1.4 Nerfing classes for PVP reasons, impacts PVE.../sigh

[well]

Even more simple:

 

Separate PvP skills from PvE skills effects.

 

Stop it!No common sense is allowed!:mad:

It worked in other games.I don't know why they can't do it in this game.

[BaronV]

I made a comment quite similar to theirs and I play quite a good healing Sorc, thanks. Just because you don't like our answer of just TURN YOUR CAMERA to use your knockback means we don't play a sorc is just an idiocy or "rubbish" as you put it.

 

I seem to have offended you.... that was not my intention. However the contemptuous, condescending and downright arrogant nature of most of the "Your already getting insta-heal! Quit complaining and just turn your camera FFS"comments (such as the one i responded to) is equally if not more offensive to players like myself who's play-styles will be drastically affected by such changes.

 

Perhaps you care to enlighten us on how your play style is? Maybe your a PvP player by chance? Or just have a different way of playing. Do enlighten us please!

 

Please enlighten us as to how these changes are better for you or at the very least don't affect you negatively.

 

Because I have discussed this issue extensively with many main sith sorc players on my server and pretty much all of them feel the same way and are against the changes (only a question of by how much). So I think my accusation of most (its unfair to say all as you have pointed out) of the people who make such arrogant and condescending remarks about people voicing out against changes that drastically affect them are arrogant trolls who have little understanding of the fundamental reasons people are against it (or they just dont care) - and its fair to assume that its because they dont play the class as their main. Perhaps you are a sorc in the minority?

 

And how about responding to the points I raised that you happily snipped out when quoting me?!

[wainot-keel]

 

You forget that the stupid cone means that when surrounded by mobs (when the tank loses aggro, or when playing solo) we can no longer overload/force wave to blast away enemies; giving us breathing space and a chance to re-control the fight.

 

 

Or in Lost Island, at the phase when the flaming zombies are closing on you from everywhere. Our heals are slow, we can't cast them on the move. Without enough breathing room, the 2.7, 2.6 seconds from Innervate could mean get stunned by them.

Will the FP be healable by sorcs ? Absolutely. But it doesn't mean this is not a nerf and certainly doesn't mean it'll be "more fun" like they say.

 

Even more simple:

 

Separate PvP skills from PvE skills effects.

 

I read a while ago people suggested this during beta. But they didn't do it. I don't understand why. PvP and PvE are very different environments. It only makes sense to have them work differently. And they definetely know that screwing everybody because of PvP aggravates many people.

[Lyons_Crest]

I for one do not favor theses changes from what I've seen...

 

The Inquisitor class especially, changing overload will have a terrible affect in pvp for the inquisitor class as it will not defend them or knock back / stun those that are behind them, which was a glorious move that served inquisitor class very well up to this new change.

 

The idea of creating new spells or buffs that will allow a player to become immune to stuns or interrupts is crazy ! Doesn't our support team get flooded enough with tickets of people hacking the game? Is that not enough surely this will only increase the surge of those who cheat. I for one do not like this idea nor do I see how it will help anyone else in Pve or PvP.

[BaronV]

 

I read a while ago people suggested this during beta. But they didn't do it. I don't understand why. PvP and PvE are very different environments. It only makes sense to have them work differently. And they definetely know that screwing everybody because of PvP aggravates many people.

 

Well it could just be that they dont particularly care because for the longest time they appeared to think that they can tell US what is fun and what is not (and not the other way round)... and they seem be going down that same route again...

 

but then again when Bioware can have the likes of Stanley Woo working there.... remember this infamous comment:

it is not your job to dictate what content we include or don’t include in our games. Game development is not a collaborative effort between developers and gamers; it is a dictatorship, where we alone determine what content goes into our game. (excerpt).

 

Glad they sacked that arrogant good for nothing.

[LordArtemis]

Here is the problem. This change, like almost any change that effects both play styles, will require further changes for balance and control issues down the road.

 

...and it will be a never ending cycle.

 

You CAN NOT make changes that are universal across all play types and expect them to be balanced. The very nature of PVP vs PVE play is counter to balance. What works in PVP rarely works in PVE and visa versa.

 

This is a fundamental change to the very core of PVE solo gameplay for those classes, and you can bet that problems will emerge as a result, and more changes will have to be made and/or adjustments.

