TOR is amazing! =) ...But the game management is awful :(

[Andryah]

I think this is an aspect that is overlooked regularly. The problem is that these MMOs operate in an overcrowded market. People will leave for a variety of different reasons. There are plenty of gamers who will play something and move on to whatever comes next rather quickly. In today's market, they don't have to wait very long before there is something new to try. I myself, have been guilty of supporting this trend on occasion.

 

This does not necessarily speak to STWOR having issues that made these gamers leave.

 

I agree.

 

People like to overlook the fact that "many" are content consumers who hop from game to game and back around again for a rinse and repeat. Nothing SWTOR does will interupt this style of player.

 

People like to overlook the fact that "many" are really single player gamers who treat a new MMO no differently then a new single player game. Nothing SWTOR does will interupt this style of player.

 

I could go on and on with segments of the player base that represent a "many" that nothing Bioware does would retain, but I think you get the point.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Andryah

[SpazCats]

I think this is an aspect that is overlooked regularly. The problem is that these MMOs operate in an overcrowded market. People will leave for a variety of different reasons. There are plenty of gamers who will play something and move on to whatever comes next rather quickly. In today's market, they don't have to wait very long before there is something new to try. I myself, have been guilty of supporting this trend on occasion.

 

This does not necessarily speak to SWTOR having issues that made these gamers leave.

 

This has always been an issue for sure for MMO's, and it does get worse as more and more MMO's are out there at the same time.

 

I still think that SWTOR could have done way better than only roughly, what about, 500k active subs right now though, being that it is made with the Star Wars IP with such a large budget, if it wasn't so mis-managed as the OP points out.

[TheRainstater]

TOR is a failure that drove off so many players its going F2P to squeeze the lemon dry, nice that you agree just not on the how is fine My friend wants to play TOR and that was already made clear but your ability to comprehend is your business:p

 

Your friend must really feel special that you force yourself to play this game you think is horrible in order to spend time with him/her. That the time you spend with them in SWTOR is nothing more then you disrespecting them behind their back blatantly flaming something they enjoy.

 

You're actually a pretty crappy friend. If I had a friend who was pretending to be my friend and pretending to enjoy something I enjoy while really hating every minute of it I would stop being that persons friend.

 

No one wants a fake friend.

[LeonBraun]

The title of this thread concerned me, but I must admit that the Original Poster is right on point. I must agree. I would truly love to see more communication and interaction with the community.

 

I was considering not going with this title, but ultimately it's a really honest title and sometimes one needs to be bluntly honest; sometimes it's what's best.

 

@LeonBraun:

 

What you posted has nothing to do with the SUBJECT of this thread.

 

What you ostensibly posted was a post on "communications" concerning SWTOR by The Community Team.

 

I used the word "management" because the issues I mentioned go far beyond the community team. While the current community team is barely doing any better than they were when Stephen Reid was here, the fact that very little has changed since then says quite a bit about what the SWTOR community team is allowed to work with; though there is still plenty of room for improvement where the forum mods are concerned.

 

We have been given feed back from the highest levels at points since release from everyone from the doctors Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk to James Ohlen to Daniel Erickson, right down to our community mods. The management I was referring to is everyone in administration involved in this game; and yes, the job that is being done here regarding player interaction needs to improve. This is crucial to future success of SWTOR.

 

I believe a big part of this can be resolved by additional active participation by the community team and devs on the forum. Yes, this forum. It's cool to have Facebook, Twiiter, Reddit, etc all covered but this is the only space on the web that is 100% devoted to THIS game. They need a bigger presence here.

 

Ok, so they don't have anything new to say but can't you add to player discussion and pretend you care about the game? Example, threads about lore, game play style, etc should have a bioware community rep response. It would show us that you actually play your own product and care about it enough to have an opinion on things, even if you post a disclaimer that it's your opinion only.

 

This isn't a SWG is better thread but I remember when I first started playing Thunderheart and Twiggs the CM's for SWG would post at least 10-12 things daily. He was passionate about his job because he was actually a huge fan of the game prior to being hired as a CM. We need that same level of interest.

 

I fully appreciate their efforts to reach out to developers but it would be even better if they were engaged in the community in ways that are non official as well. More communication, even when it seems like it's non essential says volumes more for the health of the game than the current pace of information flow.

 

^^ Yes. This exactly.

[Cheezfriend]

The fact that Bioware hasn't posted in this thread says it all.

[Tim-ONeil]

The fact that Bioware hasn't posted in this thread says it all.

 

I wouldn't if I were them. The thread title is pretty negative and would be on the Dev tracker and get a lot of eyeballs. The content of the thread is better but that's the cardinal rule to get a response. PC titles are more likely to get it done.

[CaptRavenous]

Good post, OP. You are quite correct, this game IS being poorly managed.

 

Its like they fired everyone who put actual work into making the game, then handed it over to a bunch of politicians.

