Question for experienced PVE HM/FP tanks

[ShadowMstr]

I have read numerous threads and "handbooks" but am looking for the answer to a couple of specific questions, that I cannot find direct answers to.

 

First, I am Shadow Tank, level 50, 31/0/10. I am wearing BM gear at the moment, but these questions are not about gear, since my guild and I are running dailies to change the gear to PVE gear. So my questions are not about gear or PVP things. These questions are solely for running PVE HM's, FP's, etc.

 

Question 1.) What are the best stuns/interrupts for PVE mobs? I am able to generate threat easily enough with force pull or mind control for bosses, elites, etc. However, there are points where a DPS starts taking substantial damage from a mob, while I am tanking a main target, and I want to be able to toss a stun/interrupt/something into the mob group to assist....but I am not sure what that would be.

 

Question 2.) While moving the bosses around, I will sometimes lose agro. If I am too close for force pull and my mind control is on cool down.... what is next best thing to generate threat? I am not sure in what order the things that generate threat go from most to least is what I am trying to say I guess.

 

Thank you for any help and advice you can provide.

[Assillius]

force pull has nice agro. the best mind control (taunt). then probably project but slow time costs less so slow time + force breach better, in addition it is 5 target dmg good crowd control. Mass mind control generates no or low agro basically it only forces mobs to attak you compare to taunt so if you won't do some dmg to them they will run to healer after 6 sec. ends

[Kitru]

Mass mind control generates no or low agro

 

This is explicitly wrong. Mass Mind Control, just like *all* of the AoE Taunts, behaves *exactly the same* as the ST taunt with the exception that it targets everything within 15m of you as opposed to just the one you targeted.

 

Secondly, Force Pull does not generate particularly good aggro and, if you're using it as a threat generator rather than a positioning tool, you're doing it wrong (just like every shadow or sage that uses Force Wave as if it were an attack rather than a positioning tool is doing it wrong). Force Pull generates a flat quantity of threat that is only marginally better than the amount of threat you generate with Double Strike.

 

Assuming your group actually uses appropriate targeting priority (healer>weak>standard>strong>elite>champ), the only starting threat you should need is Slow Time + Project. Using Taunt as part of your primary threat gen is a crutch. The only time you should ever need it are for tank swaps, after threat drops, and when you're substantially undergeared compared to your DPS

 

As to losing boss threat while moving, are you actually staying within 10m and still throwing down with Slow Time and Project? If Taunt isn't strong enough and it's on CD, then you used it too early. Starting *any* fight off with Taunt is simply idiotic because Taunt's threat generation is entirely dependent upon the existing threat on the target. Using Taunt when no substantial threat has been generated on the target yet means that you're not going to get any threat gen out of it. The only benefit you'd get is the 6 seconds of forced attacking, which is, honestly, not even remotely useful compared to the threat generation benefits.

 

If you're having problems keeping aggro on everything in a trash pull, either you are doing it wrong (re: not going out and tapping every monster at least once to make sure it doesn't nom the healer's face; if something already has aggro on you and other enemies in the fight don't, you shouldn't still be punching the thing that has aggro on you in the face) or your DPS is (re: focusing firing an elite rather than using the aforementioned appropriate kill order). You shouldn't need to use stuns just because a random mob is punching a DPS or a healer; if they're an elite and they're not in close proximity to your Slow Time target, it should have been CCd before you started the fight. Interrupts won't do anything for your threat either and are only going to save someone if the target is casting something (and it's a bit of a waste to interrupt a channel that's already 90% done).

 

Something you may want to consider, when dealing with enemies outside of the Slow Time radius on your primary threat target, is to Force Pull enemies outside of that radius so that they *will* be hit by it. If you' (and your DPS) are doing it right, Slow Time is the only thing you really need to keep an entire mob happily focused on attempting to beat your face in.

[Jimvinny]

What Kitru is saying, is that taunt should be used if/when you are in danger of or have already lost threat to a dps. what taunt actually does is place your threat level a certain % above that of the next highest threat, whether that is yourself or not. for these reasons, taunt is NOT a good opener.

 

if you are losing aggro to a dps, first thing to check is whether you have that dps guarded. next thing, make sure that you are using all your high-threat abilities like slow and breach. Regarding Force pull, I personally use it as an opener in a single target boss fight where DPS will not first be clearing adds. Even though it has no physical effect, I find force pull> force speed> force slow> force breach will stop even a 2K dps sentinel from pulling off me in HM EC on stormcaller. Any sentinel who knows what they are doing WILL pull off you early in a fight if you don't maximize your threat generation, so if this should happen, that is the perfect time to use your taunt.

