So Bioware is not backing down from the "Grab Bags"

[CelCawdro]

This have been said by someone else, either in this thread of one of the others.... for all practical purposes "gambling" in the legal sense (ie: legal enforcement) is generally enforced in two contexts by goverment: 1) to prevent harm to the public (and harm has to be proven, not just alleged) 2) to capture revenue from the enterprise, which is the more common reason for governments to apply statute and enforcement on anything in commerce, be it buying, selling, gambling, whatever. Grab bags as virutal items inside a virtual world do not meet either test in any material sense. Sure, people can apply broad meaning to the term "gambling" to press a bias, a preference, or a moral standard, but unless 1 or 2 above is material.... there is no gambling. There is however a game of chance... which is what grab bags are.

 

Which makes this entire discussion moot because the entire game is nothing but gambling in the broadest literary sense of the term (a chance for loot drops, a chance of finding a group quickly, a chance of winning that warzones, etc.), thus pointing out that one small facet of it is as well is totally inconsequential.

[DarkSaberMaster]

Quoted for emphasis. He's just opposed to this and will not be swayed to consider the real life implications here.

 

Right now the price of credits seems extremely high checking those sites. If I'm going to spend $80 or more to get 1 million credits it would be smarter to put that into the boxes themselves.

 

Two things could happen. I get the item that I'm looking for or I get other items that I can sell to buy the items I'm looking for.

 

This has to be your first MMO if you have that kind of thinking. There is a reason why gold farmers exist in the first place. And the guy you are going back and forth with is correct. The price of the rare items will be ridiculously high. Especially for things like the Mask of Nihilus. It may not be up there in the 850 mil bracket. But it will be extremely high. And people will pay the gold farmer for the money because it is a guaranteed sale over forking an unknown amount of money over to the RMG (Random Money Ganker) for and uncertain chance for that specific item.

 

I'm not against the loot bags. It is the most lucrative and profitable thing that will be going for this game. But don't sit here with your head in the sand and think for one second that the price of these rare items will be anywhere in the range of what the average TOR player can afford or that somebody won't go to the gold farmer to obtain that item. The past 15 or so years of MMO history says otherwise.

[Tim-ONeil]

This has to be your first MMO if you have that kind of thinking. There is a reason why gold farmers exist in the first place. And the guy you are going back and forth with is correct. The price of the rare items will be ridiculously high. Especially for things like the Mask of Nihilus. It may not be up there in the 850 mil bracket. But it will be extremely high. And people will pay the gold farmer for the money because it is a guaranteed sale over forking an unknown amount of money over to the RMG (Random Money Ganker) for and uncertain chance for that specific item.

 

I'm not against the loot bags. It is the most lucrative and profitable thing that will be going for this game. But don't sit here with your head in the sand and think for one second that the price of these rare items will be anywhere in the range of what the average TOR player can afford or that somebody won't go to the gold farmer to obtain that item. The past 15 or so years of MMO history says otherwise.

 

It's not but if that is supposed to be dismissive of my post it failed.

 

Your argument is one of entitlement and how difficult it should be to obtain the rare items. The means to acquire said item are available to you. You can pay credits for them subject to the player market. This is a market driven economy.

 

If you choose to buy $1600 dollars (at the current Real life money to credits ratio) worth of credits via gold farmers to purchase an item that is listed for 20 million on the GTN you can do that as well. It wouldn't be the smart thing to do but it's available to you. If the person has already decided that they are going to pay real life money for something like this then Bioware gave them an incentive to spend it with them to get what they ultimately want. The gold farming argument is moot since the system rewards people buying boxes much more so than buying credits.

 

However if you've played since launch that might be a reasonable price to you. If you are a new player doing all of the dailies will net you ~300k daily. It might not be engaging content for you but you are grinding for a goal.

 

Additionally gold farming is pretty much non existent in this game and the prices they charge for large sums of credits prove this. There are enough sinks in place now that the currency hasn't be devalued to the point that gold sellers can make an extreme profit.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Tim-ONeil

[Andryah]

Which makes this entire discussion moot because the entire game is nothing but gambling in the broadest literary sense of the term (a chance for loot drops, a chance of finding a group quickly, a chance of winning that warzones, etc.), thus pointing out that one small facet of it is as well is totally inconsequential.

 

Yep yep.

[Andryah]

Additionally gold farming is pretty much non existent in this game and the prices they charge for large sums of credits prove this. There are enough sinks in place now that the currency hasn't be devalued to the point that gold sellers can make an extreme profit.

 

I agree.

 

And a simple analysis of the pricing on PTS demonstrates that bioware's pricing in coins will undercut what limited RMT business for credits exists now in the context of any GTN market competition. It is waaaaaayyy more economical to buy coins from Bioware then to buy credits in the RMT market.. and also legal (whereas buying credits in the RMT market is a banable offense).

