no hk51 for solo players

[Urael]

Show me numbers to show that it's a majority of people who want to play MMO's solo and I'll believe you. Until then, you're not convincing me. I also understand that the increase of interest in the MMO world has brought a broader group in which does encompass those that cannot or choose not to group up for any content. I have a friend who never ran dugeons in WoW (tried once, didn't like the time commitment to a group). But knowing there are some who prefer solo play doesn't mean it's a majority of the MMO player base. I really, really, find it hard to believe that there are more players in SWTOR who choose not to group than those who do. And, yet, here we are, having this discussion because I feel a very small minority are making such a holler because they're dragging their heels instead of sucking it up and doing a dungeon.

 

The "evidence" is in the "two-tier" fashion that MMORPGs are now made. There is the "leveling game" where "grouping is optional" and then the "end game" where "grouping is manditory". Prior to the WoW model you had to group to level to cap. The games today are proof enough of the change in demand. Even YOU have to admit that.

 

Noone is dragging their feet. They are just not engaging in the parts of the game that are not "fun" for them. You know "games are supposed to be fun" if they aren't we have another word for it and its called "work". Games should "not be work". If you have to do something and are not having fun then it is work. I am not saying that things shouldn't be difficult to aquire. I have repeated this over and over and over again and you conviently ignore this fact ( and the majority of what I wright ) and pull out ONE thing you have a problem with. This tactic is yellow jounalism ( which is in practice in the 4th estate today ). I would ask that from now on you address the entirety of what I write instead of paraphrasing, implying, and spinning what I said to prove your point. I think if you actually open your eyes you will see that I "agree" with most of what you say. I am just pointing out that things have changed overtime and are not as they were circa 2000 when this genre really started to take off.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Urael

[Urael]

Well when many of the grouping fraternity couldn't be bothered to 'work' to group they squealed for a group finder and got one.

 

Interesting observation.

[Lostpenguins]

If you can tell me anything in WoW that requires grouping apart from dungeons/raids/world bosses and some heroic quests out in the world I would be surprised. Your fact is opinion in my opinion!

Um... how? I said that MMORPG's have some things in the game that require grouping up. I didn't say all things in the game. I said some things. I haven't played WoW in a while but are you telling me there aren't any max-level quests outside of the dungeon that require groups? Regardless, my point still stands. There are some things in WoW that require grouping.

 

Just like this game. Some things require grouping up to acquire. HK-51 falls on that side. Case closed.

[Lostpenguins]

Prior to the WoW model you had to group to level to cap.

And we're done because you're flat out wrong. Watched both of my friends level their toons in EQ, both solo.

The games today are proof enough of the change in demand. Even YOU have to admit that.

What MMORPG's that are successful and hold a majority of players have content you can earn all through solo means that exist today? Basically, you have a bunch of games designed trying to be the next big MMO, and they're all flopping. Rift? TSW? GW2? SWTOR? None of these have millions upon millions of users that suddenly show that the majority are solo players. And even in 3 of those games I listed, grouping up is still necessary to obtain some things in the game. So, please provide specific examples.

Noone is dragging their feet. They are just not engaging in the parts of the game that are not "fun" for them.

You're right... they're not dragging their feet. It's more like they've got their arms folded over their chest and they're pouting. A game is not always going to be fun. Doing the same planet content is not fun to me. Having to do anything to earn credits is not fun to me. But I can't think of one game that's fun every second of every moment I'm doing it. If you partake in anything in life, there will be times where whatever it is that's enjoyable to you, will have some moments where it won't be fun. The people you described are people who want to obtain HK-51 how they want to obtain him. Too bad that's not going to happen. Can we move on now?

Edited October 24, 2012 by Lostpenguins

[mothear]

Um... how? I said that MMORPG's have some things in the game that require grouping up. I didn't say all things in the game. I said some things. I haven't played WoW in a while but are you telling me there aren't any max-level quests outside of the dungeon that require groups? Regardless, my point still stands. There are some things in WoW that require grouping.

 

Just like this game. Some things require grouping up to acquire. HK-51 falls on that side. Case closed.

