I didn't realise how bad PvP was broken, until tonight - and why nobody does RWZ's

[MusicRider]

Let me get this straight. You have an issue that 4-5 players are attacking you and you are not able to survive? Well unless you are CHUCK NORRIS it is kind of difficult you know.

 

Regarding CC, flash grenades are annoying but they are there so why not use them. It's the same with the new bubble stun of sages/sorcs.

[SuperDaioz]

Player mentality is the issue not just OP but in general.

 

eg 1: Pugging Warzones In recruit gear and getting roflstomped

 

Mentality 1: Thats ******* awesome Im gonna be that bad *** when I hit WH gear

Mentality 2: Hackers, this is BS PVP is broken

 

eg 2: RWZ Spanking

 

Mentality 1: Hit the Ranked Group button again

Mentality 2: Hackers, this is BS PVP is broken - potential RWZ team disband

 

If there were 6 teams every night you wouldn't be getting spanked by the elite every game. If there are 6 teams every night and you lose to all of them then you need to look at your own team.

 

To OP if you replaced one player in the opposing team and roflstomped your team would these things be an issue?

 

PVP pride hurts when you lose unfortunately a little too much for most.

[ParagonAX]

OK, so the OP agrees that they could use grenades and CC and focus fire as well.

 

And then he proceeds to say the whole system is broken.

 

How exactly is it broken if any player/team has access to the same mechanics? If you don't like the mechanics go back to WoW, or L2P SWToR.

[Sweeet]

OK, so the OP agrees that they could use grenades and CC and focus fire as well.

 

And then he proceeds to say the whole system is broken.

 

How exactly is it broken if any player/team has access to the same mechanics? If you don't like the mechanics go back to WoW, or L2P SWToR.

 

Yes because it a clearly a just L2P issue when only a handful of people actually want to learn how to do it... It has nothing to do with people thinking that the current PvP mechanics are simply bad/broken...

[Fayme]

PvP has degraded into a DPS/CC arms race. Tactics involve locking a player out of combat for as long as possible and bursting people down in seconds. Seconds... Which is the real problem here, time. People spend too long sitting in CC's doing nothing and they die too quickly. It's an incredibly bad combination in a competitive PvP environment that is only fun for the team that manages to lock the other down first.

 

Why do you think so many people dislike PvP in it's current state? It's not through lack of skill that's for sure, many top players I've spoken to believe PvP is in a bad place right now.

 

I totally agree with you and it makes me mad that instead of fixing resolve, the devs to the opposite and make it worse. So they nerf the "teams of stunlocking operatives" to death only to then create "teams of stunlocking [insert any class here]"

 

Here's my challenge to the pvp development team....play pvp in your game!

[ParagonAX]

Only a handful of people want to learn it because it takes EFFORT. Effort to talk to the team and coordinate, instead of just participating in a free-for-all zergfest, which is 99% of non-ranked WZs.

[ParagonAX]

"I am stunlocked all the time, yet I / my team can never stun anyone else."

 

- #1 paradox of SWToR forums

[Helig]

"I am stunlocked all the time, yet I / my team can never stun anyone else."

 

- #1 paradox of SWToR forums

 

Negative experiences are more memorable than positive ones - at least with certain mindsets.

[Siorac]

"I am stunlocked all the time, yet I / my team can never stun anyone else."

 

- #1 paradox of SWToR forums

 

The fact that I can stab someone in the balls doesn't make the prospect of they doing the same to me any more appealing.

[Sweeet]

Only a handful of people want to learn it because it takes EFFORT. Effort to talk to the team and coordinate, instead of just participating in a free-for-all zergfest, which is 99% of non-ranked WZs.

 

That's clearly what you choose to believe, even if it is a very one-dimensional way of looking at the current situation. If you feel the current state of PvP is a rewarding experience, all the more power to you. It's a pity the general consensus appears to be the opposite.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Sweeet

[ParagonAX]

General consensus? Why don't you do a tally of the posters in this topic and see how many were in your favour?

[Giberelina]

What I don't understand,from a design point of view,is why make gear so much of a factor in pvp.

 

What's wrong with making the gear basically equal,and let the best team win?

 

Yes, I'd like to understand this too.

[Sweeet]

General consensus? Why don't you do a tally of the posters in this topic and see how many were in your favour?

 

Why don't you read through the hundreds of pages in these very forums all complaining about the low TTK, stun-locking and general CC fest PvP has become?

[SlimsPicken]

The bottom line is....if it was FUN to sit unable to move or act for half a WZ, you simply wouldnt see all these threads daily.

 

But its not.

 

So they need to change some things.

[Nidza]

does your group use focus assist?If not you have no business in a rwz and should stick to normals

[TonyDragonflame]

All what we need - its PUG vs. PUG only WZ. And yes, we need fun deathmatch warzone. It is one major thing, which need all players in game. If you have only 20-30-60 minutes to play and wanna have some fast fun in pvp and dont have any teamspeak or unguilded - its only one way.

