Legacy Wide datacrons

[MajikMyst]

Just wanted to comment on this...

 

An unlockable Legacy Perk does not "force" anything on you. Just as you are saying to everyone else about if they don't want to have to go through the trouble of getting a Datacron multiple times "then don't"... if you don't want to only have to hit it once and then see it affect all of your chars, "then don't" buy the perk.

 

See.. And that is the lie of the entire argument.. If they made a switchable god mode.. Would you still claim that it doesn't effect you?? Are you seriously going to tell me that you wouldn't use it?? Like it or not, if legacy datacrons were added, people would use it and thus effect their game play.. That does not work in your favor.. It is exactly why it should never be added.. So yes, it would effect people's game play..

 

There is no reason to add this.. Seriously.. There is no reason.. It in no way makes the game as a whole better.. It will not have a positive impact on the game.. The game is already to easy as it is.. Anything that is attempting to make it easier is just wrong and bad..

 

It is seriously bad enough that you don't have to do the achievements on each character, or collect reputation on each character.. I think people can handle getting the datacrons on each character.. \

 

So please.. Don't be lazy and don't demand a perk because you are lazy.. If you don't want to get the datacrons, then don't.. But please don't sit here and QQ about wanting to get them for free and claiming it won't effect the game.. Seriously.. That argument is so lame..

[FuryoftheStars]

See.. And that is the lie of the entire argument.. If they made a switchable god mode.. Would you still claim that it doesn't effect you?? Are you seriously going to tell me that you wouldn't use it?? Like it or not, if legacy datacrons were added, people would use it and thus effect their game play.. That does not work in your favor.. It is exactly why it should never be added.. So yes, it would effect people's game play..

 

There is no reason to add this.. Seriously.. There is no reason.. It in no way makes the game as a whole better.. It will not have a positive impact on the game.. The game is already to easy as it is.. Anything that is attempting to make it easier is just wrong and bad..

 

It is seriously bad enough that you don't have to do the achievements on each character, or collect reputation on each character.. I think people can handle getting the datacrons on each character.. \

 

So please.. Don't be lazy and don't demand a perk because you are lazy.. If you don't want to get the datacrons, then don't.. But please don't sit here and QQ about wanting to get them for free and claiming it won't effect the game.. Seriously.. That argument is so lame..

 

Uh, if you had read my previous post, you'd see I'm not QQ'ing about anything. So off the horse.

 

Further, allowing Legacy Datacrons is nothing like a switchable God mode. What's the cumulative stat bonus (pre-Expansion)? +30? Doesn't even really give you that much of an edge. Further, it's easy enough to assign levels to each Datacron, hence your alts don't get the bonus until they reach a certain level, thereby further limiting any "edge" you get. Finally, it's easy enough to make the unlock require high Legacy level, such as LL50, making it so new players can't just go out and get it.

 

The whole point behind requesting the Legacy unlock is so that those people who aren't as good at the random maneuvering that's required to get some of these can still get the benefit as everyone else. And really, some of them are not as easy to get to as you seem to think they are.

[DarthVengeant]

Yes it is.. That is what you don't understand..

 

How in heck does it effect YOUR game if someone else uses the Legacy Perk for the Datacrons they got on their name and you do not? Please explain this.

[FuryoftheStars]

How in heck does it effect YOUR game if someone else uses the Legacy Perk for the Datacrons they got on their name and you do not? Please explain this.

 

In his mind, this is why:

 

If they made a switchable god mode.. Would you still claim that it doesn't effect you??

[DarthVengeant]

Dude?? You are still waiting for the balloon?? I have those two datacrons on all my characters and never used the balloon.. You really should google some times.. Seriously..

 

I mentioned the Balloon as an example of the time, frustration, or flat out boredom some of these datacrons take to get. I actually had a guild event with my guild to get that one on all our alts one night having our Sorcs and such pull people up.

 

But, your just being an *** to everyone and condescending anyway. You have zero empathy and act like only YOUR way of playing is right, then would rather insult people than be civil. People like you are what ruins the enjoyment of gaming.

 

The bottom line is, me having a Legacy Perk to unlock datacrons I obtained previously has nothing to do with YOU or YOUR game. Period. To think it does just shows your narrow vision and ego getting in the way of understanding.

