Urael Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 ......repeating yourself does not make you any more correct than you were before. Also, please stop referring to that lemon analogy. But, didn't you know if you repeat an error enough you will lead more people to fall? There are many like him on these forums that are set in stone; no reasoned arguement will penetrate. I only engage so as to lessen their effects and give others a more reasoned argument to ponder (that and it IS fun ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) Rift is not going F2P, Rift did not fail and will be sub model for a long time. Rift however, suffering from the very same market forces, is incentivizing the heck out of it's player base and has for a long time. Latest example: free expansion with a one year subscription commitment. Different approach to the same problem, so let's not pretend otherwise. In reality Trion's desperate avoidance of a freemium model is very likely because they have another MMO in development and being a small company they will be unable to launch it if they set a Freemium precedent with Rift. Bioware has no such fears for a number of very valid business reasons. Rift did not close 189 servers and lose so many players that going F2P is the only way to save a sinking ship, Rift is thriving. The number of servers closed is a nonsequitur to the entire discussion. Not to mention the scale of the two MMOs was completely different at launch and continue to this day. What they both share though is they are large MMO releases in the modern state of MMOs (ie: within the last 24-36 months). What matters is subs, subs attrition, and subs stabiltiy, for which both Rift and SWTOR have and are following very similar trends. Yes, Rift is thriving, but then again so is SWTOR along very similar trend lines. The difference is Rift has no real upside beyond it's current subs base, whereas SWTOR does precisely because it is moving to a freemium dual access account model. TOR does not have 500k subs unless EA ordered to much food from Subway for all the employees and their families at Bioware. Actually, based on solid concurrency numbers provided here in this very forum by one of our long standing members (Scorpienne), a conservative view of concurrent users in the servers is ~ 28K. Couple this with generally validated and accepted in the community numbers of 5% concurrent at any given time in an MMO, you can do the math and see that from a conservative estimation..... we have close to 600K active subs right now. Could be higher even, but that's a conservative floor estimate based on actual reasonable and reliable data available to forum members as contrasted to the things you are tossing around with no rational explanation or basis. TOR is doing so bad it has yet to fully repay its investors and is going F2P so it doesn't shutdown forever. Now see, this statement pretty much proves that you are just making things up as you go along, and have no understanding of business. There are no investors in EA or Bioware, as it is a publicly traded company. Further, if you are referring to the investment costs for developing the game, those are sunk capital investment costs and are treated on both a tax and business basis as non-recoverable costs. So there is nothing to repay. despite your attempts at hyperbole. There you go again with the irony Kraye. Edited September 17, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nastynas Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 1. Massive sub losses 2. Massive server shutdowns (more coming) 3. Massive layoffs 4. Massive profit losses F2P by any other name.........necessary or TOR was going to shutdown entirely. You need to take off the beer goggles and look at the reality of the situation. Hey man, that only looks bad because you put "massive" in front of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 I only engage so as to lessen their effects and give others a more reasoned argument to ponder Same here. The only reason to waste time responding to hyperbole is for the benefit of newer or less frequent forum members who deserve better then game hate based hyperbole. I know it's hyperbole and subjective opinion, and by presenting a fact based contrast, other forum members can read and decide for themselves rather then be constantly subjected to a severly skewed negative view of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraye Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Kraye, would you be happier of TOR recovered and was successful? Or would you be happier if it failed and shut down completely so you could tell people how right you always were? There are so many huge issues with TOR (hence the massive sub losses/server shutdowns etc..) that its going F2P and will never achieve what it should have from the start. So, yes, I would love to see all the issues resolved and TOR run the way it was expected by millions but is it going to happen? Not in this era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 There are so many huge issues with TOR (hence the massive sub losses/server shutdowns etc..) that its going F2P and will never achieve what it should have from the start. So, yes, I would love to see all the issues resolved and TOR run the way it was expected by millions but is it going to happen? Not in this era. Attempting to disguise the FACT (heh your word in this argument) that you are repeating yourself does not make you anymore correct. Really now, don't you see that you haven't said anything new in your last 10 posts in threads into which you have been perpetuating your meme de jure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) There are so many huge issues with TOR ...... that its going F2P and will never achieve what it should have from the start. Really? Please enlighten us with this list of huge issues. AND, please enlighten us what exactly should SWTOR have been from the start? Please do us all a favor and stick to facts, as it will help the discussion immensely Edited September 17, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardicus Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 OK i just got word from the zoo keepers, we need to stop tapping on the glass and feeding the monkey. it only enrages him to start acting silly, he's are already out of their habitat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonBraun Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) Sorry, as a dedicated player/fan, I disagree with you. And I resent you trying to speak for myself or other fans without our consent. My post said "many" other fans... Not all other fans.... So clearly you don't fall into the category of the original post... But absolutely many do... Edited September 17, 2012 by LeonBraun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 There are so many huge issues with TOR (hence the massive sub losses/server shutdowns etc..) that its going F2P and will never achieve what it should have from the start. So, yes, I would love to see all the issues resolved and TOR run the way it was expected by millions but is it going to happen? Not in this era. So I guess you're posting here just for the Kraydenfreude? I still find the game fun. I like playing it. I'm glad that others still find it fun and play (I can still get a group pretty easily for content). And when all's said and done, if it's fun, play it. If it's not, don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarfux Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 You are very welcome and thankyou but I am already having a superlative day! I think you really love this game Kraye. But...there's just something there driving your hate. Hopefully one day you will see. Nobody with a sane mind would keep paying for something they hate. Unless they were INsane. Then it's a different story. You were lost... You were broken... You were...afraid.... and at last....you saw!