Clearing up the Force.

[Rayla_Felana]

I have seen post after post that suggests multiple ideas, that are flatly false.

 

That one can use both sides of the force at the same time, no, just no, this is literally impossible, you would have to simultaneously be angry, hateful and wielding your emotions whilst being peaceful, filled with Zen and controlling your emotions, that right there says everything.

 

The Force can only be 'used' and the term 'used' is kind of misleading, because 'Light Side' force users do not wield or control the Force, they let it flow through them, guide their actions, their every movement is through the force's will, they embrace the Force and become an extension of it.

At the same time the Sith or Dark Siders in general, try to control and dominate the force, wield it and direct it with their emotions, which is evidently detrimental to their health, some are even reliant on the Dark Side's power to stay alive after long use of it, the fact it clouds their minds and dominates any self-control states more than I can express, a great example is Darth Vader, the very reason he turned to the Dark Side in the first place was to save his woman's life, he ends up being the one whom kills her in the first place.

 

So no one can use both sides of the Force simultaneously, you could use the Force and then use it negatively through the Dark Side, but that puts you on the inevitable path of self-destruction, doing the opposite is an extremely rare occurrence, you also cannot 'master both sides of the Force', many confuse this with achieving Oneness with the Force, where the Force guides you completely, you become the Force in a way, this is both rare and unreliable, as it can leave you as soon as it enters you.

 

Also, the 'grey' side, this does not exist, simply put, their is no 'grey' side of the force, you are either using the Force(which is commonly misinterpreted as the Light Side) or you are using the Dark Side, there are only two paths, no others.

 

Some people believe the canon states otherwise, in the form of Jolee Bindo, Kreia, Revan and others like Vergere. but this is merely a misunderstanding, they are not 'grey', those like Jolee Bindo and even Qui-Gon Jiin, did not use the 'grey' side or a balanced side, or anything like that, they merely followed the Will of the Force, true, they disagreed with the Jedi Order to varying degrees, but that made them 'Grey Jedi' not Grey Force users, the difference is enormous.

 

Then we have those like Kreia, do not be fooled, she was the Lord of Betrayals the entire time, she lied and manipulated everyone around her, she was clearly still using the Dark Side of the Force, but with a Force Mask just like Palpatine's, she was vindictive, she allowed the Jedi Order to almost die out, just so she could prove her theories and teachings right, she manipulated the Exile herself, let loose multiple Sith Lords on the galaxy, she was always the Lord of Betrayals, never did she stop being so, she became so vengeful she blamed the Force itself, not her own failures and attempted to wipe out the Force, she just could not bring herself to admit that she wrong until she was on death's doorstep, "Perhaps all I am is an old woman, who has come to despise that which she relies upon."

 

There is no grey side of the Force, there are only the misinterpretations of canon sources.

[MyDarkSunshine]

Also, the 'grey' side, this does not exist, simply put, their is no 'grey' side of the force, you are either using the Force(which is commonly misinterpreted as the Light Side) or you are using the Dark Side, there are only two paths, no others.

 

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes"...

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. Nice summary, and definitely worth posting. You, and others, have been repeating yourselves a lot recently- this might help with that. Not sure it is the most interesting 'model' the Force could follow, but it definitely seems to be the intended model (not a great fan of some choices Lucas has made).

 

The Force can only be 'used' and the term 'used' is kind of misleading, because 'Light Side' force users do not wield or control the Force, they let it flow through them, guide their actions, their every movement is through the force's will, they embrace the Force and become an extension of it.

 

Could you expand upon this, please? It seems... odd they're merely puppets of the Force, and that their every action is guided by its will. In fact, the Force always seems to respond to the needs of the Jedi (not vice-versa); be it to leap exceptional distances, throw an enemy back or shield against the Darkside. A misunderstanding on my part I'm sure, but it is an interesting concept.

 

Cheers.

[Dartanel]

Think of it this way:

The term 'Living Force' is meant to be taken literally. The Force is a macrocosmic being to which every living being in the Galaxy belongs, much like we are a collection of cells bound into a larger entity.

Force Sensitives are much like nerve cells, a particular breed of cell that's slightly more aware of its existence as part of something greater.