Edited April 11, 2013 by DarthVengeant

[Vonim]

This was suggested a while back, but I really like the idea of Legacy wide datacrons.

 

It could work 1 of 2 ways:

A) Cartel Shop sells the ability to make datacrons legacy wide (500 CC, 1000 CC whatever)

B) Legacy Perk

 

Example: If you were a level 16 Republic and had gotten all the Ord Mantel, Tython and Coruscant datacrons on other characters, you would gain access to the datacron codex entries and stat benefit as soon as you reached the max level of the planet. So hitting 50 would give you all the Illum ones, 49 all the Corellia ones and so on and so forth.

 

Obviously faction specific datacrons would have to be taken into consideration as otherwise someone could have more than the correct amount of datacrons.

 

I really think this would be a huge benefit as I have gotten 60 datacrons on my main and am working on getting the remaining 7, and really really really really don't want to do this for a 2nd character, and third character and so on.

 

Please take this into consideration,

yours truly,

AshlaBoga

 

P.S: My fellow forum goers, please keep this bumped so BW can see how interested we are in this feature.

 

/agree I have 4 50 level toons ... I'm not lazy I'm just not into time sinks or cred sinks for that matter ...

[MajikMyst]

/agree I have 4 50 level toons ... I'm not lazy I'm just not into time sinks or cred sinks for that matter ...

 

Then why are you playing an MMO?? Time sinks and credit sinks are all MMO's are..

[MajikMyst]

The whole point behind requesting the Legacy unlock is so that those people who aren't as good at the random maneuvering that's required to get some of these can still get the benefit as everyone else. And really, some of them are not as easy to get to as you seem to think they are.

 

Let me paraphrase this..

 

The point behind asking for the legacy unlock is so that people who are lazy or aren't as skill full at the random maneuvering that is required to get some of these can still get the benefit as everyone else.. Essentially allowing people to get something for nothing and without the effort that others made.. Really, it is impossible for anyone to know how hard these are because I alone have taken the time to get them all and I alone is the only qualified authority to make that call..

 

Seriously dude.. That is what your post says.. I have got all the datacrons for the codex's on all 4 of my lvl 50's characters and helped my wife get them on all 3 of her lvl 50's.. I know how easy they are.. Yes there are some that require some skill and some that even require a group effort.. None that are overly hard.. You should try doing them during the Beta, when there was no information on the internet.. I had to figure out how to get many of them without the help of an outside reference.. The one inside the Taris Pipe took me darn near 2 or 3 hours to figure out.. Fighting mobs the entire time.. So please.. Nobody has it hard right now.. This is all easy mode.. Nothing but easy mode and countless websites to walk you through.. Sadly, now people want legacy because they can't even handle that.. How easy must this game become?? Should it play itself?? Should we have legacy leveling too?? A switchable god mode?? Maybe a handicapped system for all those unskilled players you speak of?? How about an Ewok difficulty mode for all the Ops?? Look I am being sarcastic here.. But you all should read your own posts..

Edited April 11, 2013 by MajikMyst

[FuryoftheStars]

But you all should read your own posts..

 

The Kettle calling the Pot Black.

[MajikMyst]

The Kettle calling the Pot Black.

 

You wish.. But here is your slippery slope!!

 

Legacy double XP??

 

The people that want everything to be legacy might want to consider why they are playing an MMO.. Because it seems they don't actually want to play it.. They just want it all to be legacy so they don't have to...

 

There is nothing about my posts that is the kettle calling the pot black.. I want to play this game and maintain some level of difficulty.. Other people do not.. That is not calling the kettle black.. So please.. If you are going to make a point then please make one.. Remember.. 'Do or do not.. There is no try..'

[FuryoftheStars]

I want to play this game and maintain some level of difficulty.. Other people do not.. That is not calling the kettle black.. So please.. If you are going to make a point then please make one.. Remember.. 'Do or do not.. There is no try..'

 

Point: Having a Legacy Unlock at LL50 for Datacrons to be shared Legacy wide cannot be done with a new account. It requires someone who has already played the game a lot. Thus having already put in a lot of time and effort.

 

Point: It in no way affects your actual game play beyond the mental (ie, it's in your head). There is no change in the way you have to play in order to compensate. It does not make your game any easier or harder because it is your choice if you want to unlock it.

 

Point: This same concept applies to the Legacy Double XP.

