I Am All For Pay To Win, Are You?

[Soluss]

Damn it! I wish I had a better memory. I listened to a podcast, maybe it was TorWars, and they were talking about P2W. Apparently a guy from Bioware gave an interview to this German MMO podcaster. The German guy brought the idea of P2W up. The guy from Bioware said that P2W would be a disaster in a game like SWTOR. He went on to say it would never happen. ****! I wish I could give a link, but I would put a large sum of money on SWTOR not being P2W.

 

P2W is subjective to each individual. What one would consider P2W, another would not. I would put money on there being a very fine line of what they put on the store.

[S_I_T_H_L_O_R_D]

Damn it! I wish I had a better memory. I listened to a podcast, maybe it was TorWars, and they were talking about P2W. Apparently a guy from Bioware gave an interview to this German MMO podcaster. The German guy brought the idea of P2W up. The guy from Bioware said that P2W would be a disaster in a game like SWTOR. He went on to say it would never happen. ****! I wish I could give a link, but I would put a large sum of money on SWTOR not being P2W.

 

I have a link to the interview http://www.buffed.de/SWTOR-Star-Wars-The-Old-Republic-PC-218697/Specials/SWTOR-gamescom-Interview-zu-Free2Play-und-Patches-1017839/

 

The video is in english

[MadBlue]

Specific P2W items I like:

PvP Stat boosts

PvP XP boosts

Exclusive CE armour with stats enhancements

Exclusive CE weapons with stats boosts

Flying mounts

Very fast speeders

Cartel coins

Datacrons which are difficult to get

 

Aside from Cartel Coins and XP boosts, none of these things are likely to ... wait ... flying mounts?! Are you serious?!

[Gokkus]

Anything that you have to have to be competitive that can be bought with real money will greatly increase the chance of me unsubbing.

 

Likewise the moment I get the feeling they try to scam me out of my money as a sub, I unsub. There has got to be enough reason to have a sub in the first place.

[ZORG]

My circumstances are similar to the OP. I am a working adult, I can remember going to the theater in the summer of '77 to see Episode IV, I play LOTRO so I am familiar with F2P. etc... While I certainly don't want to see a cash store upset game balance (particularly endgame balance) in SWTOR, I do think BW would be wise to make some of the more mundane necessities like consumables and crafting boosts, as well as cosmetics, available for real money. My play time is fairly limited by real life obligations, so I guess what I am hoping for is "pay to not have to spend my time grinding".

 

But then you have serious resentment among the playerbase. Sure it may take x amount of hours to get war hero gear but you know what thats so easy compaired to the Campain gear grind. I could see the *working class* as you seem to call yourself asking for a way to buy campain tokens so you have a chance to participate in the new hard mode ops that come with Makeb. I don't think thats fair to the playerbase or yourself.

 

If you just buy the gear it has no meaning. You didnt earn it. You didnt have to work with your guild to learn that strats to completing content to get said item. It cheapens the whole experiance. It trivializes everyone elses hard work. Dealing with bugs server lag player dissconnects on top of it as well.

 

I could see you buying stat boosts that are temporary. That would help out the guild your with to complete content, but you still should have to actually get the gear the same way everyone else does.

I played EQ1 for 5 years never made max level. I only played the game 3 hours a day max except weekends. I still had fun. When I did finally get the carrot it felt so amazing. To cheapen that by just purchasing that is just wrong and unfair to yourself and the rest of us...

Edited August 22, 2012 by ZORG

[cerveau]

using this "I havnt got enough time so just gimme all the goodies now" is a crock and you know it.

 

so its right to negate all the rewards earned by players who actually play the game.

in that case why not have a magic button in the cartel shop that actually plays the game for you

so you never have to log in.

 

so its right is it ?, that when new content is rolled out, the actual players of the game spend weeks

getting the tokens to buy these items, while the P2W'rs go out and buy all the gear on day 1.

 

how is that leveling the play field ? it isnt

[Fornix]

Can I QQ for you a little?

 

Personally I like earning items in game, it's part of what makes it fun for me. Not that I have a huge objection to people buying the same items I guess, but it kinda depends. I mean lets say it takes me months of doing dailies or something to earn gear needed to do some raid/PvP/whatever content, and someone else pays like $40 and gets the stuff the very first day.