 

Yes, there can be else any team vs team, premade vs. premade warzones, with voice communications, etc etc, but who cares about these guild wars? Nobody cares except have-plenty-free-time-schoololo.

Edited November 1, 2012 by TonyDragonflame

[anwg]

 

And for the record this isn't a QQ post, this is a where did it all go wrong post? So very very wrong...

 

To be honest it seems exactly like a QQ post. I bet the other guild didn't start out like gods of PvP either, they took the time to work on their coordination, strategy, communication and gear.

[Sweeet]

To be honest it seems exactly like a QQ post. I bet the other guild didn't start out like gods of PvP either, they took the time to work on their coordination, strategy, communication and gear.

 

I have no doubt it will seem like a QQ post to some people, hence why I had to iterate. I'm trying to highlight serious issues with PvP that are holding the game back. We all want to SWTOR to be successful, yet ignoring glaring issues claiming they are just L2P issues, like if everyone just L2P it would all be fine, is not helping the situation as clearly people are not learning to play the way the game is currently intending.

 

And there's a very good reason for that, it's because PvP by design is awful at present. People either don't want to learn how to play because they don't enjoy the way the game is trying to make them play, or they can't learn how to play because the game, by design, is making it too prohibitive for them to learn how to play. It takes months to get full BiS WH in a very inhospitable environment. Many people have found it too inhospitable already which is why numbers have been dwindling for months on end.

 

I genuinely fear for the future of this game as PvP in it's current state will put off potential FTP customers once they have gone up against a few BiS WH pre-mades, I am 100% certain of that.

[anstalt]

Ultimately, this all comes down to fun.

 

When you have a very short TTK, the fun becomes completely one-sided. The person doing the killing has loads of fun, the person dying has no fun at all.

 

With a longer TTK, the fun becomes more even. The result should be exactly the same because after all, the better player will win no matter what! Whether it be because they know their class better, use their cooldowns better, have better gear, whatever, it really doesn't matter why they win.

 

However, if the person who is going to lose has some fun in the process then it means they will keep coming back. If they keep coming back, everybody wins.

 

 

So, whilst all you people out there are saying L2P, stop QQing etc, please realise that the OP understands this, he's not asking for nerfs, he's not saying ban grenades and he acknowledges that he himself and his team could be a lot better.

 

What the OP is asking for is a change of direction in the pvp design to balance out the fun being had. By increasing TTK or reducing CC or by some other method, it would be great if the losers at least had the illusion of having a chance. The better players will always win, thats a fact, but the current system means that the losers can often just get stomped sooo hard that it sucks all the fun out of it.

 

Less fun = less player retention = less pvp for everyone.

[Fayme]

Ultimately, this all comes down to fun.

 

When you have a very short TTK, the fun becomes completely one-sided. The person doing the killing has loads of fun, the person dying has no fun at all.

 

With a longer TTK, the fun becomes more even. The result should be exactly the same because after all, the better player will win no matter what! Whether it be because they know their class better, use their cooldowns better, have better gear, whatever, it really doesn't matter why they win.

 

However, if the person who is going to lose has some fun in the process then it means they will keep coming back. If they keep coming back, everybody wins.

 

 

So, whilst all you people out there are saying L2P, stop QQing etc, please realise that the OP understands this, he's not asking for nerfs, he's not saying ban grenades and he acknowledges that he himself and his team could be a lot better.

 

What the OP is asking for is a change of direction in the pvp design to balance out the fun being had. By increasing TTK or reducing CC or by some other method, it would be great if the losers at least had the illusion of having a chance. The better players will always win, thats a fact, but the current system means that the losers can often just get stomped sooo hard that it sucks all the fun out of it.

 

Less fun = less player retention = less pvp for everyone.

 

^This!! You deserve a cookie!

[UGLYMRJ]

 

But really, the one of the biggest flaws with the implementation of RWZs was the lack of a matchmaking system. It's completely demoralizing for a new team to be destroyed by the best team over and over again.

 

It's too late now. Unless there is a huge influx of F2P players (yeah right), even cross server queues won't have enough teams to have meaningful brackets.

 

It sucks because he's right... Between his guild and another top guild on our server.... most guilds don't even want to queue against them. One of the guilds took a break and I saw all kinds of guilds I have never seen before in rated... they came back and now it's the same ol guilds. The lack of competitiveness is painful to watch. Very few guilds are willing to take the time to improve to challenge the biggest and baddest right now. I hear it's not much different on other servers.

