Carnage Marauders/Combat Sentinels Roots

[bbare]

I'm sure it's been discussed before and I'm sure it will be discussed again, but it seems to be one of the lesser complaints about the class. While everyone cries for nerfs to Undying Rage because they don't know what they are talking about, a much more glaring problem stares us all right in the face. This spec as the ability to root a target for 8 or 9(I'm not sure on the duration of leap's root) seconds at a time when the right set of abilities are chained together. Leap roots target for 2-3 seconds (again, not sure), Ravage for an additional 3(although can be defended against with stuns and knockbacks) and whatever the healing debuff is called roots the target for another 3. What this means is that even at full resolve, a carnage mara/ combat sent can keep you immobilized for 8 seconds. 8 seconds! No other class in the game has the ability to control another player for that long. Not to mention for 3 of those seconds you're getting hit by Ravage, the hardest hitting ability in the game. Surely I'm not the only one who sees a problem with this.

 

inb4 maras come in here and complain about sniper roots.

 

One simple interrupt and ravage turns into a wet noodle.

[kweassa]

I play a carnage marauder and I've never come close to keeping anyone rooted for 9 seconds. I hardly ever even land the 3rd ravage hit. There's just too much CC getting thrown around. The only ones I usually can hit with it are guardians, and it does pitiful damage to them. On my sage or scoundrel, I find it much easier to deal with a carnage marauder than annihilation. Maybe you can't run away from carnage roots, but trying to run away from annihilation just means a swift death. So why do I play carnage? I like making my team run super fast, and killing with DoTs just doesn't seem very marauder-y to me.

 

While I do not agree with you that there are too much CC in the game, the point you brought up is valid.

 

The thing is, in these kind of whiney posts, for some reason it is ALWAYS the WORST possible scenario the whiner assumes. I mean, in between the Force leap - Crippling Throw - MS... something like 6~7 seconds of 3 skills used in a row, don't they fight back? No retaliation? Is the victim of the attack a walking sandbag? A crash-test dummy or something?

 

They always assume the most exotic, most fantastic, and most ruthless of enemy attacks and combos will always happen, and the enemy always succeeds in their attempt -- while the receiving end will always experienced the worst of results possible.

 

What's next? Rage/Focus mara/sentinels dealing too much AoE damage?

 

(ps) feeling bad, since it seems Combat/Carnage is now becoming the new FotM. Been using Combat/Carnage since when everyone "knew" the standard, best choice of sentinel/maras were Watchman/Annihilation. Always thought, and expressed that Combat/Carnage was always underrated, and its actually extremely versatile.

 

Now, the hordes are realizing it, and moving over to Combat/Carnage..

 

Meh... better change spec to Focus/Rage, now.

Edited August 8, 2012 by kweassa

[Pvtcarnage]

One simple interrupt and ravage turns into a wet noodle.

 

SSSSHHHHHHHHH let them cry, don't tell them how EASY it is to counter lol

[kweassa]

SSSSHHHHHHHHH let them cry, don't tell them how EASY it is to counter lol

 

..unfortunately, about 80% of people in WZs are simply hopeless idiots, which are the same people who come here and whine about stuff. These people make it a habit to just throw down a CC without regard to the situation... and cannot even watch and observe an enemy under sleep/mez effects.

 

So what will happen is, against a sent/mara, they go "oh noes! CC him!" and just simply throw up whatever CC they have all around him, give him a nice instant full resolve, and then get hit by uninterruptable MS/Rvg.

 

Tragic, ain't it?

[Pvtcarnage]

..unfortunately, about 80% of people in WZs are simply hopeless idiots, which are the same people who come here and whine about stuff. These people make it a habit to just throw down a CC without regard to the situation... and cannot even watch and observe an enemy under sleep/mez effects.

 

So what will happen is, against a sent/mara, they go "oh noes! CC him!" and just simply throw up whatever CC they have all around him, give him a nice instant full resolve, and then get hit by uninterruptable MS/Rvg.

 

Tragic, ain't it?

 

Tragic for them >8)

But how they don't get it is beyond me. I would maybe believe some of these nerf stories if it was not for the fact that other players I play against have no problem dealing with the stuff they cry about.

