New to the game - pessimism all around!

[Imhotep]

 

That's just blind guess work though, there nothing to say an "average" WoW player plays for 6 months before quiting. You may as well assume it's 10 years and no one has actually quit yet.

 

WoW and SWTOR box sales are solid.

 

Either way WoW still has over 5m western subs, SWTOR is now down to around ~500,000.... everything.... is.... not.... fine.

 

Ok not to sound fanboyish because Im not but give a source that WoW still has 5 million western subs. I think that number is closer to 2 million. WoW by most accounts is not doing as well as hoped either. The vast majority of that 10 million sub number rests in Asia.

[Codek]

The current standard for the average MMO player:

 

"I’d buy one, play for a month, hit level cap, get decent enough gear to do well in PvP and then get bored pretty soon after."

 

You can talk about fixing the game all you want, people will come and go all the same.

[Goretzu]

Ok not to sound fanboyish because Im not but give a source that WoW still has 5 million western subs. I think that number is closer to 2 million. WoW by most accounts is not doing as well as hoped either. The vast majority of that 10 million sub number rests in Asia.

 

MMOdata

 

To be down to 2m Western subs they've had a big change of subscription balance in the last 2 years.

 

But even if it is now 2m that's still more than SWTOR ever had and 4 times as much as they do have.

 

So again "fine" isn't language I'd use.

 

I want to see SWTOR growing.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Goretzu

[Arkerus]

I am in the same boat as the OP see a lot of flack in the forums.

 

However in the state as the game is now and when I started 1.3.xxx It is a perfectly fine although not without some bugs or class balance problems.

 

The most hate the game gets in the forums is from the PVP community even though those guys will never be happy.

 

The PVE side actually really nice leveling experience is the best of any MMO I have played so far and storylines are great.

 

This is though coming from someone who paid only 15 dollars including 30 days of time for a game that was asking a lot more in the beginning.

I just hope the general negativity is not going to kill the game before I am done with all the classes stroylines.

 

I'm not sure how it happened but there were mistakes and miscalculations on both sides.

 

However, that being true this is the most negative, sarcastic and overall pessimistic forum for an MMO.

 

People demanding ridiculous changes to the game while at the same time complaining its not like WoW or SWG. Funny and sad all at the same time. What most folks don't understand is that a product usually has to target ONE audience. If you fracture your product and target too many people, inevitably you get no one.

[demarcoa]

However, that being true this is the most negative, sarcastic and overall pessimistic forum for an MMO.

 

I agree. I'm not sure why but people spend all their time nerd-raging and none of their time enjoying the game. Frankly, if they want this game to be a WoW clone so bad they can go back to earning Tier 59 armour and leave us alone!

[Imhotep]

MMOdata

 

To be down to 2m Western subs they've had a big change of subscription balance in the last 2 years.

 

But even if it is now 2m that's still more than SWTOR ever had and 4 times as much as they do have.

 

So again "fine" isn't language I'd use.

 

I want to see SWTOR growing.

 

The data on that graph for East and West stops in 2010. WoW lost 1.1 million subs in Q2 2012 and 1.8 million subs in FY 2011. Im not saying WoW is dying because even with all that its still at 9.1 million worldwide subs. I'm saying that there are not 5 million western subs.

 

People want off the WoW model. They want innovation and TOR fell short. THAT on top of the unrealistic expectations of todays MMO gamer is the issue with TOR.

[CosmicKat]

 

People demanding ridiculous changes to the game while at the same time complaining its not like WoW or SWG. Funny and sad all at the same time. What most folks don't understand is that a product usually has to target ONE audience. If you fracture your product and target too many people, inevitably you get no one.

 

I agree with your last point. I just think that's what went wrong with the game. They couldn't decide what audience they wanted so they went the shotgun approach and tried to get everyone.

 

It's the MMO that isn't really mutiplayer.

It's the RP game with no RP functionality.

It's the PvP game with no open world PvP.

It's the story game where you really have no control over the story outcome.

It's the space combat game with space combat mechanics from an Intellivision game.

etc..

[Goretzu]

The data on that graph for East and West stops in 2010. WoW lost 1.1 million subs in Q2 2012 and 1.8 million subs in FY 2011. Im not saying WoW is dying because even with all that its still at 9.1 million worldwide subs. I'm saying that there are not 5 million western subs.

 

If the ratio shown for global subs continued (and there's nothing to suggest it didn't) they'd currently have ~4.5m Western subs (well "active accounts").

 

People want off the WoW model. They want innovation and TOR fell short. THAT on top of the unrealistic expectations of todays MMO gamer is the issue with TOR.