 

Point: The kettle calling the pot black was in reference to your comment on how we should reread our posts.

 

Point: Do not try to liken yourself to Yoda, because Yoda you are not.

[MajikMyst]

Point: Having a Legacy Unlock at LL50 for Datacrons to be shared Legacy wide cannot be done with a new account. It requires someone who has already played the game a lot. Thus having already put in a lot of time and effort.

 

Point: It in no way affects your actual game play beyond the mental (ie, it's in your head). There is no change in the way you have to play in order to compensate. It does not make your game any easier or harder because it is your choice if you want to unlock it.

 

Point: This same concept applies to the Legacy Double XP.

 

Point: The kettle calling the pot black was in reference to your comment on how we should reread our posts.

 

Point: Do not try to liken yourself to Yoda, because Yoda you are not.

 

Seriously dude?? You expect anyone to believe a word of that??

 

It doesn't take a long time to level a character to 50, and only an hour or two to collect all the datacrons using a website walk through.. So your first point is simply false..

 

The game concept doesn't apply to the double XP at all.. Double XP was a publicity perk for the run up to the release of the expansion.. There is no legacy double XP.. That is just your imagination running amok.. Again your point is false..

 

I know what calling the kettle black means.. The difference is, my posts are based on coherent thought and factual information.. You appear to be just making yours up as you go along.. You still have failed to provide any logically based reason as to how Legacy XP or datacrons would improve the game for all.. Because you have to know that Bioware isn't going to add such things without that reason.. Logically speaking, the lack of desire to collect the datacrons on all your characters, or the desire to have legacy double XP is simply laziness.. That is all.. There is no other answer..

 

I didn't liken myself to Yoda.. I quoted him.. And you wonder why I say that you need to reread your own posts?? Nothing you said was accurate.. You didn't even know what a simple quote was.. I'll bet your gonna say that I didn't credit it as a quote.. Your right.. We are in a Star Wars game forum.. If someone doesn't know a quote from Yoda, they do not belong here.. You obviously knew.. So no need to credit the quote..

 

You don't even see how the double XP thread totally destroys any argument for datacrons.. Like I said it is a slippery slope.. When does it end?? When are people going to stop QQ for legacy because they are to lazy to actually play an MMO.. Fine if you don't want to play an MMO, go play another game.. But don't sit here and argue to ruin this game for everyone else.. Seriously..

Edited April 12, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Mowermanx]

You don't even see how the double XP thread totally destroys any argument for datacrons.. Like I said it is a slippery slope.. When does it end?? When are people going to stop QQ for legacy because they are to lazy to actually play an MMO.. Fine if you don't want to play an MMO, go play another game.. But don't sit here and argue to ruin this game for everyone else.. Seriously..

 

Exactly, where do these people come from?

[AsheraII]

Point: Having a Legacy Unlock at LL50 for Datacrons to be shared Legacy wide cannot be done with a new account. It requires someone who has already played the game a lot. Thus having already put in a lot of time and effort.

 

Point: It in no way affects your actual game play beyond the mental (ie, it's in your head). There is no change in the way you have to play in order to compensate. It does not make your game any easier or harder because it is your choice if you want to unlock it.

 

Point: This same concept applies to the Legacy Double XP.

 

Point: The kettle calling the pot black was in reference to your comment on how we should reread our posts.

 

Point: Do not try to liken yourself to Yoda, because Yoda you are not.

Point: My Shadow Tank cleared all raiding content. I have already invested all the time and effort. Now when my Gunslinger dinged levelcap, the gunslinger should've gotten all the gear from the operations content for free, since I, as a player, already invested all the time and effort required. I don't like operations, but it was the only content available to further progress my Shadow, so I had no other option. Maybe as a Legacy unlock for 500 Cartel Coins or something?

 

Now, that is rediculous, right? Well, Legacy wide Datacrons are the exact same thing: YOU may not like the content, but OTHERS DO. As much as you would not want the content from operations trivialized by giving alts all the gear for free, those others do not want their preferred content type trivialized either. It doesn't affect you one bit if my Gunslinger gets BiS gear for free, you can still get it on your own alts the normal way if you prefer that, right? Just the effort may feel a bit more hollow. Just as the effort of my gunslinger getting the same datacron my Shadow already had would feel more hollow if it had been obtainable through a simple legacy unlock.

