Respect Revan

[Castiel]

Don't bother dude, all they'll do is post some wookiepedia entry crap to counter you

[Aurbere]

I just wanted to pop in and ask this question: Does someone have to have amazing super-epic feats in order to be as awesome as Revan? You don't see Yoda "single-handedly taking out a space station full of Sith Lords and then taking* out the Dark Lord of the Sith" and yet we KNOW he would crush Revan.

 

Just a question that you would be hard-pressed to answer.

 

*And not in the nice first date kind of way

[MasterMe]

Aurbere, here is my complaint with the way you approach these arguments... You act as if there is a definitive answer to all of these theoretical matchups that you can somehow discern from canon when there simply isn't. A generalized statement that the PT-era Jedi Order or NJO order was the best does not mean anything when you are matching up INDIVIDUALS. What that statement means is the average Jedi of the Old Republic era is not as good as the average Jedi of the PT era. It does not mean that the most powerful Jedi of the Old Republic era is not as good as the third most powerful Jedi of the PT era. It just doesn't. I am so sick of people dismissing opinions they disagree with and acting as if canon backs up their statements when it doesn't. There is no canon on who would win a fight between Revan and whatever Jedi you want to trot out other than Luke and Sidious. Neither is their canon on whether Exar Kun could hold his own against whatever Jedi you want to mention other than the untouchables. You are entitled to your opinion, but so is everyone else. Quite frankly, the stuff we see Revan and the Exile do in-game is more impressive than just about anything in any of the movies. Hell, the Exile cut through multiple Sith Lords and Marauders on her way to Kreia, not to mention defeating two other Sith Lords who have power beyond anything we see in the movies. Revan cut down dozens of Sith on his way to Darth Malak and used powers we never saw in the movies. That doesn't mean he is better than the Jedi of the PT era, but it does mean people are entitled to the opinion that he is a ****** and can hold his own with anyone not named Luke or Sidious. Perhaps people wouldn't argue with you for dozens of pages of a thread if you would acknowledge that they are entitled to their opinion. Instead, you insist that anyone who disagrees with you is provably wrong when the entire mental exercise here is speculative. There is no canon on who would win these fights. You are entitled to your opinion, but unless your name is George Lucas, you are not the authority on these matters. So quit acting like you are.

 

^^^ This.

[MasterMe]

I just wanted to pop in and ask this question: Does someone have to have amazing super-epic feats in order to be as awesome as Revan? You don't see Yoda "single-handedly taking out a space station full of Sith Lords and then taking* out the Dark Lord of the Sith" and yet we KNOW he would crush Revan.

 

Just a question that you would be hard-pressed to answer.

 

*And not in the nice first date kind of way

 

Easy answer: No.

 

We do not KNOW that he would beat Revan. There has never been any canon comparing these people to each other. We do not KNOW. You could make a logical argument for why Yoda would beat Revan (and I think he would beat Revan) but there is NOTHING that ever says Yoda is better then Revan.

 

Quit displaying theories as canon.

 

Have you ever heard of a superlative? It's a word like always, never, best, or worst. You use way to many of these. You just shouldn't use such words in a debate in which there is NO definant answer.

[Aurbere]

Easy answer: No.

 

We do not KNOW that he would beat Revan. There has never been any canon comparing these people to each other. We do not KNOW. You could make a logical argument for why Yoda would beat Revan (and I think he would beat Revan) but there is NOTHING that ever says Yoda is better then Revan.

 

Quit displaying theories as canon.

 

Have you ever heard of a superlative? It's a word like always, never, best, or worst. You use way to many of these. You just shouldn't use such words in a debate in which there is NO definant answer.

 

There is an answer. By looking at the canon abilities of Yoda and Revan (in this case) we can see that Yoda own Revan.

 

Mastered all seven Lightsaber forms and mastered Ataru to its greatest extent.

Renowned user of Farsight and incredible precognitive abilities

Proficient Battle meditation

Tutaminis

Incredibly powerful Force Wave and Force Push

 

These are just a few of Yoda's many powerful abilities that he has learned over the centuries of being a Jedi. He has everything Revan has and more.

