Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[maverickmatt]

Was specifically referring to the Engineer Sniper roll exploit, that Maverick brought up as an irrelevant topic. Mechanically, anything a Premade Sniper can do, a PuG sniper can do. Hence the irrelevance of the topic of the Sniper bug.

 

If you say that, you might as well say that premades have no advantages because a PuG can do anything they can.

I'll say this once more...

 

It IS a relevant point.

How?

 

Premades have the ability to select composition (a point we both agree on)

Premades have higher level communication/coordination (a point we also both agree on)

 

As both of these are accepted facts, how do they not support my point? PuGs cannot coordinate 2 rollbangs for superior effect, in the same way they cannot coordinate 2 smashes.

 

It wasn't meant to be a primary point, as both you can Cashology made it seem. It was meant to be a supporting idea.

 

Those were the only points I was trying to make.

 

 

If you REALLY want to go in-depth on irrelevant posts, I'm sure I can scrounge up 10 or 15 banter posts between you and Comfterbilly, or any number of other posters whom you've had a disagreement with. Relevance? none.

 

Pots and Kettles, my friend.

 

As far as Cashology is concerned...

You lost your credibility the moment you made your post an attack on me as a person.

[SajPl]

If you say that, you might as well say that premades have no advantages because a PuG can do anything they can.

I'll say this once more...

 

It IS a relevant point.

How?

 

Premades have the ability to select composition (a point we both agree on)

Premades have higher level communication/coordination (a point we also both agree on)

 

As both of these are accepted facts, how do they not support my point? PuGs cannot coordinate 2 rollbangs for superior effect, in the same way they cannot coordinate 2 smashes.

 

It wasn't meant to be a primary point, as both you can Cashology made it seem. It was meant to be a supporting idea.

 

Those were the only points I was trying to make.

 

 

If you REALLY want to go in-depth on irrelevant posts, I'm sure I can scrounge up 10 or 15 banter posts between you and Comfterbilly, or any number of other posters whom you've had a disagreement with. Relevance? none.

 

Pots and Kettles, my friend.

 

As far as Cashology is concerned...

You lost your credibility the moment you made your post an attack on me as a person.

 

Pugs can't also do the end-game nightmare ops. NERF.

[maverickmatt]

Pugs can't also do the end-game nightmare ops. NERF.

 

I think you and I have different views here. You're obviously being sarcastic, however I agree with you. PuGs (for the most part) can't do Nightmare Ops... that is working as intended.

 

BUT

 

When PuGs can't even participate in PvP and have fun.. well.. that's not WIA.

[cashogy_reborn]

No they can't. Not even close.

 

Not when they aren't getting heals and their team is short on dps and the other team is cross healing with tank guards, etc, etc , etc and they are spending their time at the med center. I easily average triple or quadruple the damage on my sniper when in a good premade rolling pugs vs solo queuing and getting rolled by one.

 

That's the point really, is that a team is more than the sum of it's parts. Everyone functions better in a well balanced coordinated team.

 

what you describe could be ANY DPS IN A PREMADE.

 

wallbanging has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with original course of whining.

 

the fact that many of you are now whining about it speaks volumes about what the actual basis of these whines are: bads dont like playing better players.

 

"wah that guy has friends and knows how to use a broken mechanic that everyone knows about, wah wah nerf premades"

 

^thats you

[Vasagi]

The actual percentage of Competitive Premades is minute in comparison to the actual number of Premades.

 

I know.. I know.. Video or it didn't happen. But it happened to me while playing against one of these Competitive Premades, several times I might add.

 

I know, and he/she knows.

 

It represents a small minority, yes..

 

but again, so do competitive premades (which is what the heart of this thread is about, mind you)

 

 

 

It only takes one bad apple... so they say.

 

My point has always been:

 

Get competitive teams out of my Warzone. I couldn't care how, really. I think matchmaking is better than solo-queueing, but neither will stand on their own. It's unfortunate that Ranked teams often don't police themselves, and as such they must be policed. If you take a different stance, I urge you to consider that the most successful MMO in history has taken the same stance (see HERE). No one in this thread has the data, the knowledge, or the position to argue with such a statement.

 

 

Possibly could have gone without mentioning the bug. It doesn't matter at this point, but please don't pretend that the coordinated exploitation of near-instakill bugs isn't an issue that is exclusive to premades of all types. You can give me example A, B, C, D or E and unless they have voicecomm it doesn't count for much.

