The trash skipping is staggering.

[Grinstone]

God this is what is stopping me from running HM FP's altogether. I just came back and started running my healer. Get into FP's and people rushing through skipping boss's to get to the end just for coms. Umm I am here for gear and not just for coms. I dont care if you in end game gear already or what not.

 

To be fair, if you're decently geared for HM FPs then just about the only gear that's really worth getting is the columi drop off the last boss. Everything else will be about even with what you have or even a downgrade. That's another reason people tend to skip content.

[bravotwentysev]

Not all the time for a newly specced 50 its improved gear Edited October 22, 2012 by bravotwentysev

[Quraswren]

It's not a bad thing in itself (except when your newbie DPS aggro two packs and run toward you), but it shows how well the game was tested.

 

OF course trash skipping is not a bad thing since most of the time, it's a waste of time.

 

Look at all the trash in EC from the tanks to the mine field. To much trash and not worth the time and the path to the chest is not even in the same route to the actual boss.

 

Then you have the trash from the minefield to Kephesis. The only saving grace there is you can say the chest is worth it but if it was really was worth it, people wouldn't strive to skip it in the manor that was available (and lets just say it took a lot of thought to figure out how to skip that trash)

 

and those are just operation mobs. It gets even worse in some flashpoints with trash that does nothing but create a speed bump and doesn't really make for an interesting encounter.

 

I could see the argument of not skipping a boss but if you don't need a drop off it I also have no problem skipping them. It's not bad design as it gives players some choice in the way they want to run a FP.

 

I've never seen a group deny someone a boss kill if they asked for it.

 

Trash drops nothing worthwhile so there not worth killing. There are not rewards for killing them in most cases worth the time it takes to actually kill them. This goes double for FP cause at least in operations you have a chance at chest loot.

 

There is simply no reason to kill every single mob in an instance and if it's skippable. I don't think it has anything to do with game testing. It's just something gamers was to have in small portions not pack after pack.

 

If you had smaller amounts of trash but more interesting as an encounter it would not be so bad but just copy and pasting some mobs in your way is really not the way to do it and when done that way, gamers will skip it.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Quraswren

[DrewFromPhilly]

I'd say the vast majority of the time my groupmates are cool about mobs and ask if ppl wanna do skippable stuff, and when I'm on my healer or tank I'm always willing to do whatever content ppl need. Like, I haven't done the turret boss in D7 in a while but every time someone said they wanted to we did.

 

Every now and then I see people whining about a trash mob being pulled, but I'm always quick to defend whoever did it. Why more people don't tell the whiny spoiled children to stop being whiny spoiled children I don't understand tbh.

[anstalt]

Trash can serve many purposes:

 

1) Artbitrarily increase time to clear

 

2) Introduce new mechanics

 

3) Give a living feeling to an area

 

4) Provide experience (in game i.e. leveling up)

 

5) Provide experience (as in training for the player)

 

6) Provide fun / challenge

 

Most of the trash fights in the flashpoints of TOR seem to be there simply to increase time to clear and give a living feeling to space. I am 100% happy for all these mobs to be skipped because they don't serve much of a purpose.

 

The fun / challenge is the ultimate goal of trash, however fun is both subjective and short lived, whilst challenge is also subjective. Its almost impossible to create fun and challenging trash pulls which dont feel like a massive pointless grind.

 

I personally feel like the only mandatory trash pulls should be the ones which introduce new mechanics and ones which serve as a challenge. Most bosses in most MMOs have trash before them that introduce you to certain mechanics of the boss, and likewise many bosses have tough trashpulls before them that serve as a gear / skill check.

 

 

Best designed trash I've ever seen was in Ost Dunhoth, a 12man raid in LOTRO during Mirkwood expansion. That place was a 6 boss raid with only 9 trash pulls in it. Each trash pull was very challenging, requiring tactics of their own and were easy to wipe on, but because there were so few you didn't feel it was a grind.

[psandak]

I agree that the ability to skip them is there by design.

 

This just proves that if you hand a player any kind of option or freeom, the player wlll stick themselves in the eye with it and then complain that Bioware let them do it.

 

Seriously though. The average modern MMO player plays for reward gratification over actual embrace and enjoyment of the content. There is little appreciation to relax and embrace the experience... they just want to grind for quick rewads. So Bioware took the right approach (meeting the players needs), even though it enables players to further marginalize their in game experience. IMO, trash mobs should be ganked and killed because they are there. But most people (and well before this game very launched) want to rush rush rush through an instance. This is why I don't PUG in MMOs anymore. I don't need some weenie in the group constantly yelling "go GO GO" and prodding the tank with a cattle prod to pull.

 

But there are some FPs where sneaking around the mobs actually fits the FP.