 

As Kitru mentioned, training dps is a big thing too. As much as they like bashing on the elite to get big numbers, their job is to clear the trash first, working from weakest to strongest. It's tough to get this to happen in a Pug, but running with guildies, they should be doing this regardless.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Jimvinny

[ShadowMstr]

This is all very useful information, TY.

 

I do open with force pull, even if it doesn't move the elite because what I have experienced (not based on the math, just what it seems like to me) is that I almost never lose agro if I do this....and sometimes (though rare) do lose agro if I do not open with it.... so I just default to opening with it out of habit now.

 

I also use the mind control/mass mind control for times that I lose agro or I hear things like "Im not sure I can save X player" because they accidentally got swarmed or something... I then taunt to pull all agro from them so the healer can save them quickly and we can re-adjust. (That is just an example of using it in an emergency)

 

I appreciate the time you took to respond to my thread. If you think of anything else, please let me know.

[TheBigGregski]

Sorry guys, taunt CAN be a good opener, especially on bosses with short enrage timers.

 

My standart opening rotation is force pull > taunt > force potency > project > force breach > slow time > DS > project > mass taunt > TK throw

 

And no way i'm losing my boss to the serious aggro ho's i've got in my guild

[BlznSmri]

Sorry guys, taunt CAN be a good opener, especially on bosses with short enrage timers.

 

My standart opening rotation is force pull > taunt > force potency > project > force breach > slow time > DS > project > mass taunt > TK throw

 

And no way i'm losing my boss to the serious aggro ho's i've got in my guild

 

While it probably works, that is in no way Ideal.

[Kitru]

Sorry guys, taunt CAN be a good opener

 

No, it can't. You're generating a pittance of threat by using it that early. The only benefit you're getting it buying yourself 6 seconds of time that the target is forced to attack you before using your mass taunt to actually generate some reasonable degree of threat.

 

And btw, that is quite possibly the worst time to use Force Potency that I can think of. Force Breach barely tickles, and Project, without PA, is almost painfully low damage. FP should be used just before TkT when you have a PA proc active so you can get a massively huge TkT, potentially at long range to boot, combined with a super hard hitting Project that won't waste an FP charge on an Upheaval hit (seriously, I wish they would do something about Upheaval eating FP charges because it's friggin' annoying).

 

And no way i'm losing my boss to the serious aggro ho's i've got in my guild

 

I've got DPS in my guild that routinely pull in excess of 1.9k DPS, and I've never had a problem with threat on them, nor anyone else while playing my Shadow. Why? I actually know how to generate threat effectively (opening with Force Pull is not one of those ways; you start the fight before you're actually in melee and are on the GCD, which puts you slightly behind on threat gen) because I don't rely on Taunt spamming to keep attention on me. On a boss, you're best served by charging in with Force Speed (to close the gap and start combat with an actual attack rather than a positioning tool) and then using Project>Slow Time>Force Breach>Double Strike>Project>(Force Potency)TkT>DS>Project>Slow Time. Once you let loose with a Force Potency + TkT, you're pretty much set for threat for the entire rest of the fight since it hits *so friggin' hard*. If I'm the second tank for whatever reason, that's actually when I tend to yank threat from the first tank purely by generating substantially more threat than them.

 

Taunt, as a threat generation tool, is a crutch. If you have to use it to keep aggro, it's because you're limping rather than charging in head first on the threat meters.

[anstalt]

On a boss, you're best served by charging in with Force Speed (to close the gap and start combat with an actual attack rather than a positioning tool) and then using Project>Slow Time>Force Breach>Double Strike>Project>(Force Potency)TkT>DS>Project>Slow Time. Once you let loose with a Force Potency + TkT, you're pretty much set for threat for the entire rest of the fight since it hits *so friggin' hard*. If I'm the second tank for whatever reason, that's actually when I tend to yank threat from the first tank purely by generating substantially more threat than them.

 

This is pretty much the same opening rotation I use on my tank and I virtually never lose aggro either.

 

All I would say / do differently is I *do* use force pull as part of my opening rotation (usually first skill). I tend to use it whilst running in, so its force speed -> force pull (whilst at 15-20m) -> project (once im within 10m) -> rest of rotation.