 

I'm glad Blizzard finally realized pug farming by premades was hurting their game and did something about it. All the points that Blizzard rep makes are points that are made in this thread, and still the premade white-knighters throw the same tired old responses of "make friends" and "learn 2 play".

 

I really do hope BW/EA learns from this before the game is beyond help. Maybe it is already beyond help; the population is so low on my server that you have 20-30m queues outside of peak play times, and more people are leaving every day.

 

I hate to say this, but I don't think BW is taking a moral stance on allowing pug farming. I think they are unwilling to take resources away from churning out cartel market items, since that is where they make their money now.

[Doomsdaycomes]

If you say that, you might as well say that premades have no advantages because a PuG can do anything they can.

I'll say this once more...

 

It IS a relevant point.

 

I meant, and stand by that there is no mechanic in a class that one queue type has that another doesn't. No matter how you queue a class/spec still has the same abilities (no semantics here. To clarify queue'ing solo doesn't take away a Jugg's leap ability as an example).

 

Not to be rude, not sure why you brought it back up.

[Doomsdaycomes]

There were 44 pvp servers year ago in US and now there is only 2 pvp servers.

 

http://dulfy.net/2012/03/01/numerical-swtor-population-data-for-pvprp-pvp-servers/

 

Extrapolate this trend to future, how many pvp servers there will be in next year?

 

Premades already ruin game. Imperial premades, cuz faction 2:1 imbalance. R.I.P Swtor pvp. R.I.P.

 

You have effect, you do not have cause.

 

Lemme list some other possible one's off for you, then you can find the article specifically about ToR that points the finger to which one:

 

Boring Gameplay

Class Imbalance

Lack of content

Lack of Open World PvP

Imbalance in PvE and PvP gear

Lack of Ranked Warzones

Lack of Matchmaking

Lack of cross-server queues

1.2 healer nerfs

Stun-based pvp

Stunlocking operatives (they have metrics these make people quit)

Free to Play restrictions

Cartel Market (some people hate games with cash shops of any kind).

Over-ambitious opening (it's possible ToR open more servers than it could ever support)

 

Any one (or combination of theser) of these can be responsible for players quitting, there's no proof of causation here.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I'm glad Blizzard finally realized pug farming by premades was hurting their game and did something about it. All the points that Blizzard rep makes are points that are made in this thread, and still the premade white-knighters throw the same tired old responses of "make friends" and "learn 2 play".

 

I really do hope BW/EA learns from this before the game is beyond help. Maybe it is already beyond help; the population is so low on my server that you have 20-30m queues outside of peak play times, and more people are leaving every day.

 

I hate to say this, but I don't think BW is taking a moral stance on allowing pug farming. I think they are unwilling to take resources away from churning out cartel market items, since that is where they make their money now.

 

How about you stop pissing and moaning and lying...

 

And join the discussion on how to "fix" the issue. Look around, you'll find maybe 1 or 2 posters who only say "Make friends, l2p." (In contrast to a number of PuG-centric posters who come in trash talking about the premade motives, personal habits, and other demonization's.)

 

Wanna know what the rest of your labeled "White-Knighters" are saying; "Yes, there's a bad situation. Whether it's cause of a lack of Casual effort or too much Non-Casual effort, lopsided matches occur. We need a mechanic that targets that, so casuals and non-casuals can all have their fun as much as possible. Matchmaking would do that."

 

So stop spouting your hateful nonsense, it's dragging down the conversation every time someone has to defend themselves from the next wave of "Premades kick Puppies."

[UncelSam]

I have ran preamde some and i can tell you...

 

Premades has the big laverage that they can compose the team of a balanced set of healers and tanks pre-fight. They Top thier team. Its a HUGE unbalance since all in pvp is about loading the biggest heals. If you got att, which all Premade teams has, u need NO SKILLS AT ALL to pvp. U just spam attacks around u while backed up by 2-3 or more powerhealers.

 

And since most premades even has voice Communication with other teammates they can focus fire on certain player -also a HUGE advantage. Healers can instantly call for help if attcked, which makes the healers untouchable due to tanks, and guarding dps fire , and ofc thier own HUGE healing skills. And they can ofc cross heal eachother in case of need.

 

So , all you basicly do as PUG is trying to run around shooting at healers that cant die. Voidstar mission focus is outta the window since all u can do is chase healers that cant die.

 

Matchresuslts are often PUGs: 1-2 kils per player and Preamdes: 25-32 kills per player. Thisn is familiar numbers for most experianced Pvpers in Swtor. Just run the numbers and youll see what a HUGE advantage premades has.