 

So like I know we're both in the same gear and everything in the end, but if very few people are interested in doing the content by the time I earn my gear (old content is so old...) my months of dailies were a waste. It's kinda like you were betrayed by a hidden P2W system, which can almost be worse in my mind.

 

I mean, I know its a grey area and all, but still I'm not sure that would be much fun; well just a thought. :\

 

If by the time you hit that content, it is no longer of interest (taking PvP considering as to how I as stated do not believe people should buy the latest raid tier gear, considering as to how imo that doesn't make sense) to play those warzones, then those warzones are dodge and of not high enough quality. The grind towards it then is then nothing more than a grind to make up for time in between patches.

 

Whilst in reality the quality of the warzones should be aimed for being at such a level that years after release, they remain interesting to play, in a similar fashion as to how people can still play the same maps over and over in their favorite FPS and RTS games.

 

 

 

 

using this "I havnt got enough time so just gimme all the goodies now" is a crock and you know it.

 

so its right to negate all the rewards earned by players who actually play the game.

in that case why not have a magic button in the cartel shop that actually plays the game for you

so you never have to log in.

 

The problem is that in current MMO's, the content is only there at endgame.

 

PvP wise, it makes little sense to aim to play competitive against players with different levels of actual ingame skills, as well as different gear. Rather than player skill you're simply letting an upper hand in statistics do the work. It's like playing poker against someone who by default gets handed 3 aces.

 

So a quick way up to the endgame level of pvp could yield a lot of interest.

 

 

 

Additionally, raiding is where it's at for many players, but the grind toward it is not. 10 years ago, major group content which formed the early form of current raiding used to be available at all levels. The term endgame, was practically non-existing. It was the same as early-game and mid-game for that matter. It was a time in which an MMO had no end. People called it grind because of the exp requirements per level, but quickly forgot that those levels did come with plenty of choice in content.

 

These days you got levels with no challenging content, a pure grind up to cap, then a grind for gear, before you can start raiding. So why, if all you were ever interested in in MMO's was the challenging content, should players be forced to go through that grind over and over?

 

 

Publishers can either do two things: start reintroducing challenging content early on ingame; either by a sort of sidekicking system where you get boosted to raid like stats and levels are no longer of any importance; or by simply creating lower level raids. Or by chipping in on their own profit and allowing people quick access to what they actually truly want to be doing in this MMO.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Fornix

[Uwel]

A thought about "imma hard working man blah" (im a hard working man too). So your excuse is that you don't have the time to gather the gear. It's very funny i think, here's what. You wanna buy tier 1 gear coz you don't have time to gather it. But what's the point when you "can't" go and gather tier 2 with it? Or you just want to stand all day at the fleet and show "look what i have, screw you"...

 

I hope bioware put some watermark onto those items. "Look that gear, it's frickin' awesome. Let's inspect: "bought on 2012.11.23", then we just run around and laugh"

 

Sorry, I don't want to be rude, but that's ridiculous

[Bloodstealer]

,,, you guys do know that , one of the new guys from BW said blue armour and such are going to be aceessable via the cash shop .

 

for levels 1 to 49 . ..

 

yes that does nt effect end game but a person whos just leveling slowly and can t be arse to do the FPs can just buy gear ( blue armour) thats pay to win. in its self..

 

maybe not effect level 50s but all this talk ...I AM GOING TO QUIT IF I SEE P2W ANYWHERE,,

 

Needs to grow up , your not going to quit the game your going to piss and moan on a form.. thats any it

 

face facts .

 

Well if you think Blue proto armours/weapons are important from 1-49 then I guess that's your take on P2W.. personally I see no need for anything other than the trash stuff you pick up off of every dead mob.. so if idiots want to pay real cash for something that isn't of any tangiable benefit through the leveling experience.. all power to them, hopefully there idiocy will help pay for the next content update.

 

I have no issues with F2P or cashshops, heck I might even buy some new dayglow hairsyle or a pair of rose tinted glasses but yes... I say NO! to P2W period.. those that are willing to go that route in order to play a game likely need all the help they can get anyway.

