no hk51 for solo players

[Lostpenguins]

and the DPS numbers are balanced to factor in your companion ( why do you think there are so many "group pulls").

Right here, shows you don't know what you're talking about. My Marauder + Vette DPS > My Sin + Healer. Those DPS numbers aren't balanced... I can just mitigate and heal through whatever the mobs can dish out to my Sin. Even on my Marauder, my performance is vastly improved if I use my healer. And since non-boss mobs don't enrage, there's no DPS balancing and if you can out-heal their damage, you win.

 

And your whole hunter analogy is still wrong. Comparing Hunters to Marauders is so fail. Marauders kite like Rogues did in WoW when the Rogue used rupture and then vanished and then stun-locked you as you are bleeding to death. Please use proper analogies. Seriously, the farther down the rabbit hole you go in your sort of pitiful defense of solo play the more laughable your arguments become.

[Urael]

Grouping up does not define one as a hardcore gamer.

 

Your whole "I only solo" argument is weak sauce.

 

It just happens, I only play one faction. Now I must roll a character on a different faction. That is so unfair and ridiculous, because I don't want to play on the other side.

 

See? Weak and lame.

 

I see you and others never address why people solo. Perhaps you are one of the people we just don't "want" to group with. I don't know, I don't know you. I just know that I nolonger wish to group in PUGs. So, I solo. I "extreem solo". I "group" with guildies and friends when I "group" but, SWTOR being the suck fest that it has become has chased off my regular crowd that I used to play with in this game and still play with in others. I haven't actively even play SWTOR since 1.4 because of issues detailed in other threads (hence my sig comment). When I can play again, I will most likely be soloing on Shadowlands (unless Jung Ma picks back up then I will be with some guildies there). For the most part one needs NEVER group in SWTOR to have fun. Which is why I think it is a mistake to give away the 1-50 content for free because there are going to be a lot of players that just do that and move on. But, that is another issue. Weak sauce, I hardly think so, blame your fellow players that bully, won't teach or mentor, ninja loot, and just plain use foul language all the time because they can't form a sentence without a swear word. It gets real old, real fast. I blame WoW actually, that was when the overall population profile changed.

[Urael]

Right here, shows you don't know what you're talking about. My Marauder + Vette DPS > My Sin + Healer. Those DPS numbers aren't balanced... I can just mitigate and heal through whatever the mobs can dish out to my Sin. Even on my Marauder, my performance is vastly improved if I use my healer. And since non-boss mobs don't enrage, there's no DPS balancing and if you can out-heal their damage, you win.

 

And your whole hunter analogy is still wrong. Comparing Hunters to Marauders is so fail. Marauders kite like Rogues did in WoW when the Rogue used rupture and then vanished and then stun-locked you as you are bleeding to death. Please use proper analogies. Seriously, the farther down the rabbit hole you go in your sort of pitiful defense of solo play the more laughable your arguments become.

 

Actually the green text proves my point as you said that is what essentually hunters do in wow; "out last" their oponents. And no, you are wrong, the solo encounters are balanced DPSwise for a character +companion. Otherwise there would be more solo pulls. Most pulls in SWTOR are group pulls. So the analogy is apt, even if you don't see it. I don't have any problem soloing at all with any class I play and I have one of everything for the most part (22 toons). Snipers are my favorite, then Ops (dps), then BH and TP (tank spec), then Ops (heal spec), then Sorc (heal spec), then Maras (right most tree), then Juggies. I solo just fine. I pretty much employ the base tactics I used as a hunter for the most part. I agree there is some variation to range vs. melee but, you still have to know when and were to engage your companion so for me the tactics are very similar to a hunter no matter what class you play. The time spent playing a hunter in WoW has value when playing SWTOR. Maybe this is why I find SWTOR soloing easy (I suspect it is really because overall this game is not challenging). *shrug*

[Lostpenguins]

Actually the green text proves my point as you said that is what essentually hunters do in wow; "out last" their oponents. :

 

Ugh... I just said "out heal". You're turning into "out last". That's like saying a prot pally in WoW plays like a hunter. Wrong. Prot Pally's and DK's can outheal the damage they receive and they don't play like Hunters. Stop using comparisons that are fail.