 

Yes instanced fights and word bosses. The nearest quest WoW had to this was for an epic weapon in WotLK which was solo instanced in existing dungeons i.e. if you were on the quest entering the dungeon took you into a different phase.

[Lostpenguins]

Yes instanced fights and word bosses. The nearest quest WoW had to this was for an epic weapon in WotLK which was solo instanced in existing dungeons i.e. if you were on the quest entering the dungeon took you into a different phase.

So, there's no more optional quests in WoW while you're leveling that are made for groups? The ones with elite mobs and such?

 

Regardless... I still don't know what your point is? Do you agree there are some things required in both WoW and SWTOR that require grouped activity to succeed? Well, you should, because it's true. Hence, my statement holds true.

[DarthDrachonus]

HK-51 is a "vanity" item. It is not game breaking/p2win item.

 

Ignoring the childish eyeroll here, I'm gonna hafta disagree with HK-51 being a "vanity" item. he's not worthless, trivial, or pointless in any manner. From what I've gathered from the PTS threads on him, he comes with a high amount of skill toward crew skill missions, and comes more than decently armored, and equipped. That's not vanity.

 

That's being able to take a companion that can possibly wipe the floor with most things inside a storyline. Now, take into account they've said once you do the unlock, you can just buy him with Legacy for each of your characters. Ok, so I make a level 1 Marauder, my legacy level is 24, I buy the HK companion for my level 1, he comes with all the armor, weapons, and equipment my Juggernaut's HK droid has, woah..wait a second. That gives him real use. And even assuming he doesn't come with the weapons and armor that you get when you first get him. That high amount of skill toward crew missions still gives him real use.

 

Is it a P2Win item? no. It's not, but it's not a vanity item either if he comes geared, and has the high skill for crew missions. But it sure would make your life a lot easier on lower level characters. Ergo, I think he should remain as is, required to group to attain.

[Urael]

So, there's no more optional quests in WoW while you're leveling that are made for groups? The ones with elite mobs and such?

 

Regardless... I still don't know what your point is? Do you agree there are some things required in both WoW and SWTOR that require grouped activity to succeed? Well, you should, because it's true. Hence, my statement holds true.

 

Actually your statement "doesn't hold true" in the way you "think" it holds true. It only holds true "at end game" and not before. Nothing in either game "requires" a group because you can opt out of doing that content to obtain the goal of level cap. In the case of leveling, grouping is no longer required in most if not ALL AAA MMORPGs on the market today. These are no longer the days of games like EQ where grouping was required to advance.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Urael

[Urael]

Ignoring the childish eyeroll here, I'm gonna hafta disagree with HK-51 being a "vanity" item. he's not worthless, trivial, or pointless in any manner. From what I've gathered from the PTS threads on him, he comes with a high amount of skill toward crew skill missions, and comes more than decently armored, and equipped. That's not vanity.

 

That's being able to take a companion that can possibly wipe the floor with most things inside a storyline. Now, take into account they've said once you do the unlock, you can just buy him with Legacy for each of your characters. Ok, so I make a level 1 Marauder, my legacy level is 24, I buy the HK companion for my level 1, he comes with all the armor, weapons, and equipment my Juggernaut's HK droid has, woah..wait a second. That gives him real use. And even assuming he doesn't come with the weapons and armor that you get when you first get him. That high amount of skill toward crew missions still gives him real use.

 

Is it a P2Win item? no. It's not, but it's not a vanity item either if he comes geared, and has the high skill for crew missions. But it sure would make your life a lot easier on lower level characters. Ergo, I think he should remain as is, required to group to attain.

 

He is not "needed" to compete in "end game" so he is "fluff". A vanity item. What "he comes with" is comenserate with his level. We have to see if he will scale downward for lower level characters. Also, to be honest crafting is a meh afterthought. I don't craft. Don't want to play that time sink for minimal worth. The information given in this thread by LrdRahvin goes a long way to put salve on the situation.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Urael

[mothear]

So, there's no more optional quests in WoW while you're leveling that are made for groups? The ones with elite mobs and such?

 

Regardless... I still don't know what your point is? Do you agree there are some things required in both WoW and SWTOR that require grouped activity to succeed? Well, you should, because it's true. Hence, my statement holds true.