[Fornix]

A thought about "imma hard working man blah" (im a hard working man too). So your excuse is that you don't have the time to gather the gear. It's very funny i think, here's what. You wanna buy tier 1 gear coz you don't have time to gather it. But what's the point when you "can't" go and gather tier 2 with it? Or you just want to stand all day at the fleet and show "look what i have, screw you"...

 

I hope bioware put some watermark onto those items. "Look that gear, it's frickin' awesome. Let's inspect: "bought on 2012.11.23", then we just run around and laugh"

 

Sorry, I don't want to be rude, but that's ridiculous

 

Raiding doesn't take a lot of time, an hour or 6 a week can be enough. So why, for an hour or 6 a week of raiding, should one first have to grind about 120 hours to reach the level cap and initial gear requirement? That's 20 weeks someone could have used on doing what they like doing best, raiding.

 

The same can apply to endgame PvP.

[Uwel]

Raiding doesn't take a lot of time, an hour or 6 a week can be enough. So why, for an hour or 6 a week of raiding, should one first have to grind about 120 hours to reach the level cap and initial gear requirement? That's 20 weeks someone could have used on doing what they like doing best, raiding.

 

The same can apply to endgame PvP.

 

Following your train of thought it's absolutely pointless the leveling system too. What the heck, they expect me to level up a toon?! They should make instant lvl50 server, or even fun servers.

[anstalt]

Anything that is available in the store should be either

 

a) Available in game by other routes

 

or

 

b) A vanity item which has no effect in game.

 

This should mean that if I'm a subscriber, I can get everything that is in the store without ever having to pay money to the store. However, if i'm lazy, then i can chose to spend money to help circumvent the grind. This included things like XP boosts (2x XP for 1 hour), deed accelerators etc.

 

The LOTRO store, to my knowledge, only ever put one type of pay2win item up for sale: stat tomes. These stat tomes gave you a permanent stat boost. There were 5 tomes per stat, 5 stats in total so 25 items to buy. Althought stat tomes did drop in game, they did so at such a rare rate that it was virtually impossible to get them through normal play. At the time, the stat cap was 650 and buying all 25 stat tomes gave you +50 to every stat, so it was a very significant boost that was unavailable elsewhere. The reason LOTRO got away with it is that when F2P launched, they gave all their long term subscribers a ton of free store points so it meant we could basically buy them all for free anyways.

[Bloodstealer]

If by the time you hit that content, it is no longer of interest (taking PvP considering as to how I as stated do not believe people should buy the latest raid tier gear, considering as to how imo that doesn't make sense) to play those warzones, then those warzones are dodge and of not high enough quality. The grind towards it then is then nothing more than a grind to make up for time in between patches.

Unfortuantely there will always be some players who will want the P2W to make them feel superior in some way... that's nothing new whether its a real money cashshop or simply buying something or trading something in game currently.... but yes P2W for me is a major downer but if those idiots want to do it, then that's up to them, hopefully BW will chuckle and pour the $'s into the content funds.

 

Whilst in reality the quality of the warzones should be aimed for being at such a level that years after release, they remain interesting to play, in a similar fashion as to how people can still play the same maps over and over in their favorite FPS and RTS games.

PvP in SWTOR was borked from day1... lvl10-lvl49 (lvl 50's in the early days iirc) all in the same Wz with different levels and numbers of skills/abilities, differing levels of things like Expertise on gear, class inblalances and way too many stuns, chokes, slow effects etc to even make it enjoyable.... proper bandings should of been applied to Wz's to make them competitive but then of course when pops were allowed to dwindle so much, just getting in a WZ was a miracle in itself.

 

The problem is that in current MMO's, the content is only there at endgame.

 

PvP wise, it makes little sense to aim to play competitive against players with different levels of actual ingame skills, as well as different gear. Rather than player skill you're simply letting an upper hand in statistics do the work. It's like playing poker against someone who by default gets handed 3 aces.

So a quick way up to the endgame level of pvp could yield a lot of interest. - -

For you maybe but I would rather ply my skills throught the process and try to better myself beofre going straight to the big boy league... item/weapons are only part of it.. at some point the player and tactics has to come through.