 

Taral V springs to mind - Oteg says he would like to limit the killing as much as possible. As a matter of fact, the issue comes up in one of the conversations that killing is going to become more likely and Oteg is OK with it.

 

In Battle of Ilum, you are trying to sneak in a steal a stealth shuttle, killing every mob and boss in your path is not very sneaky

 

Which leads to False Emperor, you are using a stealth craft to get on board the space station. To face off against Malgus, sneaking around makes sense.

So, if I am watching a TV show, and I skip the commercials, am I consuming the content too fast?

 

not a very good analogy because in order to skip the commercials you either have to DVR the show and delay watching it or you have to watch it online usually a week after release. comparing this to FPs - you get into an FP, if you want to skip trash you have to wait 15 minutes and then you can go go go otherwise you have to kill all trash.

 

God this is what is stopping me from running HM FP's altogether. I just came back and started running my healer. Get into FP's and people rushing through skipping boss's to get to the end just for coms. Umm I am here for gear and not just for coms. I dont care if you in end game gear already or what not.

 

Those in this situation need to speak up more. every time I run an FP I ask the question "quick run?" and nine times out of ten the answer is yes (or no response). Playing a tank I have some say and if someone like you were to speak up and say, "um, I would really like to kill all bosses." my response would be, "fine, we will." if others have an issue with that, TFB, they can leave, but they need to realize that the extra time it would take to kill all bosses is most likely less than a DPS having to wait for the lockout and the time it takes to find another group.

 

It's called communication, if you don't use it, then shame on you.

[simplius]

I agree that the ability to skip them is there by design.

 

This just proves that if you hand a player any kind of option or freeom, the player wlll stick themselves in the eye with it and then complain that Bioware let them do it.

 

Seriously though. The average modern MMO player plays for reward gratification over actual embrace and enjoyment of the content. There is little appreciation to relax and embrace the experience... they just want to grind for quick rewads. So Bioware took the right approach (meeting the players needs), even though it enables players to further marginalize their in game experience. IMO, trash mobs should be ganked and killed because they are there. But most people (and well before this game very launched) want to rush rush rush through an instance. This is why I don't PUG in MMOs anymore. I don't need some weenie in the group constantly yelling "go GO GO" and prodding the tank with a cattle prod to pull.

 

but it was bioware , who made the stick, and earned money by selling it

 

yes the "gearheads" are the loudest part of the players,,but not necessarely the BIGGEST part

 

the current gamedesign was made made for the current playerbase,,a match made in heaven

 

it doesnt look like a long term relationship though

[bravotwentysev]

Those in this situation need to speak up more. every time I run an FP I ask the question "quick run?" and nine times out of ten the answer is yes (or no response). Playing a tank I have some say and if someone like you were to speak up and say, "um, I would really like to kill all bosses." my response would be, "fine, we will." if others have an issue with that, TFB, they can leave, but they need to realize that the extra time it would take to kill all bosses is most likely less than a DPS having to wait for the lockout and the time it takes to find another group.

 

It's called communication, if you don't use it, then shame on you.

 

I agree this why I started asking upfront. Here is the responses I got over the weekend...Kick voted out...complaining leading to tank or DPS leaving.....whinning of they are just here for coms.

 

I say oh well I will wait for another group that actually wants to run the fp (skipping trash is ok) the right way.

[jeniyagyu]

Sometimes I am in a hurry and sometimes I am not.

 

Yesterday I had a group doing HM D7 and we did the bonus boss for fun. It was fun since I had never done that boss before and it took us only 10 - 15 (I believe) extra minutes to complete the FP with the boss. Killing EVERY boss.

 

But yeah T5 and BoI are the worse for skipping, (and Maelstorm Prison if you happen to get two stealthies to CC stuff)

[Moondragon]

For me it depends really.

 

Pre-50

Just depends really. It's always kind of worth it to me because you'll get a random drop, you'll always get cash money, and xp is xp. So it doesn't really matter to me. I think I'll skip the occasional mob to kind of get that halfway point between constantly moving/progressing and still getting the XP and Cash from the trash. Mini-bosses I'll always push for getting. Doesn't matter if it "doesn't drop anything good". It's still good xp. It's still money. And it's still a chance to get something good/fun.

 

Post-50

Unless it's a persons first time in the FP/Op...I fully agree with avoiding trash...but I'm torn at a point. For myself, I fully endorse killing trash if it means a Bonus boss is unlocked and we get to fight him. But I'm also for killing all "Boss" types in FPs/Ops, whereas a lot of people would rather skip Bonus & Mini bosses. To me, it's cash, it's crystals, it's possible commendations and it's a possibility at descent gear. Plus it's fun. Makes me laugh when people want to skip these bosses because I've had 2-3 times where we did bonus boss/mini-boss and actually got some pretty nice gear off him.