 

And "time and effort" to aquire datacrons? It's easier and less time consuming to get ALL datacrons in game than it is to get one specific item from an end-game operation. The proces of gearing up, wiping, attempting, learning, not dropping and losing rolls will take WEEKS. By comparison, you can grab every single datacron in game within about 7 hours, though I'm sure some people can ace it in only 4 hours.

Edited April 12, 2013 by AsheraII

[zzoorrzz]

I disagree with datacrons being legacy. It's a reward for those willing to put some effort into it. I see no reason why people enjoying playing more characters should be rewarded more for the same amount of effort as those who play only 1 or 2 characters. Remember that you don't have to get all dataqcron for every of your character. If u don't feel like getting them all, you can go just for you primary stats.

[MastaKorgy]

I disagree with datacrons being legacy. It's a reward for those willing to put some effort into it. I see no reason why people enjoying playing more characters should be rewarded more for the same amount of effort as those who play only 1 or 2 characters. Remember that you don't have to get all dataqcron for every of your character. If u don't feel like getting them all, you can go just for you primary stats.

 

not really.

[DragonFlyM]

Totally Agree on this one, most of the Datacrons are a royal pain in the ***

[TweeBo]

I agree. I have a problem with much of the jumping work so for me it's very difficult to get all the datacrons and to get them on all my chars is a real pain in the *** so an option to buy it so it's legacy bound would be very welcome. Edited April 12, 2013 by TweeBo

[FuryoftheStars]

It doesn't take a long time to level a character to 50, and only an hour or two to collect all the datacrons using a website walk through.. So your first point is simply false..

I didn't say a character to level 50, I said LL50... as in Legacy Level 50. This requires more than just one (or even a couple) characters at 50 and takes a good amount of time. When was the last you had to worry about this, Mr-Been-Around-Since-Beta? My four characters are at levels 31 (almost 32, actually), 24, 21, and a hair off from 14 (respective order in sig). You know what my LL is? 4. I'm actually only half way to 5. And I've been playing for roughly a month. Huh... guess it's gonna be a while.

 

And while it may take you "an hour or two" to collect all of the datacrons, it took me 2 days (4 hours each) to collect all of the datacrons of Nar Shadda and lower... on one character. Not everyone is that great.

 

The game concept doesn't apply to the double XP at all.. Double XP was a publicity perk for the run up to the release of the expansion.. There is no legacy double XP.. That is just your imagination running amok.. Again your point is false..

You're the one who linked to the Legacy Double XP request thread and was upset about it. My point is that a Legacy Unlock of Double XP follows the same exact principles as a Legacy Unlock of Datacrons. And this point is true, whether you agree with it being in game or not.

 

I know what calling the kettle black means.. The difference is, my posts are based on coherent thought and factual information.. You appear to be just making yours up as you go along.. You still have failed to provide any logically based reason as to how Legacy XP or datacrons would improve the game for all.. Because you have to know that Bioware isn't going to add such things without that reason.. Logically speaking, the lack of desire to collect the datacrons on all your characters, or the desire to have legacy double XP is simply laziness.. That is all.. There is no other answer..

What factual information have you given? The opinion that it is lazy behavior, despite having to grind multiple 50s before it becomes an option? The opinion that it in some way or another damages your game play, despite the fact that it actually in no way changes how you have to play your characters? You are yet to provide actual proof in how it hurts your game. The burden of proof is not on us with this... it's on you, because you are the one claiming it will damage something. And comparing it to "extremes" such as a switchable God mode is not an answer. They're not the same. God mode is game changing... datacron bonus' are insignificant.

 

The difference with the Legacy Unlocks is that it's a player's choice to use. If they feel as though it'll improve their game play, they can get it. If they don't, then they can leave it. I have provided plenty of info on how it will improve the game for those of us that want it, you're just choosing to ignore it or claim it is invalid.

 

I didn't liken myself to Yoda.. I quoted him.. And you wonder why I say that you need to reread your own posts?? Nothing you said was accurate.. You didn't even know what a simple quote was.. I'll bet your gonna say that I didn't credit it as a quote.. Your right.. We are in a Star Wars game forum.. If someone doesn't know a quote from Yoda, they do not belong here.. You obviously knew.. So no need to credit the quote..