[Urael]

Ugh... I just said "out heal". You're turning into "out last". That's like saying a prot pally in WoW plays like a hunter. Wrong. Prot Pally's and DK's can outheal the damage they receive and they don't play like Hunters. Stop using comparisons that are fail.

 

Not apt since they don't use companions ( or use companions in the same way as hunters when it comes to DKs ). The point is every "player" in SWTOR is One Character + Once Compaion(pet) and playing a hunter is of value to tactics in SWTOR whether range or dps character. You have to admit that playing a hunter helps in playing SWTOR. The learning curves of how and when to use your companion more efficiently is reduced and your companion becomes even more valueable with this knowledge than just leaving it on "auto" all the time.

[Lostpenguins]

Not apt since they don't use companions ( or use companions in the same way as hunters when it comes to DKs ). The point is every "player" in SWTOR is One Character + Once Compaion(pet) and playing a hunter is of value to tactics in SWTOR whether range or dps character. You have to admit that playing a hunter helps in playing SWTOR. The learning curves of how and when to use your companion more efficiently is reduced and your companion becomes even more valueable with this knowledge than just leaving it on "auto" all the time.

lolwhat? On my Marauder I have my companion set to heal stance, and has his abilities auto-heal... he doesn't need all of this micromanaging. The most he does is hold some threat from healing aggro on mobs I haven't attacked yet.

 

You can say "playing a hunger helps in playing SWTOR" but playing a DK tank helps you play a sin tank so much better than a hunter did. Stop trying to stretch your point to give credence to your argument. Your hunter comparison is bad, face it. Hunters solo content by kiting mobs around and taking 0 damage. Extreme hunters were extreme when they fought mobs that 1-2 shot them. That's where hunters were skilled. If it took 15 minutes to kill a mob and they didn't get touched once. Good luck convincing me that a melee class can dps for 15 minutes with a companion w/out getting hit.

[mpdugas]

Well, as one who sees lots of value in an MMO beyond just 'grouping', I am perplexed by this decision. For instance, I enjoy a healthy player-economy. I like having people to ask questions of. I enjoy 'tossing a buff'; I always answer requests for help to do difficult quests.

 

I love playing this game as an on-line RPG. I am willing to subscribe to do that.

 

However, I do not have to group with other players to be successful at that.

 

Sadly, in order to enjoy the HK51, I have to group. I really don't want to. I think it is the notion that I am being forced to do something I really would rather have choice over is the issue

 

It seems to me that a decision should be aimed at pleasing the largest player population possible, if SWTOR is to survive. Excluding all of us who like to play SWTOR as an on-line RPG seems self-defeating. In fact, at this juncture in SWTOR's brief life, anything that excludes any part of their dwindling player population is irrational.

 

The effort necessary to acquire HK51 would be a perfect place for one of those "Heroic +1" quests that I suggested earlier.

 

However, there is a conceit present, an elitism, that says that only those who group to play deserve the best the game has to offer. That is very offensive.

 

Such a childish decision, and what a waste of a perfectly good game.

[Urael]

lolwhat? On my Marauder I have my companion set to heal stance, and has his abilities auto-heal... he doesn't need all of this micromanaging. The most he does is hold some threat from healing aggro on mobs I haven't attacked yet.

 

You can say "playing a hunger helps in playing SWTOR" but playing a DK tank helps you play a sin tank so much better than a hunter did. Stop trying to stretch your point to give credence to your argument. Your hunter comparison is bad, face it. Hunters solo content by kiting mobs around and taking 0 damage. Extreme hunters were extreme when they fought mobs that 1-2 shot them. That's where hunters were skilled. If it took 15 minutes to kill a mob and they didn't get touched once. Good luck convincing me that a melee class can dps for 15 minutes with a companion w/out getting hit.

 

Again you address your OWN ideas and never my common point that "pet management" is the same and "pet management" depending on the type of companion is important. If you play a hunter you are more than comfortable with pet management. Pet management is important even for a "healer" companion depending on the type of "character played". Sure in your Mara example auto is prolly best. But still you have to admit that you send in your companion "to tank" a mob or 3 why you deal with another. I know I do and I do just fine with that tactic on my mara using both vette and quin.

 

Even with the hunter extreem solo kiting you can learn some valuable lessons. Jump turn works just fine for some classes in swtor when kiting.