 

We really cant have it like this anymore, its just killing all Pvp.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I have ran preamde some and i can tell you...

 

Premades has the big laverage that they can compose the team of a balanced set of healers and tanks pre-fight. They Top thier team. Its a HUGE unbalance since all in pvp is about loading the biggest heals. If you got att, which all Premade teams has, u need NO SKILLS AT ALL to pvp. U just spam attacks around u while backed up by 2-3 or more powerhealers.

 

And since...

 

*Sigh*

 

Why do you beat on a dead horse (and in turn make me do so?).

 

Every "advantage" a Premade has is not exclusive to a Premade (except voice-chat), nor is it automatically granted to a Premade by the act of queuing.

 

Therefore, every advantage a Premade has (including voice chat) would be reflected in a win/loss or skill-based rating system. Using that system in a matchmaking system, Advantaged/Better players will be placed against like, and Disadvantaged/Lesser player the same, while keeping queue times low regardless of queue type

 

The only point at which it "fails" is when the population is too low to create a game based on any percentage of criteria. In that situation, the other common option fails as well (split queues), resulting in No match for the largest amount of players (up to 30 players unable to play).

 

I'd even say (though I think it's a bit redundant) the matchmaking system could prioritize by queue type when possible.

 

Can we agree on this, or do we need to get into another debate about "advantages"

[UncelSam]

*Sigh*

 

Why do you beat on a dead horse (and in turn make me do so?).

 

Every "advantage" a Premade has is not exclusive to a Premade (except voice-chat), nor is it automatically granted to a Premade by the act of queuing.

 

Therefore, every advantage a Premade has (including voice chat) would be reflected in a win/loss or skill-based rating system. Using that system in a matchmaking system, Advantaged/Better players will be placed against like, and Disadvantaged/Lesser player the same, while keeping queue times low regardless of queue type

 

The only point at which it "fails" is when the population is too low to create a game based on any percentage of criteria. In that situation, the other common option fails as well (split queues), resulting in No match for the largest amount of players (up to 30 players unable to play).

 

I'd even say (though I think it's a bit redundant) the matchmaking system could prioritize by queue type when possible.

 

Can we agree on this, or do we need to get into another debate about "advantages"

 

So why do you object going premade vs premade? You shouldnt bother at all about this.

[UncelSam]

And on top of that PUGs cant make a voice channel. If they create a voice channel with pre-chosen players taht attends, they become Preamde.

 

Voice Communication is HUGE advantage.

Balanced teams is HUGE advatage.

Focus of fire is HUGE advantage.

Powerheals is a HUGE advantage.

[weyby]

*Sigh*

 

Why do you beat on a dead horse (and in turn make me do so?).

 

Every "advantage" a Premade has is not exclusive to a Premade (except voice-chat), nor is it automatically granted to a Premade by the act of queuing.

 

Therefore, every advantage a Premade has (including voice chat) would be reflected in a win/loss or skill-based rating system. Using that system in a matchmaking system, Advantaged/Better players will be placed against like, and Disadvantaged/Lesser player the same, while keeping queue times low regardless of queue type

 

The only point at which it "fails" is when the population is too low to create a game based on any percentage of criteria. In that situation, the other common option fails as well (split queues), resulting in No match for the largest amount of players (up to 30 players unable to play).

 

I'd even say (though I think it's a bit redundant) the matchmaking system could prioritize by queue type when possible.

 

Can we agree on this, or do we need to get into another debate about "advantages"

 

when was the last time you did a pug match?

[Doomsdaycomes]

So why do you object going premade vs premade? You shouldnt bother at all about this.

 

Read:

 

I'd even say (though I think it's a bit redundant) the matchmaking system could prioritize by queue type when possible.

 

Ie. When there are enough players of each type, the matchmaking should prioritize Group vs. Group, PuG vs PuG, of equal rating. Don't let your bias make you look stupid.

 

And on top of that PUGs cant make a voice channel. If they create a voice channel with pre-chosen players taht attends, they become Preamde.

 

Voice Communication is HUGE advantage.

Balanced teams is HUGE advatage.

Focus of fire is HUGE advantage.

Powerheals is a HUGE advantage.

 

 

Voice chat has been established as an advantage that Premades (not all groups though) can have that a PuG can not. Some debate whether it's a huge advantage or a small one, not really relevant. It's there, we know it, got it?