 

I do not use theories when debating canon. If I do use a theory, I will plainly say that it is a theory. THIS is not a thoery. It is fact, supported by canon.

[TalonVII]

are we still going through this...for the love of the force...just enough.

 

Stop the pissing contest over who's the best and greatest force user. Just a flaming contest anymore.

[MasterMe]

There is an answer. By looking at the canon abilities of Yoda and Revan (in this case) we can see that Yoda own Revan.

 

Mastered all seven Lightsaber forms and mastered Ataru to its greatest extent.

Renowned user of Farsight and incredible precognitive abilities

Proficient Battle meditation

Tutaminis

Incredibly powerful Force Wave and Force Push

 

These are just a few of Yoda's many powerful abilities that he has learned over the centuries of being a Jedi. He has everything Revan has and more.

 

I do not use theories when debating canon. If I do use a theory, I will plainly say that it is a theory. THIS is not a thoery. It is fact, supported by canon.

 

It is a theory SUPPORTED by canon. This does not make it canon. But whatever. I would agree that Yoda would beat Revan, but I would disagree that it's canon that he would do so. But whatever. Let's leave that alone.

[MasterMe]

are we still going through this...for the love of the force...just enough.

 

Stop the pissing contest over who's the best and greatest force user. Just a flaming contest anymore.

 

Best and greatest force user? Perhaps you're reading the wrong form.

[Makoto_Shishio]

Yes, I'm a fanboy. Get over it.

 

Alright, I've been reading posts for weeks concerning Revan, and I've heard so much BS I'm about to lose my mind.

 

You need some help. Really.

[RDeanOU]

Aurbere,

 

I think the point some would like you to understand is that you overvalue the Jedi of the PT era because the era itself has (on average) more powerful Jedi.

 

If I made the statement that the Minnesota Vikings of 1994 were better than the Detroit Lions of 1994, that would be supported by the facts. The Vikings won the division that year and the Lions didn't. If I extended that to say that Terry Allen was a much better running back than Barry Sanders because Allen was on the better team, every football expert in the world would laugh uncontrollably at what an imbecile I was. I think most would agree that Barry Sanders was the best player on either team that year. Just because he was on the inferior team doesn't mean he (as an individual player) was inferior to any player on the Vikings that year.

 

So extend this to the thread we are discussing. Ki Adi Mundi isn't necessarily superior to Revan. There is not canonical basis for that. He fought in an era that was on average superior. That doesn't say anything about how he individually matches up with Exar Kun, Darth Bane, or Marka Ragnos.

 

If you want to compare their individual achievements or abilities I think that is valid. Simply stating the era they were from and noting they were considered powerful in that era doesn't mean jack squat.

[BrandonSM]

Aurbere,

 

I think the point some would like you to understand is that you overvalue the Jedi of the PT era because the era itself has (on average) more powerful Jedi.

 

If I made the statement that the Minnesota Vikings of 1994 were better than the Detroit Lions of 1994, that would be supported by the facts. The Vikings won the division that year and the Lions didn't. If I extended that to say that Terry Allen was a much better running back than Barry Sanders because Allen was on the better team, every football expert in the world would laugh uncontrollably at what an imbecile I was. I think most would agree that Barry Sanders was the best player on either team that year. Just because he was on the inferior team doesn't mean he (as an individual player) was inferior to any player on the Vikings that year.

 

So extend this to the thread we are discussing. Ki Adi Mundi isn't necessarily superior to Revan. There is not canonical basis for that. He fought in an era that was on average superior. That doesn't say anything about how he individually matches up with Exar Kun, Darth Bane, or Marka Ragnos.

 

If you want to compare their individual achievements or abilities I think that is valid. Simply stating the era they were from and noting they were considered powerful in that era doesn't mean jack squat.

 

 

I agree.

 

Though I think MOST of the Prequel Jedi are more powerful than Jedi before them. But there are some that before them(Satele Shan, Revam, Hero of Tython and the Jedi Consular of TOR) that would beat some of the Prequel Jedi.

[MasterMe]

Aurbere,

 

I think the point some would like you to understand is that you overvalue the Jedi of the PT era because the era itself has (on average) more powerful Jedi.