 

The reason I do this is because a) its something to do whilst im running in and b) as soon as the raid leader says "go" the DPS force-leap in so I want to start building aggro right from the start. Yes, the DPS *could* wait that extra second or two for me to run in, but they dont want to and force-pull allows them to leap in straight away so its all good.

 

This is especially important on something like the tanks in EC where i routinely noob out and miss the first jump on to the tank

[toyfanatic]

I have read numerous threads and "handbooks" but am looking for the answer to a couple of specific questions, that I cannot find direct answers to.

 

First, I am Shadow Tank, level 50, 31/0/10. I am wearing BM gear at the moment, but these questions are not about gear, since my guild and I are running dailies to change the gear to PVE gear. So my questions are not about gear or PVP things. These questions are solely for running PVE HM's, FP's, etc.

 

Question 1.) What are the best stuns/interrupts for PVE mobs? I am able to generate threat easily enough with force pull or mind control for bosses, elites, etc. However, there are points where a DPS starts taking substantial damage from a mob, while I am tanking a main target, and I want to be able to toss a stun/interrupt/something into the mob group to assist....but I am not sure what that would be.

 

Question 2.) While moving the bosses around, I will sometimes lose agro. If I am too close for force pull and my mind control is on cool down.... what is next best thing to generate threat? I am not sure in what order the things that generate threat go from most to least is what I am trying to say I guess.

 

Thank you for any help and advice you can provide.

 

Some finer points to give you are , augment the battle masters gear you have. It is low on endurance and absorb. If you are tanking HM fp's you should have atleast 20k hp. There is too much free gear in this game for people to go back to low hp tanks. A side thought if you are doing a OPS, you wil be moving the boss around alot- so its a good habit to retaunt durring fights . A key point that hasn't been spoken of - due to the nature of a shadows tanking mechanics you will have a easier time if you learn the fights. Doing so will help in your survival and also in your threat geneation, some bosses have a agro dump durring various phases. I know that is a general statement, but the little tricks of when to use wich cooldown and ability will seperate you from the substandard tanks and the amazing ones.

As a shadow we sometimes have trouble with medium size mobs don't run into the mob and AoE taunt. Start with slow time and reinceforce with whirling blow then hit with AoE taunt by the time you recast slow time the whole mob will only be intersted in you.

Force pull is great but is almost useless in many boss fights, it should only be used to reposition enimies.

[Kajuana]

And btw, that is quite possibly the worst time to use Force Potency that I can think of. Force Breach barely tickles, and Project, without PA, is almost painfully low damage.

 

Umm... Force Potency makes Project an auto-crit most of the time.

You don't really need PA, and the damage isn't bad either to gain initial aggro.

Damage on force breach (and slow time) is a little questionable in use with PA,

but unless we can reproc project right away our other damage abilities only tickle the enemy anyway.

 

In tank rotation I usually, Force speed > Kinetic Ward > (Force pull) > Force Potency > Slow Time > Project > Force Breach > (Double slash) > Slow Time / Project > Telekinetics Throw > Standard cycle

 

Standard cycle with 1 mob: Slow Time > Project > (Double slash) > Slow Time / Project > Telekinetics Throw > Kinetic Ward > repeat

 

Standard cycle with multiple mobs: Slow Time > Force Breach > Project > (Double slash) > Slow Time / Project > Telekinetics Throw > Kinetic Ward > repeat

 

(I stil don't get how this type of rotation is powerful in PvP, but that's for a new thread)

 

As with the previous post, opening with Force Speed and Force Pull isn't so much for aggroing, but for positioning anyway.On bosses, you can't "pull" them anyway, so it's just additional aggro from afar before your standard rotation kicks in.

[TheBigGregski]

No, it can't.

 

YES IT CAN. Could you once in a while consider your way isn't the ONLY way ? I've used this opening rotation since the first shadow tank revamp (1.2 or something) and it WORKS. Period. And I too have some 1900+ dps in my guild. Only times I do otherwise is when i know i'll need my taunt for some other use (add picking, tank swapping, etc.)

 

And btw, Force Breach does not (for an unknown reason) consume Force Potency charges.

[Kitru]

YES IT CAN.

 

You can use it if you want to, but I wouldn't recommend using it in such a way to anyone else since it's such a sub-optimal way of using Taunt. Just because you *can* use an ability does not equate to it being an efficacious use of the ability. Keep in mind that you're not calling it just an "opener". You're calling it a *good* opener, which, from a threat standpoint, it's not. The *only* benefit you're getting out of using it at that point is buying you 6 seconds, which, with a decent opening threat generation string, you don't need. Calling it a "good" opener is like calling TkT a "good" attack when you have no stacks of HS.