 

Indeed, that is what needs to be fixed.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Goretzu

[turjake]

I dont think people actually know what do they want. They think they want stuff that was in their previous/first game, yet when they got it they get bored and they will blame on the features that are still missing from the game. When you look at the games and those people who keep playing them for a long time, its not any particular set of features that keep people playing. Sure, the generic type of the game, say pvp or hc raiding or whatever is important. Also it would be difficult to persuade someone who hates mmorpg:s to keep playing for a long time. But details are not really that important.

 

Most important feature to keep people playing is their friends. Problem with this game currently is that loads of people leave. So people will find themselves in a situation where most of their friends have left, and eventually they either find new playing friends or they will leave too. How does Bioware stop this downward spiral then? I have no idea. I just doubt implementing any specific feature from some other game will be enough.

[mykaels]

People come to the forums to ***** and go to the game to have fun. I only come to the forums to wade through the endless whining crap just to find some threads that post actual information on topics i have questions on. Get into the game and you will find plenty that are having fun and happy. There is nothing but despair here.

[Trollokdamus]

What most folks don't understand is that a product usually has to target ONE audience. If you fracture your product and target too many people, inevitably you get no one.

Why does it have to target just one audience? It can cater to everyone without any serious losses and do just fine.

 

Take MoP as an example. Hardcore players get HM raids, challenge modes, rated battlegrounds and arenas on high raiting. Casual players of any level get normal raids, raid finder, world bosses, scenarios, heroic dungeons, also challenge modes to some degree, normal battlegrounds, arenas on low raiting, cross-realm zones for better world PvP, dailies, achivements, archeology, pet battles, player farms, epic questlines and more.

 

In that game, you have plenty of things to do on max level even if you can't afford to raid and/or do serious PvP for whatever reason.

In SWTOR, you have dailies and... that's it. Of course, there are also FP HMs and NM OPs in group finder, but honestly, how long does it take to gear up into full Columi? A month at worst, 1-2 weeks at best.

 

Though there are some things in this game, which are made great and are weak points of WoW, i'd really love to see Bioware adopting Blizzard's experience and ways of creating a good quality end-game content for everyone. But, sadly, they won't. They've chosen to go ftp and cash shop way.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Trollokdamus

[Trenter]

MMOdata

 

To be down to 2m Western subs they've had a big change of subscription balance in the last 2 years.

 

But even if it is now 2m that's still more than SWTOR ever had and 4 times as much as they do have.

 

So again "fine" isn't language I'd use.

 

I want to see SWTOR growing.

 

You know, Goretzu, if you want to see TOR growing, then why not start with what you can do about it and stop highlighting how the game has/is losing players? Who knows, maybe we'd gain a few subs from people who otherwise would've been scared off by the doomsaying...

[LordArtemis]

It would probably help if game fans stopped trying to spin the losses. It would also help if game detractors were not forced to defend their common complaints against game fans.

 

Then the negativity might be more constructive and less toxic. IMO the toxicity comes from the banter.

 

Note...game detractors are not innocent in this IMO...especially when simply raging instead of offering specifics.

[Arkerus]

Why does it have to target just one audience? It can cater to everyone without any serious losses and do just fine.

 

Take MoP as an example. Hardcore players get HM raids, challenge modes, rated battlegrounds and arenas on high raiting. Casual players of any level get normal raids, raid finder, world bosses, scenarios, heroic dungeons, also challenge modes to some degree, normal battlegrounds, arenas on low raiting, cross-realm zones for better world PvP, dailies, achivements, archeology, pet battles, player farms, epic questlines and more.

 

In that game, you have plenty of things to do on max level even if you can't afford to raid and/or do serious PvP for whatever reason.

In SWTOR, you have dailies and... that's it. Of course, there are also FP HMs and NM OPs in group finder, but honestly, how long does it take to gear up into full Columi? A month at worst, 1-2 weeks at best.

 

Though there are some things in this game, which are made great and are weak points of WoW, i'd really love to see Bioware adopting Blizzard's experience and ways of creating a good quality end-game content for everyone. But, sadly, they won't. They've chosen to go ftp and cash shop way.

 

WoW's target, while large, is still a very specific demographic. Trust me, that's how all products works.

 

If you try and target everyone, you will usually fail.

 

And I think its been established that WoW itself was a product created at the perfect time when the market was ready for a casual friendly MMO. Subs drive subs. Take wow out of the picture and you can see how hard it is to really bring a product to market.