 

Balanced teams is not something a Premade can do (by itself.) Even if they bring the golden 4 (tank, heal, 2dps) they could still be thrown in with 4 dps, or 4 tanks, or 4 healers. Like wise, the enemy team could end up with 2-3 healers, 1-2 tanks, and 4-5 dps and have a golden "balance." Add in players actually utilizing legacy respec, and you've got better team composition.

 

Focus Fire is a skill. It doesn't require voice chat, grouping, etc... It's a skill.

 

Powerheals is a joke at worst, and an issue with game mechanics at best. Either way, having a strong healer is not a premade only thing.

 

Can we stop arguing what's and advantage (or what's a "HUGE Advantage!!!") and instead debate something that actually matters?

Edited July 13, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[Doomsdaycomes]

when was the last time you did a pug match?

 

Today, Yesterday, Day before, Day before that, Day before that, pretty much every day since my break, and every day before that.

 

Your point?

[weyby]

Today, Yesterday, Day before, Day before that, Day before that, pretty much every day since my break, and every day before that.

 

Your point?

 

my point those advantages a premade have- where do I pick them up In pug match? Couse I have missed out the power heals the 3 hit wonders and almost any other thing you said I have as a pugger. pls clarify for me, unless im in one the rare matches where I have on my team 2 heals 2 tanks and 4 dps which is 0.1% of my matches where have that unless im not In a premade except those of my matches I don't have those advantages. so where do I pick them up?

Edited July 13, 2013 by weyby

[cashogy_reborn]

why do pugs lose? cuz they are bad....

 

http://i.imgur.com/poCJ7sl.jpg

 

shameful

[Raazmir]

my point those advantages a premade have- where do I pick them up In pug match? Couse I have missed out the power heals the 3 hit wonders and almost any other thing you said I have as a pugger. pls clarify for me, unless im in one the rare matches where I have on my team 2 heals 2 tanks and 4 dps which is 0.1% of my matches where have that unless im not In a premade except those of my matches I don't have those advantages. so where do I pick them up?

 

You buy field respec and accumulate a second set of gear then respec to what it seems your team needs. If everyone does this than the need/desire to premade will be reduced, as will some of the effects of the premade.

[SajPl]

why do pugs lose? cuz they are bad....

 

http://i.imgur.com/poCJ7sl.jpg

 

shameful

 

<3 50k damage horrorshows. It's the premades fault !

[Doomsdaycomes]

why do pugs lose? cuz they are bad....

 

http://i.imgur.com/poCJ7sl.jpg

 

shameful

 

A bit off topic but got to say...

 

I just played (and left!) a huttball match. First 20 seconds, a PT grabs the huttball, runs through my entire team, isn't stopped on or near any of the two firepits... and scores. Not -1- person shot at him. Perfect score, first 20 seconds, no damage, no opposition.

 

Call me a snob, but that's just sad.

[Doomsdaycomes]

my point those advantages a premade have- where do I pick them up In pug match? Couse I have missed out the power heals the 3 hit wonders and almost any other thing you said I have as a pugger. pls clarify for me, unless im in one the rare matches where I have on my team 2 heals 2 tanks and 4 dps which is 0.1% of my matches where have that unless im not In a premade except those of my matches I don't have those advantages. so where do I pick them up?

 

Now you're just being silly.

 

Is any one excluded from playing a healer as a PuG?

 

Do you have less Powers/Abilties as a PuG? Does grouping magically give a healer 2-3 more abilities with which to "Power heal?" Does being in a group grant players a +50% damage buff for the match?

 

Does guard only work if you are grouped with the target before you queue?

 

There is no difference in the mechanics a PuG player and Group play can use. Simple as that.

[cashogy_reborn]

<3 50k damage horrorshows. It's the premades fault !

 

just dont get how people can fail to break 300k damage in a 10 minute voidstar... let alone not break 100k?

 

mind bottling.

[weyby]

You buy field respec and accumulate a second set of gear then respec to what it seems your team needs. If everyone does this than the need/desire to premade will be reduced, as will some of the effects of the premade.

 

I can heal just as good as the next healer in healing gear without it- and field respect have it. but anyway how do kill them in 3 hits if im not in a premed and they have max= not fresh 55s.

[weyby]

just dont get how people can fail to break 300k damage in a 10 minute voidstar... let alone not break 100k?

 

mind bottling.

 

called facing a premade einstein

[Jadescythe]

Just because I happened to be streaming this last night. Notice my total PUG winning a good match against a premade. We rolled through once we finally got a door. Also check for another poster in this thread to make a cameo .