 

If I made the statement that the Minnesota Vikings of 1994 were better than the Detroit Lions of 1994, that would be supported by the facts. The Vikings won the division that year and the Lions didn't. If I extended that to say that Terry Allen was a much better running back than Barry Sanders because Allen was on the better team, every football expert in the world would laugh uncontrollably at what an imbecile I was. I think most would agree that Barry Sanders was the best player on either team that year. Just because he was on the inferior team doesn't mean he (as an individual player) was inferior to any player on the Vikings that year.

 

So extend this to the thread we are discussing. Ki Adi Mundi isn't necessarily superior to Revan. There is not canonical basis for that. He fought in an era that was on average superior. That doesn't say anything about how he individually matches up with Exar Kun, Darth Bane, or Marka Ragnos.

 

If you want to compare their individual achievements or abilities I think that is valid. Simply stating the era they were from and noting they were considered powerful in that era doesn't mean jack squat.

 

Right on. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Good post.

[pbajnokl]

The lucasfilm planned to put Darth Bane AND Darth Revan in the ghost of mortys episode(clone wars), physical form of the force world or something like this place, WHERE they manipulate the dark side of the force boy... lucasfilm had to delete this because Revan didn't even turned back to the dark side in the sw:tor area and (i think) it would be an obvious spoiler from them. In george lucas ideas there was not even 1 jedi or a sith but these two who could do something like this, or planned to put in this "strong area" and in my opinion we will meet Revan in the clone wars and then a lot of question will be answered when this episode comes. Anakin/Obi/Yoda/Sidious or some one else will beat revan/bane of course the question is: HOW (and I think it will take an army of jedi or two army of clone troopers)

 

Btw some of u is talking about the clone wars area as the strongest area of the force...and in this area a bunch of clone troopers defeated the whole jedi council. In this area where there was only 2 sith and 2-3 dark jedi. In the old republic area the jedi had to defeat an amry of sith, not clones or droids... I think in the old republic area the weakest jedi could defeat anyone from the new republic area (except Sidious-he was the last descendant of Darth Revan's teachings- and Sidius never teached all of them to any one... not even to Vader.)

Edited October 22, 2012 by pbajnokl
correction

[SoonerJBD]

There is an answer. By looking at the canon abilities of Yoda and Revan (in this case) we can see that Yoda own Revan.

 

Mastered all seven Lightsaber forms and mastered Ataru to its greatest extent.

Renowned user of Farsight and incredible precognitive abilities

Proficient Battle meditation

Tutaminis

Incredibly powerful Force Wave and Force Push

 

These are just a few of Yoda's many powerful abilities that he has learned over the centuries of being a Jedi. He has everything Revan has and more.

 

I do not use theories when debating canon. If I do use a theory, I will plainly say that it is a theory. THIS is not a thoery. It is fact, supported by canon.

 

*Shaking my head*

 

You still don't get it. They aren't Pokemon. They aren't D&D characters where you look at a card and one beats the other. There are many cases in Star Wars lore where the supposed less powerful Jedi prevailed. The circumstances surrounding the battle often determine the outcome much more than someone's abilities on paper. Luke prevailed over Sidious in Return of the Jedi even though he was no match for him in one on one combat at the time. Why? Because of the story and circumstances in which they met.

 

I have no problem with you saying that you think Yoda would beat Revan in a one-on-one duel. But it is not fact. Your OPINION can be supported by canon. But STOP CALLING YOUR OPINION FACT. It is not fact that Yoda would own Revan or anyone else.

 

Using the football analogy again, this is like looking at statistics before a game and making a definitive statement about who would win. The Patriots were a 12-point favorite over the Giants in Super Bowl XLII. The Patriots were undefeated going in. The Giants were a 10-6 wildcard team that year and had lost to the Patriots earlier in the year. Looking at known achievements and abilities, you would clearly say the Patriots would win. But guess who won? The Patriots were rightly favored in the game, but it wasn't "fact" that they would win.

 

These are hypothetical matchups. You can say who you think would win, but it's an opinion. It can be an opinion supported by facts and canon, but it's still just an opinion.