 

...which could have been prevented in the first place by simply applying two rule sets instead...have them function differently in each play style.

 

Perhaps Bioware feels they are immune to the problems that almost every other major MMO has faced with balance issues in a gear centric game with one rule set...

[LordArtemis]

Ahh, the fun one! Okay as I pointed out several times now (like above... "lol, omg! Turning your camera and aiming is SO MUCH MORE DIFFICULT"). Yeah, you're losing the 360° knockback and getting a 120° cone with a 15-meter range. You should RARELY need it in any Operation, reguardless of it being 360° or 120°.

 

I've seen the arguement of "In EV you use it to knockback the trash you pull from the caves". Yeah, gamebreaking, I know. Now you just have to get someone else to knock it off or just simply, kill the trash. I've seen people like yourself claim that "when the tank loses agro". This one is one of my favorites. How are you going to blame the change to your class and not the tank in this situation? Like ai said above, if this is really THAT much of an issue for you or anyone else who makes this "point" go get a better tank, because simple put the tank you have is garbage.

 

For solo play, like I said above as well.. I never "needed" to use this ability. Let's be honest here and say you're trying to use it as a "get out of jail free" move (like you claim to give you "more breathing room"), simply all you do now is bubble, force run away while adding a self heal if you want "breathing room" to help you re-control the fight as you put it, I mean hell at this point guess what.. The mob is running back to you and while they're running back to you, you can be facing them and (/gasp!) can knock them back if you want MORE "breathing room".

 

I think all in all people are just making a huge deal about this update on PvP is ruining things for PvE for nothing and I guess I just hate that the PvE'rs blame the PvP'ers and vise versa for just about anything they can think of, no matter how far fetched it is. Or maybe people just complain because they are left with nothing else left to do in the game since the content has been flowing in so constantly

 

Hmm.

 

Seems to me even you would understand why a 360 pushback is pretty vital in solo PVE play. In fact, seems to me you would be able to acknowledge it is a core trait even if you agree with the change.

 

It is a good change for PVP and had to be done. It can even be useful in Raiding. This likely can not be denied. It is a bad change for PVE solo play IMO, and unfortunately for you, me and everyone else playing that is the majority playerbase.

 

It was a bad move to make this change universal for the sake of PVP. I have already stated numerous times what they could have done instead.

[H-aTreD]

Hmm.

 

Seems to me even you would understand why a 360 pushback is pretty vital in solo PVE play. In fact, seems to me you would be able to acknowledge it is a core trait even if you agree with the change.

 

It is a good change for PVP and had to be done. It can even be useful in Raiding. This likely can not be denied. It is a bad change for PVE solo play IMO, and unfortunately for you, me and everyone else playing that is the majority playerbase.

 

It was a bad move to make this change universal for the sake of PVP. I have already stated numerous times what they could have done instead.

 

Not sure where you would have gotten that from...

[PatT]

If you cannot figure out how to turn around, and hit a button and turn around again, this game may be a bit too complex for you.

 

Okay since I'm the person you were originally replying to, and everyone else jumped on the bandwagon, I'd like to address this post myself, since it's my post you are responding to.

 

I don't know how your guild does things. But in ours, we solve that puzzle FAST. Really fast. The time it takes to turn away from the panel, knock the whatever back, and turn back to the panel, is actually about how long it takes to solve the entire firing sequence in our guild.

 

Sure, I CAN turn. Maybe if the droid comes from the side, I can turn sideways, knock him and still reach the panel. But I won't be albe to heal the guy who is now behind me (who used to be beside me). But no matter, it's just a second or two.

 

I've never seen fabricator enrage. I have, however, seen the difference in the fight when someone calling out the panels to push doesn't know the puzzle, versus someone who has it down pat. And that is damage to everyone down below and undue stress to the healer down below.

 

You see, we like to do it, and do it elegantly.

 

I suppose I got a little emo and said it was impossible. It's not. It's just very inelegant. And maybe if I were running with hacks that had to deal with enrages all the time, sloppiness wouldn't bother me. But this change just makes what was an easy solution into a putzy one.

