Bioware, was it your intention to purchase WH gear twice?

[Mournblood]

To anyone who PvPs regularly, this isn't news by any means, but it's becoming more and more common practice for players to repurchase their WH gear to replace the mods in their first set in order to stack specific stats, such as Power. I fully realize that WH gear is not optimized, or at least not well, but I have to question if this was BW's intention. Getting full WH gear takes long enough, but then to grind out a second set to min/max in order to be competitive seems a bit ridiculous to me. And yes, there's a significant advantage that stat stacking (e.g. Power) has over those who do not do that. I can't imagine that this was necessarily intended, and I'm wondering if BW is even aware of it, or if they are, do they have a better solution in mind to address this?

[cycao]

To anyone who PvPs regularly, this isn't news by any means, but it's becoming more and more common practice for players to repurchase their WH gear to replace the mods in their first set in order to stack specific stats, such as Power. I fully realize that WH gear is not optimized, or at least not well, but I have to question if this was BW's intention. Getting full WH gear takes long enough, but then to grind out a second set to min/max in order to be competitive seems a bit ridiculous to me. And yes, there's a significant advantage that stat stacking (e.g. Power) has over those who do not do that. I can't imagine that this was necessarily intended, and I'm wondering if BW is even aware of it, or if they are, do they have a better solution in mind to address this?

 

Well that is the way it has always been really for all the gear. It would be kind of "easy" (might take it for that but meh) if you just get the BiS when you purchase a piece or armor. I like it this way, it lets you customize it to your liking. I know one guy who only stacks power while I need more crit for my build so I am more balanced.

 

Looking at the new elite war hero mainhand they are pretty much good to go right out of the box so maybe when they release the rest of the gear it will be the same.

[jgoldsack]

To anyone who PvPs regularly, this isn't news by any means, but it's becoming more and more common practice for players to repurchase their WH gear to replace the mods in their first set in order to stack specific stats, such as Power. I fully realize that WH gear is not optimized, or at least not well, but I have to question if this was BW's intention. Getting full WH gear takes long enough, but then to grind out a second set to min/max in order to be competitive seems a bit ridiculous to me. And yes, there's a significant advantage that stat stacking (e.g. Power) has over those who do not do that. I can't imagine that this was necessarily intended, and I'm wondering if BW is even aware of it, or if they are, do they have a better solution in mind to address this?

 

It is the price of trying to min/max your gear. That is what sets the upper crust of players apart from the rest... they care enough to spend the extra time and comms to buy second and third pieces to get that bit of an extra edge. I have done it on my assassin tank, bought 2 more sets of legs just for the mods for my other items. And I will do the same with the new offhand as well to make myself a belt and bracers for PvP.

[Mournblood]

It is the price of trying to min/max your gear. That is what sets the upper crust of players apart from the rest... they care enough to spend the extra time and comms to buy second and third pieces to get that bit of an extra edge.

 

I disagree with it as a requirement to be competitive. It takes long enough to get full WH. I don't feel it's a reasonable expectation that players should need to grind out another set to be on equal footing. The fact that players are doing this is a consequence of looking to squeeze every drop of advantage out of the system they can find, but this is encouraged by BW's poor WH set optimization (and high stat ceilings). I have over 30% crit on my set, for example, when Crit is about 4th or 5th on my stat priorities.

 

I earned my WH just like everyone else, and I invested the creds to fully augment it. I even replaced the belt and bracers with moddable versions. But to turn around and grind out another WH set so that I can stack Power to infinity and beyond just seems cheesy, and only further increases the entry barrier for new players. It should be sufficient to get your WH set (and augment it). Requiring anything more than that isn't doing PvP any favors in this game. I just think there's a better solution to this than simply buying a second set of WH, and I'm wondering if BW has anything on their minds other than F2P and updating their resumes.

[FourTwent]

It is the price of trying to min/max your gear.