[Aurbere]

*Shaking my head*

 

You still don't get it. They aren't Pokemon. They aren't D&D characters where you look at a card and one beats the other. There are many cases in Star Wars lore where the supposed less powerful Jedi prevailed. The circumstances surrounding the battle often determine the outcome much more than someone's abilities on paper. Luke prevailed over Sidious in Return of the Jedi even though he was no match for him in one on one combat at the time. Why? Because of the story and circumstances in which they met.

 

I have no problem with you saying that you think Yoda would beat Revan in a one-on-one duel. But it is not fact. Your OPINION can be supported by canon. But STOP CALLING YOUR OPINION FACT. It is not fact that Yoda would own Revan or anyone else.

 

Using the football analogy again, this is like looking at statistics before a game and making a definitive statement about who would win. The Patriots were a 12-point favorite over the Giants in Super Bowl XLII. The Patriots were undefeated going in. The Giants were a 10-6 wildcard team that year and had lost to the Patriots earlier in the year. Looking at known achievements and abilities, you would clearly say the Patriots would win. But guess who won? The Patriots were rightly favored in the game, but it wasn't "fact" that they would win.

 

These are hypothetical matchups. You can say who you think would win, but it's an opinion. It can be an opinion supported by facts and canon, but it's still just an opinion.

 

OK. So by your logic Tallisibeth Enwandung-Esterhazy would beat Revan. Even though "Scout" isn't really that powerful.

[BrandonSM]

*Shaking my head*

 

You still don't get it. They aren't Pokemon. They aren't D&D characters where you look at a card and one beats the other. There are many cases in Star Wars lore where the supposed less powerful Jedi prevailed. The circumstances surrounding the battle often determine the outcome much more than someone's abilities on paper. Luke prevailed over Sidious in Return of the Jedi even though he was no match for him in one on one combat at the time. Why? Because of the story and circumstances in which they met.

 

I have no problem with you saying that you think Yoda would beat Revan in a one-on-one duel. But it is not fact. Your OPINION can be supported by canon. But STOP CALLING YOUR OPINION FACT. It is not fact that Yoda would own Revan or anyone else.

 

Using the football analogy again, this is like looking at statistics before a game and making a definitive statement about who would win. The Patriots were a 12-point favorite over the Giants in Super Bowl XLII. The Patriots were undefeated going in. The Giants were a 10-6 wildcard team that year and had lost to the Patriots earlier in the year. Looking at known achievements and abilities, you would clearly say the Patriots would win. But guess who won? The Patriots were rightly favored in the game, but it wasn't "fact" that they would win.

 

These are hypothetical matchups. You can say who you think would win, but it's an opinion. It can be an opinion supported by facts and canon, but it's still just an opinion.

 

 

If were talking both of them in their Prime then it isn't like what your saying its like the Pokemon Game. Because that means its them vs eachother in their best days. So their wouldn't be the bad day argument.

[Liquidacid]

*Shaking my head*

 

You still don't get it. They aren't Pokemon. They aren't D&D characters where you look at a card and one beats the other. There are many cases in Star Wars lore where the supposed less powerful Jedi prevailed. The circumstances surrounding the battle often determine the outcome much more than someone's abilities on paper. Luke prevailed over Sidious in Return of the Jedi even though he was no match for him in one on one combat at the time. Why? Because of the story and circumstances in which they met.

 

I have no problem with you saying that you think Yoda would beat Revan in a one-on-one duel. But it is not fact. Your OPINION can be supported by canon. But STOP CALLING YOUR OPINION FACT. It is not fact that Yoda would own Revan or anyone else.

 

Using the football analogy again, this is like looking at statistics before a game and making a definitive statement about who would win. The Patriots were a 12-point favorite over the Giants in Super Bowl XLII. The Patriots were undefeated going in. The Giants were a 10-6 wildcard team that year and had lost to the Patriots earlier in the year. Looking at known achievements and abilities, you would clearly say the Patriots would win. But guess who won? The Patriots were rightly favored in the game, but it wasn't "fact" that they would win.

 

These are hypothetical matchups. You can say who you think would win, but it's an opinion. It can be an opinion supported by facts and canon, but it's still just an opinion.