 

Basically, it comes down to some groups just wanting to be "Efficient" @ 50. I get it...but I don't necessarily enjoy it. And, at times, I disagree with it.

[Mavery]

When you understand how gearing in this game is done the whole skip thing should not bother you.

 

The vast majority of players enter a HM FP because they want the 5 BH comms. That's the entire reason they are there. Why wouldn't they want to be in and out as fast as possible? It makes sense.

 

SM Ops in this game are absolutely trivial. There is a reason why EV/KP are in the group finder. These Ops shower you with columi gear. You will get more gear from a SM Op then you will from a plethora of HM FPs. Then when you clear the SM Ops you should have more gear enough gear to run SM EC / TFB which will provide you with better gear than any of the tier 1 FPs.

 

This is why people skip. The drops in tier 1 FPs (51s/56s) are replaced so fast from doing Ops. It's not worth the effort to go do it. The vast majority of people just want the comms.

 

I will consent the aggro range is kind of ridiculous. I expect it to be patched. But the behaviour will not change. It will always be skip skip skip.

[ShawnSixtyTwo]

Trash skipping is fine. It's trash.

 

The BOSS skipping is staggering. Taral V in particular makes me feel a little dirty on the inside when it pops and the group doesn't even want to fight the final boss. The objectives should require these bosses to be killed, otherwise why are they even there?

[RikuvonDrake]

This is actually kind of a funny story, I did a quick run (really a quick run) trough Battle of Ilum with three good geared ppl from my own guild, we skipped boss 1 (the ulgy pig dude) boss 2 (the tag team with towers), boss 3 (guy with shield and spawns adds) then we had to kill boss 4 and boss 5. In total I think we killed about fifteen normal mobs and two bosses, during a 15 minutes run on a Hard Mode Flashpoint, sure we are well over geared (campaign/dread guard) but still it is kind of bad.

 

I agree, you should be able to skip pacs of mobs, but to be able to skip three out of five main bosses? Naa that don't sound to good in my ears.

Edited October 23, 2012 by RikuvonDrake

[Slurmez]

You want to annihilate every living thing in a FP then make a team and run it your way, if people want to avoid conflict then thats their choice, even from a RP aspect both have their merits.

 

Personally I wish people would stop moaning about how others play the game, it should be of no consequence to them and when it is its inevitably them wanting to force their play style onto others, make your own team and avoid the groupfinder if its a big deal.

[LarryRow]

When you understand how gearing in this game is done the whole skip thing should not bother you.

 

The vast majority of players enter a HM FP because they want the 5 BH comms. That's the entire reason they are there. Why wouldn't they want to be in and out as fast as possible? It makes sense.

 

SM Ops in this game are absolutely trivial. There is a reason why EV/KP are in the group finder. These Ops shower you with columi gear. You will get more gear from a SM Op then you will from a plethora of HM FPs. Then when you clear the SM Ops you should have more gear enough gear to run SM EC / TFB which will provide you with better gear than any of the tier 1 FPs.

 

This is why people skip. The drops in tier 1 FPs (51s/56s) are replaced so fast from doing Ops. It's not worth the effort to go do it. The vast majority of people just want the comms.

 

I will consent the aggro range is kind of ridiculous. I expect it to be patched. But the behaviour will not change. It will always be skip skip skip.

 

This guy gets it.

[DarthWalt]

If you're level 50, chances are you're not going to get anything significant off trash mobs. You might get lucky and get a cool drop, but you'll probably get more out of the time saved to run another FP. I am pretty sure they purposely built the side routes so that people could skip trash if they wanted to.

 

this statment is the problem. So what your saying is the only point to the game is better loot. So why play anything at all why not cry about it till they let you stand there and click something so a little chest pops out you open it and maybe you get something maybe you dont.

 

If your bypassing mobs because you think you wonmt get a loot drop from them maybe you missed the point of the game?

[LarryRow]

this statment is the problem. So what your saying is the only point to the game is better loot. So why play anything at all why not cry about it till they let you stand there and click something so a little chest pops out you open it and maybe you get something maybe you dont.

 

If your bypassing mobs because you think you wonmt get a loot drop from them maybe you missed the point of the game?

 

The point of the game is to enjoy challenging content. You need gear to take on the challenge. HM FP's are not that challenging for the gear people tend to bring to them, but reward currency for top tier gear. Are you following me, son?

[Paintcheck]

Doing any HM FP after the umpteenth time isn't "content" so I can still complain about lack of content even if I'm skipping trash.

 

Agreed. I've run every HM dozens of times and I don't need gear from any of them, I'm just there for the comms.

 

That said if someone in my group wants/needs gear from a boss I will not say "No, **** you" and I would imagine most people would probably be willing to help if you say at the start you need stuff.

