Force Wave/Overload Change in 1.4 - An appeal to reconsider

[L-RANDLE]

Its frontal 120 degree cone that reach out 15m. I have tested it and love it. The knockback on it is 8m from where the enemy is knocked back. e.g if enemy is15m away, overload -> 23m . 5m away overload->13m.

 

With little practice I think most will find it pretty useful... its no longer a real 360 degree oh **** button per say. Position yourself better it works fine.

 

So after if I perform this while melee is at 2m+, melee now can:

Force Leap/Dispatch/Sabre Throw.

Smells like a "slight, but deadly nerf" to me and the end of any effective kiting.

 

My guardian will be in BiS WH enhancements, thanks to my Sage. At least I get to swap them for cheaper. This is going to be epic fail!!! LOLOLOLOL

[DroidDreamer]

So after if I perform this while melee is at 2m+, melee now can:

Force Leap/Dispatch/Sabre Throw.

Smells like a "slight, but deadly nerf" to me and the end of any effective kiting.

 

Can you Force Leap through the root of Electric Bindings?

[Briljin]

I have to agree with the OP. Here is my reasoning behind it. Ranged classes have AOE knockbacks, and melee have aoe stuns.

 

Wait a second. Where is the Shadow/Sin AE stun hiding?!? Matter of fact, our ranged stun is being nerfed into to 1/3rd its current range.

 

I think the change is intended to make the knockback better. Everyone is crying chicken little when they haven't even seen it in action yet or tried it out at all.

 

My real concern is the game tends to suffer from poor player positioning updates during big fights. I know that in these situations I will often see my "shadow strike" not working because the game tells me I am not behind the target, only for it to finally update a second later...

[Nissyen]

you forgot the instant free self heal and force speed cooldown reduction that offsets this.

 

No we did not forget those other abilities.... This ability is great for knocking back enemies around you.... If they make this change, enemies will now attack you from the sides or back to avoid this (the current method, they can't avoid). So no, if this change is made it will not be a buff... it will be more like a nerf.

[warultima]

No one is forcing you so you cannot wait till after they force charge then KB.

To me its definitely better for me to Overload, and they HAVE TO use force charge to get back to me and not Overload, and they take 1 step forward and I am back at 4m range to them so they can even save their charge for when I really got away.

 

But everyone plays differently, I like it I know how I would do to use it effectively so it essentially becomes a "buff".

Certainly many would find this change a "nerf" because it doesnt suit their playstyle and I am not THEM so I really cant speak for those thats calling the sky is falling tho.

 

Edit: especially BW is known for destroying an entire Sorc playstyle like they did in 1.2. So mark my words.

 

WarUltima: No class changes in the history of SWTOR that got put on PTS is ever reverted/changed/ or altered in any way before they push it to live servers.

 

Maybe 1.4 will be different and make history of this game. But whatever you see now is whatever you will get in live. They do not NEED your feedback, all they have to do is follow their holy Metrics and invisible unknown (or might be virtual) internal testers.

Edited September 14, 2012 by warultima

[Nissyen]

No one is forcing you so you cannot wait till after they force charge then KB.

To me its definitely better for me to Overload, and they HAVE TO use force charge to get back to me and not Overload, and they take 1 step forward and I am back at 4m range to them so they can even save their charge for when I really got away.

 

But everyone plays differently, I like it I know how I would do to use it effectively so it essentially becomes a "buff".

Certainly many would find this change a "nerf" because it doesnt suit their playstyle and I am not THEM so I really cant speak for those thats calling the sky is falling tho.

 

Edit: especially BW is known for destroying an entire Sorc playstyle like they did in 1.2. So mark my words.

 

WarUltima: No class changes in the history of SWTOR that got put on PTS is ever reverted/changed/ or altered in any way before they push it to live servers.