You wanna deck yourselve up and push an EZ mode thats fine.. but if your not good enough or have the necessary ideas around a quest/ raid/ wz/ Op etc etc.. you will still be found out to be a fail and pushed aside...

 

Additionally, raiding is where it's at for many players, but the grind toward it is not. 10 years ago, major group content which formed the early form of current raiding used to be available at all levels. The term endgame, was practically non-existing. It was the same as early-game and mid-game for that matter. It was a time in which an MMO had no end. People called it grind because of the exp requirements per level, but quickly forgot that those levels did come with plenty of choice in content.

These days you got levels with no challenging content, a pure grind up to cap, then a grind for gear, before you can start raiding. So why, if all you were ever interested in in MMO's was the challenging content, should players be forced to go through that grind over and over?

Yep I rememeber when there used to be progression points in the leveleing experience, a lower level raid, a challenging group quest that tested you, taught you and maybe even helped to gear you in preparation for the next part of the leveleing curve... some still have that, many dont.

SWTOR, imo, took the easy challenge out of the game in order to make it more accessable to younger players but they forgot about its repeatability value.. 1-49 simply isnt challenging.. especially as you dont need specific gear, you dont need to run anything you dont want to, or like has been a large issue..cant get a group to... flashpoints, H2/H4 simply have no real value in SWTOR and the boredom factor soon sets in running the same rails for every class just so you can get to play out some decent story with VO. If they could incorporate progression points in story.. why did they not consider it necessary for actual PvE until the grindfest that hits you at lvl50... poor ideas, lack of experience and poor management - -make for a game that will struggle to retain its players - - ooh wait how many subs have gone south in the last 6-months??

 

Publishers can either do two things: start reintroducing challenging content early on ingame; either by a sort of sidekicking system where you get boosted to raid like stats and levels are no longer of any importance; or by simply creating lower level raids. Or by chipping in on their own profit and allowing people quick access to what they actually truly want to be doing in this MMO.

 

Content updates in decent MMO's tend to be incorporated around endgame, that's obvious.. but they dont forget about the low, mid levels either.. otherwiose tha game stagnates. In fact some MMO now have started to allow players to roll new toons or reincarnate toons at higher levels... rather than thinking about how they can keep the levels interesting and challenging... maybe introduce planetwide dungeon scaling.. that would maybe help grouping on planet stuff and make exploration for datacrons more interesting, especially if they made the spawn points alittle more random.. we know they can do that cos the event crates had a hint of that.

Keep introducing new quests at differing levels but add modes to them to challenge players... at endgame you get HM and NM.. well 1-49 make could yield a something similar, would it really be that difficult, then building toons, gearing them appropriately and building groups at low levels would begin to have an impact... as it is every planet is a peg-in-hole rail ride, dull and very little repeatability valaue to it except story... and even that gets old fast when you have run it a few times (yes SPACE BAR or your KICKED springs to mind).

 

But do BW have the people in place to tackle the issue and deliver better creative ideas across the game and/or will EA put the time and money into supporting it.... I am not convinced of either

Edited August 22, 2012 by Bloodstealer

[Fornix]

Following your train of thought it's absolutely pointless the leveling system too. What the heck, they expect me to level up a toon?! They should make instant lvl50 server, or even fun servers.

 

No, the leveling system isn't pointless... in a p2p environment. It serves little other purpose than pulling out additional months of subscription rate till you hit endgame. Basically a filler to get extra cash out of you.

 

As a player? The leveling system is pointless. It's the same as in every other MMO. It's a nice introduction to players new to the genre, but for those amongst us who've been playing MMO's for a long time; whether that be 5+, 10+ or by now even 15+ years doesn't matter. You're not going to get anything new out of the leveling process.

 

Additionally, the leveling system in current MMO's also is of as important to endgame content as the campaigns are in RTS and FPS games. It holds no value there, except for teaching you basic interface elements.

 

Sure the story is nice to see.... once. No reason to repeat the exact same story over and over for every alt.