 

They assure us things will get better, then fall silent and do next to nothing. Update 1.4 will see just how hard they have been working, but I have little faith.

 

Great game, poor management. Though I am sure they build an illusion around themselves that convinces them they are doing a great job in managing this game. Which is why they don't say much here, anymore, they don't want to pop their illusionary bubble.

[LeonBraun]

The lack of clear communication we've had in the last couple days here regarding mergers and name changes is a pretty good example of the thread topic. A lot of issues like these could be avoided if the community were able to have a degree of constructive interaction and communication from the game leadership.

[Rochand]

The devs are probably drinking some drinks right now while laughing at our complaints because they know that with F2P there will be new idiots to take our place when we say **** it and move away from this ******** of a company.

 

Now I'm glad there won't be a ME4, you disappointed me for the last time Bioware.

[Pherdnut]

They're also slow to fix core design issues. Crafting in particular. I get the sense it's not clear who's steering the ship. Back when the game was first going to be released there were all kinds of cool plans for modifying appearance of companions and changing core armor colors that I would guess were sunk in favor of having a more easily monetized system of pre-built looks and color-tweaked items.

 

I also seriously doubt it was Bioware's head peeps pushing to make the game as much like WoW as it is. That was a dumb move, IMO. If people want WoW-like, they have WoW which has a buttload more content than this game does through virtue of having been around much longer.

 

If not for SW KOTOR-tied setting + companions + better storytelling, I would have bailed on this game permanently rather than waiting a few months to see if things improved. It looks like they've improved somewhat but I can't say that I'm blown away by what's been accomplished in the last six months.

 

We got some new Flashpoints and content and a bunch of balancing tweaks and bug fixes. Obvious "duh" crafting design principle issues still don't seem to have been sorted out, however. Character creation and appearance tailoring have gotten very little in the way of upgrades outside of adaptive armor (which was a step that should've been taken outright or at least by March). Every exciting rumored or announced upgrade is in question with the constant shift in personnel.

[Nikei]

Sorry, but Andryah is correct. The market is shifting towards the F2P/Freemium model. Subscription is no longer the way to go. It hasn't been for a while now. You really like to beat these 4 points around don't you?

 

Funny, because the lead devs talked some monumental smack about f2p models pre-launch. Basically summed up as "This game is so good and has such deep pockets for development that we don't have to squeeze blood from a stone." The good old days when "We feel a premium, top shelf product can command a steady subscription fee". 'Course this was back when they'd say things like "8 people bashing on 1 mob isn't heroic" and "your light side/dark side choices will have real, lasting impact on your character." Credibility gap, just a wee bit. You can't run around claiming "We're better than that" and then about face and "so, oh, everyone is doing it, so its ok." At least not without salt-&-peppering up a nice heaping plate of crow.

 

I think their exit polling for canceling subscribers was formulated in a way that's giving them bad data. I'm not quiting my subscription because $15 a month is too much. I have $15 a month to give - its bloody trivial. My problem is if you are going to charge me the price of a new game every 4 months, you had damn well better deliver a reasonable fraction of a new game worth of entertainment in that period. 5 raid boss in 5 months is a friken JOKE. Not a single new space mission since launch. What... 2 Flashpoints in that time? And then the death blow to my intetions to re-up my sub: a world event with not 1 word of new hero dialogue being recorded. If this is the much lauded "Bioware Storytelling", let me say, other people are doing it better every day.

 

I have enough time to play out a few Imps and see how the other side lives in story arcs, but the devs need to do a LOT more than clean up shadows if they want to keep making my money off of what is basical a fun game play tool with a very limited body of activites.

[Andryah]

Funny, because the lead devs talked some monumental smack about f2p models pre-launch. Basically summed up as "This game is so good and has such deep pockets for development that we don't have to squeeze blood from a stone." The good old days when "We feel a premium, top shelf product can command a steady subscription fee". 'Course this was back when they'd say things like "8 people bashing on 1 mob isn't heroic" and "your light side/dark side choices will have real, lasting impact on your character." Credibility gap, just a wee bit. You can't run around claiming "We're better than that" and then about face and "so, oh, everyone is doing it, so its ok." At least not without salt-&-peppering up a nice heaping plate of crow.

 

What is actually funny is that you bought into the marketing hype, and now want to beat them around the head about it.

[Andryah]

The lack of clear communication we've had in the last couple days here regarding mergers and name changes is a pretty good example of the thread topic.

 

While Bioware owns some of the responsibility.... the lack of reading and reading comprehension on the part of so many players with respect to the communications they did make is equally egregious.

[Kraye]

TOR is a failure because management failed to do their jobs correctly, its that simple.

[Nikei]

What is actually funny is that you bought into the marketing hype, and now want to beat them around the head about it.

 

Sombody was claiming the game wasn't living up to player-created hype. I'm just pointing out it wasn't exatly humble hyperbole the devs were throwing out there.