 

Maybe 1.4 will be different and make history of this game. But whatever you see now is whatever you will get in live. They do not NEED your feedback, all they have to do is follow their holy Metrics and invisible unknown (or might be virtual) internal testers.

 

You certainly win an award for being a pretentious *&^% And I'm aware of the little fact that they do not need my opinion, but by virture of these forums they have opened the door to recieving my opinion, and I will voice my opinion. Have a wonderful day

[warultima]

You certainly win an award for being a pretentious *&^% And I'm aware of the little fact that they do not need my opinion, but by virture of these forums they have opened the door to recieving my opinion, and I will voice my opinion. Have a wonderful day

 

thats all you can think of?

No constructive argument at all?

No rebuttal to my actual PTS test?

Typical...

1/10

Edited September 14, 2012 by warultima

[leto_cleon]

Can you Force Leap through the root of Electric Bindings?

 

Electric Bindings/Force Wake is only for Sorcerers/Sages. Assassins/Shadows do not have that skill. Consequently with the new Force Wave knocking back further, all that needs to be done is for a gap closer to be used again.

 

 

Try playing Guardian or Juggernaut and hitting force push, just to see the target fly in the complete opposite direction of where you're facing. *THEN* you'll have something to complain about.

 

I have a Guardian and yes that happens. It just proves that position and facing is not being tracked properly.

 

Ehrmagehrd I haz to aim mah knockberk!!! Tooo much wehrk!!!!"

 

The point being made is that the aimed cone is too easily countered and a reduction to the defensive capabilities of Inquisitors/Consulars. Its not that its too much work to use. The ability as it is has a delay and timing it properly does take skill. A change to an instant removes some skill. So comparing a conal instant with a delayed 360 ability and saying that the former needs more skill is a misnomer. Its apples and oranges.

 

Where this is a skill reduction is now other classes more easily being able to go against Inquisitors/Consular. 2/3s of the body is now exposed as opposed to a 360 defence against melee every 20s (assuming that its not being used against those with full resolve).

[Antipodes]

Can we get an option to try out new way then make a permanent decision to your character which one you take? I'd be happy if all the keyboard turners choose the old delayed 360 knockback then cry about it a month later when they see good players using the new knockback effectively.

[Darth_Philar]

I would like to see some confirmation of the claim that the knockback effect is now 8m instead of 4m as that would be a major nerf to our SW/JK metagame and a slight buff to our PT/VG metagame.

 

It is not referenced in any patch note, so a Dev confirmation or a video will suffice as evidence.

[warultima]

I would like to see some confirmation of the claim that the knockback effect is now 8m instead of 4m as that would be a major nerf to our SW/JK metagame and a slight buff to our PT/VG metagame.

 

It is not referenced in any patch note, so a Dev confirmation or a video will suffice as evidence.

 

Yes its indeed 8m as I tested myself on PTS. No I am not making a video just for you.

Tell yourself whatever you like to believe tho. Or wait till the changes hit live server. Or pray that someone gives a **** enough makes a video for you.

 

But anyways, someone who knows more than you do here is telling you its 8m on PTS.

[Darth_Philar]

Yes its indeed 8m as I tested myself on PTS. No I am not making a video just for you.

Tell yourself whatever you like to believe tho. Or wait till the changes hit live server. Or pray that someone gives a **** enough makes a video for you.

 

But anyways, someone who knows more than you do here is telling you its 8m on PTS.

 

So... you have no proof to your claim?

 

I figured as much.

 

Just another flat-earther who relies on appeal to authority logical fallacies to suppress those who dissent. Typical bully.

[L-RANDLE]

Can you Force Leap through the root of Electric Bindings?

 

No, but that also assumes there is no CC break available and you actually land it, which is still questionable at this point as my Guard will be riding Sage/Sorc buttox as much as possible. The closer I am the harder it will be to land.