 

invalid because this is the internet... in this magical realm facts don't matter... we run purely on biased opinions, anecdotal evidence and funny cat pictures

[MasterMe]

OK. So by your logic Tallisibeth Enwandung-Esterhazy would beat Revan. Even though "Scout" isn't really that powerful.

 

You twist his words. All his logic says (and mine) is that is isn't FACT that Yoda would beat Revan. Also, it isn't FACT that Revan would beat Scout.

 

You need to understand that there's a great argument for either side beating the other (being Yoda and Revan).

 

Once again, I would agree with you that Yoda would beat Revan. But that isn't canon.

 

And it doesn't bother me too much when you say things like "Ki-Adi-Mundii would win and that's canon." It REALLY bothers me when you say that Ki-Adi-Mundi would CANONICALLY wipe the floor with Revan.

 

But whatever. I've said this a million times already and seeing as how you just don't understand, I'll stop. That is, of course, unless you say someting else to really get me going.

[MasterMe]

invalid because this is the internet... In this magical realm facts don't matter... We run purely on biased opinions, anecdotal evidence and funny cat pictures

 

lol yes!!!

[SoonerJBD]

OK. So by your logic Tallisibeth Enwandung-Esterhazy would beat Revan. Even though "Scout" isn't really that powerful.

 

No, that's not what I'm saying. You can determine which one is the favorite. You can observe that it would be awfully hard for a Padawan considered weak in the force to defeat a Jedi Master. You can cite all the things Revan has done to suggest he would beat her. The further the disparity between the training and abilities of the two, the more unlikely the underdog would win.

 

To take the football scenario further, while the Patriots were a 12-point favorite over the Giants, they would be a much larger favorite over a high school team, with their chances of losing falling to ridiculously low levels.

 

When you are comparing powerful Jedi Masters and Sith Lords to one another, you are effectively handicapping NFL games. When you are comparing someone like Yoda to a young Padawan, you are comparing NFL teams to high school teams.

 

For what it's worth, I would suggest Yoda would be favored in a duel with Revan. But I don't accept it as fact that Yoda could never lose such a duel. Because they are both powerful and the matchup is a hypothetical.

[MasterMe]

No, that's not what I'm saying. You can determine which one is the favorite. You can observe that it would be awfully hard for a Padawan considered weak in the force to defeat a Jedi Master. You can cite all the things Revan has done to suggest he would beat her. The further the disparity between the training and abilities of the two, the more unlikely the underdog would win.

 

To take the football scenario further, while the Patriots were a 12-point favorite over the Giants, they would be a much larger favorite over a high school team, with their chances of losing falling to ridiculously low levels.

 

When you are comparing powerful Jedi Masters and Sith Lords to one another, you are effectively handicapping NFL games. When you are comparing someone like Yoda to a young Padawan, you are comparing NFL teams to high school teams.

 

For what it's worth, I would suggest Yoda would be favored in a duel with Revan. But I don't accept it as fact that Yoda could never lose such a duel. Because they are both powerful and the matchup is a hypothetical.

 

bingo^^

[Aurbere]

You twist his words. All his logic says (and mine) is that is isn't FACT that Yoda would beat Revan. Also, it isn't FACT that Revan would beat Scout.

 

You need to understand that there's a great argument for either side beating the other (being Yoda and Revan).

 

Once again, I would agree with you that Yoda would beat Revan. But that isn't canon.

 

And it doesn't bother me too much when you say things like "Ki-Adi-Mundii would win and that's canon." It REALLY bothers me when you say that Ki-Adi-Mundi would CANONICALLY wipe the floor with Revan.

 

But whatever. I've said this a million times already and seeing as how you just don't understand, I'll stop. That is, of course, unless you say someting else to really get me going.

 

I'm going to ignore the tone you were speaking in...

 

Maybe I came off too strongly so let me get my actual point across. Through comparison of Yoda or Mundi's abilities to Revan's abilities, I have come to the conclusion that Revan would lose. I'm not talking semantics here, I'm talking about their canon abilities. Yes, Revan has done great things with his abilities, but in the words of Yoda "Wars not make one great." Just because you can slaughter your enemies, does not make you better than someone else. which is not what you have been saying, but I'm just putting it out there.