 

As for the changes to Force Stun, I usually use my Mind Snap as opposed to force stun, so I don't really care. Besides, in our guild, it's the DPS's job to deal with interrupts and only when they've got too many or they're all on cooldown does the healer have to fill in.

 

Yes, things will be fine. I'm not a sorc I'm a sage and she's my main and has been since launch. I'll adjust. I just like clean, neat, fast runs. I'll just have to adjust.

 

Your tone, suggesting this game is too difficult, was condescending and uncalled for. You don't know me, but if you did, you'd be happy to have my healing your team. I tend to be quite in demand, in fact, and I have to turn down more offers than I accept, or I'd never have a life. Maybe your comments to peopl eyou don't know should be ratcheted down a bit until you know who you're talking to.

 

Enuf from me.

[Roalmo]

Let's sum up here:

 

The PVPers say it isn't a nerf.

 

The PVErs say it is.

 

Strange how that works.

 

Not a nerf for PVP, but is a nerf for PVE.

 

The OP wins.

[LordArtemis]

Not sure where you would have gotten that from...

 

From your own post. You are a game player, you must have played solo at some point, and you have obviously played the class...so my guess is that you found what many have probably found...its a foundation ability vital to PVE solo play.

 

That would be where.

 

My curiosity is why you rail against those that propose sensible changes to avoid constant balance issues. Many have posted sensible alternatives, ones that are employed in almost every major MMO on the market currently. Why hasn't Bioware stepped up the plate and joined the modern age in this respect?

 

I see that you do not like PVP players getting blamed, or the PVP side...sensible certainly, and you probably do not like complaints either. I can understand that, it happens a lot here. But do you really feel there is no issue here, or do you claim such simply because you dislike those things I mentioned?

[H-aTreD]

From your own post. You are a game player, you must have played solo at some point, and you have obviously played the class...so my guess is that you found what many have probably found...its a foundation ability vital to PVE solo play.

 

That would be where.

 

My curiosity is why you rail against those that propose sensible changes to avoid constant balance issues. Many have posted sensible alternatives, ones that are employed in almost every major MMO on the market currently. Why hasn't Bioware stepped up the plate and joined the modern age in this respect?

 

I see that you do not like PVP players getting blamed, or the PVP side...sensible certainly, and you probably do not like complaints either. I can understand that, it happens a lot here. But do you really feel there is no issue here, or do you claim such simply because you dislike those things I mentioned?

 

I would answer your post in more depth, but I'm not going to waste my time any longer since they just keep getting reported and deleted. If you want to honestly debate or have a good talk, you can PM me and we can do it there, where I know my posts wont get reported and deleted by people offended by my logic and reasonable thoughts that differ from their porely thought out brain fart QQs.

[mtsr]

I have 2 classes that were nerfed while I had to suffer through this for9 months other classes have skated away whistling... currently we have suffered 3 op imba classes in PvP since 1.2

 

Other games add a 5-10% damage to PvEEEE to compensate for nerfs in pVp that Carry over into PVEEEEE.

[LadyRaven]

http://www.swtor.com/blog/developer-update-class-changes-and-balance-game-update-1.4

 

As seen here, there are a slew of serious nerfs coming to certain professions. Why? Because the PVP aspect of this community is complaining (as they will ALWAYS do, no matter what the situation is) about imbalance.

 

 

They need to keep pve and pvp seperate. Other MMO's have done this in the past and on older engines not designed with it in mind.

 

Powers should work differently in pvp than they do in pve, duel specs are also needed. If it can't be done right don't do it!

 

Keep the pvp outta my pve please. sigh

[oakamp]

I have 2 classes that were nerfed while I had to suffer through this for9 months other classes have skated away whistling... currently we have suffered 3 op imba classes in PvP since 1.2

 

Other games add a 5-10% damage to PvEEEE to compensate for nerfs in pVp that Carry over into PVEEEEE.

 

why not just design classes only can do pve or pvp,

it is so stupid to merge them together,

1st step they add expitersexxx attribute,

then nerf this buff that,

so stupid loops.

[oakamp]

They need to keep pve and pvp seperate. Other MMO's have done this in the past and on older engines not designed with it in mind.

 

Powers should work differently in pvp than they do in pve, duel specs are also needed. If it can't be done right don't do it!

