What would it take? (a TOR restoration discussion)

[Kltpxyzm]

Current Discussions:

 

Largest Issues and possible solutions:

Dev - Player Communication

Patch 1.4 revisions

- undo all of or parts of patch 1.4, fix errors and rerelease

PVP/End Level Experience

- Rotation on pvp/end level content

Quality Assurance

- Longer periods of bug fixing before release

- more use of the public test server

 

Smaller Issues and possible solutions:

Additional Smaller content

- PVP Pazaac

- PVP Racing

- gambling

- Distinct Armor - True armor forging/customization

 

 

I log onto these forums every single day and I see one of three thread types; a thread that thanks BioWare for TOR and a thread that rips BioWare a new one, and "I deserve entitlements so I'm unsubbing!" threads. To be fair, a person's subscription is their own business and some people raise valid issues, and other threads that praise/hate TOR are well written (some; not all).

 

Everybody seems to have an opinion about why TOR is losing subs and their own solution, so why, in a forum community that proves itself to have capable and reasonable people, do we not talk about as a group what it would take for TOR to start winning back subscribers?

 

Finally, feel free to post if you have something to say, but keep it civil.

 

Edit: Since the start of this thread I've changed my opinion: Player to Development communication is pretty abysmal. However, this is probably one of the hardest things to correct.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Kltpxyzm

[Foofie]

Well,

People post in the suggestion box. I see great posts throughout these forums with great ways to to make the game more successful.

 

Now, granted, a lot of these are suggestion of game play issues. and that is pretty much what we are the masters of. Playing the game and suggestion things to make the game we play more fun, hence more successful..

 

Are you suggesting a separate forum for this?

 

Again, I think the suggestion forums are a good place to start.

[Goretzu]

But why aren't there that many threads (or any at all) that talk about what TOR has to change to become successful?

 

 

There have been, literally, 100's of them.

[Kltpxyzm]

Things too keep in mind:

 

1. Present Issues vs Past Issues - Unless it's something that was implemented in the past and is still an issue, you can afford not to include it. For example, the larger numbers of servers was a long standing problem. The fact that TOR is an MMO instead of KotOR 3 is not.

 

2. Think of solutions instead of just problems - If you don't like something about the game think about a solution before you rail off on it. Let's say you hate a the Warzone queue, for example. Don't just say it's broken and needs fixing. Why is it broken? How do you think it could be fixed? At the very least say that you're not certain how to fix it and invite other people to speculate on it.

 

3. Constructive criticism =/= Flaming. The point is to find working solutions; not discredit others. If somebody suggests a fix that you don't think would work talk about it sensibly. If you must argue about it, the forums have a PM system so that the thread can stay clean.

 

4. Reference other threads for support. If you see something in the suggestion box you like feel free to link it for more input. We're a community; why not take advantage of it?

 

Finally:

 

5. Ideas are a dime a dozen, but usable solutions are gold. I know I've brought this up, but I really can't stress it enough. Just saying the graphics are choppy and need to be fixed is one thing, but saying that the Shadow rendering system (example) is too complicated and is causing lesser processors to struggle is more useful. Even better would be to say that an easier way to process shadows would be to (your solution here).

[Kltpxyzm]

Well,

People post in the suggestion box. I see great posts throughout these forums with great ways to to make the game more successful.

 

Now, granted, a lot of these are suggestion of game play issues. and that is pretty much what we are the masters of. Playing the game and suggestion things to make the game we play more fun, hence more successful..

 

Are you suggesting a separate forum for this?

 

Again, I think the suggestion forums are a good place to start.

 

I'm suggesting a thread where we talk about larger problems in general rather than one at a time. Rather than just suggesting what we want I think we could get more done as a community by talking about what would and would not work.

[Foofie]

I'm suggesting a thread where we talk about larger problems in general rather than one at a time. Rather than just suggesting what we want I think we could get more done as a community by talking about what would and would not work.

 

Larger problems in what way?

 

Player subscriptions?

 

Marketing techniques?

Special SWTOR outside events to draw people?

 

I am not being a wise guy.Just asking.

[arunav]

 

Everybody seems to have an opinion about why TOR is losing subs and their own solution, so why, in a forum community that proves itself to have capable and reasonable people, do we not talk about as a group what it would take for TOR to start winning back subscribers?

 

Finally, feel free to post if you have something to say, but keep it civil.

