Warzones = Slot Machine

[TridusSWTOR]

Wait right here... seriously... I'll be RIGHT back...

 

Speaking of points flying over head... I give you exhibit A.

 

My point is there is a ton of evidence out there... floating around the internets to disprove what you're claiming yet ZERO evidence to prove that it DOES happen.

 

Just for the sake of argument (Which I'm enjoying BTW) before 1.4 and MK2 recruit armor. How much HP does a sorc/sage have in recruit gear? Which I'm pretty sure we all agree is the squishiest class. Approx a hair over 13K I believe. And that's IF someone is bad enough to not stack coms and be in FULL recruit gear. That would mean that a warrior would have to smash them twice in a row with an average over 6.5K smashes... Pretty damn unlikely. I'd say 1 in a million odds to hit them that hard twice in a row. Not enough to argue it...

 

You have a better chance of winning the lottery or being struck by lighting.

 

At least you admit you don't want to do the legwork.

 

I guess my point still stands, my friend can smash kill someone. Usually it's 7k or 8k on a recruit and then maybe 5-6k on the next smash...that's being generous. I guess there is zero evidence because you didn't witness it, so it's just easier to call anyone who disagrees with you a liar.

 

Ladies and Gents, I'm glad to have to wrapped up this little "Debate" and getting to the source of the truth. The blind(the person I quoted) will be blind because they choose to be. How can you have a discussion with someone when they claim everything you say is a lie. Unlike him, I never called him a liar and I never said there wasn't any bad juggs that can't smash kill a recruit geared person in two hits. I'm sure it doesn't happen all the time but the the fact that it can...well that just proves my point.

 

Like I said, the pattern has come full circle. In the end the best this poster can provide is insults, I dare say even a child has a more reasonable thought process. I guess my only advice to the person I quoted, reread what you said, because it's being held together by strings.

 

Alright, I guess I'll wait for the next insult filled response or just claiming I'm liar again. It's a 50/50 response at this point.

 

Still waiting on those video's...I think you said 100 or so.

[UGLYMRJ]

At least you admit you don't want to do the legwork.

 

I guess my point still stands, my friend can smash kill someone. Usually it's 7k or 8k on a recruit and then maybe 5-6k on the next smash...that's being generous. I guess there is zero evidence because you didn't witness it, so it's just easier to call anyone who disagrees with you a liar.

 

Ladies and Gents, I'm glad to have to wrapped up this little "Debate" and getting to the source of the truth. The blind(the person I quoted) will be blind because they choose to be. How can you have a discussion with someone when they claim everything you say is a lie. Unlike him, I never called him a liar and I never said there wasn't any bad juggs that can't smash kill a recruit geared person in two hits. I'm sure it doesn't happen all the time but the the fact that it can...well that just proves my point.

 

Like I said, the pattern has come full circle. In the end the best this poster can provide is insults, I dare say even a child has a more reasonable thought process. I guess my only advice to the person I quoted, reread what you said, because it's being held together by strings.

 

Alright, I guess I'll wait for the next insult filled response or just claiming I'm liar again. It's a 50/50 response at this point.

 

Still waiting on those video's...I think you said 100 or so.

 

It's so cute how proud of yourself you are... like an infant that went potty in the toilet for the first time. I could squeeze your pudgy little cheeks right now!

 

Proud of what I'm not sure but it's adorable either way.

Edited October 3, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[PakaOno]

If you are serious about PvP and your first char just hit 50, then I can sympathize a bit. It's tough gearing, however you should still have 3500rwz/2000wz comms when you hit 50.

 

If this is an alt, then you have no excuse to not have at least 2 pieces of WH (should be 4-5 pieces) as well as having 3500 rwz/2000wz comms. That way you can have your WH MH and BM OH waiting for you.

[TridusSWTOR]

It's so cute how proud of yourself you are... like an infant that went potty in the toilet for the first time. I could squeeze your pudgy little cheeks right now!

 

Proud of what I'm not sure but it's adorable either way.

 

Thanks for proving me right though.

[Mancer]

Did nobody see the stuff about Bigfoot? Way more important than a jug smash.

 

 

Edit: Time to go home, work is over!

Edited October 3, 2012 by Mancer

[UGLYMRJ]

Did nobody see the stuff about Bigfoot? Way more important than a jug smash.

 

 

Edit: Time to go home, work is over!

 

About as believable too...

 

You lucky SOB!!!

[UGLYMRJ]

Thanks for proving me right though.

