Marauder needs a Nerf

[warultima]

YEEES GOOOD GOOOOD, GIVE IN TO THE HATE !

 

Smells like troll to me, anyone saying they could have pulled of 2m in a WZ thats not standstill (even then)!

 

On another hand, mercs could use a ability to gain distance; also bioware said mara/sents were where they are supposed to be pre the rage "buff", and in all fairness, rage (lolsmash) was never buffed. Maras/juggies have had the same rage spec and 6k+ smashes since ages ago, they only changed berserk in rage, wich doesnt effect the smashes in any other way then what it did before.

 

Yea they only shortened the ramp up time, the effective reuse time, and making it nearly instant so even for the most skilled players cant dodge it even if they saw its coming and a heavy ticking dot with 90% slow thats also auto stacking the "derpa stack" for you with 2 force charges (one of them even hits like truck while also making your IN-COMBAT run speed 40% faster for 5 second on a 15 sec cd) definitely doesnt help derpasmash at all.

 

On top of that also buffing vicious throw for derpasmashers as in they are not doing enough damage to kill people.

 

I know i know we all love derpasmash its fine l2smash.

Edited October 23, 2012 by warultima

[Tommot]

Rage needs a nerf, that's it. Not the whole class.

[Okamakiri]

Merc I run with parses 1900-1950 on a dummy. In other words, on spot with the theoretical highest DPS optimization for the class in SimC....

Yeah....

 

Then I fail to see how you're "running several hundred thousand more damage per boss fight than other geared DPS as a carnage mara". Unless you're pulling 3k DPS, and that I'd love to see. If all DPS is pulling their weight, everyone's total damage per boss fight IS several hundred thousand damage. Maras are top DPS, but not by the huge margin you make it out to be, especially when you consider actual fight situations (where DPS uptime and aoe capability counts too). You can't just look at pure single target dummy DPS and ignore all the other factors that can affect it in an actual boss fight.

[Omophorus]

Then I fail to see how you're "running several hundred thousand more damage per boss fight than other geared DPS as a carnage mara". Unless you're pulling 3k DPS, and that I'd love to see. If all DPS is pulling their weight, everyone's total damage per boss fight IS several hundred thousand damage. Maras are top DPS, but not by the huge margin you make it out to be, especially when you consider actual fight situations (where DPS uptime and aoe capability counts too). You can't just look at pure single target dummy DPS and ignore all the other factors that can affect it in an actual boss fight.

 

That primarily bonks into a game design issue.

 

Most current content (EC and TFB in particular) are very tolerant of high uptime for a single melee DPS. Multiple melees will suffer, and ranged tend to have to execute mechanics that cost them significant DPS (since few can truly keep up noteworthy DPS while moving).

 

If ranged DPS were better able to turret (which can be improved upon in many fights with tactics), you'd see less disparity.

 

Nerfing Marauder is one way to approach the problem (and a stupid way, at that). Better content design (e.g. similar uptime for all members) and upward class rebalances for underperormers are much better ways.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Omophorus

[Okamakiri]

That primarily bonks into a game design issue.

 

Most current content (EC and TFB in particular) are very tolerant of high uptime for a single melee DPS. Multiple melees will suffer, and ranged tend to have to execute mechanics that cost them significant DPS (since few can truly keep up noteworthy DPS while moving).

 

If ranged DPS were better able to turret (which can be improved upon in many fights with tactics), you'd see less disparity.

 

Nerfing Marauder is one way to approach the problem (and a stupid way, at that). Better content design (e.g. similar uptime for all members) and upward class rebalances for underperormers are much better ways.

 

I was more implying that there are plenty of fights that favor range. Most of the fights in TFB favor range or at best put them at no disadvantage compared to melee. I think more than anything many classes need their DPS buffed, not maras nerfed.