 

Keep the pvp outta my pve please. sigh

no,

they should design two games,

1 only pve,

1 only pvp.

[BaronV]

H-aTred, I spent a few hours putting together my response to your non-answer answer only to find your post is no longer here and so I cant rebut them!

 

I also had a post which i copy-pasted from the sticky deleted. It was a very good analysis as to why the cone overload is idiotic. It would seem like the mods want to start pulling a Stanley Woo on us

 

Anyway you mentioned that your responses were "logical and well reasoned" but your response to mine was just a bunch of "do I really need to explain this?" or "you are doing something wrong" or "you are just assuming" without to say much of substance at all.

 

If you had read my earlier posts you would have known that I have said that these changes must be looked at as a whole and not in their individual parts. You have to consider the impact of the sum of the changes to the overall game and class experience of playing this class and whether it is engaging and fun to play or not. Do these changes make this class more or less fun to play? To me most certainly LESS FUN.

 

The changes as a whole effectively turn this class into a hit and run cowardly class. Do something then run away to magically insta-heal! We have a saying in my country that goes something like "throwing stones, then hiding your hand" - this is what the changes will do to the class.

 

It breaks immersion and by extension fun because the actions dont make sense.

 

Having a conical "force wave" does not make sense - its force wave!!

 

Having a knockback that occurs BEFORE the animation is done does not make sense... why did they fly before i even sent the wave into the ground??

 

Being able to heal out of thin air without consuming any force or requiring any channeling does not make sense! Did i just turn in to a god for a short while before becoming normal again??

 

Furthermore your comments like "you need a better tank" or "you are doing something wrong" just make you seem like an elitist snob. Not everyone is part of a uber hardcore min-maxing guild. There are lots of casual players out there who form imperfect PuG groups to do heroics, flashpoints, WB and Ops. People make mistakes and we should be able to recover from them and continue the assault .

 

When a tank loses aggro and mobs move on to the sorc (who has both high aggro and is extremely squishy) Overload is very effective in getting them off your back long enough for the tank to re-aggro and for you to bubble up - rather than just dying. Yea yea I know we can just run away instead right?

 

But then how far away can you get with just 2 seconds of force speed? You can force speed and 2 seconds later (after it ends) be grappled back or they can jump to you...

 

the same would be the case for the reduced stun range. As sorcs we are a ranged class - a very squishy ranged class! We are trying to keep a distance from the mobs and the reduced stun range forces us to run into the melee range to stun where they can jump us or grapple.

 

Or do you feel its better that you change play style to run in -> stun -> overload -> force speed out?! Yeah... bet your melee class group members love that you do that right?

 

And dont forget that the insta-heal is a [i]moderate[/i] amount.... just like BWs mind-trick reduces aggro by a "moderate" amount (read as pretty much useless)

 

All of these rubbish changes to me is a "nerf" and the insta-heal is an unwanted buff slapped on as some sort of band-aid "compensation". It reeks of half-baked ill-conceived effort to please the noisy PvP players who have been complaining of stuns and too many knockbacks. (Why just nerf sorc knockback - why not also mercs who have 360 knckbacks too?).

 

To top it all off the "problems" they trying to "fix" for PvP will not be solved at all - some are saying it will be WORSE! Sorcs were just fine as they were! There is absolutely no need to keep messing with us. Honestly it feels like we are the unwanted step child at times - nerf after nerf after nerf...

 

Anyway Im not looking to debate with you or change your viewpoint. You are obviously set in your views as I am in mine. But the sheer torrent of protest clearly indicates that you are the minority on this one. The only people whose viewpoints Im seeking to change are the devs (though going by past experience its a futile gesture)

 

Some of these points apply to PvP as well, but thats out of topic...

[LordArtemis]

A force push would have been fine. Not only does it work in SW, its canon and can work here. Having overload become force push, then giving us a lower run cooldown, free instant heal and our run defeats and resists roots and it seems we are being pushed away from standing our ground...and getting pushed into running away.

[H-aTreD]

H-aTred, I spent a few hours putting together my response to your non-answer answer only to find your post is no longer here and so I cant rebut them!

 

Well, we'll just have to agree to not so much. I'm over it and not feeling like getting into it all over again, only to have more posts deleted.

