I wonder how much difference that makes having more endurance stacked rather than EXP when his heals are a percent of health,

 

If you want to be truely BiS, that is what you have to do. Stacking END is ALWAYS a good thing for % gain HP talents. It would not be quite as powerful as the ENDURE/PVP MEDPAK combo. I mean the difference with Sins is not that big b/c they are small HP gains as far as I know(5%, 2% here and there), but the medpak would scale WAY better for you as well. Since I got a 30% HP increase on a short CD, losing 2K+ HP from pure PvP gear makes my swings HUGE, and not in the good way. So I rather have a significantly bigger heal, than 1% or 2% increase in mitigation.

 

 

 

/whispers I actually have higher than 10k heals.... 8000 endure, +8000 PVP med pak... more like 16K heals and my mitigation is around 15% from EXP, and still missing some PvP WH mods/EH......but don't tell anyone....:D

 

[funkiestj]

The BiS min/max comes in when you swap a PvP armoring for a PvE one. The only time you should swap EXP is if you are getting MAIN/END back in the process, as those directly correlate into output and survivability(MAIN for damage/heals and END for mitigation).

 

Question, set bonuses at WH level (and rakata and above? I don't know PvE sets) follow the armor mods. Are the PvE set bonuses active and useful in PvP?

 

If we were going from PvP armor + set bonus to PvE armor + no set bonus, it would be hard to quantify the value of the bonus. If we are simply changing what the bonus is then we might (correctly or incorrectly) say "meh, close enough, I'll ignore this".

[ovill]

Personally i believe pure pvp mods is the best way to go. i just pug though, but u get to see fun things like this in perfect storm scenerios.

 

http://imageshack.us/f/839/screenshot2012110819152.jpg/

 

I still want to thank the person that gave me an MVP vote for my 15 seconds of game time. I never really believed hits like that were possible, but the other day over in the rep side a sentinel was wearing lvl 41-47 greens, and somewhere near the end of the match, he started ranting about imps hacking (lol).

[Blasphemerr]

Don't know if there was changes to these chart, but looking at my character sheet, I think its still relevant.

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-767.html

 

You start to see DR around 1100-1200 expertise.

 

and this by James Ohlen

http://swtorbattles.blogspot.ca/2012/05/swtors-james-ohlen-shares-formula.html

 

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/expertisegraph.jpg

[L-RANDLE]

Question, set bonuses at WH level (and rakata and above? I don't know PvE sets) follow the armor mods. Are the PvE set bonuses active and useful in PvP?

 

If we were going from PvP armor + set bonus to PvE armor + no set bonus, it would be hard to quantify the value of the bonus. If we are simply changing what the bonus is then we might (correctly or incorrectly) say "meh, close enough, I'll ignore this".

 

So the short answer is yes, it is "meh" in most cases, or even more helpful in some. All PvE TIO-RAK have set bonuses attached to the shells. They are not the same as the PVP bonus, but they are some actually better for PvP. For example, I took a PvE 2 piece bonus from RAK that offers a bonus on Warding Call, since the 4 set bonus from PVP Vindicator is a bonus for damage, but the 2piece Vindicator is really needed for a tank.

 

Now at the WH level.

The WH armoring carries the bonus. So if you are swapping for CAMP Armoring, you would have to choose the PvE set bonus instead. Now if you choose the Black Hole armoring, just use BM shells. Then you keep your PVP set bonus, but not lose out on the gains in output.

 

Does this explain it well enough? Sounds like I made it pretty complicated..

[funkiestj]

Thanks for the info RANDLE

[Jepplen]

I think this deserves a push to the first page

 

My question is, BH armorings are really expensive (at least about 38 comms per piece) Now that takes a long while to grind seeing they are mostly only Daily and Weekly rewards.

 

On the other hand you have the Daily armorings you can buy, they are of course not even close to BH, but still gives about 12-15 stat increase. The question is...

Say you are still above the said Expertise levels, would you still benefit to lose 50 exp over 12-15 main stat or endurence increase?

[L-RANDLE]

I think this deserves a push to the first page

 

My question is, BH armorings are really expensive (at least about 38 comms per piece) Now that takes a long while to grind seeing they are mostly only Daily and Weekly rewards.

 

On the other hand you have the Daily armorings you can buy, they are of course not even close to BH, but still gives about 12-15 stat increase. The question is...

Say you are still above the said Expertise levels, would you still benefit to lose 50 exp over 12-15 main stat or endurence increase?