[AsiriusNazriel]

Yea they only shortened the ramp up time, the effective reuse time, and making it nearly instant so even for the most skilled players cant dodge it even if they saw its coming and a heavy ticking dot with 90% slow thats also auto stacking the "derpa stack" for you with 2 force charges (one of them even hits like truck while also making your IN-COMBAT run speed 40% faster for 5 second on a 15 sec cd) definitely doesnt help derpasmash at all.

 

On top of that also buffing vicious throw for derpasmashers as in they are not doing enough damage to kill people.

 

I know i know we all love derpasmash its fine l2smash.

 

Someone got gang banged by a horde of raging Marauders lately?

 

It's a stupidly soft spec that is easily killed, provided you take out the pocket healer. I don't even run it because of that. Just cause it's the new FOTM doesn't mean it's OP. If you had 8 Carnage Maras or 8 PTs running against you in CW or Voidstar I bet we'd hear the same QQ.

 

Having said that, the uber rage generation that Rage Maras are getting is beyond ridiculous, you don't even have to worry about Rage pools anymore and that needs to change.

Edited October 23, 2012 by AsiriusNazriel

[Royox]

So let's compare marauder's Defensive Skills with my 2 main characters (Guardian tank and Vanguard assault).

 

 

-Saber Ward. 25% less damage taken. +50% defense against tech and force.

 

-Cloak of Pain. 20% less dammage taken. Returns damage to opponent. Every time u are hit time increases until 30 sec.

 

-Undying Rage. 50% hp spent to have 99% less damage (usually used when you are bout to kill them to stand 4 sec more while they use their WZ Medpack)

 

-Force Camouflage: Invisibru, -50% damage, +30% speed. For 4 seconds.

 

Please Explain me why a Marauder (PURE DPS Class) have more Defensive CD's than my Guardian Tank.

 

My guardian tank:

 

-Saber Ward

 

-Enure (used like Undying Rage...gives u moar seconds to get healed).

 

-Warding Call (40% dmg received Reduced)

 

 

And Why my vanguard Assault (Tank-DPS class) only have 1

 

-Reactive Shield. Less 25% damage. NOT DEFENSE BUFF.

 

 

 

Mara DPS is "ok" (except SMASH on Rage. 7k AOE instant unavoidable hits). What's its not good is their survivance.

 

I can't kite them (cause they have 2 jumps, slow downs, speed buffs, etc). And I can't "over damage" them cause they have 4 times more defensive skills than my Vanguard.

[AsiriusNazriel]

So let's compare marauder's Defensive Skills with my 2 main characters (Guardian tank and Vanguard assault).

 

 

-Saber Ward. 25% less damage taken. +50% defense against tech and force.

 

-Cloak of Pain. 20% less dammage taken. Returns damage to opponent. Every time u are hit time increases until 30 sec.

 

-Undying Rage. 50% hp spent to have 99% less damage (usually used when you are bout to kill them to stand 4 sec more while they use their WZ Medpack)

 

-Force Camouflage: Invisibru, -50% damage, +30% speed. For 4 seconds.

 

Please Explain me why a Marauder (PURE DPS Class) have more Defensive CD's than my Guardian Tank.

 

My guardian tank:

 

-Saber Ward

 

-Enure (used like Undying Rage...gives u moar seconds to get healed).

 

-Warding Call (40% dmg received Reduced)

 

 

And Why my vanguard Assault (Tank-DPS class) only have 1

 

-Reactive Shield. Less 25% damage. NOT DEFENSE BUFF.

 

 

 

Mara DPS is "ok" (except SMASH on Rage. 7k AOE instant unavoidable hits). What's its not good is their survivance.

 

I can't kite them (cause they have 2 jumps, slow downs, speed buffs, etc). And I can't "over damage" them cause they have 4 times more defensive skills than my Vanguard.

 

Dude, if you can't solo a non-Annihilation Marauder as a Vanguard, you have issues. The 2 jumps are only for Rage specs. And Rage spec is retardedly squishy unless they have a pocket healer. You should be tooling all non-Annihilation Maras 1v1 via kiting. Granted this is if everyone is similarly (or if you are better geared).