 

I'm just over it... it's a waste of time. We're BOTH very sure of what we know. My point is only that it's damn near impossible unless some moron is wearing less than recruit gear AND even then a BIS warrior would have to get lucky with the smashes on a light armor character who is very under geared. It's so improbable that I don't see the point of shedding light on it even if it did happen.

 

The best part about this is it was originally about why teams win and lose... I actually forgot. Somehow it got twisted into magical 8K smashes.

 

All the more reason I'm over it.

Edited October 3, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[SOULCASTER]

You for got to add...

- Full team of 8 vs Team of 6 or 7 permanently down a man for 90% of the match

 

...to your list of slot machine outcomes.

[SyphonSith]

Is it just me or did they just release new recruit gear with better stats, mk 2? Yet, here we are again.

 

Pretty much in order to satisfy is to just hand out full sets of War Hero and say screw all those that grinded for it, I've done the grind for two toons already that didn't even hit 50 until after 1.2 both min/max.

 

I'd have to say it's not a gear issue, more or less Warzone's with stacked classes, or full of idiots in PvE gear. Almost every time I que solo now there is one person in full PvE gear, and a couple others in recruit. None the less you get those that are in full WH and are completely useless.

 

I think the major issue is allowing people to que in PvE gear, also just plain out people that are bad. I've been in plenty of fail premades and good ones. There should be no reason why a group of friends can't enjoy the same Warzone.

Edited October 3, 2012 by SyphonSith

[Blasphemerr]

... anyone who would die to two smashes would be dead before the second smash is set up & ready.

[salaryman]

You for got to add...

- Full team of 8 vs Team of 6 or 7 permanently down a man for 90% of the match

 

...to your list of slot machine outcomes.

 

I deliberately excluded that and the many other problems with PVP because I thought they'd cloud the issue even more. I agree 100% with you though, and that's been my experience too: as soon as people on the losing team see the differences in gear they start quitting--which just makes it that much more lopsided. And as someone who's on the winning side of things too, it's boring as hell to queue up for a WZ just to have the other team start quitting to the point they have 5 or less players and the match ends (automatic win).

[salaryman]

Pretty much in order to satisfy is to just hand out full sets of War Hero and say screw all those that grinded for it, I've done the grind for two toons already that didn't even hit 50 until after 1.2 both min/max.

 

"I did the incredibly long boring grind, so everyone else should too" is not a valid argument. If anything it just proves my point: if it feels like a grind, then it's broken. BW can fix it, or they can watch as players quit and move on to other games with less or no grind.

[SyphonSith]

"I did the incredibly long boring grind, so everyone else should too" is not a valid argument. If anything it just proves my point: if it feels like a grind, then it's broken. BW can fix it, or they can watch as players quit and move on to other games with less or no grind.

 

It wasn't my intention's to use that as a valid argument, The grind is not so bad if you enjoy the PvP. And like others have stated, BM gear plus augments is by far a grind. The point is, why shouldn't the ones that did grind for it and put the time in deserve the slight stat increase. Not get screwed by others just getting it handed to them.

 

And far as I can see they are making improvements to the gear gap, hence slightly better recruit gear, no longer needing BM to trade for WH, easier dailies, augment kits, and the stat increase for Elite is a joke. So I ask, what more can then do other than just give everyone War Hero and screw the rest that worked for that slight advantage?

 

Like I've stated before, I think the problem is not with the gear.

Edited October 3, 2012 by SyphonSith

[WaywardOne]

... anyone who would die to two smashes would be dead before the second smash is set up & ready.

 

Exactly - I'm pretty sure that it still takes 10+ seconds to line up two good smashes. Lots of WH geared characters can drop a fresh recruit faster than that with or without "smash".

[Paulman]

Honestly the gear discrepancy isn't that bad. It has more to do with the augments and cost. Once you get battle master and augment it you'll be pretty competitive. People generally don't augment recruit gear because it doesn't take long to replace it. But the bright side is that it doesn't take long to replace.

 

I see some people in battlemaster not augmenting it and they really should. You'll be in it for awhile. It's worth it.

 

 

As far as match making, they could do something to make it more balanced. They maybe if the had a hidden individualand group rating and they matched players against similar rating.

[Tyrias]

I can't help but feel that in between all this bickering about WH Geared characters being able to, or not being able to pull of certain feats of prowess and awesomeness, it seems to have been lost that despite the perhaps poor choice of reasoning, the actual issue raised in the OP still is quite valid.

 

Obviously, a match isn't solely decided when there are more than 4 augmented WH players on one side, and frequently no more than 2-3 on the other, as regularly happens. While this may have a fair impact on the outcome of the game, it's also the fact that premades almost always have better communication or better knowledge of each other and so work together better without even needing the communication.