 

Personally, I think because TOR's fate has already been decided top-down. We are only here as customers until we've decided it's no longer worth the time to log in. I imagine, if 1.4's problems aren't fixed in a timely manner, there will be a further proportion of the player-base that will leave:

 

http://www.swtor-life.com/editorial/top-5-reasons-why-swtor-failed/7143/

 

It's been clear for some time now the approach to TOR has taken a turn. Many of us have assumed it's due to the F2P transition. This may be correct, but the latest patch speaks volumes for what has happened at BioWare. It has more bugs and problems in it than all previous releases combined.

Edited September 28, 2012 by arunav

[Kltpxyzm]

Larger problems in what way?

 

Player subscriptions?

 

Marketing techniques?

Special SWTOR outside events to draw people?

 

I am not being a wise guy.Just asking.

 

All of those things, and/or whatever you think that is causing TOR to suffer. For example, If you that Marketing Techniques were a massive problem then you could bring that up, and people could discuss different marketing techniques that could improve on what's currently being done.

 

For another example, I think that TOR is currently losing the majority of it's fans because of the number of bugs and the game's unreliable game-play, so my solution would be that the devs commit patch 1.5 to identifying issues such as server lag, random crashes, and hardware compatibility and then use the public test server to test out different solutions. However, I'm not very knowledgeable about such things, so I heartily invite others to comment on specific ways to make that happen.

 

EDITED TO AVOID DOUBLE POST:

 

Personally, I think because TOR's fate has already been decided top-down. We are only here as customers until we've decided it's no longer worth the time to log in. I imagine, if 1.4's problems aren't fixed in a timely manner, there will be a further proportion of the player-base that will leave:

 

http://www.swtor-life.com/editorial/top-5-reasons-why-swtor-failed/7143/

 

It's been clear for some time now the approach to TOR has taken a turn. Many of us have assumed it's due to the F2P transition. This may be correct, but the latest patch speaks volumes for what has happened at BioWare. It has more bugs and problems in it than all previous releases combined.

 

So what are your suggestions to keep TOR going? From your post it looks like you're specifically addressing issues in the 1.4 patch. Do you have any particular issue in the patch you'd like to start with?

 

Also, I try to be direct but I'm bad at it. If I come off as accusing or something I apologize.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Kltpxyzm

[arunav]

 

So what are your suggestions to keep TOR going? From your post it looks like you're specifically addressing issues in the 1.4 patch. Do you have any particular issue in the patch you'd like to start with?

 

 

It seems as though you did not read the link. I am providing it here again. It is not about 1.4, but rather why SWTOR is in the state it is in, and what may have led to this at BioWare.

 

http://www.swtor-life.com/editorial/...r-failed/7143/

 

As for 1.4, I'd like to see it rolled back and the new operation released on its own. The remaining features can be introduced with time, as none I believe were urgently needed against the problems caused by the patch.

Edited September 28, 2012 by arunav

[SNCommand]

As for 1.4, I'd like to see it rolled back and the new operation released on its own. The remaining features can be introduced with time, as none I believe were urgently needed against the problems caused by the patch.

Dear god no, the issues are few and small enough to make that a mistake, I don't get where people are getting this idea that this patch is littered with game breaking bugs, been playing almost 24/7 since Tuesday and have seen nothing except for the flickering chat box when typing

[kcol]

The larger problem seems to be that players suggestions go unanswered and that communication is nonexistent between the Dev's and player base. Also with communication, most requests aren't heard, ie: sorc/sage nerfs to CC and aoe Knockback. I can't remember a thread where a Sorc/Sage asked for these. Or a Merc/Commando for that matter (a close range root to a range class?).

 

The changes they made make absolutely no sense what-so-ever. It makes most of the player base wonder if they even play their own game.

 

The balance was perfect in 1.5.1, 1.2 was a joke, 1.3 didn't address any of the player issues, and 1.4 is even worse than 1.2. They nerfed PT's because of forum cries over what a faceroll class they where and then proceded to buff focus/rage Sent/Maras where you need 4 buttons bound to accomplish 6k smashes...pure genius.

 

Then we get to the lack of proper testing on the PTS that isn't made Public by the lack of character copies. A proposed "patch" with this many game changing nerfs/buffs should have been tested for a couple of months, not 2 weeks. It's the same old corner cutting, rush, rush, rush every update that gets them into trouble. Bad coding, poorly designed class changes and the lack of understanding critical player feedback (and unwillingness to bend and admit they might be wrong) that makes this even harder for the player base to care about communiction. What's in the proposed patch notes, stays in the final patch notes with no changes.....not even once.

Edited September 28, 2012 by kcol
More observations

[Kltpxyzm]

I did indeed read through the article, and while I think it's valid I also think that it seems to focus more on the problems in TOR, a few of which were bad calls from the start and nothing can really be done to fix them now (i.e. the rushed release). It was that you mentioned 1.4 yourself that got my attention.