 

Bindings also don't root saber throw and/or dispatch. Smash/Sweep spec with immunity on leap specd are going to be a HUGE problem. No Sage/Sorc can afford to eat one, or even both of those and we don't have to right now, and all top of that they buffed Dispatch. I am not asking to take a Dispatch at any time, so it means I am almost forced to use FW in the beginning or middle of the encounter before my health is at 40-50% or risk dying. If that is the case, I am filling resolve for them too early IMO. This is a bad idea.

[warultima]

So... you have no proof to your claim?

 

I figured as much.

 

Just another flat-earther who relies on appeal to authority logical fallacies to suppress those who dissent. Typical bully.

 

If that makes you sleep better at night kiddo.

I am telling you its 8m since you are purely clueless. Again wait till the change hits server then.

Have a nice day kiddo.

[Darth_Philar]

If that makes you sleep better at night kiddo.

I am telling you its 8m since you are purely clueless. Again wait till the change hits server then.

Have a nice day kiddo.

 

Oh look, more typical bullying tactics.

 

You're in need of an attitude adjustment if you want people to respect your nearly meaningless online opinion.

 

A simple confirmation of your claim is all that was requested, but you felt the need to resort to insults and flippant dismissals. Enjoy life as the dour outcast, because that's where it is headed.

[ArchangelLBC]

So... you have no proof to your claim?

 

I figured as much.

 

Just another flat-earther who relies on appeal to authority logical fallacies to suppress those who dissent. Typical bully.

 

Cool, someone took an intro argument course but wasn't paying attention. That wasn't a fallacious appeal to authority, unless we are not prepared to assume that he is an expert in the difference between 4 and 8. He didn't say "this one guy I totally know totally tested it and said it was 8m knockback now". He said that HE tested it and it was 8. Up to you whether you believe him or not, which is true of all claims made by all people in cases where you are not prepared or capable of attempting to replicate the results.

 

If what you posted is true, that the knockback effect has also been changed from 4m to 8m then it is going to be impossible to kite a single SW/JK going forward since you will always be pushing them out of melee range and into jump range, which allows them to simply immediately return to melee range.

 

I disagree here. You will have to adjust how you play because now you need to remember they have a leap, but if you save it for when they leap you should be fine. Well you'll be fine against Maras/Sents because they aren't immune to knockbacks like certain Juggs/Guardians are. For them though you have force speed on a shorter cooldown. I just don't see how the game has changed at all since before nothing was really stopping them from waiting a second for you to run out to 10m and leaping in assuming your knockback hadn't blown their leap, which is the only situation where your complaint makes much sense to me. Pushing Maras/Sents out past 10m is actually preferable since Crippling Throw (Deadly Throw for Maras?) has a 10m max range, as does Blade Storm/Force Scream. Now you can knock them back as they start their Gore > Ravage > Force Scream combo and their whole burst is nerfed because they were literally out of range for all of it.

Edited September 14, 2012 by ArchangelLBC

[UGLYMRJ]

I really wish there was an option to take the new overload or not when 1.4 is released... and be stuck with your decision until 1.5.

[Sock_Bramson]

As fun as the personal tete a tete is, I think I'll refrain from joining in.

 

Instead, I will respectfully disagree with the notion that these changes will ruin sorc v JK/SW situations. Even if the KB stays at 4m, you'll still be able to use it effectively against a leaper as long as you take .5 seconds to face them. In fact, you'll be able to mess up peoples' plans even sooner with the 15m reach.

 

If it is an 8m KB and you're worried about losing the <10m sweet spot, simply wait a bit to use Overload, maybe take a few steps forward to be extra safe.

 

A 15m KB will be more than a slightly helpful against PTs; I plan on annoying the hell out of them with it.

 

I know people have claimed that using the new KB v ranged enemies won't have any uses, but as I've said, I disagree. All the WZs have plenty of LoS opportunities available. Use the KB to move them somewhere where they'll lose LoS with you and your teammates; if it's a healer, make them lose LoS with their teammates.