 

this ^^

 

and yes it is their intention. they've talked about it before, and is probably why you'll never see stock gear optimized perfectly

Edited September 17, 2012 by FourTwent

[Mournblood]

.....and yes it is their intention. they've talked about it before, and is probably why you'll never see stock gear optimized perfectly

 

Do you happen to have a link to where "they've talked about it before"? I looked before I made this post and couldn't find anything official from BW on the topic.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Mournblood

[Himeji_Endless]

Its their way of keeping us subbed longer while we grind out for min/max only to have to start all over again when they release the next higher tier of gear ... "carrot stick" trick ... it does get a bit insulting after a while, but then again what would we do w/o a grind?

[Mournblood]

Its their way of keeping us subbed longer while we grind out for min/max only to have to start all over again when they release the next higher tier of gear ... "carrot stick" trick ... it does get a bit insulting after a while, but then again what would we do w/o a grind?

 

I don't mind the grind. That's part of playing an MMO. My contention is that we already did the grind once for WH, which is plenty long enough, so we shouldn't have to do it twice or more (for the same character) at the same tier of gear.

[FourTwent]

Do you happen to have a link to where "they've talked about it before"? I looked before I made this post and couldn't find anything official from BW on the topic.

 

sorry, i dont keep a list of links as sources for people who missed out on information. it was talked about by a developer back when they were allowed to post on the forums. is probably listed in a QA thread too

Edited September 17, 2012 by FourTwent

[Anastasius]

It is what passes for endgame content at EA.

[sanchito]

i wonder how everyone is going to feel once the next tier comes out and the prices of regular WH gear get reduced. This, too, has always been this way ;-)

[nellosmomishot]

You should try a focus guardian. You literally have to grind 14 pieces of set gear to get your fully min/maxed 5 piece set.

 

1 Vindicator's Headpiece = 1 usable armoring

1 Vindicator's Chestpiece = 1 usable armoring

1 Vindicator's Gloves = 1 usable armoring

1 Vindicator's Legs = 1 usable armoring

5 Vindicator's Boots = 1 usable armoring, 5 usable mods

5 Sage Mystic's Gloves = 5 usable enhancements

 

And all of that gives you your 5 piece set having +80 power and +53 surge on every piece. Lucky for me I did all the grinding on my main and mailed the pieces to my alt (they're so spoiled).

Edited September 17, 2012 by nellosmomishot

[nellosmomishot]

i wonder how everyone is going to feel once the next tier comes out and the prices of regular WH gear get reduced. This, too, has always been this way ;-)

 

Even better will be the QQ when they realize the min/maxers are taking the mods / enhancements from the new mainhands and putting them in their set pieces.

[Larry_Dallas]

Think a better way to handle this would to make the PvP sets like the BH/Campaign sets, where the mods are strippable and reverse-engineerable. Those PvP crafting mats might finally have some use and the prices would be astronomical, which crafters would like.

[Larry_Dallas]

You should try a focus guardian. You literally have to grind 14 pieces of set gear to get your fully min/maxed 5 piece set.

 

1 Vindicator's Headpiece = 1 usable armoring

1 Vindicator's Chestpiece = 1 usable armoring

1 Vindicator's Gloves = 1 usable armoring

1 Vindicator's Legs = 1 usable armoring

5 Vindicator's Boots = 1 usable armoring, 5 usable mods

5 Sage Mystic's Gloves = 5 usable enhancements

 

And all of that gives you your 5 piece set having +80 power and +53 surge on every piece. Lucky for me I did all the grinding on my main and mailed the pieces to my alt (they're so spoiled).

 

That's pretty bad. Carnage Marauders also have to buy pieces they can't even wear and strip the armorings for the damage bonus post-leap.

[DarthOvertone]

It is the price of trying to min/max your gear.

 

Pretty much this. My Shadow has been grinding at least 2 sets from the start. 2 Sets of Champ gear, 2 sets of BM gear, and now 2 sets of WH gear. When he had his two sets of BM gear, my Shadow was even grinding to extract mods from Scoundrel gear. lol

 

My Marauder will have to grind two sets as well if he wants to be min/maxed to the hilt.

 

It appears 1.4 will make this a bit simpler, assuming the EWH Mainhand and Offhand mods are sufficient themselves for min/maxing. We will see.