 

And btw, Force Breach does not (for an unknown reason) consume Force Potency charges.

 

I just tested this out and find it to be kinda strange. I distinctly recall testing it out months ago when the game was released, and it consumed it then. I can only guess it's a bug somehow tied to it being changed to high threat.

[KeyboardNinja]

Assuming your group actually uses appropriate targeting priority (healer>weak>standard>strong>elite>champ), the only starting threat you should need is Slow Time + Project. Using Taunt as part of your primary threat gen is a crutch. The only time you should ever need it are for tank swaps, after threat drops, and when you're substantially undergeared compared to your DPS

 

I actually don't agree with this. I'm better geared than the DPS I run with, I have a highly optimized and polished rotation that optimizes threat, and even when my procs all align, they *still* pull off me. For fights like the EC hover tanks, the TFB tentacles and the Writhing Horror, this can be a major problem, so I tend to taunt boost aggressively in a scripted sequence with my high threat abilities. Of course, after the first 15 seconds of the fight, threat is a non-issue and they'll never pull again, but in that early phase…

 

The problem is that tanks with a highly threat-optimized rotation will put out about 2.0 - 2.2k TPS, depending on procs. As a shadow, you have some options here and can go with a more predictable rotation (foregoing Particle Acceleration) with lower theoretical threat but better reliability (I do this on some fights). In any case, that's beside the point. A geared DPS will be doing about 1900 DPS. That's comfortably behind the tanks, but only on average. The opening moments of a fight are extremely tenuous, since a DPS with all their cooldowns up can easily burst out 2.5-3k and hold it for 10-15 seconds. (at least, that's what my lightning Sorc is able to do without even really trying to burst) That's a big, big problem, since there's no way a tank can burst that high that fast. You may take comfort in the fact that the DPS who is ripping agro off you will no longer have their cooldowns up in a moment, and so their DPS will drop precipitously until those timers expire, but by that point they're already dead, so the point is moot.

 

Thus, I taunt boost. I think TFB HM is a pretty good case study for how this works. My opening looks like the following:

 

• Project (on boss)
  
• <await spawn>
  
• Slow Time (on tentacle)
  
• Force Breach
  
• <single target taunt>
  
• Double Strike
  
• Double Strike <assume proc>
  
• Project
  
• <aoe taunt>
  
• <force potency>
  
• Telekinetic Throw
  
• Double Strike
  
• Double Strike <assume proc>
  
• Project
  
• Slow Time
  
• Force Breach
  
• <single target taunt>
  

 

Note that due to the shield/defense procs that I'm getting during this fight, my excessive use of Double Strike in the above actually works just fine. I'll finish this sequence at around 60 Force, after which I will start weaving in Saber Strike to manage my energy.

 

If the proc RNG doesn't favor me, then I may pop my taunts a bit sooner. The AoE taunt goes out right before Telekinetic Throw, or 1s before Slow Time goes off cooldown, whichever comes first. The Single Target Taunt happens on cooldown, but can be delayed if I was able to get both Project procs (especially the one with Force Potency). Pushing the STT back two cooldowns is nice since it allows me to get two more high-threat abilities in before boosting a third time.

 

This rotation gives me a massive amount of threat, as well as about 23 seconds of nearly guaranteed agro. I have found (during progression on this boss) that if I deviate from this scripted series, my DPS will rip tentacle agro off me, resulting in the AoE slam. Note that this happens even with the guard! Fortunately, if we've made it to the end of my proc'd Telekinetic Throw and I haven't yet lost agro, I can rest easy in the knowledge that I'm pretty much not going to lose it again. After that point, my taunts take a back seat and I just hold agro the old fashioned way. The only time I will taunt boost again (on the same tentacle) is if I need to help DPS one of the larva/beacons, in which case a single-target taunt will be enough to put my mind at ease.

 

For reference, the DPS I usually tank against on my tentacle are a hybrid-spec Sage with 2pc PvE + 2pc PvP set bonuses and a gunnery spec Commando. Both parse (on average) 1900-2000, and unfortunately both specs have heavily front-loaded burst (especially the sage).

 

There's no question that a well-played shadow can easily keep ahead of any DPS on average, but the opening moments of a fight are a completely different story. Taunt boosting is your very best friend.