 

If you don't want to skip the boss then don't skip it. Don't make me have to spend 3 times as long clearing trash in an FP just because you want to fight more mobs. I run with a guild 9/10 so my skipping is not hurting anyone in the group finder looking for loot and while the FPs were cool the first few times, but at this point I have them all memorized. I want to get in and out as fast as possible for my comms.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Paintcheck

[Grinstone]

Trash skipping is fine. It's trash.

 

The BOSS skipping is staggering. Taral V in particular makes me feel a little dirty on the inside when it pops and the group doesn't even want to fight the final boss. The objectives should require these bosses to be killed, otherwise why are they even there?

 

You've grouped up with people who go into HM FPs but don't complete them, or do you only see this in Taral V? That's surprising in either case.

 

The objectives do require the final bosses to be killed. If you don't defeat the final boss - General Edikar in the case of Taral V - you don't complete the FP and you get no credit for it.

[Kitru]

The objectives do require the final bosses to be killed. If you don't defeat the final boss - General Edikar in the case of Taral V - you don't complete the FP and you get no credit for it.

 

You can skip General Edikar and get your completion just fine. He's not required explicitly to complete the FP. He's just guarding the room that the person you need to talk to is in. If you just run past him and up next to the guy to talk to, he resets when he gets onto the ramp heading up, and you can talk to the Doctor to end it just fine. I've done it no less than 5 times in the last week (and it always manages to weird people out when I show them how to do it). It's honestly possible to skip *every single boss* in Taral V. Whether that's a good thing is up for discussion.

 

With all of the discussion and the comparative ease with which most of it could be addressed by the devs (changing spawn locations, expanding visual range of specific enemies, adding invisible walls and/or specific geometry to block routes, changing specific mission requirements to require boss kills), you have to wonder if it's WAI or simply not an appreciable concern for the developers (just look at how the developers tweaked FE's completion to require the click rather than just the Malgus kill). It may not be exactly what the developers *intended*, but it's evident by their actions (or lack thereof) that they're not really bothered by it.

[Kyanzes]

It can be annoying. You know that boss in Lost Island that sits in a cage? It's the one after the robot. I have never been in a group that would have done. Not once.

 

Prolly there are several others (I probably don't even know about) in other FPs as well. There's the one where you take down a computer core (the one with two huge guns), and at some point you pass a boss, a robot standing in your way and there's a console nearby. I have never been in a group that took down that monster. It's always skipped.

 

Or that big worm boss in the Foundry (when you travel between buildings in the open).

 

One more thing: whoever came up with that freaking robot boss in Lost Island should be shipped to Syberia ASAP. The hardest FP boss ever. The good doctor Lorrik is nothing compared to that freaking robot. Especially for melee, that robot sucks butt. Once you beat it with the PUG you can be 97% sure you'll see loot from Lorrik.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Kyanzes

[LarryRow]

One more thing: whoever came up with that freaking robot boss in Lost Island should be shipped to Syberia ASAP. The hardest FP boss ever.

 

I'm not sure if he was nerfed at all, but since 1.4 I have done him twice and one-shotted both times. I think the warning circle for the lightning ball is extremely helpful. Just go in there with a plan, and make sure the freaking tank is only kiting after Incinerate.

 

just look at how the developers tweaked FE's completion to require the click rather than just the Malgus kill

 

Now you've piqued my curiosity - any idea why they did this?

[LadyTributary]

Now you've piqued my curiosity - any idea why they did this?

 

It's because people were having problems not getting a completion if they were dead (generally from falling) and unable to be revived without leaving the instance.

[Grinstone]

You can skip General Edikar and get your completion just fine. He's not required explicitly to complete the FP.

 

I was not aware of that. The More You Know!

 

Still, I wouldn't skip him because I expect that people will be interested in the gear he drops, even if it's for their companions rather than themselves. I know I would be if I were on a relatively new 50. But yes, in this case I have to say that being able to skip the flashpoint's "Big Bad" is a bit much.

[Willhousefour]

Why even have that trash there if the intent is to skip it? I don't understand why Bioware would put mobs in the game it didn't intend for you to kill. Just take them out, so we don't have to walk this elaborate tightrope to skip a few packs.

 

I was vote-kicked for not knowing the proper route to skip the trash on HM Ilum and kept dieing to that stupid giant robot in the beginning (I joined an in progress group and other three had already skpped by him). Apparently you can squeeze by it if you keep holding up while riding on the hill next to him (I've always killed him since). I didn't like being kicked at all especially after having waited ~30 minutes in the queue and pretty much cursed out the initiator of the kick until he put me on ignore. So I definately think you should kill groups that someone is having trouble getting by.

 

On the other hand, it does save you time and some packs are easy to avoid.