What? I could give a rats buttock about crediting the quote... where the heck did that come from? But by your putting it into your post the way you did, it does give the appearance of trying to take on the sort of "mentor" role with me that Yoda had with Luke... hence, you are liking yourself to Yoda. So I'm not the one that needs to do the rereading.

 

You don't even see how the double XP thread totally destroys any argument for datacrons.. Like I said it is a slippery slope.. When does it end?? When are people going to stop QQ for legacy because they are to lazy to actually play an MMO.. Fine if you don't want to play an MMO, go play another game.. But don't sit here and argue to ruin this game for everyone else.. Seriously..

 

Again, how does the option of an unlock that makes game play a little less tedious for those players that want it hurting your ability to play the game?

Edited April 12, 2013 by FuryoftheStars

[FuryoftheStars]

Point: My Shadow Tank cleared all raiding content. I have already invested all the time and effort. Now when my Gunslinger dinged levelcap, the gunslinger should've gotten all the gear from the operations content for free, since I, as a player, already invested all the time and effort required. I don't like operations, but it was the only content available to further progress my Shadow, so I had no other option. Maybe as a Legacy unlock for 500 Cartel Coins or something?

 

Now, that is rediculous, right? Well, Legacy wide Datacrons are the exact same thing: YOU may not like the content, but OTHERS DO. As much as you would not want the content from operations trivialized by giving alts all the gear for free, those others do not want their preferred content type trivialized either. It doesn't affect you one bit if my Gunslinger gets BiS gear for free, you can still get it on your own alts the normal way if you prefer that, right? Just the effort may feel a bit more hollow. Just as the effort of my gunslinger getting the same datacron my Shadow already had would feel more hollow if it had been obtainable through a simple legacy unlock.

 

And "time and effort" to aquire datacrons? It's easier and less time consuming to get ALL datacrons in game than it is to get one specific item from an end-game operation. The proces of gearing up, wiping, attempting, learning, not dropping and losing rolls will take WEEKS. By comparison, you can grab every single datacron in game within about 7 hours, though I'm sure some people can ace it in only 4 hours.

 

Yes, that is ridiculous. Why? Because that gear has a significant impact on your character. The datacrons do not. As such, no, they are not the same.

 

And my "time and effort" comment was on reaching LL50. Otherwise, yes, you are right that it takes a lot more time to acquire the gear than the datacrons.

 

Which actually reminds me of another point where your argument is false... they are different. Gear (or the ability to buy it) is locked behind instances that require large groups of at least semi-decent players to reach. Datacrons are not.

 

Further more, again, it's an LL50 option to get. If you like having to manually collect each datacron on all your toons, then simply don't purchase it.

Edited April 12, 2013 by FuryoftheStars

[AsheraII]

Yes, that is ridiculous. Why? Because that gear has a significant impact on your character. The datacrons do not. As such, no, they are not the same.

So, you can do without the datacrons, there is no need for them, you can merrily ignore them and play the game as you like. Proving the point that there is no need for a legacywide unlock either. The impact (or lack thereof) of collecting datacrons is NO excuse for turning them into a Legacy option. They are UNRELATED.

 

Which actually reminds me of another point where your argument is false... they are different. Gear (or the ability to buy it) is locked behind instances that require large groups of at least semi-decent players to reach. Datacrons are not.

And how exactly does that matter? It does not. You might as well tell us that because grass is green and the sky is blue, datacrons should be legacy perk for me and you. It's a completely useless fact, unrelated to whether datacrons should be a legacy perk or not. As are ALL your points, by the way. Different content is different. Differences between two content types are no reason to turn either one into a Legacy perk.

 

Further more, again, it's an LL50 option to get. If you like having to manually collect each datacron on all your toons, then simply don't purchase it.

Same would ofcourse apply to Operation gear for alts. If you like collecting each piece on all your toons, then simply don't purchase it.

 

Datacron collecting may not be a content type you enjoy, but it is a seperate content type on its own, just like running operations is a content type on its own. Just like warzones, ranked or not, are their own content type. Crafting? Seperate content type. Companion affection? Seperate content type. Trading? Seperate content type. Space combat? Different content type. Don't like some content type? Then simply don't do it. That's the nice thing of MMO's. They generally offer multiple content types, to attract a broader audience. Warzones are a seperate content type. If you don't like them, and only run operations or hard modes, that still doesn't give you free warzone gear, not even if you aquired a full set of the top WZ gear on a character that you do like to play warzones with.