 

To answer your point all single elite bosses, if I remember correctly were removed in cataclysm, everything is soloable except for 2/3 quests, assuming you don't over gear/level them.

 

My point is fairly obvious, you seem to be equating an HK-51 to something that has to be grouped for because it is an MMO, but I am rejecting your definition of 'what is an MMO' by providing the evidence that other MMO's do not necessarily follow your logic and include quests that have to be groupable outside of raid progression.

[Urael]

And we're done because you're flat out wrong. Watched both of my friends level their toons in EQ, both solo.

 

What MMORPG's that are successful and hold a majority of players have content you can earn all through solo means that exist today? Basically, you have a bunch of games designed trying to be the next big MMO, and they're all flopping. Rift? TSW? GW2? SWTOR? None of these have millions upon millions of users that suddenly show that the majority are solo players. And even in 3 of those games I listed, grouping up is still necessary to obtain some things in the game. So, please provide specific examples.

 

You're right... they're not dragging their feet. It's more like they've got their arms folded over their chest and they're pouting. A game is not always going to be fun. Doing the same planet content is not fun to me. Having to do anything to earn credits is not fun to me. But I can't think of one game that's fun every second of every moment I'm doing it. If you partake in anything in life, there will be times where whatever it is that's enjoyable to you, will have some moments where it won't be fun. The people you described are people who want to obtain HK-51 how they want to obtain him. Too bad that's not going to happen. Can we move on now?

 

You have once again mischaracterized what I said. You are spinning. We are done with this line of thought.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Urael

[DarthDrachonus]

He is not "needed" to compete in "end game" so he is "fluff". A vanity item. What "he comes with" is comenserate with his level. We have to see if he will scale downward for lower level characters. Also, to be honest crafting is a meh afterthought. I don't craft. Don't want to play that time sink for minimal worth. The information given in this thread by LrdRahvin goes a long way to put salve on the situation.

 

The point you just so eloquently made for me, I've put in green. We don't know if he'll scale down on items. I'm sure he'll scale down on level, it would be almost safe to bet he'll scale down on items. But there's always that small chance he won't. And just because YOU don't craft, doesn't mean there are no crafters in the game (obviously huh? Since the GTN is full of player made stuff, and people are advertising it all the time) and this doesn't mean they won't take advantage of it. For the crew missions stuff alone he needs to be group content acquired.

[Graydon]

I don't PUG for reasons I have stated and I won't. I will get him by myself at some point, I can wait till I am geared or an expansion that bumps me up 5 levels if I am not successful. If I eventually find a reliable guild (for each faction) that I click with on my main server I may group with guildies. Right now the guilds I am in don't have many people on anymore. But, I won't PUG.

 

Why would your guildies group with you? Incredibly selfish of you to use them for your own gain, then back to your solo exclusive gaming.

 

You choose to solo.

 

I choose not to pvp. There's some awesome gear from pvp, but I have CHOSEN not to pursue the gear by restricting myself from pvp. Or should I start a crusade for pvp gear for exclusive pve players?

[Lostpenguins]

Actually your statement "doesn't hold true" in the way you "think" it holds true. It only holds true "at end game" and not before. Nothing in either game "requires" a group because you can opt out of doing that content to obtain the goal of level cap. In the case of leveling, grouping is no longer required in most if not ALL AAA MMORPGs on the market today. These are no longer the days of games like EQ where grouping was required to advance.

I'm sorry... is HK-51 required to obtain? No. And you can't get him until level 50, thus, he's endgame. He doesn't help you level. Thus, he's endgame. If you're talking about the legacy perk for a lower level, that's like shuttling your toon high level mods from your main. The fact is, to obtain HK-51, requires endgame stuff and he's not mandatory. You can opt out of not having HK-51. It's not like, while leveling to 49, you have to do some group content to hit level 50. No one is forcing you to group to play this game.

 

fyi: your use of quotes incorrectly like Joey did in Friends when he used air quotes for saying "Sorry".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW8OkSJvhvE

Edited October 24, 2012 by Lostpenguins

[Lostpenguins]

You have once again mischaracterized what I said. You are spinning. We are done with this line of thought.