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) My post said "many" other fans... Not all other fans.... So clearly you don't fall into the category of the original post... But absolutely many do... I understand, but in reality you can only speak for you. That is my key point. Why hide behind the "many"? Stand up, take stand, own it, IMO. Those that agree with you will give you the thumbs up I am sure. Edited September 17, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpazCats Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) I understand, but in reality you can only speak for you. That is my key point. Why hide behind the "many"? Stand up, take stand, own it, IMO. Those that agree with you will give you the thumbs up I am sure. hmmm, I think he's right. Many other players/fans do feel the same way. Nothing wrong with saying that at all. It's opinion. Not like you don't give yours Andryah. Edited September 17, 2012 by SpazCats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 hmmm, I think he's right. Many other players/fans do feel the same way. Nothing wrong with saying that at all. If by "many" you are using "Fuzzy Math" ( you know 1, 2, 3, many .. the Fuzzys couldn't differentiate past 3) then I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 hmmm, I think he's right. Many other players/fans do feel the same way. Nothing wrong with saying that at all. Some do, some don't.........would be a more accurate stretch of representation. After all, what exactly does "many" mean? And how does one objectively measure it? Not subjectively, but objectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpazCats Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 If by "many" you are using "Fuzzy Math" ( you know 1, 2, 3, many .. the Fuzzys couldn't differentiate past 3) then I agree. No, I mean many, as in the definition of many "constituting or forming a large number; numerous: many people. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpazCats Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) Some do, some don't.........would be a more accurate stretch of representation. After all, what exactly does "many" mean? And how does one objectively measure it? Not subjectively, but objectively. omg seriously, many means "constituting or forming a large number; numerous: many people. ". I think that A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE, RELATIVE TO THE TOTAL NUMBER OF SUBS AGREE WITH THE POSTER. This is my opinion, yes, based on the current state of the game. Edited September 17, 2012 by SpazCats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 No, I mean many, as in the definition of many "constituting or forming a large number; numerous: many people. " I can fit many people in my back yard. Perhaps as many as 200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) If by "many" you are using "Fuzzy Math" ( you know 1, 2, 3, many .. the Fuzzys couldn't differentiate past 3) then I agree. H. Beam Piper FTW! Being a geek and all, I have to point out that they could count to 25, that was a "hand of hands", or 5 x 5 (all 10 fingers). Anything after that was "many" or "many many" Edited September 17, 2012 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 I can fit many people in my back yard. Perhaps as many as 200. But, that is only a "few" in MMORPG numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpazCats Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 I can fit many people in my back yard. Perhaps as many as 200. /sigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonBraun Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) It would seem clear that as "many" as a million other TOR players have had issues with at least some aspects of the game, otherwise we would have as many as 1.7 million or more playing the game currently. As far as standing up and owning a situation, this is exactly what I would ask the leadership of TOR to do as there are still a great many who still play this game and want to see it thrive. Edited September 17, 2012 by LeonBraun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turjake Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 It would seem clear that as "many" as a million other TOR players have had issues with at least some aspects of the game, otherwise we would have as many as 1.7 million or more playing the game currently. As far as standing up and owning a situation, this is exactly what I would ask the leadership of TOR to do as there are still a great many who still play this game and want to see it thrive. Do those people have issues with SWTOR who are jumping from game to next game. For example plenty of people played rift before SWTOR. Atter tor went to diablo 3, then possibly to secret world, then started GW 2 and the next big thing will be pandas in WoW. Other big group would be those that wanted to test tor but decided to go back to their old game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddyRufus Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) Do those people have issues with SWTOR who are jumping from game to next game. For example plenty of people played rift before SWTOR. Atter tor went to diablo 3, then possibly to secret world, then started GW 2 and the next big thing will be pandas in WoW. Other big group would be those that wanted to test tor but decided to go back to their old game. I think this is an aspect that is overlooked regularly. The problem is that these MMOs operate in an overcrowded market. People will leave for a variety of different reasons. There are plenty of gamers who will play something and move on to whatever comes next rather quickly. In today's market, they don't have to wait very long before there is something new to try. I myself, have been guilty of supporting this trend on occasion. This does not necessarily speak to SWTOR having issues that made these gamers leave. Edited September 17, 2012 by BuddyRufus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miggzy Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) As long as they deliver on the stuff they have promised then we will be fine. The only content I remember coming out in the last 9 months is novare coast, this is because i am a pvp'r but still its pretty bad because they were listening to the whiners on the forums of course. So much time was spent on the group finder when the problem was actually server population. I dont get why people can just get out there and annoy people in general till they get a group. Also ranked warzones, well thats fine and all but its not much imo if its not cross server where you are actually gonna be placed against the best in the whole game. That is real competition, and ranked is just weak without. Ok so they wasted a lot of time on dumb stuff, and then they shifted there focus on the free to play thing having to build infrastructure for that. GOOD NEWS though guys, we are finally gonna get substantial content updates. TFB is gonna be fun cuz its hard or whatever and makeb+Hk-51 is a substantial expansion to endgame content plus a new warzone and an evennt on Ilum. So we have been waiting a long time but once this free to play thing gets smoothed out we will see some great additions to the game finally. Edited September 17, 2012 by Miggzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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