 

It's the combination of better gear AND better teamwork that make a Pre-made vs an 8-man PUGs group so one-sided, which is what causes so much distress amongst those newer or still gearing.

 

I don't think that reducing the gap between gear is right (it'll cause too many complaints, and when people actually are matched well, it's not an issue), nor do I think that matching solely on gear is a very good answer, as it is no REAL indicator of ability or usefulness within the warzone.

 

Of course, I don't know what the holy grail of an answer is because every "simple fix" I've read on the forums also has a negative impact somewhere else down the line:

• You can't match with gear, because pre-made vs PUG will still be an issue (especially if you subscribe to the Teamwork>Gear line of thought) due to having teams with Communications vs teams without.
  
• You can't match with Valor, because some people are on alts and have more in-game experience/legacy gear.
  
• You can't match on Expertise, because you could choose to gear to hit the top end of the low braket with high-end PvE mods.
  
• You can't separate Solo and Premades, because some people are just RL/Guild mates that don't belong in a skill bracket with genuine pre-mades.
  

You can't even REALLY match on individual ranking (if it existed), because like it or not, some classes are just better designed for PvP, and so top end brackets would be filled predominantly with 4-5 classes, and the low end brakets would be filled mostly with the other 3-4.... although at least that would be a better highlight to class imbalance than the "metrics" that things currently seem to be based on.

 

BW are really screwed whatever they do

Edited October 3, 2012 by Tyrias

[vimm]

Slot machines are very popular and bring in a lot of money!

[Monterone]

1. Remove recruit gear.

2. Hand out a free BM set of choice at 50.

3. Cap all WH gear at 1500 ranked comms.

 

You just made PvP much more enjoyable for loads of people. Also we can now gear alts and enjoy them at a competitive level.

[Antipodes]

PUGs, by nature, are slot machines. Even in games without gear.

[Mancer]

PUGs, by nature, are slot machines. Even in games without gear.

 

I think we can leave it at this^^ and walk away.

[HammerHermann]

Team work > gear in war zones

 

Gear is not your problem...

 

That merc that shoots down into the pit while standing on the edge of the goal area.... HE IS YOUR PROBLEM.

 

That keyboard turning, mouse clicking guy that plays in 1st person because it feels like Skyrim with light sabers... HE IS YOUR PROBLEM.

 

That guy that shows up in columi gear because he wanted the 360K credits... HE IS YOUR PROBLEM.

 

That marauder that is no where near an objective and scouts for 1v1 fights.... HE IS YOUR PROBLEM.

 

The sorcerer who is spec'd heals but spends the entire game camping the one owned node casting consumption and healing himself... HE IS YOUR PROBLEM.

 

The assassin who spawns in from start and finds somewhere to cloak and hide to farm coms putting you in 7v8 fight... HE IS YOUR PROBLEM.

 

Sometimes these guys are on your team... sometimes they're on the other team.

 

I play A LOT of regular war zones... and yes, it sucks to go against BIS opponents while wearing half recruit gear. It's going to be a long few days.

 

My point is... if you put these bad players in BIS gear and put a competent team against them and put them in full recruit. You'll see very quickly that gear is not why you're getting rolled.

 

Couldn't agree more. I've always liked the way it is. Those that grind PvP hard reap the rewards and every once in awhile you get to pick on the new guy. But if they change it to allow the stat difference to not vary so much from geared to fresh 50's then I'm cool with that too because there is still gonna be bad players in PvP. Geared or not it doesn't change how they play.

[Spoletta]

The fix is not easy, but maybe something like this could be done:

 

Don't make wzs start as soon as they reach the number of necessary players, wait for 3 times that number then start the 3 warzones sorting people by role.

When i see a wz with 4 healers i leave (i'm healer), if i stay there we are doomed to lose, by leaving i'm actually helping my team. If all warzones had a balanced number of roles it would be much less of a slot machine.

Premade and gear issue is still there, but at least we take out the biggest problem.

 

P.S. And no this would not triple wz queue times, they would get longer by about 6-7%. Totally worth it in my opinion.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Spoletta

[Mayeh]

I am in full augmented WH but I pug about 95% of the time. What does that make me (aside from a masochist)?

[cycao]

I am in full augmented WH but I pug about 95% of the time. What does that make me (aside from a masochist)?

 

A god damm liar thats what.

[Mayeh]

A god damm liar thats what.

Takes time but it is possible. But you really have to put up with a lot of /headdesksmash moments. Thus the masochist comment.