 

As far as tanks go, you should be tied to the hip with a pocket healer or another dps. Not 1v1ing Marauders, although I would think that you should be able to kill any non Annihilation spec solo as well, but I could be wrong here.

 

The reason I leave Anni out of this is because Anni is the ultimate spec for 1v1ing, only susceptible to kiting and really good stunlock Operatives/Scoundrels. But that is my biased view as I don't play FOTM specs but love to see others play them.

Edited October 24, 2012 by AsiriusNazriel

[IAmViiOLENT]

http://i.imgur.com/KP2NU.png

 

This is from the last fight of TFB.

 

Biancia is a Pyro PT, Zakiro is our Merc. The other DPS wasn't in MoX, but came out with 950k. (Jugg)

 

Btw, Maximum reported DPS for a marauder in my current gear using Spreadsheet info is almost 2524 dps.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As2FyyXXpVAtdDFLZlRDQWxLc1JpOHFLUEpKa3VXRmc#gid=0

[Royox]

Dude, if you can't solo a non-Annihilation Marauder as a Vanguard, you have issues. The 2 jumps are only for Rage specs. And Rage spec is retardedly squishy unless they have a pocket healer. You should be tooling all non-Annihilation Maras 1v1 via kiting. Granted this is if everyone is similarly (or if you are better geared).

 

As far as tanks go, you should be tied to the hip with a pocket healer or another dps. Not 1v1ing Marauders, although I would think that you should be able to kill any non Annihilation spec solo as well, but I could be wrong here.

 

The reason I leave Anni out of this is because Anni is the ultimate spec for 1v1ing, only susceptible to kiting and really good stunlock Operatives/Scoundrels. But that is my biased view as I don't play FOTM specs but love to see others play them.

 

Explain me how to kite this:

 

Force Leap + Grip + Obliterate + Crush withouth wasting my stuns for being able to use one of them when he uses "undying".

[AsiriusNazriel]

Explain me how to kite this:

 

Force Leap + Grip + Obliterate + Crush withouth wasting my stuns for being able to use one of them when he uses "undying".

 

Knowing what spec you're running would make htis much easier.

 

Okay first off that is the wrong combination of moves. What you'll most likely see is force leep, battering assault, force crush, smash. Then he can force choke, obliterate, smash. That is the general idea, I don't blame smash spec so if someone else can confirm it, it would be appreciated.

 

You get a Marauder leaping to you, you pop your big armor shield and proceed to break 4m while attacking him. That means that you are strafing and not keyboard turning or backpeddling. You basically kite the guy and save your knockbacks/stuns for when he tries to Ravage or use Undying Rage. You just break distance. If he hits Ravage while you're running away then he's doing your job for you, he's making it easier for you to break distance and he'll now have to reclose. If he is Rage spec then he has the 2 closers so then use a knockback.

 

I don't know what gear you're running, I don't know the spec. The best bet is to go to the Vanguard section and ask around. Maybe even dropping a thread into the Powertech section as well. Gear has serious influence on your success rate as well as skill and tactics.

 

When you see a smash monkey, as indicated by the Shi-Cho symbol, don't stand near to other players. Those guys attack groups and you'll be targeted. Again, it's all about keep as close to 10m range as possible and kiting. The only time you engage short range is soft classes like Sages/Sorcs/Smuggers/Operatives, for everything else you kite kite kite.

[RTCBrad]

I cant believe it hasn't been nerfed yet. Marauder has gone from FOTM to FOTL6M.

[AsiriusNazriel]

I cant believe it hasn't been nerfed yet. Marauder has gone from FOTM to FOTL6M.

 

It has been nerfed, it was reduced from 5seconds to 4seconds. Marauders were never FOTM, people decided to roll another class other than Sage/Sorc as alts.

 

All this FOTM **** is bogus. The only FOTM I see is Focus/Rage smashers and frankly it isn't really a FOTM. It's that now the tree has a different dynamic and people want to play something other than Annihilation for 6 months and then Carnage for the other 2.