[Lostpenguins]

However, there is a conceit present, an elitism, that says that only those who group to play deserve the best the game has to offer. That is very offensive.

 

Such a childish decision, and what a waste of a perfectly good game.

No, it's childish reaction to buy a game clearly labeled as an MMO and then demand that something you want be given to you the way you want it just because you pay $15/month.

 

Tbh totally honest, if HK-51 was designed to be obtained via solo content, I could care less. Heck, the fact that a solo player can acquire all the gear I work for in an Operation, minus set bonuses, doesn't bother me either. It's not about being elite, it's about me shaking my head on where solo players feel they should get something via solo play when they bought an MMO. I don't care if you got this game because you love KOTOR. This isn't KOTOR. Pigeon-hole it all you want to be KOTOR, it isn't KOTOR. You can train a cat to take commands like a dog, but, in the end, it's still a cat.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Lostpenguins

[Lostpenguins]

Again you address your OWN ideas and never my common point that "pet management" is the same and "pet management" depending on the type of companion is important. If you play a hunter you are more than comfortable with pet management. Pet management is important even for a "healer" companion depending on the type of "character played". Sure in your Mara example auto is prolly best. But still you have to admit that you send in your companion "to tank" a mob or 3 why you deal with another. I know I do and I do just fine with that tactic on my mara using both vette and quin.

 

Even with the hunter extreem solo kiting you can learn some valuable lessons. Jump turn works just fine for some classes in swtor when kiting.

Having a companion is like having a pet in WoW, but that doesn't make you a hunter. Warlocks have pets in WoW... are they Hunters? No, they're Warlocks. So just because you have a pet doesn't mean you play like a hunter. A ranged dps with a ranged companion plays more like a Warlock with an Imp than it does like a Hunter with a pet. So, seriously, stop saying everyone in this game is like a Hunter in WoW.

[Soluss]

While strictly speaking this is true, we both know that is a weak sauce answer to the riddle.

 

Urael's point is valid..... the large majority of players don't use their companions once they get to level cap. Those that do use their companions regularly at level cap tend to both appreciate and enjoy solo challenges in game. HK therefore should be accessible through a solo challenge path in the quest system. It follows the spirit of what companions were designed to be and do in this game......COMPANIONS, not trophies for achievement.

 

Any proof to this claim that "the large majority of players dont use their companions once they get level cap"? Please show me proof, otherwise its just strawman, hyperbole, opinion or whatever else you run around these forums trying to tell other people they are doing.

 

Hypocracy at its finest.

[Soluss]

To duo a flashpoint with both players using companions, you'd still need to be very well geared.

 

As for people saying the hardmodes are easy... what gear are you running them in? Or did they make them drastically easier since I did one back in early spring?

The one I did back then (The Esseles HM), wasn't even remotely enjoyable while I enjoyed almost every storymode FP I've played (the exceptions being Colicoid Wargame and Mandalorian Raiders).

 

Trying to think back to when I first did false emp. I believe I had a mix of modded quest gear and the columni bracer from Black Talon. False Emp was my second hard mode so Im pretty sure that is what I had.

 

And yes, they have been nerfed a few times since early spring. They nerfed them quite a bit when they brought the group finder out.

[Soluss]

they didn't make them easy. what has happen is: One, people just got better geared. its easy to walk into an HM nowadays with tionese or higher gear levels.dailies make it even easier. no one really is walking into these runs with the blues that you and I started with back in the day.

 

Two: they all have run the HM's a dozen times each. people tend to forget how much familiarity with boss and mob tactics makes a run that much easier. and because 95% of the population has ran them 10x each, no one even bothers anymore to explain strats. which further compounds the issue for new players.

 

so no, they didn't make them easier. people have just outgeared and outplayed the HM's, and they forget that they have...

 

False, they were nerfed a few times. Secondly, I did those hardmodes in moded gear you got by doing solo dailies. You get even better modded gear with solo dailies now. Gear is not an excuse. Those instances were not designed for top end gear.

[Aidap]

Your analogy for the "real life" bit isn't very good. How did you earn that money? Did you make that money out of thin air? Or did you have to work with other people at a job to acquire the money? Did you build that car with your own 2 hands? Did you do the same with your house? Did you cut the tree down to make the wood to build your house? We're just arguing semantics, but in terms of "real life" there's nothing you do solely on your own ("No man is an island, Entire of itself.")