[LordArtemis]

I dont think people actually know what do they want. They think they want stuff that was in their previous/first game, yet when they got it they get bored and they will blame on the features that are still missing from the game. When you look at the games and those people who keep playing them for a long time, its not any particular set of features that keep people playing. Sure, the generic type of the game, say pvp or hc raiding or whatever is important. Also it would be difficult to persuade someone who hates mmorpg:s to keep playing for a long time. But details are not really that important.

 

Most important feature to keep people playing is their friends. Problem with this game currently is that loads of people leave. So people will find themselves in a situation where most of their friends have left, and eventually they either find new playing friends or they will leave too. How does Bioware stop this downward spiral then? I have no idea. I just doubt implementing any specific feature from some other game will be enough.

 

In my case I can say I kept playing a few bad games because of certain features that were done really well. But I would not argue against your contention that friends are important...even people. If a game feels like people are playing, people seem to go where people are. I think it is one of the reasons WoW remains a juggernaut in the industry.

[Trollokdamus]

WoW's target, while large, is still a very specific demographic. Trust me, that's how all products works.

 

If you try and target everyone, you will usually fail.

 

And I think its been established that WoW itself was a product created at the perfect time when the market was ready for a casual friendly MMO. Subs drive subs. Take wow out of the picture and you can see how hard it is to really bring a product to market.

Well yeah, it's specific. MMO players who enjoy theme park, fantasy worlds, RPG and earning everything they get themselves. WoW is not aimed for sandbox fans and people who buy stuff for real money in order to be number 1. Trying to cater to everyone mentioned above is indeed a bad idea. But doing so to the very same people WoW does is ok, and in a perfect world it would be done by SWTOR too.

[Xyeth]

Everyone seems so pessimistic. Perhaps I missed out on the real fun-time bash that was early Old Republic, but on the whole I am indeed having fun playing the game. There is enough life to not feel like the worlds are completely empty, but also not overcrowded so I don't feel "small". I'm just curious where all the dire vibes are coming from. Personally I'd like to cruise through the story, sidequests, and join a nice RP guild and settle down. What's with all the naysayers?

 

In my case I was hoping the game would be better supported. They promised multiple times frequent updates (monthly at one point) which haven't happened. I'm just tired of promises with little follow through. EA hasn't helped this at all essentially putting a bullet into this game with what they've said about it during investors meetings.

 

I've been playing this game since closed beta starting back in August 2011. There were bugs in the Smuggler storyline which I reported and are still not fixed today. That was surprising and disappointing when I ran across it.

 

I'll still keep playing because it's fun but I don't hold out much hope that the game will improve/expand given the track record since launch. So far it's been the carrot/stick approach without the carrot.

[Eldrenath]

I dont think people actually know what do they want. They think they want stuff that was in their previous/first game, yet when they got it they get bored and they will blame on the features that are still missing from the game.

 

100% agree! It's hilarious to me: people all yelling "We want something different than WoW! Innovate! Give us something new! Something different! We do NOT want WoW! But at the same time you're doing that, you better make darn sure that at LAUNCH you have each and every feature that WoW has right now--even though it took WoW YEARS to build up that many features. So go ahead and innovate, but before you do so, make sure you have EVERYTHING WoW does or we will all go online and universally ridicule you for failing to provide the expected 'standard' features in an MMO--the definition of standard being 'If WoW has it, it is absolutely standard and 100% required'. Oh, and please make sure to do all that AND launch on time without major bugs!"

 

Developers should absolutely positively not listen to players. Listening to players is completely pointless: you do something that half the crowd loves then the other half will burn you in effigy. Then the half that you did listen to will complain that you didn't listen closely enough. MMO gamers are the whiniest, most self-entitled, and impossible consumers to please. The only good way to develop an MMO is get creative devs, make something cool, and then hope gamers like it. Or at least, love to hate it enough that they'll pay a sub just to bash it. Innovate and hope for the best, I'd say. Don't listen to the players. That is the way of folly--and unimaginable whining.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Eldrenath

[Tuscad]

Not trying to poke a bear or anything, but I just want to point out the fact that Bioware seems to be the subject of all the hate for things going wrong. People seem to forget that EA is the puppet master......

 

Nah, the term EA and Bioware is now synonamous with each other. This is how low that Bioware Rep has fallen.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Tuscad

[fresnosmokey]

Not me, of course. Just around me, it feels.

 

I was watching this game pre-launch a while back under the forum username Kanith, but I noticed a lot of stuff got changed including what seems to be a dump of forum users. Interesting.