 

Financially seeing that's something they can easily jump in on. Why give away something for free, if they can charge you 20 bucks for it. Meanwhile we as players can question ourselves, do we enjoy the leveling experience? Or do I just want just the endgame content out of this game and is 20 bucks for a 120 hour grind I save a pretty sweet deal? And unless you make less than 1 buck every 6 hours, that wouldn't be to bad of a deal for example.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Fornix

[Digimanbyte_ID]

Firstly, I am not a troll and I am not writing this thread to get attention. I am an adult Star Wars fan who has seen Episode IV - VI in the cinema when they were first screened. I bought into the pre-launch hype and own two copies of SWTOR Collector's Edition, mainly due to the promised "exclusive" CE Store where I hoped to spend real money to buy "exclusive" virtual items. I stopped playing LOTRO for SWTOR and still have LOTRO credits in my LOTRO account.

 

I loved buying vanity items, pets different seasonal horses that are faster and stat and XP boosts in LOTRO and thought SWTOR would be the same, especially the CE store. I found out early in the game that we the CE store concept was only hype, but I gave BW some months to improve on it. I subbed for 6 month because of this and also because I enjoyed SWTOR at the pre-50 levels. I have just unsubbed due to various reasons which I discussed in another thread. However, I plan to pop in after they start the F2P just to have a look at the ingame store to see if there is any P2W items. If they are good enough, I might re-sub.

 

Specific P2W items I like:

PvP Stat boosts

PvP XP boosts

Exclusive CE armour with stats enhancements

Exclusive CE weapons with stats boosts

Flying mounts

Very fast speeders

Cartel coins

Datacrons which are difficult to get

 

Does anyone else like P2W items like I do?

 

Then your going to be disappointed. The idea is loyalty point system for subbing not paying to get an edge over everyone else. The idea has worked well in making customers feel like they are being appreciated and not just wallet numbers to the company. As far as I know most of what you can get is cool vanity items and new content which is about the only game breaking thing you will get over the f2p consumers.

 

I am pretty sure bioware is aware of the turbine point history and how it blew out and also how EA's approach affected the customer base when trying it. So no there will be nothing game breaking if anything they will probably add things like advanced class respec, last and first name change items and probably a few ship upgrades, mounts and pets or cool emotes.

[Uwel]

No, the leveling system isn't pointless... in a p2p environment. It serves little other purpose than pulling out additional months of subscription rate till you hit endgame. Basically a filler to get extra cash out of you.

 

As a player? The leveling system is pointless. It's the same as in every other MMO. It's a nice introduction to players new to the genre, but for those amongst us who've been playing MMO's for a long time; whether that be 5+, 10+ or by now even 15+ years doesn't matter. You're not going to get anything new out of the leveling process.

 

Additionally, the leveling system in current MMO's also is of as important to endgame content as the campaigns are in RTS and FPS games. It holds no value there, except for teaching you basic interface elements.

 

Sure the story is nice to see.... once. No reason to repeat the exact same story over and over for every alt.

 

Financially seeing that's something they can easily jump in on. Why give away something for free, if they can charge you 20 bucks for it. Meanwhile we as players can question ourselves, do we enjoy the leveling experience? Or do I just want just the endgame content out of this game and is 20 bucks for a 120 hour grind I save a pretty sweet deal? And unless you make less than 1 buck every 6 hours, that wouldn't be to bad of a deal for example.

 

Yep, that's right. Cleverly placed obstacles, quests furthest each other as possible etc, just to slow you down, but this is the nature of an mmo. The first part is the leveling, the second starts when you hit level cap.

I know it's boring to level up another toons and bw/ea literally force us to do. No endgame? Here's a legacy system *now kiss*. Screw this bioware. Even the leveling is boring as hell, same quest, same planet, same order, everything is the same except the weapon that you carry.

 

But you cannot skip the training session and just run at the olympic games. Old players that came back doesn't need to level up chars again (hopefully), current subbers i'll assume have some char, and for new f2p players however it is a must have. Or do you wanna go pvp/ops with a "bought geared" player and wipe 10+ times...

[sanchito]

just wondering, would you guys be ok with something like subscribers pay 30% less RWZ comms for WH gear? Edited August 22, 2012 by sanchito

[Elear]

I'm all for pvp stats boosts...

Under condition that they also grant you big glowing $ over your head that can be seen trough walls and stealth, and most importantly, you lose boost when you die, allowing EA to milk you after each death.