 

Maybe I shouldn't have stated it as fact, but to tell the truth, these Revan debates really annoy me. But I will say that comparing prime Revan versus Prime Yoda or Prime Mundi, the edge lies with Yoda and Mundi. Now that isn't to say that Revan doesn't have a chance. Revan's real, and probably only, advantage here is his ability to hide his presence in the Force, which would allow a sneak attack. This does not guarantee himself victory as both Yoda and Mundi have ways of countering such an attack. Yoda has some of the greatest precognitive and Farsight abilities ever seen, and Mundi has advanced (even for a Jedi) reflexes. Which is one of the reasons he was able to defend himself for a short time against the clones.

 

Was that a good enough analysis for you? I'm trying to form a bridge between us so we can find a compromise.

[Castiel]

No, that's not what I'm saying. You can determine which one is the favorite. You can observe that it would be awfully hard for a Padawan considered weak in the force to defeat a Jedi Master. You can cite all the things Revan has done to suggest he would beat her. The further the disparity between the training and abilities of the two, the more unlikely the underdog would win.

 

To take the football scenario further, while the Patriots were a 12-point favorite over the Giants, they would be a much larger favorite over a high school team, with their chances of losing falling to ridiculously low levels.

 

When you are comparing powerful Jedi Masters and Sith Lords to one another, you are effectively handicapping NFL games. When you are comparing someone like Yoda to a young Padawan, you are comparing NFL teams to high school teams.

 

For what it's worth, I would suggest Yoda would be favored in a duel with Revan. But I don't accept it as fact that Yoda could never lose such a duel. Because they are both powerful and the matchup is a hypothetical.

 

I love your sound logic and resonating abilities ^^ Other people on this forum should accept this and stop spitting "ITS CANON LOLLOLTROLL" all the time, it gets REALLY boring...

[MasterMe]

I'm going to ignore the tone you were speaking in...

 

Maybe I came off too strongly so let me get my actual point across. Through comparison of Yoda or Mundi's abilities to Revan's abilities, I have come to the conclusion that Revan would lose. I'm not talking semantics here, I'm talking about their canon abilities. Yes, Revan has done great things with his abilities, but in the words of Yoda "Wars not make one great." Just because you can slaughter your enemies, does not make you better than someone else. which is not what you have been saying, but I'm just putting it out there.

 

Maybe I shouldn't have stated it as fact, but to tell the truth, these Revan debates really annoy me. But I will say that comparing prime Revan versus Prime Yoda or Prime Mundi, the edge lies with Yoda and Mundi. Now that isn't to say that Revan doesn't have a chance. Revan's real, and probably only, advantage here is his ability to hide his presence in the Force, which would allow a sneak attack. This does not guarantee himself victory as both Yoda and Mundi have ways of countering such an attack. Yoda has some of the greatest precognitive and Farsight abilities ever seen, and Mundi has advanced (even for a Jedi) reflexes. Which is one of the reasons he was able to defend himself for a short time against the clones.

 

Was that a good enough analysis for you? I'm trying to form a bridge between us so we can find a compromise.

 

I guess that works. This post of yours is much more modest than then your other ones on this forum and I find no need to argue with it. Altough I highly doubt we'll ever come to a full agreement when it comes to Revan and his powers, I feel you understand where I'm coming from.

[Aurbere]

I guess that works. This post of yours is much more modest than then your other ones on this forum and I find no need to argue with it. Altough I highly doubt we'll ever come to a full agreement when it comes to Revan and his powers, I feel you understand where I'm coming from.

 

Probably. And I do understand where you are coming from. I used to be a HUGE Revan fanboy. Much bigger than you. And my brother is still a Revan fanboy. So I understand and relate to your argument. One of the reasons I was so aggressive was because I have been in so many Revan debates that I had gotten kinda annoyed. Which lead to my blunt posts. Sorry if I came off as rude or anything. If anymore discussions on Revan come up, I'll do my best to post modestly.

 

I think I can step out of this thread with a clear head now lol.