 

No. You would keep EXP in that case.. You have to gain about 18 main/end for every 25 EXP dropped for it to be a similar output. The only question I have now is when Trauma is actually applied.. I been looking at my combat logs and I still am unconvinced how it actually works, so I can't say its a 100% good thing for healers as of yet, but I am still leaning that way because of something I discovered in the log. I need to examine it more, but for now only use the above as a point...

Edited January 10, 2013 by L-RANDLE

[Ravashakk]

No. You would keep EXP in that case.. You have to gain about 18 main/end for every 25 EXP dropped for it to be a similar output. The only question I have now is when Trauma is actually applied.. I been looking at my combat logs and I still am unconvinced how it actually works, so I can't say its a 100% good thing for healers as of yet, but I am still leaning that way because of something I discovered in the log. I need to examine it more, but for now only use the above as a point...

 

The formula I'm going to use is to determine the average HoT tick of SRM.

(1 + crit%*critmult)*noncritHOTvalue*(trauma% + expertisehealing%) = average HoT tick in combat (which is what matters)

 

http://i45.tinypic.com/2na5m2t.jpg

(1 + .3755*.7988)*893*.8344 = 968.62

 

http://i50.tinypic.com/eqqvpy.jpg

(1 + .3773*.7988)*898*.8306 = 970.68

 

http://i48.tinypic.com/ind9pg.jpg

(1 + .3791*.7988)*902*.8267 = 971.5

 

http://i46.tinypic.com/34fd1c8.jpg

(1 + .3808*.7988)*907*.8227 = 973.17

 

http://i46.tinypic.com/2m2axpw.jpg

(1 + .3826*.7988)*912*.8187 = 974.85

 

Now for the ~1.8% drop in dmg mitigation....If smash hits me for ~6500 in my current setup, then with 0 armor/expertise/talentdmgmitigation I would take 6500/.8176/.8048/.96 = 10,289.95 dmg

 

1.8% of 10,289.95 dmg is 185.22 additional dmg mitigated. That is 1 attack (and we can all agree a very common attack these days). The extra 600 health I got, and 6 extra healing on my average HOT tick does not compare to the mitigation you lose.

[byteresistor]

Is there some reason a full set of WH armor is not equal in main stats to Campaign/Black Hole armor?

Expertise?

[L-RANDLE]

The formula I'm going to use is to determine the average HoT tick of SRM.

(1 + crit%*critmult)*noncritHOTvalue*(trauma% + expertisehealing%) = average HoT tick in combat (which is what matters)

 

http://i45.tinypic.com/2na5m2t.jpg

(1 + .3755*.7988)*893*.8344 = 968.62

 

http://i50.tinypic.com/eqqvpy.jpg

(1 + .3773*.7988)*898*.8306 = 970.68

 

http://i48.tinypic.com/ind9pg.jpg

(1 + .3791*.7988)*902*.8267 = 971.5

 

http://i46.tinypic.com/34fd1c8.jpg

(1 + .3808*.7988)*907*.8227 = 973.17

 

http://i46.tinypic.com/2m2axpw.jpg

(1 + .3826*.7988)*912*.8187 = 974.85

 

Now for the ~1.8% drop in dmg mitigation....If smash hits me for ~6500 in my current setup, then with 0 armor/expertise/talentdmgmitigation I would take 6500/.8176/.8048/.96 = 10,289.95 dmg

 

1.8% of 10,289.95 dmg is 185.22 additional dmg mitigated. That is 1 attack (and we can all agree a very common attack these days). The extra 600 health I got, and 6 extra healing on my average HOT tick does not compare to the mitigation you lose.

 

I don't think a HoT is a good example given the damage of Smash and the HP of a HoT. A DoT.... or your big heal to a Smash would be a better comparison (even though Smash got some issues)...

[L-RANDLE]

(trauma% + expertisehealing%)

 

BTW this is the part of the formula that I am questioning in my logs...

[Ravashakk]

I don't think a HoT is a good example given the damage of Smash and the HP of a HoT. A DoT.... or your big heal to a Smash would be a better comparison (even though Smash got some issues)...

 

The whole purpose of using a hot (which btw makes up a large portion of overall healing) is because it is static. You see the same returns from aoe heal (which makes up another signicant portion of healing), DS (practically the rest of the healing)....all of which are static and easily measured using this method. So to summarize, you see maybe a 15-20 hps increase using PVE armorings/barrels in the best of situations, and like less than 8 hps in other situations.

 

As a healer I can say that mitigation is king compared to an equal amount of endurance. It is skewed even more when you put guard into the equation.

[TheBabyEater]

900 for Healers

 

For the love of all that is holy, if you're a healer, do not stop at 900 because that will only hurt the person guarding you... and you do want someone guarding you, right?