 

A light sided Force user accepts their part in the greater whole. Through that oneness they call to the Whole for guidance, and call to the Whole for action. A light Force User picking up an object with telekinesis is analogous to when an itchy patch of skin compels you to scratch. That small patch of skin called to you for action and you responded.

 

A dark sided Force user uses self-centered passions and negative emotions to rip away from the Whole, grasping and tearing what energies it can. And by the very act of ripping this energy away, the energy rots and withers, becoming what is known as Dark Side energy. Dark Side Force users are, at best, parasites and, at worst, cancerous blights on the Galaxy.

 

So, yeah, it might sound like a Light Sided Force user is a slave, but they're a slave to a master with no will of its own. The Force doesn't have an Ego. It isn't self aware, nor does it have a will to impose upon itself. So Light Siders are slaves to a master that blindly responds to their commands without question or thought.

[Aurbere]

Darn you Rayla! I was going to make a post similar to this. I completely agree with everything you said. I will expand on my opinion on the sides and their relationship with the Force later.

[smartalectwo]

Could you expand upon this, please? It seems... odd they're merely puppets of the Force, and that their every action is guided by its will. In fact, the Force always seems to respond to the needs of the Jedi (not vice-versa); be it to leap exceptional distances, throw an enemy back or shield against the Darkside. A misunderstanding on my part I'm sure, but it is an interesting concept.

 

I guess Luke and Obi-Wan spelled this seeming contradiction out better than anyone else could.

 

"You mean it controls your actions?"

"Partially. But it also obeys your commands."

[Rayla_Felana]

I guess Luke and Obi-Wan spelled this seeming contradiction out better than anyone else could.

 

"You mean it controls your actions?"

"Partially. But it also obeys your commands."

 

Basically this.

 

The Force does not entirely control you and you do not entirely control it, it's a symbiotic circle, the Dark Side is the extreme to this, you 'control' it completely, but it also 100% dominates you and your mind and 99% of the time, that control cannot be relinquished.

[Rayla_Felana]

Darn you Rayla! I was going to make a post similar to this. I completely agree with everything you said. I will expand on my opinion on the sides and their relationship with the Force later.

 

I was actually waiting, but no one bothered, so I took up the mantel of the Defender of the Canon, for this small community.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Grr Rayla! I wanted to do something like this too! But sadly, every time I tried I couldn't think of how to word it to where everyone would understand with what I was trying to say. :/ But glad to see something was put up!

[Rayla_Felana]

Grr Rayla! I wanted to do something like this too! But sadly, every time I tried I couldn't think of how to word it to where everyone would understand with what I was trying to say. :/ But glad to see something was put up!

 

Honestly, how I wish those like Niarcmorn hadn't have finished back in the day, you think people like us and Walsh, etc... know how to debate? Nia was the fricking Grand Master of debate on these boards, with he/she(never did find out who Nia was) was still around.

[Vespassian]

That was pretty awesome Hope to see more like this

[Captain_Zone]

However, it is possible for an extended period of time to walk a balance point between light and dark. Mace Windu did it with Vaapad. Using negative enotions in his combat style. Also, the Je'Daii (before the first Great Schism) used both sides, though not at the same exact time. Then there's Revan's theory that positive emotions strengthen the connection to the Light. There are a lot of questions that go unanswered, and we can't always trust George Lucas to clarify things. He changes his mind about stuff. Sometimes on a daily basis. I know all the arguments, but just because something hasn't been done yet, doesn't mean it can't be done. At this point in time, it's only impossible because George doesn't believe in shades of grey.... in spite of all evidence to the contrary in the world around us.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Honestly, how I wish those like Niarcmorn hadn't have finished back in the day, you think people like us and Walsh, etc... know how to debate? Nia was the fricking Grand Master of debate on these boards, with he/she(never did find out who Nia was) was still around.

 

Oh yes do remember Nia.

[Aurbere]

I was actually waiting, but no one bothered, so I took up the mantel of the Defender of the Canon, for this small community.

 

It's late where I am now so I'll expand on my thoughts on this subject. As for the Mantle of Canon-Defense. I think that those who know canon like you and Walsh should be at the forefront on that subject. I would include myself, but I'm catching up on some post- ROTJ reading Mainly FOTJ. At least someone started something.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Aurbere

[TheManAndres]

Could you please explain how the force does not have a will yet darkside users are dominated? doesn't that contradict about the force not having a will? I mean you cannot be controlled by something that does not give directions so to speak.