[lklinga]

It depends on the community.

If $ amounts from cancelled accounts > then $ amount from P2Win sales = only vanity items introduced

 

Personally people that pay 2 win are idiots in my opinion, what is the point of playing the game then?

Arguments like busy schedules family are bull. [i have both and still think it is bull]

It has been attempted in other game EVE and the outrage and cancelled accounts changed their mind.

 

Unlocking content Fine,

I would not even be against possibility to get some gear that you can get through drops for cash.

Basically you are presenting a choice grind [time] vs $.

 

But if they introduce any XP boosts that could not be dropped from mobs or any item that even has a minuscule advantage over something that you can get other means than good bye

[Digimanbyte_ID]

By bloodstealer:

Yep I rememeber when there used to be progression points in the leveleing experience, a lower level raid, a challenging group quest that tested you, taught you and maybe even helped to gear you in preparation for the next part of the leveleing curve... some still have that, many dont.

 

I remember that too, and the shattered tiers on every realm. Every server required people to run through difficult quest and when the new tier was introduced and was a little more easier, players jumped the boat to that and the last tier sets were left in the dust never to be touched again.

 

I don't think many of you understand how easy it is for even new players to look up encounters to get a quick edge on whats to come. The only requirements was the thick grind in gear and DKP system that denied it to them, leaving many to go home empty handed.

 

This system would be fine for a single player game where you can invite friends, but for a MMO it was grueling and lead many to burnout requiring more time for them to get the gear in the next tier level and made it pretty troublesome if you wanted to roll a new class for fun.

[ratty]

I'm against Pay to Win. I am an adult working full time and don't have as much time as others do to play this game but the thought of Pay to Win just doesn't work for me. Paying my sub fee to play is one thing but being able to pay to win is just wrong in my book.

 

In the SW universe, do they wake up one day, spend money and suddenly become the Emperor. Do they hold auctions about who will end up being the most powerful force user in the universe...

 

Pay to Win just doesn't fit in with how I conceptualise the game and setting. I want to play the game and, like others, work for the benefits. I may not be the best player but I still want to play when I can and put in the effort myself because to me that is far more rewarding because you've actually earned it through playing rather than simply paid for it.

 

If EA/BW move away from what they are currently doing with F2P and move F2P towards a P2W model just for the sake of milking the consumer then that proves that the experience of the game will no longer be worth playing.

[Bloodstealer]

Anything that is available in the store should be either

 

a) Available in game by other routes

 

or

 

b) A vanity item which has no effect in game.

 

This should mean that if I'm a subscriber, I can get everything that is in the store without ever having to pay money to the store. However, if i'm lazy, then i can chose to spend money to help circumvent the grind. This included things like XP boosts (2x XP for 1 hour), deed accelerators etc.

 

The LOTRO store, to my knowledge, only ever put one type of pay2win item up for sale: stat tomes. These stat tomes gave you a permanent stat boost. There were 5 tomes per stat, 5 stats in total so 25 items to buy. Althought stat tomes did drop in game, they did so at such a rare rate that it was virtually impossible to get them through normal play. At the time, the stat cap was 650 and buying all 25 stat tomes gave you +50 to every stat, so it was a very significant boost that was unavailable elsewhere. The reason LOTRO got away with it is that when F2P launched, they gave all their long term subscribers a ton of free store points so it meant we could basically buy them all for free anyways.

 

Disagree...

 

I have always been a subber and play MMO's that have added the F2P option... and that's fine.

 

The cashop is there for a sole purpose.. to generate profits for the compnay, its a business.

Your sub and my sub pay to give us access to content but that has proven to be insufficient to sustain the game so they need to put added value into it.

As a subber we are entilte to all current content in game and likely m ost of what will come from F2P model.. a subber should only be considering the cashshop as an extra, its something you get the oportunity to peruse and use at your desire. If you want to take the bait and pass some coin over for something then that's up to you not BW, their job is to to dangle the carrots. If they put that fluff stuff in game then what is the point of having F2P in the first place.