 

By the way, good luck getting the fleetcrons without a group and without entering any instance.

Not that the fleetcrons are the only ones for which you need multiple players to aquire them.

[FuryoftheStars]

So, you can do without the datacrons, there is no need for them, you can merrily ignore them and play the game as you like. Proving the point that there is no need for a legacywide unlock either. The impact (or lack thereof) of collecting datacrons is NO excuse for turning them into a Legacy option. They are UNRELATED.

 

 

And how exactly does that matter? It does not. You might as well tell us that because grass is green and the sky is blue, datacrons should be legacy perk for me and you. It's a completely useless fact, unrelated to whether datacrons should be a legacy perk or not. As are ALL your points, by the way. Different content is different. Differences between two content types are no reason to turn either one into a Legacy perk.

 

 

Same would ofcourse apply to Operation gear for alts. If you like collecting each piece on all your toons, then simply don't purchase it.

 

Datacron collecting may not be a content type you enjoy, but it is a seperate content type on its own, just like running operations is a content type on its own. Just like warzones, ranked or not, are their own content type. Crafting? Seperate content type. Companion affection? Seperate content type. Trading? Seperate content type. Space combat? Different content type. Don't like some content type? Then simply don't do it. That's the nice thing of MMO's. They generally offer multiple content types, to attract a broader audience. Warzones are a seperate content type. If you don't like them, and only run operations or hard modes, that still doesn't give you free warzone gear, not even if you aquired a full set of the top WZ gear on a character that you do like to play warzones with.

 

By the way, good luck getting the fleetcrons without a group and without entering any instance.

Not that the fleetcrons are the only ones for which you need multiple players to aquire them.

 

Yup, I could do without it. I'm not QQ'ing that I need them... reread my first post. My issue is with the comments that it is Lazy behavior (despite it requiring LL50 which does not indicate laziness in my eyes) and the fact that it some how hurts or forces everyone else to play differently, as indicated where I first started joining the actual argument.

 

And fleetcrons are different. If they're putting them behind group instances, then well, duh.

[MajikMyst]

Yup, I could do without it. I'm not QQ'ing that I need them... reread my first post. My issue is with the comments that it is Lazy behavior (despite it requiring LL50 which does not indicate laziness in my eyes) and the fact that it some how hurts or forces everyone else to play differently, as indicated where I first started joining the actual argument.

 

And fleetcrons are different. If they're putting them behind group instances, then well, duh.

 

But see that is the point you are missing.. Just because someone is lvl 50, doesn't mean they can't be lazy.. The entire issue here is whether or not to make it so that if you get the datacrons once, you never have to get them again.. The basic request for that is simple laziness.. The entire 'OMG!! That datacron is a pain in the !@$#!! They should make that legacy so I don't have to do it again..' That is lazy..

 

The problem is, the logic that pro lazy people are using, can be used for anything.. Like leveling.. Grinding out gear.. PVP or PVE?? Should Valor be legacy?? It is bad enough that Rep is legacy.. To me, that should also be a per character thing.. But OMG you can just see the people complaining about that.. I mean.. The nerve.. Bioware actually making someone play the game.. How much of the game content should just be destroyed by folks that are just to lazy to play it and therefore demand legacy?? This is an MMO.. It is a long game.. It isn't meant to be done in just a few hours.. This isn't Call of Duty.. This isn't Crysis.. Yet people just want to sit and moan and groan about how long or now hard something is.. Welcome to an MMO.. That is how they are supposed to be.. Long and hard.. If you don't want that then go play something else.. Making everything legacy isn't the answer.. Ruining the game isn't the answer..

Edited April 12, 2013 by MajikMyst

[FuryoftheStars]

But see that is the point you are missing.. Just because someone is lvl 50, doesn't mean they can't be lazy..

 

And I think this is where our views diverge. Again (just to be sure we are on the same page), I am talking Legacy level 50. (Heck, they should probably increase this level cap to 55 as well, and maybe stick the unlock there.)

 

IMO, if they've been playing this game hard and long enough to reach Legacy level 50, then they should be able to slack in a few of the non-critical, insignificant game play changing areas. The areas that do not actually impact another player's ability to play the game the way they want (which is a point I think you're missing).

[atesz]

I agree 100%.