 

And btw, Force Breach does not (for an unknown reason) consume Force Potency charges.

 

It does, albeit quite rarely. Force Breach appears to have some sort of special mechanic that reduces its critical chance. I see nothing to support this in the game's script files, but I can't deny that I've seen the same things you have. I have seen Force Breach consume charges of Force Potency (when I've been derpy about my rotation), but I've also see many instances where it doesn't.

Edited November 7, 2012 by KeyboardNinja

[Kitru]

I actually don't agree with this. I'm better geared than the DPS I run with, I have a highly optimized and polished rotation that optimizes threat, and even when my procs all align, they *still* pull off me.

 

I must be some kind of unholy abomination of threat generation because, even when they're blowing CDs and getting crit strings, my DPS don't pull off of me. The only times they *do* are when the worst offenders (generally the Sentinels, but there is a Commando in my guild that has a habit of exploding threat right off the bat) aren't Guarded *and* my procs don't go off *and* they get lucky with crits. Barring that unholy trinity of bad luck and forgetfulness, DPS never pulls off of me (and, yes, I've dealt with DPS that routinely push upwards of 2k on single target fights). With Guards on 'em, I don't have any problems whatsoever (and I've regularly challenged all number of top tier raid DPS to try and pull off of me, to no avail). I've taught myself to not use Taunt unless it's absolutely necessary and consider it to be something of a personal failing when I have to.

 

In the early portions of a fight, it's pretty paramount to get to that first FP + TkT asap. Once you get there, it's pretty much a smooth ride the rest of the way. As such, I don't really see the point in going for a second DS before your second Project just to increase your chance of getting a PA proc. DS generates less threat than a Project, barring Upheaval procs, by about 30%, and you're doing it just to get a guaranteed 50% additional threat. It's a reasonable exchange, but you're backloading that FP + TkT (which generates substantially more than a PA Project will), which brings down your TPS in those crucial first seconds. Purely from the standpoint of maximizing burst threat generation, you're better off not delaying TkT and just plowing on through as soon as Project comes off of CD.

[KeyboardNinja]

I must be some kind of unholy abomination of threat generation because, even when they're blowing CDs and getting crit strings, my DPS don't pull off of me.

 

Well, you do stack more willpower than I do. :-) Here's some data:

 

• AMR Profile: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/6d0035cb-8938-4f38-8073-e75392f0b410
  
• Recent TFB HM kill: http://www.torparse.com/a/43586/33
  

 

Note that I got exceptionally unlucky with my PA proc opening up against the first tentacle, which is what led to that desperate string of Double Strikes. I was actually about to abandon the proc altogether and just drop the unproc'd Project to eat the second FP charge when I got PA on that last strike. I was actually spending a good chunk of that fight watching other people, so my rotation wasn't as crisp as I usually strive for. A better example is the previous attempt on that boss (unsuccessful due to larva coordination issues): http://www.torparse.com/a/43586/32

 

In the early portions of a fight, it's pretty paramount to get to that first FP + TkT asap. Once you get there, it's pretty much a smooth ride the rest of the way. As such, I don't really see the point in going for a second DS before your second Project just to increase your chance of getting a PA proc. DS generates less threat than a Project, barring Upheaval procs, by about 30%, and you're doing it just to get a guaranteed 50% additional threat. It's a reasonable exchange, but you're backloading that FP + TkT (which generates substantially more than a PA Project will), which brings down your TPS in those crucial first seconds. Purely from the standpoint of maximizing burst threat generation, you're better off not delaying TkT and just plowing on through as soon as Project comes off of CD.

 

You're forgetting that I used Project immediately before my TkT, so it's not going to be off cooldown before two Double Strikes anyway. Also, according to my calculations, once you factor in the proc chance, Double Strike actually generates almost as much threat as Project on average. If you already have Force Potency up, then you're much better off spamming Double Strike (to a point) to get the Particle Acceleration proc, since the damage enhancement on PA+FP pushes the value of Double Strike over the value of a flat, un-proc'd Project (even with FP).

 

Double Strike is actually a fairly nice ability once you factor in the proc, its only problem is the Force cost. The ironic thing is that even once you factor in the force cost, it's still a very high-threat ability (on average) in terms of threat-per-force! When I did my calculations a few weeks back (with slightly weaker gear), the TPF for Double Strike was 145.7339, while the TPF for raw Project was 95.3759. That's the strength of the PA proc.