Because you can't seem to articulate one correctly. You try to bring examples of other games that prove my statements wrong. You failed. /discussion

Edited October 24, 2012 by Lostpenguins

[Lostpenguins]

To answer your point all single elite bosses, if I remember correctly were removed in cataclysm, everything is soloable except for 2/3 quests, assuming you don't over gear/level them.

 

My point is fairly obvious, you seem to be equating an HK-51 to something that has to be grouped for because it is an MMO, but I am rejecting your definition of 'what is an MMO' by providing the evidence that other MMO's do not necessarily follow your logic and include quests that have to be groupable outside of raid progression.

FP's aren't there strictly for raid progression. Some people don't like to raid or don't have enough people to raid with, hence they do FP's. So you can't say that all endgame is designed for raid progression. If that's true, then anything done at level 50 is for raid progression... which would include HK-51. I'm not saying HK-51 has to be grouped content. I'm merely saying that they made it grouped content in this game, this MMO. Deal with it. Demanding that HK-51 be soloable in an MMO is a silly request. If he had been made soloable from the get-go, that would be fine too. But they didn't do it like that. Don't demand that he be soloable just because you only do soloable stuff in an MMO. That's my point.

[Cross_Fade]

I don't see what the problem is playing with a group. Yeah sure, some of the groups I end up with(defiantly in group finder) are horrible and I hate it.

 

But sometimes I'll group with someone and make a really cool friend:cool: Playing solo is fun, I do it alot, but I enjoy having someone there to help me if I'm getting stuck or for FP and heroics, even just to have someone to talk too. In return I always offer to help them do things they need to do also, even if I'm LEVELS below them. It never hurts to make a friend, or even an acquaintance in the game. Maybe it seems selfish to you, but one of the biggest reasons I wanted to play an mmo was to meet people and have a good time playing a game we both enjoy!

 

Solo or not, HK-51 will be awesome! If you can solo it I'd honestly enjoy seeing that on youtube or something, but why shy away from potentially meeting someone really awesome that you can have fun in game with? Hell, you could even meet your future best friend on here.

[mpdugas]

No, you didn't ask politely. You generalized and insulted anyone who disagreed with you. It wasn't even an under-handed comment. You directly called those who feel that MMO's should require you to group for certain things elitist and childish.

 

I don't think MMO's have to do everything group-wise. But MMO's do have some things that require group activity. Go look it up on wikipedia. That's not just my opinion of what an MMO is, but ACTUALLY what an MMO is. I didn't say everything was group content. The thing is, HK-51 fell on the side of group content and there are people in here upset because he's group content. Why? You're complaining that something you want is group content. Well, let's face it. You're playing a game that has group content in it. SOME THINGS IN THIS GAME WILL REQUIRE GROUPING UP IF YOU WANT IT. HK-51 is one of those things.

 

You complain that HK-51 forces you to group up. But those who understand that an MMO is a group game... most of us wouldn't complain if HK-51 was only obtained through solo missions. We'd be just fine with that. We accept that some things are soloable... others things require groups. And we just chug along with that. The solo players seem to understand that some things in this game require group content, but when it's suddenly something they want, now they flip out and demand a change.

 

This game has been out for almost a year. It is not the first game of it's kind. Plenty of games before it and even many examples shown in this game prove that sometimes you need to group up to get something. You've seen to been complacent with that until that shiny bobble you wanted suddenly was on that other side of the fence.

 

And no, something that benefits all isn't necessarily a good thing. If they just gave everyone max gear and infinite credits... that would be for the good of all, wouldn't it? Then we could stop worrying about loot, and money... and yada yada yada. No. Sometimes to make a prize sweeter you need to make the person work for it. Just handing it out to them their way, all the time, isn't always a good thing.

 

You continue to misrepresent me.

 

Please give me the name of someone whom I have insulted, personally, because they disagreed with me. I do not believe that to be the case. I have always been polite and only asked that something for all be added to the game; I have never suggested that anything be taken away from others for my benefit as solo player.