 

I think that rolling back some of 1.4 could be beneficial. While the added content is a little gasp of fresh air it seems that the other changes caused unintended side effects. I don't think there would be a lot of justified objections if the devs left Terror from Beyond but some of the other features (temporarily) to iron out bugs. However, I'm thinking that the big issue in 1.4 was the shadow upgrade. From what I've seen in the forums everybody's computer has taken this patch differently, ranging from the game closing itself to randomly minimizing the screen (the worst I've had is some random particle effect bugs).

 

If the devs are to pull something, I'd vote on that.

[ZirusZero]

Fluff. This means Pazaak on starships, chairs you can sit in, and Sabbacc on the Telos and Gav Daragon.

[Joesixxpack]

If PVE is going to be on rails, at least make open world PVP more interesting and attractive for PVP servers.

 

A few suggestions:

 

- Put shuttle points on fleet to open world PVP areas like the Outlaws Den. Put them on other planets as well.

 

- Fix Ilum. Once fixed, change it up periodically and add stuff to keep people interested and enjoying it.

 

- Inter-faction PVP challenges? Some mechanism to make this work, a comm center on fleet, whatever.

 

I'm pretty satisfied with PVE, flashpoints, etc. so won't add anything about it.

[SNCommand]

 

- Put shuttle points on fleet to open world PVP areas like the Outlaws Den. Put them on other planets as well.

 

You can for 50k buy a teleport to Outlaws Den, just a heads up

[Kltpxyzm]

I think that two of these points can be combined.

 

Periodically changing the content on lvl 50 planets would be interested and attract some attention, but I don't think it would be long lived if the only rewards are commendations and credits. However, having continually changing Republic vs Imperial instances would certainly attract some high level play. These faction PVPs could give out something a little more rewarding, like titles or aesthetic gifts. I'd do 20 faction PVPs if it meant I could change the color of my chest piece or get a certain accessory to show of my pub stomping prowess.

 

The main issue I've seen for Rep vs Imp pvp I've seen is the the difference in numbers (Imps have a number advantage, if I recall). I've always wondered why not make Warzone like instances to solve this? While there would still be open world PVP, why not have mission givers that give PVP Warzone (or some other name) missions. When you accept this you're added to the queue for the mission, and once 4 pubs and 4 imps are queued you can teleport to a Warzone like area of the map where you have to fulfill certain objectives, such as defending a base or repairing an object while the other team tries to stop you.

[CosmicKat]

Simple fix...

 

Get a DeLorean. Drive 88 MPH back to 2005 and send everyone at Bioware a memo: "Don't emulate WoW!"

 

Problem solved.

 

You're Welcome!

 

But seriously, too much like WoW is the problem. Un-doing that is a giant undertaking that we aren't likely to see.

[Nukor]

Not to be rude, but there's a lot of people in the world who on a day-to-day basis can't figure out what they're going to have for lunch. To expect average-minded people to have consistently constructive input is comparable to expecting a duck to do your taxes.

 

Sadly many do not care to collaborate, they just vent and move on.

 

I am curious though, you talked about discussing game issues on a larger scale (didn't really read past that) and I agree that's a much better approach for a community to take when making known what changes they want to see, but would it not make much more sense to use conferencing software to hold the discussions? From the minutes an organized group can devise a method on how to implement a wide-scale action plan that sets the development wheels in motion for said changes.

 

Just throwing it out there, with spoken word debate you'll achieve a better conversation than what the forums will have to offer. Not that these forums are that bad, but this kind of project sounds like it'd be more easily managed with the ability to boot the trolls out of the conversation yourself instead of waiting on the report button to do it for you.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Nukor

[Sarfux]

Cut all the crap.

 

What would it take you ask?

 

EA getting the FRACK out. That's what. They ruin everything. FRACK EA!

[SNCommand]

Cut all the crap.

 

What would it take you ask?

 

EA getting the FRACK out. That's what. They ruin everything. FRACK EA!

 

Like anyone else would be funding a project of this size

[DashaAdair]

In terms of the recent class changes I don’t think it’s fair to say they responded to what we requested, especially vis-à-vis PvP. With only a couple of exceptions, e.g. interrupts for commandos, they just went off on their own and remade the classes in a manner that did not effectively incorporate lessons learned by players.

 

It retrospect it is clear the changes to classes put forth in their developer blog dtd 04 Sep were set in stone. Therein is the problem. Had these ideas been put out earlier in development and tested on PTS for their intended effect earlier to make sure they were effective and, more importantly, did not unintentionally have any other negative consequences, we would not have the flat product that just came out.