 

There are really two problems with Double Strike: its proc chance is only 60%, and its force cost is high enough relative to regen rate that it causes starvation and rotation delay issues when you use it enough to see consistent procs. Altogether, this means that a Double Strike-using shadow will delay their TkT relative to a Project-on-cooldown rotation in pretty much any situation where the Double Strike user is not being hit by an endless barrage of physical attacks (so anything except the first phase of TFB).

 

The backloading argument I think is very valid. Another, equally valid argument would be that I'm putting a good percentage of my "first 15 seconds" threat in the hands of RNG. There's a lot to be said there. I really might be better served by opening up hard and deterministic (Slow Time -> Project -> …), falling back into the proc-dependent rotation after the first little bit. The proc-dependent rotation is really good in terms of threat generation, so long as you have the force to support it.

Edited November 7, 2012 by KeyboardNinja

[Kitru]

You're forgetting that I used Project immediately before my TkT

 

No, I'm not. The CD on Project starts the moment that you activate it. As such, you have to use 3 GCDs worth of attacks to use it again. You used Project>Slow Time>Force Breach>DS>DS>Project. That's a 1.5 sec delay on generating your 3rd HS stack purely for the goal of getting a PA proc. That 1.5 sec delay ends up costing you, especially since it's only got a slightly less than 25% chance of doing anything useful (the first DS has a 51% chance of generating a stack for you, so there's only a 49% chance that you'll to use DS a second time anyways) at the cost of delaying your burst threat gen by an appreciable amount.

 

Double Strike actually generates almost as much threat as Project on average.

 

My math puts it at roughly 90% of the threat that Project generates (factoring in miss chance, proc chance, the fact that PA only affects the initial hit assuming Upheaval procs, averaged out for existing crit chance on Project, etc.). Depending on your definition of "almost", we may agree, but there's still a definite advantage to Project. The only time I ever bother to delay Project for DS is when I have FP up and, even then, it's debatable whether it's worth delaying further HS generation and TkT use. The problem with any Project-delay strategy is that it has relatively far reaching consequences in your threat generation down the line since each delay ends up compounding upon itself.

 

There are really two problems with Double Strike: its proc chance is only 60%, and its force cost is high enough relative to regen rate that it causes starvation and rotation delay issues when you use it enough to see consistent procs. Altogether, this means that a Double Strike-using shadow will delay their TkT relative to a Project-on-cooldown rotation in pretty much any situation where the Double Strike user is not being hit by an endless barrage of physical attacks (so anything except the first phase of TFB).

 

The proc chance is actually 51% per DS (assuming guaranteed hits). 30% per hit with 2 hits equates to a 49% chance of the proc not activating since each attack attempts to activate the proc separately (1 - (1-.3) * (1-.3)).

 

It's for the reasons you've given that I've abandoned DS except when I've got excess Force and my only other real option is Saber Strike. HS stack generation is too important to survivability as well as threat generation, thanks to its low cost and *amazing* damage, to delay it purely for potential short term returns.

 

I really might be better served by opening up hard and deterministic (Slow Time -> Project -> …), falling back into the proc-dependent rotation after the first little bit.

 

The advantage of the deterministic rotation is its general predictability (not relying on PA procs) combined with superior survivability (the least delay in TkT use). I would also argue, based purely on the fact that you're using more TkT than any other rotation, that you're also going to do more damage by virtue of TkT's wondrously low Force cost (allowing you to use DS as replacement for Saber Strikes more often while still using Project and Slow Time on CD) and most excellent damage (per GCD, HSx3 TkT hits 25% harder than Project). The only thing available to Shadows that hits harder than HSx3 TkT per GCD is Spinning Strike, and, even then, HSx3 TkT is still the best threat per Force you're gonna get (outside of Saber Strike, that is).

 

The biggest question will be, and always will be when looking at Shadow Tank DPS and TPS, whether delaying TkT is worthwhile compared to the gains achieved by such a delay and whether the accrual of such delays over the course of an entire fight has a substantial negative impact compared to the deterministic prioritization.

[arkitip]

Is this what tank epeen debates look like?

[feliix]

Is this what tank epeen debates look like?

 

Definitely not! It looks like a well thought out discussion regarding the finer points

of threat generation for shadow tanks. Especially during the opening moments of

an encounter. Later in the discussion, it meanders a bit into overall rotation and

potential problems with long term threat generation.