 

As for your description of other games, that's fine. You were able to obtain some of the gear the way you wanted to play: via solo play. Were you able to acquire all of the gear? Some things in MMO's require group effort, that is the nature of the beast. Arguing against MMO's requiring group effort to acquire all the content is really a wasted argument. You are arguing that a game built on the principles of group activity should be accessible on a solo level in every way is just as futile and pointless. You can state that you don't want everything accessible, but the moment you point to any one thing in this game and say you want that accessible via solo play, well, now you're redefining an MMO as a single player. This game was never advertised at that and you're sort of wasting your time demanding this game change to that style of genre.

 

I think the analogy is correct. There is a big difference between interacting with other players and being forced to do missions with them. My experience playing SWG pre-cu will serve as my analogy. In that game it was all about the community interacting with one another. If I wanted better armor, after I reached the appropriate level, I went out and gathered the materials needed to make the armor and then took it to an armorsmith and for a fee they made the armor for me, if I wanted to change my characters look, I went to an image designer and paid them for it. I didn't have to run a HM Flashpoint with the hope that the piece I wanted would drop. I earned my money doing missions or crafting, never did I have to group for anything. Perhaps it took me longer to get what I wanted, which is fine, but it was obtainable.

 

One of the major problems with this game, as I see it, is the lack of any real player crafting/economy. Every item is cookie cutter, crafting materials all hold the same stats, the mods have the same stats, etc. there is no uniqueness to it. As a consequence people are not invested in the game. Can you tell me who the best armorsmith or weaponsmith ( I know I am dating myself using those professions) is on your server? More than likely not because everyone of them is the same, once you get to 50 there is NO difference! I think an actual player run economy would do the community good. And no I don't count seeing how much someone will pay, for an item you looted, on the GTN as an economy. Having almost anything worthwhile come from drops just makes people greedy and agitated if someone screws up in a flashpoint or PVP. Personally I think the point of Flashpoints, Heroics and PVP should be that you were able to do it, not what can I get from doing it.

 

Why can't BW/EA let the players CRAFT the items players want. Interdependency of the classes would make the community stronger. I'm not talking about combat interdependency only. MMO's are NOT just about combat. As it stands now, it's just a race to 50, which I will agree is way to easy. Alot of players want to get to the endgame as fast as they can and in almost every instance they start to ***** that there is nothing to do and they are right, there really isn't much to do. Shouldn't of had the first 50's until 6 months after release. Yes we are playing an MMO, but to suggest that there is only one way to play one is absurd. Suggesting somehow that solo players don't deserve to get the same equipment because they don't want to group is equally absurd. Great content, in my opinion, isn't turning the difficulty level up to 11 (Yay! Spinal Tap!) that simply requires more players to complete. It's about making smarter, better players. Now that being said, I'm not saying that there should be no group content, of course there should be. But group content can be so much more than just killing things. Don't get me wrong I love killing things! Sorry I know I went off on a mini rant and some would say off on a tangent, but really this thread is about solo vs. group nothing more, nothing less.

Love it/Hate it, whatever.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Aidap
indentation

[Asavar]

Solo player?

 

This is an MMO.

 

good bye.

[Elyx]

False, they were nerfed a few times. Secondly, I did those hardmodes in moded gear you got by doing solo dailies. You get even better modded gear with solo dailies now. Gear is not an excuse. Those instances were not designed for top end gear.

 

You may be right on the nerf aspect, but i think you don't understand my original point...that being, people who find HM's easy now probably did not find them so easy early on. they get used to the runs and they get better gear and the HM's feel easier. at this point i could probably run an HM in just about anything because I know the mob pulls so well. but back when I didn't....it was tougher. also, if I'm equipped in rakata and BH gear, the run is going to be ALLOT easier then when im in blues and I have no clue how the instance will go. it's even worse if your new to grouping and how groups run nowadays (a.k.a. they simply expect you to "know" how they pull the groups...CC mobs...etc).

 

so i fail to understand your point. aside from the nerfing, that is. I simply don't know for sure, so I'm willing to go with that.