 

Look at the thread topic: good game, piss poor management. I agree with that sentiment completely. You want to sit down and mindlessly throw aquarium gravel at a bad guy or force choke the stuffing out of some helpless bystander for 15-20 minutes once in a while, the game's bloody brilliant. Very entertaining system. If you want to invest some time in your character you end up fighting with a character creator that's barbaric, a costuming system that's a blight, a crafting panel that still auto-sorts by the single least important variable (and then secondary sorts alphabetically using a series of utterly non-sens adjectives), while facing a palette of end game activities that have been stagnant for months.

 

Yes, I'm irked by the shortfall between hype and reality, because its a mystery how you pour 100+ million dollars into a project's launch, based on the most potent fictional brandname on the planet... and then castrate it's sustained developement so badly that we might have been better off with a browser game than a so called AAA MMO.

 

It'll make a fine f2p game. Its a shame its not more.

[LeonBraun]

While Bioware owns some of the responsibility.... the lack of reading and reading comprehension on the part of so many players with respect to the communications they did make is equally egregious.

 

While reactive communication regarding issues is often better than nothing; proactive interaction is always preferable for optimal experiences by everyone all around.

[JansanRuno]

Rift however, suffering from the very same market forces, is incentivizing the heck out of it's player base and has for a long time. Latest example: free expansion with a one year subscription commitment. Different approach to the same problem, so let's not pretend otherwise. In reality Trion's desperate avoidance of a freemium model is very likely because they have another MMO in development and being a small company they will be unable to launch it if they set a Freemium precedent with Rift. Bioware has no such fears for a number of very valid business reasons.

.

 

This is true. The initial money can be quite large for a new game or expansion with a couple million $40-60. I don't think too many MMO's start as F2P, but if there isn't any plan to release a new version where you can sell copies of the cient at $60, F2P makes sense. GW2 is B2P but if there wasn't going to be a GW3 then they would be F2P.

[Urael]

Rift however, suffering from the very same market forces, is incentivizing the heck out of it's player base and has for a long time.

 

Terra is also suffering:

 

TERA's Chris Hager explains server merges and game health

 

Terra ( the SWTOR killer ) is undergoing server mergers and layoffs.

 

Hmmm ... and it has NOTHING to do with how gamers are today. /sarc

 

(Which you and I maintain is at the root of the problem.)

 

[SpazCats]

It'll make a fine f2p game. Its a shame its not more.

 

Oh so much this.

[NamShub]

Sorry, but Andryah is correct. The market is shifting towards the F2P/Freemium model. Subscription is no longer the way to go. It hasn't been for a while now. You really like to beat these 4 points around don't you?

 

That was not the original plan with SWTOR. Bioware launched as a subscription service because they planned to have much greater player retention than they did. The F2P/Freemium model works okay for games that don't have a strong competitive edge over other games in the market by lowering the commitment required to play it. When you have a market leader you don't go with that model since it doesn't provide the optimum ROI.

 

Moving away from the subscription model so soon after launch is an admission that SWTOR isn't recognized by the market as having a strong value proposition when compared with other games. This isn't a move that Bioware and EA are happy to make, it's one they are being forced to make because their value proposition isn't strong.

[Andryah]

That was not the original plan with SWTOR.

 

How do you know? Are you privvy to inside information?

 

If you follow the interviews and public access info on the topic, it's pretty clear they had been looking at Freemium for a long time, and maybe even since/before launch. There are rumors that Lucas Arts nixxed freemium at launch, whereas EA/Bioware wanted it.

[Andryah]

Moving away from the subscription model so soon after launch is an admission that SWTOR isn't recognized by the market as having a strong value proposition when compared with other games.

 

Only partially true. It's much more an acknowledgement of market forces in the MMO space today. Even the great WoW is bleeding out like a stuck pig (in terms of paid subs in the west, not Asia token play accounts).

Edited September 19, 2012 by Andryah

[SpazCats]

How do you know? Are you privvy to inside information?

 

If you follow the interviews and public access info on the topic, it's pretty clear they had been looking at Freemium for a long time, and maybe even since/before launch. There are rumors that Lucas Arts nixxed freemium at launch, whereas EA/Bioware wanted it.

 

Didn't Bioware/EA smack talk F2P games not too long ago?

 

EDIT: I should say, the F2P model, not games specifically

Edited September 19, 2012 by SpazCats

[tolaf]

Didn't Bioware/EA smack talk F2P games not too long ago?

 

Yes they have, and at the begining of launch they always boasted about how they would never go F2P like those other cheap games.

[Roalmo]

Didn't Bioware/EA smack talk F2P games not too long ago?

 

EDIT: I should say, the F2P model, not games specifically

 

Quiet! They don't want facts.... everything is ok.. it's fine.. don't worry, it was all planned this way.