 

I've never said that solo access to high-end content be "dumbed-down"; I've only asked for an alternative, comparably difficult quest be made available to the people who prefer not to group.

 

I do not share your view that Wikipedia represents a high level of content validity, either. So quoting the MMO definition from that most-unreliable of sources is unconvincing.

 

Just because you keep saying that an MMO is, by definition, a game that requires or assumes grouping does not make it so; that is your opinion, nothing more.

 

MMO > grouping.

[Lostpenguins]

You continue to misrepresent me.

 

Please give me the name of someone whom I have insulted, personally, because they disagreed with me.

Seriously? How about:

However, there is a conceit present, an elitism, that says that only those who group to play deserve the best the game has to offer. That is very offensive.

 

Such a childish decision, and what a waste of a perfectly good game.

Basically you just called anyone who thinks that group play deserves greater rewards must be conceited, elitist, and holding to a "childish decision". Yep... sounds like an insult to me. You globally label anyone with those views as having those qualities. Don't think so? Try saying it's ignorant to believe in a religion or it's such a childish decision to go to a place of worship and see how quickly people will tell you that you're insulting them...

 

I do not share your view that Wikipedia represents a high level of content validity, either. So quoting the MMO definition from that most-unreliable of sources is unconvincing.

Okay, so you have no other way to define what YOU feel is an MMO other than what YOU feel. Congrats, you have 0 credibility in your stance then besides personal belief. Regardless, BW seems to think that HK-51 is going to require group-play to get. So apparently BW and I are on the same side. Which leaves you on the out. /discussion

 

Just because you keep saying that an MMO is, by definition, a game that requires or assumes grouping does not make it so; that is your opinion, nothing more.

So what's your definition of an MMO? You seem to think it's one giant RPG where people can do anything by themselves or choose to group if they want to obtain the exact same things. Let me know how many successful MMO's hold that same belief.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Lostpenguins

[Soluss]

Then set bonuses are not available to a solo player...that's what I thought...solo players can't get the same gear.

 

Set bonuses are pretty trivial. They arent needed to solo instances for example.

[Soluss]

If you can tell me anything in WoW that requires grouping apart from dungeons/raids/world bosses and some heroic quests out in the world I would be surprised. Your fact is opinion in my opinion!

 

Thats different from ToR how? HK-51 is a heroic quests. Deal with it.

[Soluss]

Actually your statement "doesn't hold true" in the way you "think" it holds true. It only holds true "at end game" and not before. Nothing in either game "requires" a group because you can opt out of doing that content to obtain the goal of level cap. In the case of leveling, grouping is no longer required in most if not ALL AAA MMORPGs on the market today. These are no longer the days of games like EQ where grouping was required to advance.

 

But even while leveling, you still have to group to get the best gear. All this arguing doesnt matter. Its an MMO and its a fact that there will be a group requirement for some things in an MMO.

[Soluss]

He is not "needed" to compete in "end game" so he is "fluff". A vanity item. What "he comes with" is comenserate with his level. We have to see if he will scale downward for lower level characters. Also, to be honest crafting is a meh afterthought. I don't craft. Don't want to play that time sink for minimal worth. The information given in this thread by LrdRahvin goes a long way to put salve on the situation.

 

The only thing in endgame that consists of competing is pvp. So is raid armor just fluff or vanity? No. If he does more damage then your other companions then you can consider him raid armor.

[Soluss]

To answer your point all single elite bosses, if I remember correctly were removed in cataclysm, everything is soloable except for 2/3 quests, assuming you don't over gear/level them.

 

My point is fairly obvious, you seem to be equating an HK-51 to something that has to be grouped for because it is an MMO, but I am rejecting your definition of 'what is an MMO' by providing the evidence that other MMO's do not necessarily follow your logic and include quests that have to be groupable outside of raid progression.

 

HK51 has to be grouped for because thats the way the Devs designed it. They are trying to entice people to do every aspect of the game. Why? Because the developers believe thats what makes MMOs .... MMOs

[Liquidacid]

needing to group in an MMO to achieve a specific goal? man this is almost as bad as when I found out you need to group with someone else to have proper sex Edited October 25, 2012 by Liquidacid