 

Just because you don't choose to have 7 toons in your stable as alts doens't mean that other players don't.

 

Maras/Sents are a very engaging melee experience and that's why I rolled one during closed Beta and my main was a Mara from early access. I don't see a problem with having 2-3 other Maras in a WZ with me other than the fact that they generally all suck, suck BAD!

 

Should Undying Rage be on a 3sec timer? I dunno, it would defeat the purpose of the ability. You get a killer burst at 30%, so do Assassins with their Assassinate, so this is the Mara reverse of it.

 

There is pretty much nothing to nerf on Maras other than the shared Rage tree, where I certainly don't agree with the changes that Bioware brought about in 1.4. Rage should've stayed the same as it was pre-1.4, with better Rage management. Frankly, there was never a rage management issue, it's just that poor players don't know that they should have a full bar of Rage before they start spending it. But hey, isn't it easier to just give everyone the option of having an instant 12 Rage so they don't have to keep tabs on how they use their abilities or keep tabs on that rage reserve.

 

The Rage spec potential was always there, not much has changed as far as the 6-7k hits possible, it's just easier for mediocre players to not worry about Rage management so they are getting the easy way to play Rage.

 

It's like the Annihilation Marauder who complains about having Rage management issues, if you have Rage management issues in Juyo form then you're not doing it right. You should NEVER EVER has any issue with rage management with any spec.

 

Anyways, let's not hijack this thread and I did take it off on a tangent. Stick to the OPs post and discussion.

[Siorac]

Knowing what spec you're running would make htis much easier.

 

Okay first off that is the wrong combination of moves. What you'll most likely see is force leep, battering assault, force crush, smash. Then he can force choke, obliterate, smash. That is the general idea, I don't blame smash spec so if someone else can confirm it, it would be appreciated.

 

You get a Marauder leaping to you, you pop your big armor shield and proceed to break 4m while attacking him. That means that you are strafing and not keyboard turning or backpeddling. You basically kite the guy and save your knockbacks/stuns for when he tries to Ravage or use Undying Rage. You just break distance. If he hits Ravage while you're running away then he's doing your job for you, he's making it easier for you to break distance and he'll now have to reclose. If he is Rage spec then he has the 2 closers so then use a knockback.

 

I don't know what gear you're running, I don't know the spec. The best bet is to go to the Vanguard section and ask around. Maybe even dropping a thread into the Powertech section as well. Gear has serious influence on your success rate as well as skill and tactics.

 

When you see a smash monkey, as indicated by the Shi-Cho symbol, don't stand near to other players. Those guys attack groups and you'll be targeted. Again, it's all about keep as close to 10m range as possible and kiting. The only time you engage short range is soft classes like Sages/Sorcs/Smuggers/Operatives, for everything else you kite kite kite.

 

I love this advice: kite the Marauder/Sentinel! Use your shield!

 

The shield has a 2 minute cooldown, Force Leap has a 15 second one. Your advice also assumes that the Marauder/Sentinel in question is an utter idiot who 1) doesn't use Leg Slash, 2) doesn't use Force Exhaustion/Crush if Rage/Focus specced, 2) doesn't use Cauterize to slow you down in Anni/Watchman spec, 3) doesn't root the living cr*p out of you in the spec that is BUILT for rooting. I won't even mention the speed boost of Ataru form. Oh, and there's Transcendence/Predation. There is Obliterate/Zealous Leap in Rage/Focus. There is the NO MINIMUM RANGE Force Leap in Annihilation/Watchman. Every single spec gets more than enough tools to prevent effective kiting.

 

With an Assault Vanguard, it's a DPS race against a Marauder. Kiting them isn't really an option, as Ion Pulse slows them only by 30% while Leg Slash does by 50%. No knockback either; Cryo Grenade have to be saved for I'mwinning Rage while the AoE stun must be reserved for Ravage. An Assault Vanguard must hope that 1) his shield is available while Saber Ward isn't, 2) pray for nice fat crits on Sticky Grenade, Assault Plastique and High Impact Bolt. They, at least, have the burst to bring a Marauder down. Though you have to expect at least one Obfuscated High Impact Bolt if the Mara in question is competent.