 

Basically, the only thing we're losing with the change is the ability to knock people off of our six. As long as we go from six to midnight, we'll still be able to use it defensively. Sure, I'll miss the "oh poop" function of the old KB, but by using the new sprint and insta heal, a slight change in playstyle will keep things from changing too much on the defensive end. Plus, we gain lots of extra utility that we didn't have before. (which I've already gone over in other posts; keeping this one shorter because I'm on my phone)

 

I do think that dps sorcs need some more love with their actual damage. However, I don't think these changes are going to hurt them, and should actually help some. (especially 20sec sprint, even without slow immunity. Speaking from my own experience, I noticed a huge difference from changing my spec in 1.2 to include the reduction on sprint's CD)

 

Oh, and before Larry jumps in with his "expert" opinion: no, I still haven't said anything about pushing people through pillars, no matter how many times you accuse me of it in a poor attempt to discredit my opinion. (ok, so I didn't resist the urge to call someone out. He's just too silly not to. )

[Russkiier]

Does anyone have any experience on the PTS to talk about these changes and how much they affect gameplay?

[Jordalx]

you forgot the instant free self heal and force speed cooldown reduction that offsets this.

 

No one gives a flying crap about some heal as a Sorc/sage. Force Leap has a lower cooldown still than the Force speed after 1.4. Sorc/Sage needs increased damage, and survivability. However, I'd be content with the damage.

[warultima]

I think many dont understand some of the arguments here from DPS Sorcs/Sages.

 

Some (majority?)DPS only sorc players that dont give a flying fk about heals. Wanna bet many DPS sorcs will take a "stance" where the stance buffs them to comparable BURST and acceptable survivability (to be on par as the FotM kids) but completely disables all heals.

 

But either way its obvious BW is too scared to give Sorc any kind of damage buff (while interestingly giving Sin a ton of it in their upcoming deception buff) so BW basically took the other route. Basically telling sorcs that they need to run moar and they get a 2nd bubble.

 

The new 15m cone with 8m knockback overload can be used much more aggressively but you have to know how to use it.

 

At least for me the old overload is like a tool to get people that got on me off me. The new overload to me however can be used to get melees that got on me off me as well as using it to prevent them of getting to me. I like the increased KB distance and longer reach of it but that's just me.

Edited September 15, 2012 by warultima

[Veniras]

Not once have I seen some other class complain about being on the other end of it.

 

I can tell you that a concealment operative/scrapper scoundrel has an issue with it. We might be about to stealth up behind you, then lose our stealth as you knockback the intended guys that are in front of you, yet also hitting us.

 

You can say it was a bonus, but based on the reasoning for the change this was clearly not intended gameplay.

[DroidDreamer]

I can tell you that a concealment operative/scrapper scoundrel has an issue with it. We might be about to stealth up behind you, then lose our stealth as you knockback the intended guys that are in front of you, yet also hitting us.

 

You can say it was a bonus, but based on the reasoning for the change this was clearly not intended gameplay.

 

Actually, sometimes I drop a knockback to hit the stealther nearby. That's a legit tactic. It's out the window now.

[Sock_Bramson]

Actually, sometimes I drop a knockback to hit the stealther nearby. That's a legit tactic. It's out the window now.

 

Erm, no it's not. If you know there's a stealther nearby, why don't you just point the new 15m cone in his general direction before you use it? Same effect as now.

[DroidDreamer]

Erm, no it's not. If you know there's a stealther nearby, why don't you just point the new 15m cone in his general direction before you use it? Same effect as now.

 

You're smarter than that. The answer is that Overload today is a 360 AOE that hits an area all around you. The re-design is a cone that could miss some one right next to you. Some Stealthers have accelerated move speed so backing up to better position the cone is a harder proposition than nailing a whole area immediately.

 

We'll have to adapt, using Force Storm instead, but there is little question that this particular use has had its defensive utility removed.