 

What was particularly disingenuous was this from 05 Sep:

 

“From our internal play testing and feedback, we're confident that the new experience is more fun. Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun, so we're looking forward to players actually testing these changes in-game on the PTS and giving us good, constructive feedback that is based on playing with the changes."

 

If you want the game improved the above statement should have been true. Provide an effective test environment and sufficient time to receive feedback and act on it. The developers did not intend to effectively test the 04 Sep announced changes. The decision to go live was already in place barring one thing, that it didn’t crash the system. They need to set aside resources, including time, to effectively test, effectively assess the impact, and have the time to effectively incorporate feedback relative to changes.

 

Something else to help turn things around, engender trust.

[AshlaBoga]

Honestly at this point the best thing for SWTOR would be if EA discontinued it (NOT TROLLING).

 

Someone else (AreaNet, Blizzard, Radical, SuckerPunch, Bungie) could buy the rights from LucasArts and release

SWTOR 2.0 - the way it should have been.

 

I'd do this myself but I'm not loaded unfortunately, and the revamp would require +20 million. Anyone here a multimillionaire? Cause if so you should buy the rights and make a better game, it's your Star Wars duty!

[Xatasha]

Find a better way to communicate than using forums. Forums give players a false sense of entitlement. It takes a long time for an good idea to go up the chain and then back down the chain. Players don't seem to understand this and expect things to happen at the speed of light.

 

Maybe a suggestion box with a cookie cutter Form that can be better organized by bioware. Let players also know that nasty comments get your form filtered out. Allow others to be able to go though them and if their idea is already there then they can add their input to it.

[Evensong]

Honestly at this point the best thing for SWTOR would be if EA discontinued it (NOT TROLLING).

 

Someone else (AreaNet, Blizzard, Radical, SuckerPunch, Bungie) could buy the rights from LucasArts and release

SWTOR 2.0 - the way it should have been.

 

I'd do this myself but I'm not loaded unfortunately, and the revamp would require +20 million. Anyone here a multimillionaire? Cause if so you should buy the rights and make a better game, it's your Star Wars duty!

 

Hmmm did you go to MMORPG forums and see how bored of GW2 are people after 1 month of playing> peak Xfire numbers were 92k now is 32k. WoW MoP sales are abysmal too.

This is Trolling. This game is much better then some give it credit for.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Evensong

[Kltpxyzm]

An online conference would have an advantage, true. More would get done in a shorter time and the people involved would be more focused. However, a using the forums has the advantage that everybody can see it, go over what's been said in detail, and its readily view-able by all.

 

Also, EA isn't necessarily my favorite company, but they're part of the equation now for better or worse.

 

Finally, you do have a point concerning taking player suggestions, particularly concerning PVP (this thread has me rethinking my opinion on that). This has to do with two things; time and trust. You are correct that the TOR team hasn't done much in the recent past to endear the players to them; being in the dark for the free character transfers was a huge tax on a lot of people, as an example. For that, having the Public Test server does seem kind of arbitrary. As for time, a lot of things seem rushed to meet public demand. People are clamoring for new content, and I guess that's pressuring the team to release it before it's ready. Is that an excuse? Hell no. If the public was really so concerned about new content then they can afford to wait a little longer while the team makes sure it doesn't crash the server. I know it's a subscription based game (at the moment), but sometimes quality saves more money than time saving.

 

The solution, in my opinion? Give and take respect. There was a supposed conference a while back where some of the developers sat down with the heads of major guilds and talked about what players wanted and what was being done. This kind of thing needs to happen a lot more often. Going back to the online conference, having a face to face meeting between creators and players carries a lot of weight. Look at Valve; all of their quality assurance, up until recently, is done with a large degree of personal interaction between the play tester and the programming team.

 

Also, something as simple as a developers timetable, view-able by players, would be fantastic. What's the status on fixing server lag? Even if there's not a definite date that says "Server lag is fixed NOW" in big glitter letters, I'd love it if a subsection of the Dev-Tracker was commited to saying things like "We found out that our x is actually causing a problem with our y; looking to address that in our next regular maintenance!"

 

Also, Ashla, I could not agree more. Bioware definitely has the ideas to make TOR stand out on it's own, but they don't have the experience to make an MMO run. If a company with more experience in the field picked up the rights and kept the original dev team then this game could make some serious improvements! I understand that BioWare should learn how an MMO should run, but they don't have to learn through something that will hurt their reputation to much.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Kltpxyzm