 

Marauders/Sentinels have very high damage, a huge array of anti-kiting tools, extremely powerful defensive cooldowns and no resource issues whatsoever. It's the perfect, complete AC.

[Ryat]

Marauders/Sentinels have very high damage, a huge array of anti-kiting tools, extremely powerful defensive cooldowns and no resource issues whatsoever. It's the perfect, complete AC.

 

If its perfect then it doesn't need a nerf. Everything else needs a buff up.

[TalonVII]

If its perfect then it doesn't need a nerf. Everything else needs a buff up.

 

Hey i'll take some buffs to my vanguard.

 

Can't kite when i am rooted every 5-10 seconds.

 

But hey i know a great way to make vanguards better. Allow us to equip a tech staff and change some of the abilities on the Tactics tree to compensate for us being able to equip a tech staff. That way we can melee with a Marauder instead of just having to TRY and kite.

[MorgonKara]

People used to laugh at me when I told them I spec'd my Marauder Rage. They aren't laughing now.

[Royox]

People used to laugh at me when I told them I spec'd my Marauder Rage. They aren't laughing now.

 

And when 1.5 comes out you will cry with the massive nerf.

[MrRuck]

Someone got gang banged by a horde of raging Marauders lately?

 

It's a stupidly soft spec that is easily killed, provided you take out the pocket healer. I don't even run it because of that. Just cause it's the new FOTM doesn't mean it's OP. If you had 8 Carnage Maras or 8 PTs running against you in CW or Voidstar I bet we'd hear the same QQ.

 

Having said that, the uber rage generation that Rage Maras are getting is beyond ridiculous, you don't even have to worry about Rage pools anymore and that needs to change.

Agreed on both points.

Edited October 28, 2012 by MrRuck

[HaemmernZeit]

Since the OP posted two pics to prove marauders/sentinels needing a nerf, here is one.

http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac299/drewpiss/lolgames/Screenshot_2012-10-09_23_49_59_961854.jpg

Its a sage doing over 1 million damage. Therefore, nerf sage/sorcs!

[Masarko]

http://i.imgur.com/vKTyD.jpg

 

Rage = Aoe

Pyro = Singletarget nuke

 

Please look and the pic and deaths to see uptime in damage.

 

Just saying, so before you badies cry for nerfs: L2P, Powertechs still dominate

Edited October 29, 2012 by Masarko

[Mancer]

http://i.imgur.com/vKTyD.jpg

 

Rage = Aoe

Pyro = Singletarget nuke

 

Please look and the pic and deaths to see uptime in damage.

 

Just saying, so before you badies cry for nerfs: L2P, Powertechs still dominate

 

And he didnt even get a MVP vote....

[Omophorus]

And he didnt even get a MVP vote....

 

High scoreboard damage is a terrible reason to get MVP votes.

 

Objectives always*, unless you're voting for a friend to increase the number of comms they get.

 

*Unless someone has a shockingly overwhelming contribution to a win in spite of an overall low objective score, e.g. a clutch ninja-cap on Civil War the moment before PONR that turns into a victory.

[QuietGoneJinn]

High scoreboard damage is a terrible reason to get MVP votes.

 

Objectives always*, unless you're voting for a friend to increase the number of comms they get.

 

*Unless someone has a shockingly overwhelming contribution to a win in spite of an overall low objective score, e.g. a clutch ninja-cap on Civil War the moment before PONR that turns into a victory.

I don't think anyone ever gives MVP votes rationally.

 

I start a game and get 1st with 16k Objective points, planting winning bomb and defusing 2 bombs on Voidstar: 0 MVP votes

 

I get thrown into a losing game where I got 0 kills for 1 death: 4 MVP votes