Its not about Free players and subbers playing different games its about making money out of the same game, you just get to choose what your entry point is. The stuff in the shop that is fluff, is fluff for both parties. The real coin killer stuff you wont have to pay for but F2P will... to a point at least... that is still something that is unknown but dont expect everything to be free but then again large expansions even in a subbed based MMO are normally chargeable (a la WoW )

 

Think of it as 2 cars on sale at your Porche dealership...

Car A costs $150k and has Fan/Heater, radio, driver Airbag and comes in a range of matt colours

Car B is exactly the same car and the same price but comes with metalic paint and has a CD player and an Immobiliser.... this car is only available through the Porche subscriber club.. and if subscribe they will also upgrade your car to include, Passenger Airbag, Foglights an Alarm, a full Climate Control system and free multi-point servicing for the life of the car (Note - not a full service !) as a thank you.

 

Each option however has an options pack... that includes CD player, Foglights, Passenger Airbag, Climate Control, Metalic Paint colors, 1 yr multi-point Service, Air freshners, baby seats, Footmats, Halogen bulb packs, Alarm, Immobiliser, Furry Seat covers, Chrome bumpers, a stylised Paint design of your choice, Ipod conncectivity, 12x 100watt speaker surround sound system, engine chipping, big boy twin exhausts.... etc etc.

 

Now if you decided to buy Car B then on inspection some of those things just are'nt relevant to you cos you already have them but there is a nice range of optional items and accessories to customise your car if you want

Now if you purchased Car A... guess what you can pretty much get all the same things that Car B has and all those nice extra items and accessories at a price of course.

 

Or just consider this.. if everyone decided to think the same way, what's the point of BW continuing on with the sub package rather than forcing us all down the F2P route instead? - ooh you might cancel anyway.. so either way if the game does not make money then simply there will be no game... simples

Edited August 22, 2012 by Bloodstealer

[Fornix]

Yep, that's right. Cleverly placed obstacles, quests furthest each other as possible etc, just to slow you down, but this is the nature of an mmo. The first part is the leveling, the second starts when you hit level cap.

I know it's boring to level up another toons and bw/ea literally force us to do. No endgame? Here's a legacy system *now kiss*. Screw this bioware. Even the leveling is boring as hell, same quest, same planet, same order, everything is the same except the weapon that you carry.

 

But you cannot skip the training session and just run at the olympic games. Old players that came back doesn't need to level up chars again (hopefully), current subbers i'll assume have some char, and for new f2p players however it is a must have. Or do you wanna go pvp/ops with a "bought geared" player and wipe 10+ times...

 

Yes, you cannot skip the training session and just run at the olympic games. However, just like with the olympic games, it doesn't matter whether you run on a track in NYC or on a track in London. So after you already spent 10 years running on the track of grind in 20+ MMO's over the course of the last decade, there's no need to run through the same course over and over again here.

 

It's needless time investment, and do you wish to lure in the long-term MMO players, it's one of the first things you should be willing to hand out on.

 

And yes, I would have no objection with running through ops with a player who just jumped over to this game after having been a long time hc raider in WoW for example, but didn't want to go through the initial grind here again. Chances of the people instantly buying their way into raiding or those going through the grind ending up being a complete fail aren't all that different anyway. It's a long time discussion which went on in WoW as well, entry level dungeons in Cataclysm were eventually proof enough for many players that simple campaigns in no way prepares people for true challenging content.

 

The same can be said here for the Lost Island HM FP. Simply try and do it on random, most people you encounter there can't distinguish heads from tails. That doesn't stop people from still forming raid teams and checking out who's a good potential candidate and who's not based on their gaming history and a test run or two to prove their worth. In that, there's little to no interest in whether you grinded long enough.

[Tiaa]

No I am not for P2W good sir.

 

And at this rate going by news...

 

...You'll be lucky If SWTOR makes it that far.

 

Alas...my time has run it's course on SWTOR.

 

So to you all farewell.

 

Farewell and goodnight.

[LaVolpex]

lol...so many dumb people....

 

 

AAA TROLLING LADIES AND GENTZ! THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT!

 

yeah....either way....stop feeding it, report the tread and let it die, just look at OP's posting history....

 

100% sure hes trolling ..hes done nothing but profess his desire to have cyber with GW2 over the past week , you all got trolled so hard