Edited October 24, 2012 by Andryah

[Wraiven]

I agree, however WoW has been using a similar strategy successfully for the last year, selling unique mounts on the website for $25 and unique pets for $10 - $15. It's made them millions, according to their shareholder's quarterlies. It would seem that very few innovtove ideas are rewarded and gaming companies are stuck in the rut of following WoW's model <sigh>

 

At least they know what they are buying. With the way Bioware has it currently set up, you have no idea what you are buying. This is my issue with it. This alone is why I will not spend one red cent. When I spend my hard earned real life money, I like to know what I am paying for.

[Chaqen]

It seems like people cant be pleased. They want the game to be successful, and want to have content to flow at a decent pace, but dont realize for that to happen EA/BW have to make more cash.

 

EA/BW have come up with a proven way to make cash, that isnt highly offensive and have been used for years by one of the biggest MMO publishers, SOE (based them as one of the biggest for having success with multiple games, on multiple platforms for close to 2 decades now); and the player base throws a fit, stating that BW/EA should choose a option that nets them less of a profit.

 

People also dont realize, that with the items from the "grab bags" being trade-able, you can sell what you get if you dont like it, and that there are good chances of what they want will be buy-able on the GTN after a period of time. If people act like responsible patient adults they will not have to spend droves of money to get what they want, let those impatient people with an large amount of disposable income buy the majority of the packs.

[CelCawdro]

At least they know what they are buying. With the way Bioware has it currently set up, you have no idea what you are buying. This is my issue with it. This alone is why I will not spend one red cent. When I spend my hard earned real life money, I like to know what I am paying for.

 

It's actually nicely detailed right on the item listing what you are buying.

[maxetius]

Especially for things like the Mask of Nihilus.

 

Only for the first month or so. I opened two cartel packs and got two masks. As with all MMOs, new shiny stuff is wackily priced for a while.

[Wraiven]

It's actually nicely detailed right on the item listing what you are buying.

 

Did you miss the point of this thread? Or are you just trying to be cute? Go roll your eyes somewhere else. You're not talking to a fool here.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Wraiven

[Andryah]

At least they know what they are buying. With the way Bioware has it currently set up, you have no idea what you are buying. This is my issue with it. This alone is why I will not spend one red cent. When I spend my hard earned real life money, I like to know what I am paying for.

 

Slightly off topic... but tell me how you feel about the prizes inside the box of Cracker Jacks.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Andryah

[Lunafox]

And how, as an adult with real-life worries, are you being forced into buying these packs to play the game? They are aesthetic. They are optional. And everything contained within can be bought with in-game credits.

 

They're not going to force me, I'm not STUPID I've learned my lesson, lol. Pretty much as a solo player anything nice and special I've bought with in game credits, months after everyone else is already tired of them. So, like another poster said, I'd like to have a sexxy new goodie too, and I'd be willing to buy said item for said cost, but I AM NOT, going to buy 'x' number for 'x' dollars only to get crap, and hope I might one day win something nice. Screw that. You want the boxes, knock yourself out, lol I'll be richer for it.

[CelCawdro]

Did you miss the point of this thread? Or are you just trying to be cute? Go roll your eyes somewhere else. You're not talking to a fool here.

 

Firstly, if you choose to buy these packs specifically for a single item, that is a gamble of your own creation. You are ignoring everything else included in the package, akin to buying dozens of cereal boxes for the random toy within rather than the cereal itself. Secondly, from your original post:

You are placing some of the coolest stuff in to these bags and making it to where the only way you can get this stuff is to gamble.

That is not the only means of obtaining these items. You can place the element of chance squarely on someone else's shoulders and buy them for in-game currency without spending one red cent.

[CelCawdro]

They're not going to force me, I'm not STUPID I've learned my lesson, lol. Pretty much as a solo player anything nice and special I've bought with in game credits, months after everyone else is already tired of them. So, like another poster said, I'd like to have a sexxy new goodie too, and I'd be willing to buy said item for said cost, but I AM NOT, going to buy 'x' number for 'x' dollars only to get crap, and hope I might one day win something nice. Screw that. You want the boxes, knock yourself out, lol I'll be richer for it.

 

... could you rephrase all of that, please? I honestly have no clue of what you were trying to get across.

[Blackavaar]

Slightly off topic... but tell me how you feel about the prizes inside the box of Cracker Jacks.

 

If the prizes inside a box of Cracker Jacks were things like, a brand new Leather Jacket or a Crown of Gold and Jewels, that might be an apt analogy. As it is it is not.

 

[Lunafox]

And as an adult with real life worries you can choose not to worry about the bags and pretend they don't exist. Just because you don't want to use them because you have bad luck no one should have them? Sounds more childish than adult to me.