 

Let me add I haven't read any of the books except the Revan novel by Drew Karpashyne (probably spelled wrong) so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited August 12, 2012 by TheManAndres

[Rayla_Felana]

Could you please explain how the force does not have a will yet darkside users are dominated? doesn't that contradict about the force not having a will? I mean you cannot be controlled by something that does not give directions so to speak.

 

Let me add I haven't read any of the books except the Revan novel by Drew Karpashyne (probably spelled wrong) so please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

The Force does have a will, it very clearly does.

[grandmthethird]

in the other thread i admit i didn't really fully understand what ppl were arguing, i thought they were talking about a lightside person using dark side ability or visa-versa, i didn't realize some ppl were talking about using both at the same time. ok so using both dark and light at the same time sounds very much like trying to make ice-cubes in the heart of a furnace. pretty much sounds impossible.

 

but drew does say revan uses the dark and the light at the same time. now lets be fair, as far as i know rayla, and every1 else here does not work for LA, and are not in charge of retconing anything. drew does work for or at least freelances for LA, and so far nothing in the revan novel has be retconned. so as it stands right now. the impossible sounding thing that revan does is C-cannon (i still hate the cannon system) until its officially degraded to N-cannon. the ppl that says its possible are infact the ones that are right.

 

and you can't say it contradicts existing cannon, so it can't happen. Eratosthenes proved the earth was round and completely changed the way every1 thought. the write brothers contradicted our knowledge of how things work when they flew for them few short moments. no just because it has never happened before and just because every1 in the star wars universe believes it to be impossible. and you have cannon accounts of ppl saying its impossible or ppl trying and failings, does not mean it can never happen. presidents can be set at any time, and indeed the first time they are set they contradict what we already know. as i like to say. never say never

 

anyway i hope they do make it N-cannon and do keep it as impossible. but till they do,,,,

 

(if they have already made it N-cannon ignore my post )

[Fyurii]

Rayla needs a job with Lucas Licencing. NOW!

 

Or rather, Lucas Licencing needs to give Rayla a job. NOW!

Edited August 12, 2012 by Fyurii

[Rayla_Felana]

snip.

 

But Revan doesn't use both, what he described 'The Light and Dark flooding into him like two rushing rivers' actually describes, achieving Oneness with the Force, it is almost the same description as when Jacen Solo achieved Oneness with the Force, this is the misinterpretation of what Drew wrote, that Revan could use both sides simultaneously, he could not, he achieved oneness with the force, besides that battle Reborn Revan, was predominantly a Light Side Force User, but when under extreme stress in battle, he would start to let the Dark Side in, any Force User can do this, Anakin Skywalker did it for years, the only difference is, is that Revan had a working proficiency in Dark Side techniques, but this also drew him to the Dark Side and insanity.

[Rayla_Felana]

Rayla needs a job with Lucas Licencing. NOW!

 

Or rather, Lucas Licencing needs to give Rayla a job. NOW!

 

Rofl, thanks.

[grandmthethird]

But Revan doesn't use both, what he described 'The Light and Dark flooding into him like two rushing rivers' actually describes, achieving Oneness with the Force, it is almost the same description as when Jacen Solo achieved Oneness with the Force, this is the misinterpretation of what Drew wrote, that Revan could use both sides simultaneously, he could not, he achieved oneness with the force, besides that battle Reborn Revan, was predominantly a Light Side Force User, but when under extreme stress in battle, he would start to let the Dark Side in, any Force User can do this, Anakin Skywalker did it for years, the only difference is, is that Revan had a working proficiency in Dark Side techniques, but this also drew him to the Dark Side and insanity.

 

yet again, i seem to be missing the point .

 

so just so i'm clear, you are not saying you think or want the events in revan novel to be changed to N-cannon. you just think ppl are getting wrong idea and not understanding what they are reading?

[Rayla_Felana]

yet again, i seem to be missing the point .

 

so just so i'm clear, you are not saying you think or want the events in revan novel to be changed to N-cannon. you just think ppl are getting wrong idea and not understanding what they are reading?

 

Pretty much, a lot of people misinterpret things like these, I wanted to clear things up, canonically.