 

I really appreciate the time taken in this post (and others) to help clarify the reasoning

behind different approaches to tanking for shadow.

[feliix]

Is this what tank epeen debates look like?

 

Definitely not! It looks like a well thought out discussion regarding the finer points

of threat generation for shadow tanks. Especially during the opening moments of

an encounter. Later in the discussion, it meanders a bit into overall rotation and

potential problems with long term threat generation.

 

I really appreciate the time taken in this post (and others) to help clarify the reasoning

behind different approaches to tanking for shadow.

[crazyBE]

Taunt, as a threat generation tool, is a crutch. If you have to use it to keep aggro, it's because you're limping rather than charging in head first on the threat meters.

 

Ataru sents would like to have a word with you, especially when starting with Inspiration + Adrenal

 

* There is a possibility of having 3 or more of those sents in your group. Good luck guarding them all.

* Telling them to not go all out at the start is pathetic. DPS focus on damage, not threat. Threat is a tank mechanic, only you should be paying attention to it.

* It's not like you ever NEED to use the aoe taunt in a boss fight anyways (aside from Terror Temper Tantrum...but you use taunt for the debuff and not for threat during that phase)

 

It's just hitting 1 button at the start, not gonna hurt anyone to be careful

[Docmal]

The only times they *do* are when the worst offenders (generally the Sentinels, but there is a Commando in my guild that has a habit of exploding threat right off the bat) aren't Guarded *and* my procs don't go off *and* they get lucky with crits. Barring that unholy trinity of bad luck and forgetfulness, DPS never pulls off of me (and, yes, I've dealt with DPS that routinely push upwards of 2k on single target fights). With Guards on 'em, I don't have any problems whatsoever (and I've regularly challenged all number of top tier raid DPS to try and pull off of me, to no avail). I've taught myself to not use Taunt unless it's absolutely necessary and consider it to be something of a personal failing when I have to.

 

This made me think of something I found on my last HM TFB... We subbed in a very well geared combat spec sent for this run because we were short a person and he pulled threat from me a couple times on the first tenticle (which like you said doesn't happen much to a shadow). I noticed he was standing almost on top of the tenticle and I had lazily positioned myself a few meters back. I adjusted on the next tenticle and pushed in very close. I did not have another threat drop during the fight.

 

It seems that even though there is a threat reduction buff for being close to the tenticle the normal increased threat for short melee range still has an effect.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Docmal

[Kitru]

Ataru sents would like to have a word with you

 

They've tried. They still don't manage to do it even when they don't have Guard. I actively challenge every DPS I run with to try and pull boss threat off of me without being idiots about it (re: not taunting just because they can), and I've yet to meet one that can actually do it. If you *have* to burn your taunt in the starting moments of a fight, you're doing something wrong as a Shadow. Our threat generation is more than enough to not need to do so.

[Kitru]

It seems that even though there is a threat reduction buff for being close to the tenticle the normal increased threat for short melee range still has an effect.

 

There isn't a threat increase for being in melee range. There is a reduced threat requirement to pull aggro (110% of current target's threat as opposed to 130% of current target's). What likely happened is that that the sentinel you're referring to managed to burst up to 110% of your threat in the opening volley with a combination of CDs and lucky crits and pulled aggro because he was standing too close to the tentacle when he wouldn't have if he was at maximum melee range. You didn't lose aggro for the remainder of the fight because he didn't generate as much aggro because he didn't have the confluence of luck and CDs and/or decided to actually stand at the proper range so that he wasn't in the 110% threat range. The only benefit standing in melee would have done you would have been providing yourself with a lower threshold of natural threat in order to pull the tentacle off of him if he did pull off of you again.

[KeyboardNinja]

Quick post to follow up on some of the earlier discussion regarding rotation. I did some proc chain calculations and simple simulations with my current stats over the last week. Full write up isn't ready yet, but the immediate conclusion is apparent:

 

Comparing the Project proc chain directly against the DS proc chain yields the following (baseline is Project, comparator is DS):

 

• DPS : -14.87%
  
• TPS : -19.20%
  
• DPE : +36.40%
  
• TPE : +29.47%
  

 

So, the conventional wisdom is half-right: Project is higher damage and higher threat. However, a Project-dependent rotation appears to be significantly less force-efficient over time. Of course, these numbers are meaningless without seeing how I computed the proc chain. As I said, full write up to come. Just wanted to complete the discussion with Kitru.