 

 

But to turn around and grind out another WH set so that I can stack Power to infinity and beyond just seems cheesy, and only further increases the entry barrier for new players.

 

I don't think anyone really loves the current system. I think we would all be open to a more straightforward grind->mods direct approach without the emphasis on Sets. But, cheesy or not, the system is what it is and min/maxers just adapt accordingly.

 

I don't really see how this impacts new players so much. Most of the peeps min/maxing this way are focused on RWZs and the competition there. Nobody really cares much about the regular WZs and what happens in them. If new players are effected, the impact is an indirect one, although I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few premades out there rolling min/max that just like to grief it up in normal WZs.

[Larry_Dallas]

Pretty much this. My Shadow has been grinding at least 2 sets from the start. 2 Sets of Champ gear, 2 sets of BM gear, and now 2 sets of WH gear. When he had his two sets of BM gear, my Shadow was even grinding to extract mods from Scoundrel gear. lol

 

My Marauder will have to grind two sets as well if he wants to be min/maxed to the hilt.

 

It appears 1.4 will make this a bit simpler, assuming the EWH Mainhand and Offhand mods are sufficient themselves for min/maxing. We will see.

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone really loves the current system. I think we would all be open to a more straightforward grind->mods direct approach without the emphasis on Sets. But, cheesy or not, the system is what it is and min/maxers just adapt accordingly.

 

I don't really see how this impacts new players so much. Most of the peeps min/maxing this way are focused on RWZs and the competition there. Nobody really cares much about the regular WZs and what happens in them. If new players are effected, the impact is an indirect one, although I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few premades out there rolling min/max that just like to grief it up in normal WZs.

 

Like this idea too. In fact, I'd rather get mod choices from raid bosses than new equipment sets as well. Feel stupid rolling on, say, campaign leggings when all I need is an armoring and I'll just be REing the rest.

[Mournblood]

I don't really see how this impacts new players so much. Most of the peeps min/maxing this way are focused on RWZs and the competition there. Nobody really cares much about the regular WZs and what happens in them. If new players are effected, the impact is an indirect one, although I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few premades out there rolling min/max that just like to grief it up in normal WZs.

 

I can't speak for your server, but on mine, this isn't true at all. RWZs are dead on my server, save the guilds that are win trading. Full min/max WH geared premades, partial and full, are rolling in regular WZs. For a Recruit geared player who's just starting PvP, the impact is very direct and very negative. That's not a playing experience any game should be promoting, inadvertently or not. Granted, the gear disparity here can be handled through gear matched WZs (that is, if we had a cross-server queue system to support it), but that's not possible in the present environment.

 

As for players not caring about regular WZs and what happens in them, that's very narrow-minded and again, very untrue on my server since 99% of our PvP is in regular WZs.

 

This impacts new players because they have to go from Recruit to BM, from BM to WH, and then from WH to WH. That's essentially three gear grinds when there's only supposed to be two with the current tiers of PvP gear. Why do you think they removed Centurion gear and gave players free Recruit gear? It was to reduce the entry barrier. Can you imagine if players had to grind Centurion first and then BM through the old RNG system like most of us did back then before they could even get WH gear? The min/max practice only serves to add another layer to the grind, and increases that entry barrier.

[Soljin]

What bioware said is they expected peeps to purchase additional set pieces to itemize for specific specs basically...I dont have a link either but it was stated by Bioware.

 

They should really just have recruit gear moddable so everyone gets that skin...and have all the higher level Armoring,hilts,barrels, mods and enhancements purchasable single....That way once the Set bonuses are attached to the armoring themselves people can put them into any skin etc...It would also provide for a more frequent upgrade for people..although not as large of an increase per purchase.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Soljin

[Mournblood]

What bioware said is they expected peeps to purchase additional set pieces to itemize for specific specs basically...I dont have a link either but it was stated by Bioware.

 

Since I'm hearing this from more than one person, I'll assume it's accurate even without the link. But that's disappointing. Once again, BW demonstrates that they have no idea what they are doing when it comes to PvP. To expect players to grind out the same tier of gear more than once for the same character is just asanine. There are so many better ways they could have designed this.