[Soluss]

You may be right on the nerf aspect, but i think you don't understand my original point...that being, people who find HM's easy now probably did not find them so easy early on. they get used to the runs and they get better gear and the HM's feel easier. at this point i could probably run an HM in just about anything because I know the mob pulls so well. but back when I didn't....it was tougher. also, if I'm equipped in rakata and BH gear, the run is going to be ALLOT easier then when im in blues and I have no clue how the instance will go. it's even worse if your new to grouping and how groups run nowadays (a.k.a. they simply expect you to "know" how they pull the groups...CC mobs...etc).

 

so i fail to understand your point. aside from the nerfing, that is. I simply don't know for sure, so I'm willing to go with that.

 

Yes, I understand what you are saying. Of course the more you do something, the easier it becomes. Of course the better gear you have, the easier it becomes. Thats just common sense. They are still relatively easy for anyone that is a grouper. Its just all basic common sense on how to do things and how things work. I would gather that a solo player, who has not grouped and done instances would find them hard. You have to start somewhere.

 

From what I have seen over the years, alot of solo players simply wont group because they are afraid of being bad. The second reason is they are afraid to run into *** holes. Dont be, there are alot of good people out there. There are alot of people that you would have fun with. I may come across as an *** on the forums but if you knew me in game, you would know that I was a fun person to group with. Most of my friends an I laugh our asses of over wiping. We find it funny when people make mistakes. We also help people out. All my game friends are like that.

 

Its pretty much just me atm, because most of my friends left and I havent logged in in quite some time. A few friends are comming back though so I may log in again. That being said..... Look me up. Id be happy to run all of you guys through these dungeons. Dont care about your AFKs. Dont care about lack of knowledge. If you are open to advice then Im happy to give it. Thats the type of person I am. The only thing I cant stand is people who arent doing it right, when you try to talk to them they get pissy. No reason to get pissy when you are just trying to help and give advice.

[AshlaBoga]

Everyone keeps saying "solo players cannot solo the HK-51 missions" well that's true and not true.

 

Why it currently cannot be done by a solo player:

SM FE? Soloable. [Did it on a Black Hole geared Jug with a Columi geared Quinn]

HM Foundry/Maelstrom Prison? Yeah, only viable way is to beat enrage timer - I wonder if a Mara with Quinn could it... (HM HK-47 hasn't been soloed to the best of my knowledge and HM Revan has only been soloed via a bug exploit that they fixed:()

 

Why it will be feasible via a solo player in the future:

Since Black Hole gear is tier 2.1, it is logical that once tier 2.3 gear is out (nightmare TfB) that Dread Guard comms will be added so people can grind for it. So solo players will eventually be able to grind for Dread Guard gear which is the only way to possibly solo HM Foundry (I haven't done HM MP so no comment).

Edited October 24, 2012 by AshlaBoga

[DarthDrachonus]

You haven't read the entirety of this thread I see. I will let you re-read to see the entirety of my view on this.

 

 

Actually, you're right I didn't read the entirety of the thread, and yet I do know your position on this. Just because HK-51 is a nod to HK-47 and the corresponding Knights of the Old Republic games, doesn't mean he should be solo achievable. You're gonna hafta come up with a better reason than just "The original games were single player, so he should be able to be attained solo", because this isn't a single player game. It's a MMO. Content meant to be experienced with others.

 

My reasoning has everything to do with the type of game The Old Republic is. Your reasoning is falling back on nostalgia. That simply doesn't work with a game set in a genre with the words "Massively Multiplayer Online" in it. MMORPGs are meant to be experienced with a group.

 

Just like the dude that can solo End of Torvix over in the black hole with his combination of Rakatas and Black Hole gears and 500 presence factor: Just because you're an outlier, doesn't make everyone else "weak sauce". No, I didn't take that comment seriously, I figured I'd include it to make a point though. Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean that's how it's meant to be.

 

Prime example (I know, it's an old game, oh well lol) is Everquest's Sleeper. He wasn't meant to be awakened, at least not for a VERY long time. One guild caught a glitch, and woke Kerafyrm up. The Game Masters covered it up (not really, but they tried), when they saw it leaked anyway, they patched the game, added in the Sleeper Awakens content, and set the dragon loose.