 

Nope, not childish at all, I have sense, but if you want to throw good money after bad, when you're already subscribing and carrying f2p and a cash shop on your back, go ahead. Be a kid, have at it.

 

Maybe in a few years after you've been rooked by this lottary box scam you'll grow some sense too. After all, I was once like you, and sank hundreds into this kind of junk already. I'm sorry you haven't smartened up yet. Good luck in the future.

[GnatB]

With regard to the legality issue in the US, here are a couple of quotes from Price v. Pinnacle Brands, Inc., 138 F.3d 602 (5th Cir. 1998). This was a RICO case, but it directly considered the issue of whether collectible trading cards are considered "gambling." It is fairly typical of the case law on this issue.

 

Just to point out, the "ruling" portion of that quote/suit doesn't say anything about whether or not it's gambling. Just that the plaintiffs have no RICO suit, as they DID, in fact, get what they paid for. Just like if you bet $500 on black, and it comes up red, you get what you paid for.

 

And there's a difference between cereal/cracker jack toys and this. Cereal toys are generally valued at a fairly insignificant fraction of the price of the cereal. From what I've seen in these packs, the only item of any real value IS the rare. In a game where you level rediculously fast and almost always are overleveled, +exp doesn't do jack. Mats are dime/dozen.

[Lunafox]

... could you rephrase all of that, please? I honestly have no clue of what you were trying to get across.

 

Nope, can't be bothered.

[Walking-Carpet]

Just to point out, the "ruling" portion of that quote/suit doesn't say anything about whether or not it's gambling. Just that the plaintiffs have no RICO suit, as they DID, in fact, get what they paid for. Just like if you bet $500 on black, and it comes up red, you get what you paid for.

In order to determine whether the plaintiffs had a viable RICO suit, the court analyzed several factors. One of those factors was whether the card packs constituted gambling, which is the part I quoted. The court held that the packs did not constitute gambling. For that reason (along with others I didn't quote), the lower court's dismissal of the RICO suit was upheld.

[GnatB]

In order to determine whether the plaintiffs had a viable RICO suit, the court analyzed several factors. One of those factors was whether the card packs constituted gambling, which is the part I quoted. The court held that the packs did not constitute gambling. For that reason (along with others I didn't quote), the lower court's dismissal of the RICO suit was upheld.

 

Maybe you quoted the wrong part then? Only reference to gambling in the parts you quoted was where it was saying what the plaintiffs were claiming, not in the decision part. Nothing in the decision part indicates one way or the other whether or not said cards constitute gambling. Just that the plaintiffs got what they paid for. 6-20 cards and a chance that one is a chase card. Now, admittedly I'm not up to par on legalese, but the rest of that judgement,

 

Injury to mere expectancy interests or to an “intangible property interest” is not sufficient to confer RICO standing. [footnote omitted] Furthermore, as noted by the court, even if a pack does not contain a chase card, “[p]laintiffs do not allege that the value of the cards that they did receive is less than the consideration paid.” [footnote omitted] And even though courts may look to state law to determine, for RICO purposes, whether a property interest exists, [footnote omitted] it does not follow that any injury for which a plaintiff might assert a state law claim is necessarily sufficient to establish a claim under RICO. [footnote omitted]

 

I assume is flat out saying it doesn't matter whether it's gambling or not as to whether this is a RICO violation/case. Particularly the first part

Injury to mere expectancy interests or to an “intangible property interest” is not sufficient to confer RICO standing.

They aren't saying whether or not it's gambling. They're saying that whether or not it's gambling doesn't matter as far as this suit goes.

[Wraiven]

Slightly off topic... but tell me how you feel about the prizes inside the box of Cracker Jacks.

 

lol, my parents bought those for me...by the time I grew up, I stopped eating cracker jacks.

[Roalmo]

Just a dry thought in a dry season:

 

Aren't ftpers limited to cash they can have on their toons, and GTN activities?

 

So a lot of those "great" items might wind up as vendor trash, not on the gtn?

[Andryah]

Just a dry thought in a dry season:

 

Aren't ftpers limited to cash they can have on their toons, and GTN activities?

 

So a lot of those "great" items might wind up as vendor trash, not on the gtn?

 

they get an escrow bucket that extra credits overflow into I believe (just like LoTRO I believe). Not sure if there is a cap on the escrow or not.

[GnatB]

they get an escrow bucket that extra credits overflow into I believe (just like LoTRO I believe). Not sure if there is a cap on the escrow or not.

 

Interesting, so it's more a limit of how much they can pay for something, than how much they can actually earn?

[Andryah]

Interesting, so it's more a limit of how much they can pay for something, than how much they can actually earn?

 

Yeah, both spend and receive I bet. Though there might be a hard cap on the escrow at some high amount. But basically it's to prevent free accounts being used as money launderers I think.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Andryah