[Aurbere]

Ok, so here are my opinions on the Force. I will break it down into multiple sections to make it easier for people to reply. I apologize if it is a long post. Which it probably will be

 

Section 01: Relationship of Force users to the Force

The relationship between Force users and the Force is symbiotic. The Force controls your actions, but also obeys your commands. The Force works through Jedi, where the Dark Side dominates Sith. It is still symbiotic for both groups, but the Dark Side clearly has the more dominating role. When you embrace the Dark Side, it dominates you forever turning you into something you never thought you could become. Whereas Jedi become at peace and allow the Force to work through them, not on a grand scale like the Dark Side, but only slightly so that Jedi are able to use their own free will. That pretty much sums up the Force and its relationship to those who use it.

 

Section 02: Taking sides

There are no sides to the Force. It is believed that their is a Light Side and a Dark Side. This notion is false. The Force is purely Light Side. Harmony, peace, and tranquility are at the core of the Force, something Yoda attempted to achieve during his lifetime. The Dark Side seeks conflict, sending the Force out of balance(more on that later). Conflict disturbs the natural harmony of the galaxy and The Force. The Dark Side is sort of like the Anti-Force. The reason it is called Dark Side, I don't know, but Dark Side sounds cooler than Anti-Force. The Dark Side is completely separate from The Force.

 

Section 03: Grey

Since there are no sides, there is no grey area to be found. There are "Grey Jedi" but they are still Light Side users who follow their own instincts and the Will of the Force. As it happens, some grey Jedi fall to the Dark Side. I believe Dooku is the most well known. He was a Jedi, but as he saw the corruption of the Republic he went from Jedi to Grey Jedi to Sith Lord. But there are Grey Jedi that either lived in vast jungles(Jolee) or still served the Jedi(Qui-Gon).

 

Section 04: Balance

The topic of balance seems to confuse people. One theory is that there should be an equal number of Sith to the number of Jedi. This would mean that there should have been a couple thousand Banite Sith running around during the PT. Since Sith hate Jedi this would lead to war between the Jedi and Sith(again). But since the Force is not double sided, the only way to achieve balance is to remove the corruption which would be the Sith. The Force was brought back into balance when the Emperor died and Vader was turned back to the Light. Balance occurs when the Dark Side is destroyed. But the Dark Side cannot fully be destroyed because of evil people who get ahold of powers beyond their comprehension and then use them to take over the galaxy. Thus it is left to the Jedi to defeat any evil that arises and restore balance.

 

Section 05: Revan

I titled it Revan because he deserves his own section. Not because of his character, but because of the controversy caused by the Revan novel. More importantly, the part where Revan "uses" both Light and Dark at the same time. The scene sounds more like he is displaying oneness with the Force (as Rayla said earlier), but this can be mistaken for Revan mastering both sides. That's impossible. In order to master either side you must meet certain criteria. For the "Light Side" you must be in complete control of your emotions, be at peace, and have a calm mind. For the "Dark Side", you must harness your powerful and hateful emotions and channel them at those you hate. So in order to use both, you must be at peace like a calm river's flow, but also be emanating hatred like heat from lava. Doesn't work. And as to oneness, I don't see Revan being capable of doing that. If anyone could correct me on that note please do so.

 

Again, sorry for the long post but these topics need to be cleared up. I will post a section 06 later, but this post is long enough.

[MyDarkSunshine]

Thank you all whom replied to my question.

 

Look forward to section 6, Aurbere.

 

What are the effects of positive emotions (love, hope, joy) on a users connection to the Force, if any? Are they linked to the light, or are any emotions a one way path to the darkside, as some Jedi seem to believe?

 

The Force does have a will, it very clearly does.

 

What is the will of the Force?

[Rayla_Felana]

What is the will of the Force?

 

Never been explained but it is confirmed that it does have one.

[Aurbere]

Thank you all whom replied to my question.

 

Look forward to section 6, Aurbere.

 

What are the effects of positive emotions (love, hope, joy) on a users connection to the Force, if any? Are they linked to the light, or are any emotions a one way path to the darkside, as some Jedi seem to believe?

 

 

 

What is the will of the Force?

 

Your question on emotions just gave me an idea for section 6 thank you. I'm sure section 6 will answer that question specifically.