 

But that's a bit offtopic there, and I apologize for that. Fact remains, SW:TOR is in the MMORPG genre of games, it's great they're allowing the casual gamers to solo most of the stuff. It took me 10 years to get my epic weapons in Everquest because I'm a casual player, I just didn't have the time to sit and camp all that stuff, nor did I have the manpower (guild was always too busy, blah blah blah) to do it. So yeah, it's great they allow casual gamers to get somewhere, but items like the top armors/weapons, and a companion that isn't part of your storyline? Nah, that needs to remain group content because it's not a necessity.

[mpdugas]

No, it's childish reaction to buy a game clearly labeled as an MMO and then demand that something you want be given to you the way you want it just because you pay $15/month.

 

Tbh totally honest, if HK-51 was designed to be obtained via solo content, I could care less. Heck, the fact that a solo player can acquire all the gear I work for in an Operation, minus set bonuses, doesn't bother me either. It's not about being elite, it's about me shaking my head on where solo players feel they should get something via solo play when they bought an MMO. I don't care if you got this game because you love KOTOR. This isn't KOTOR. Pigeon-hole it all you want to be KOTOR, it isn't KOTOR. You can train a cat to take commands like a dog, but, in the end, it's still a cat.

 

Too bad you didn't read my post, huh?

 

Just because you SAY an MMO is predominantly a grouping-oriented game doesn't make it so, unless you think that sheer repetion of a mistaken idea makes it true somehow. That is your opinion, not a truth.

 

I have repeatedly given many reasons why I, as a solo player, enjoy many aspects of the MMO concept.

 

Please do not mischaracterize me; I have never demanded anything of Bioware; I have only asked, politely, that something be added to the game which will benefit all players.

 

Nor do I see where or how my request to add something to the game can be termed 'childish'.

 

It seems self-evident that something which benefits all players is a GOOD THING; that which only benefits a subset of the player base is less so.

 

P. S.

I have never played KOTOR or mentioned it in any of my posts, so I don't know where your thinking brought that idea to this discussion.

 

P. P .S.

Oh, btw, good luck with that "train a cat to take commands like a dog" thing!

Edited October 24, 2012 by mpdugas
left out material

[mpdugas]

Everyone keeps saying "solo players cannot solo the HK-51 missions" well that's true and not true.

 

Why it currently cannot be done by a solo player:

SM FE? Soloable. [Did it on a Black Hole geared Jug with a Columi geared Quinn]

HM Foundry/Maelstrom Prison? Yeah, only viable way is to beat enrage timer - I wonder if a Mara with Quinn could it... (HM HK-47 hasn't been soloed to the best of my knowledge and HM Revan has only been soloed via a bug exploit that they fixed:()

 

Why it will be feasible via a solo player in the future:

Since Black Hole gear is tier 2.1, it is logical that once tier 2.3 gear is out (nightmare TfB) that Dread Guard comms will be added so people can grind for it. So solo players will eventually be able to grind for Dread Guard gear which is the only way to possibly solo HM Foundry (I haven't done HM MP so no comment).

 

Isn't the gear you refer to unobtainable by a solo player?

[mpdugas]

Solo player?

 

This is an MMO.

 

good bye.

 

MMO > grouping.

[FFsimold]

Hi, I'm a solo player that doesn't use group finder. In fact, all of my game time is spent doing my own thing and ignoring all group/guild/chat invites other than general chat. I don't bother with Heroics. Flashpoints. Warzones or anything else that involves having to group up with people.

 

Have a nice day.

 

~S

 

the game is a mmo,and only soloing defeats the purpose of a mmo.If your that anti social then go play a single player rpg like kotor and kotor 2.both of which you can purchase for like 10 bucks off of steam.It's like going to a crowded night club and not interacting with other people.I'm gonna give you the benifit of the doubt maybe noone told you mmo means massive multiplayer online.The idea behind the genre is to socialize and play the game with other people.

[xandrietta]

I am willing to bet that most of these "solo" Players that do not want to participate in dungeons have all used the GTN.

 

Guess what, that is other player funded, so thats not really solo work, as other players post those items.

 

As I said before, "not available" and " I dont want to meet the requirments" are two totally different things.

Edited October 24, 2012 by xandrietta

[Soluss]

Isn't the gear you refer to unobtainable by a solo player?

 

no it isnt unobtainable by a solo player.