 

I will say one thing to one of the things you said. When I said "Do I really need to explain why this is good" I really thought the reasoning I put was honestly true. If something is good, an upgrade or what have you I don't feel like I would need to explain why I think that if we're not debating on those changes (Like the self heal, it didn't take anything away, it doesn't cost us any force and it's instant. To me, there's no explaining why it's good because it's simply just great to get something like that added to our build).

 

Anyways, enjoy and hope you get to try out the new changes on the PTS. I jumped in for a few mins tonight to check it out (animations, trees and what not) and I'll look more into it tomorrow or later tonight if I don't get bored out of my mind with something else.

[BaronV]

While im at it Id like to ask that the game developers who came up with these idiotic ideas MAN-UP (or woman-up) and identify themselves!

 

If you are pressing ahead with the 1.4 Changes that so many people are against, it can only mean that you people ar PROUD of what you have come up with - so please, stand up and be known!

 

As consumers we have a right to make an informed purchase and I would like to exercise that right in the future by boycotting ALL games that the devs who came up with these ideas had a hand in.

 

The gaming community keeps putting up with all kind of crap and these devs need to learn that there are consequences not just for the immediate game but for their entire career the next time they pull crap like this!!

Edited September 11, 2012 by BaronV
emphasis

[Jenemi]

This was my big issue with the Sage Nerfs in 1.2...and honestly, I still had no issue with PVP with the changes--just a bit in PVE. Sure, I've gotten over the changes now, but it still bothers me a lot :/

 

I don't think most of these nerfs are so bad...though, I have horrible aim so I have mixed feelings on Force Wave's changes.

 

Honestly, if you have different gear for PVE and PVP, keep skill changes different too. -_-

Edited September 11, 2012 by Jenemi

[Ivoryhammer]

Uh oh, it's going down the path of WoW, where classes were designed around arena, even if it crippled them in PvE(See Retribution Paladin)

[LordArtemis]

Yes, WoW is the best example of a company that has already learned it's lesson in this respect, and even came out to speak about the faulty implementation of Arenas and the negative effect it had on balance and the game overall.

 

Generally speaking...when an established talent or special needs changing in one part of the game they change how it operates for just that part of the game.

 

It is folly to believe you can change a special, talent or ability for one part of the game but have it effect all parts of the game and not expect it to cause problems. This will likely cause problems, and that will require additional time and money wasted to fix it.

[Chicktopus]

I'm more concerned about the Electrocute/Force Stun nerf to be honest. As an Assassin tank I've found the 30m range incredibly useful for stunning mobs which I can't immediately pick up and require time to get to (for example, a ranged dps attacking the wrong target as they ALWAYS do) or when in dps spec and I notice... well, the same thing. Either the tank hasn't picked up his targets properly, a ranged dps is attacking the wrong target, the healer has aggro, whatever the case, a quick stun can save lives. Before the arguments that this means these players aren't doing their jobs properly then in a lot of cases yeah, you're right, but isn't that half of what these abilities are there for?

 

As a tank, the Overload/Force Wave nerf doesn't particularly affect me as I generally WANT everything to attack me, but I've seen it be incredibly useful for Sages/Sorcs when rushed by a group of weaker enemies, say the adds from the last boss in KuS, or better yet first/last boss in LI where the tank isn't expected to pick up the adds. I was quite happy with the balance on these abilities, but I can see why they were nerfed for PvP. Couldn't some kind of 'dampening field' or 'resilience' buff be applied while in PvP zones rather than screw with PvE mechanics?

[ivanhedgehog]

The reason they don't discuss the impact on pve is because there is virtually none. Mercs/commandoes can finally interrupt things like nearly every other class in the game(about time really), the stealth pvp specs were buffed, survivability was improved for sorcs and mercs, and knockbacks were made into cones. I don't really see people using their knockbacks in pve except in EV, to push trash off that one side near the lava pits.

 

Only other thing that was changed was pvp cc.

 

 

you know(gasp) some people actually play solo?? Yes, I know its shocking, but not just melee types are allowed to do this. Sometimes the tank is busy with the boss and you need to deal with adds. Too bad for you. People use knockbacks in a lot of places..not just ops. This is not supposed to be Star Wars The OPS republic.