 

And to the OP... it's really not the gear. I can say that for a fact. I've been in your shoes... we took a long break from rated because the guild somehow became PvE focused and recently just revamped the guild for rated again. Guess what... we can beat pretty much everyone out there. Most are competitive but these 2 guilds.... probably similar skill level to the guild you went up against. Beat us by team work... organization... coordination... NOT gear. Those other guilds that we CAN beat... are just as geared as these guys. The more we play as a team the better we're becoming as a team... we put up more competition as time goes and we play better as a team. The gear hasn't changed... the team work has.

 

So in short... don't blame the gear. These guilds could do the same thing in recruit gear. It's a coordinated effort and it should be something to strive for... not be demoralized by. Time and practice is all it takes. Pay attention to what these guilds are doing.. I guarantee your guild is not guard swapping, positioning themselves well, peeling or coordinating CC nor taunting, etc... anywhere near as coordinated as these guilds are. THAT is the difference... NOT gear.

Edited November 1, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[DarthOvertone]

Now all you people out there saying that a fully augmented BM player is comparable to a fully augmented WH player, are flat out lying or have no idea what they are talking about.

 

Fully Augmented BM gear is perfectly adequate for competitive play in NWZs. Nobody in this Forum has ever suggested that BM+Augment gear is good for RWZs because it is not. RWZs are another level of competition entirely and require Full WH+Augment at minimum.

 

 

But really, the one of the biggest flaws with the implementation of RWZs was the lack of a matchmaking system.

 

This is why RWZs were dead on arrival for the most part. No matchmaking system pretty much guaranteed the interest in RWZs would be short-lived.

 

In addition, XServer Queues are absolutely necessary, not only to increase the pool of teams for potential matchmaking but to also avoid queue dodging which was an avid activity for even the high ranked teams when RWZs were semi-popular.

 

 

There arent enough teams on servers for proper match-making. On our server, there are often only a handful of teams playing ranked.

 

Of course, without a matchmaking system and XServer queues, this is the end result. Had those two components been in place upon release, RWZs would be in a much healthier state. Just another opportunity missed.

[DarthSabreth]

 

But really, the one of the biggest flaws with the implementation of RWZs was the lack of a matchmaking system. It's completely demoralizing for a new team to be destroyed by the best team over and over again.

 

It's too late now. Unless there is a huge influx of F2P players (yeah right), even cross server queues won't have enough teams to have meaningful brackets.

 

they cant do any match making what so ever in either ranked or non ranked because BW flat out refuses to have cross server queing for wz's. if they had that then they could tweek the match making. last night my whole team me excluded being i am an op were all sorc. needles to say we lost hard. the other team had a combo of maras and PT's. if there was cross server queing then there would be more of a mix. most major MMO'S have cross server queing for wz's. mabie it is imposible to do that being this game was started like 7 years ago?

[UGLYMRJ]

Ultimately, this all comes down to fun.

 

When you have a very short TTK, the fun becomes completely one-sided. The person doing the killing has loads of fun, the person dying has no fun at all.

 

With a longer TTK, the fun becomes more even. The result should be exactly the same because after all, the better player will win no matter what! Whether it be because they know their class better, use their cooldowns better, have better gear, whatever, it really doesn't matter why they win.

 

However, if the person who is going to lose has some fun in the process then it means they will keep coming back. If they keep coming back, everybody wins.

 

 

So, whilst all you people out there are saying L2P, stop QQing etc, please realise that the OP understands this, he's not asking for nerfs, he's not saying ban grenades and he acknowledges that he himself and his team could be a lot better.

 

What the OP is asking for is a change of direction in the pvp design to balance out the fun being had. By increasing TTK or reducing CC or by some other method, it would be great if the losers at least had the illusion of having a chance. The better players will always win, thats a fact, but the current system means that the losers can often just get stomped sooo hard that it sucks all the fun out of it.

 

Less fun = less player retention = less pvp for everyone.

 

The problem with this is objectives. If you reduce CC or increase TTK by much you potentially have to increase spawn timers or make some other change in order to compensate. If people live longer and are CC'd less.... it drastically decreases the chances of having those free seconds to plant a bomb or cap a node.

 

While I would love to see TTK increased slightly and CC decreased slightly... even the slightest change can drastically affect the game and break objective based PvP. Not saying it's impossible... but even a small change can make a huge difference.

 

Even now most rated matches become an eternal fight for the last node. each team caps one and very often the last node goes damn near all game without being capped. With 2 equally skilled teams... capturing objectives can already be a challenge and either change could make that worse. Civil wars are already decided by whoever caps a node first way too often in rated. Basically... predation + force sprint wins (With an intercept of course). Any changes to TTK or CC could make it even worse and I hardly see that as a competitive way to decide a winner.

[L-RANDLE]

Oh NOz, gear isnt the end-all be-all, even in rated..... Damn.....

 

 

<------Feeling vindicated for all the flames I took saying this for the last 8 months....

Edited November 1, 2012 by L-RANDLE