 

They should really just have recruit gear moddable so everyone gets that skin...and have all the higher level Armoring,hilts,barrels, mods and enhancements purchasable single....That way once the Set bonuses are attached to the armoring themselves people can put them into any skin etc...It would also provide for a more frequent upgrade for people..although not as large of an increase per purchase.

 

I think I see what you're saying, and I really like this idea. If you could purchase the individual mods with comms instead of whole poorly optimized set pieces, it would allow you to buy the specific mods you need to optimize your set without requiring you to repurchase set pieces just to replace mods with. This is not some ground breaking, MMO history making solution, but it's simple, efficient, and puts more control into the players hands on how they want to set up their gear. And this is exactly the kind of design feature that BW, the supposed professionals, should have come up with on their own.

[DimeStax]

To anyone who PvPs regularly, this isn't news by any means, but it's becoming more and more common practice for players to repurchase their WH gear to replace the mods in their first set in order to stack specific stats, such as Power. I fully realize that WH gear is not optimized, or at least not well, but I have to question if this was BW's intention. Getting full WH gear takes long enough, but then to grind out a second set to min/max in order to be competitive seems a bit ridiculous to me. And yes, there's a significant advantage that stat stacking (e.g. Power) has over those who do not do that. I can't imagine that this was necessarily intended, and I'm wondering if BW is even aware of it, or if they are, do they have a better solution in mind to address this?

 

There are many different specs in the game. There is no way the WH set can be perfect for every single way people choose to build their characters. Hence why they allow customization. WH sets are designed to be the most balanced for all the specs, not the most optimized for a small percentage of specs.

[Mournblood]

There are many different specs in the game. There is no way the WH set can be perfect for every single way people choose to build their characters. Hence why they allow customization. WH sets are designed to be the most balanced for all the specs, not the most optimized for a small percentage of specs.

 

I understand that, but there are better ways they could have addressed that rather than expecting players to grind a full set of WH gear twice. It's lazy design decisions like that why their game is offering F2P in November. See post #20 just before yours. That is a perfect example of one way they could have done this better, only, another player thought of it, not Bioware.

[foxmob]

That is what sets the upper crust of players apart from the rest... they care enough to spend the extra time and comms to buy second and third pieces to get that bit of an extra edge

 

lol no it's not. knowing the abils and rotations and how to react to them on OTHER classes - then doing it quickly - is what separates the cream of the crop from the very good, good, average, etc. min/maxing reflects dedication and time. it has its merits. but it doesn't make you great. alas, I'm living proof of that.

[DarthBloodloss]

You can tell it was their intention by the way pieces are set up. You know how there are 2 versions of mods and enhancements?

 

Mods

1 version with high END, for example 61aim 49end 11power

1 version with high POWER, for example 49aim 39end 37power (yes, the numbers are slightly off)

 

Enhancement

1 version with high END, 45end 22power 51surge

1 version with high POWER, 45end 49power 51surge

 

This lets you set yourself up for more HP, or for more Damage. However, the way the pieces are designed - they use a high END mod, but a high POWER enhancement (or vice versa). If they only wanted us to buy 1 set, there would be a set of all high END pieces, and another set of all high POWER pieces. But currently they are mixed.

 

Example:

WH Eliminator boots: comes with a mod that has high END (in favor of HPs) but the enhancement is high POWER (in favor of DPS). The mod should instead be the high POWER to match the enhancement.

[aeterno]

Depends, minmaxing your gear to the extreme implies setting yourself up to play a certain spec as a one trick pony. Most blatant example has to be rage juggs where the conventional minmaxing wisdom dictated one should drop any trace of crit rating from their gear in favor of raw power. Thing is other attacks (namely white damage) have been getting more and more love by the changes to the talent tree and this is probably not the most optimal setup for the best overall performance of the spec anymore - making the vanilla WH better itemized than what minmaxers pursued. Granted it took patches of changes to crystallize it but the intention to not have the spec be such a 1 trick pony was probably always there and the vidicator set itemized accordingly heh.