 

Anyway, I took a stroll on the 15-level trial and enjoyed myself so much I bought the game for the standard $15 and have been strutting my stuff around the Jung Ma PvP-RP server. While activity hasn't been exploding (coming from a guy who played WoW for some five years before quitting in 2009) I have enjoyed the small bit of interaction between characters on the server. There is one thing I've noticed, though:

 

Everyone seems so pessimistic. Perhaps I missed out on the real fun-time bash that was early Old Republic, but on the whole I am indeed having fun playing the game. There is enough life to not feel like the worlds are completely empty, but also not overcrowded so I don't feel "small". I'm just curious where all the dire vibes are coming from. Personally I'd like to cruise through the story, sidequests, and join a nice RP guild and settle down. What's with all the naysayers?

 

I'm like you. I played the 1-15 free then subbed. I feel that, while there are points that need improvement, this game has gotten a lot of things right. What I'm starting to believe, after reading/listening to all the whining, is that a very large chunk of MMO players don't give a you-know-what about anything but endgame. All the work Bioware did to make a game that tells a story and all these people want to do is rush to max level as quickly as possible and start the gear grind that is every single other MMO out there. I mean, why bother moving to a new game if you're going to demand to do the same exact thing that you're leaving behind?

[Codek]

100% agree! It's hilarious to me: people all yelling "We want something different than WoW! Innovate! Give us something new! Something different! We do NOT want WoW! But at the same time you're doing that, you better make darn sure that at LAUNCH you have each and every feature that WoW has right now--even though it took WoW YEARS to build up that many features. So go ahead and innovate, but before you do so, make sure you have EVERYTHING WoW does or we will all go online and universally ridicule you for failing to provide the expected 'standard' features in an MMO--the definition of standard being 'If WoW has it, it is absolutely standard and 100% required'. Oh, and please make sure to do all that AND launch on time without major bugs!"

 

Developers should absolutely positively not listen to players. Listening to players is completely pointless: you do something that half the crowd loves then the other half will burn you in effigy. Then the half that you did listen to will complain that you didn't listen closely enough. MMO gamers are the whiniest, most self-entitled, and impossible consumers to please. The only good way to develop an MMO is get creative devs, make something cool, and then hope gamers like it. Or at least, love to hate it enough that they'll pay a sub just to bash it. Innovate and hope for the best, I'd say. Don't listen to the players. That is the way of folly--and unimaginable whining.

 

Last I checked one of the highest viewed threads on the GW2's forums was complaints about the removal of the holy trinity. Some people are just that dense to not realize that the game was not meant for them....

[Trollokdamus]

a very large chunk of MMO players don't give a you-know-what about anything but endgame. All the work Bioware did to make a game that tells a story and all these people want to do is rush to max level as quickly as possible and start the gear grind that is every single other MMO out there. I mean, why bother moving to a new game if you're going to demand to do the same exact thing that you're leaving behind?

It's not about caring about nothing but endgame or rushing to max level asap. People actually care about the story. They enjoy it, they level a number of alts just to see it. But the thing is, no story lasts forever. When you are done with all the story you're interested in, the only thing left is end-game. Which is a weak point of the game. Why do you think you see so many complains about end-game, and very few about leveling on forums? People complain about things they don't like. About things they like people keep silence and just enjoy them.

Developers should absolutely positively not listen to players. Listening to players is completely pointless: you do something that half the crowd loves then the other half will burn you in effigy. Then the half that you did listen to will complain that you didn't listen closely enough. MMO gamers are the whiniest, most self-entitled, and impossible consumers to please. The only good way to develop an MMO is get creative devs, make something cool, and then hope gamers like it. Or at least, love to hate it enough that they'll pay a sub just to bash it. Innovate and hope for the best, I'd say. Don't listen to the players. That is the way of folly--and unimaginable whining.

It's funny how you're asking devs not to listen to players, and then, right after that, you're telling them how to develop their game.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Trollokdamus

[vingmotor]

im hoping since the start that the haters can go away. dunno whats so special about talking crap about a game that they dont even play.

its a good solid star wars game, and beats all the other boring mmo´s out there. there is just fantasy to choose from anyways.

hope this makes sence.

Haters? just go away. go bother wow or something.

[tumpai]

the forums and other game websites are full of trolls from other games such gw2, wow, http://www.mmorpg.com that hate swtor and want to see it fail. just ignore them.

[tumpai]

It's not about caring about nothing but endgame or rushing to max level asap. People actually care about the story. They enjoy it, they level a number of alts just to see it. But the thing is, no story lasts forever. When you are done with all the story you're interested in, the only thing left is end-game. Which is a weak point of the game. Why do you think you see so many complains about end-game, and very few about leveling on forums? People complain about things they don't like. About things they like people keep silence and just enjoy them.

 

It's funny how you're asking devs not to listen to players, and then, right after that, you're telling them how to develop their game.

 

they dont listen to the player anyways