[Kawiki]

Are teams of root locking carnage marauders forcing people to quit?

[fungihoujo]

One simple interrupt and ravage turns into a wet noodle.

 

Must have missed the memo- the one where ravage can't be interrupted any more. You have to use a mez, stun or KB- meaning not having it for another situation, or filling up the resolve... and if they're already full resolve you're SOL- whereas a carnage mara doesn't care about resolve- why would they, with all the roots they have?

 

Wouldn't make sense for mara to have a single ability that can be interrupted with actual interrupts. Nope, they get free reign over abilities that get the job down without worrying about resolve... and escapes... and short CD gap closers... and the best defensive CDs... and the most instant abilities that can be used while moving.

 

Well, come the end of the month it'll only be marauders playing this game anyway- so enjoy sticking to your guns that no matter what happens, marauders are perfectly fine where they are.

[SinnedWill]

When are folks going to learn to buy a 2nd set of relics (and possibly gear) for when they notice that the enemy team is weapon-based attack (mara/sent/sniper/slinger) heavy? Seriously, if you stack defense chance, you'll evade more, causing you to suffer fewer roots (roots are becoming more and more prominent now, but you can swap to 2x defense relics and redoubt augmented gear for these situations, though this is done most effectively by inquis/consular classes and quite a few tanks) - also, many roots can be "disspelled", though there are some exceptions (charge, for example).

 

Out of all the carnage marauder roots (and yes, 9s duration IS possible, though most don't take the talent for the extra 1s duration from charge), ONLY the root-talented ravage cannot be evaded (though its attacks can be). Fortunately for recipients of the root+ravage, the carnage marauder is in your face, so you can simply use ANY stun/knockback/mez/knockdown/etc. to stop it.

 

Carnage Marauder is NOT the biggest DPS spec for marauders as someone stated earlier (easiest offensive windows to counter/shutdown, single-target short-term burst dps, majority of attacks are weapon-based - thus, easily countered with accuracy debuffs/defensive cooldowns with defense chance increases/defense chance stacking - though they do have one very effective force-based attack -force scream-).

 

It's also difficult to play carnage marauder effectively (against good opponents that know how/when to counter them); you either play carnage marauder supportively (popping predation ~90% of the time you have a full stack of fury -which greatly improves your group's efficiency-, and you primarily focus on pressuring healers) or you can play it as a greedy stat-padder who tunnel-visions on enemies (popping berserk most of the time) - these players tend to let many objectives get capped despite being near the objective.

[mulzii]

8 seconds? .... Shadow's or Scoundrels' spammable 8s mez? Consular's Lift or Smuggler's Flashbang? Sure we can do it when they have full resolve, but don't act like we're the only class that can keep someone still for 8s at a time. Better yet, in a mez they don't/can't fight back, but what about when we're rooting you?

 

true. But when you consider that they can force cloak, undying rage, roots/snares, etc. thats a bit excessive for surviviability when factoring in the massive dps they put out. A tweak here or there on def cooldowns would balance them out a bit.

[Pvtcarnage]

When are folks going to learn to buy a 2nd set of relics (and possibly gear) for when they notice that the enemy team is weapon-based attack (mara/sent/sniper/slinger) heavy? Seriously, if you stack defense chance, you'll evade more, causing you to suffer fewer roots (roots are becoming more and more prominent now, but you can swap to 2x defense relics and redoubt augmented gear for these situations, though this is done most effectively by inquis/consular classes and quite a few tanks) - also, many roots can be "disspelled", though there are some exceptions (charge, for example).

 

Out of all the carnage marauder roots (and yes, 9s duration IS possible, though most don't take the talent for the extra 1s duration from charge), ONLY the root-talented ravage cannot be evaded (though its attacks can be). Fortunately for recipients of the root+ravage, the carnage marauder is in your face, so you can simply use ANY stun/knockback/mez/knockdown/etc. to stop it.

 

Carnage Marauder is NOT the biggest DPS spec for marauders as someone stated earlier (easiest offensive windows to counter/shutdown, single-target short-term burst dps, majority of attacks are weapon-based - thus, easily countered with accuracy debuffs/defensive cooldowns with defense chance increases/defense chance stacking - though they do have one very effective force-based attack -force scream-).

 

It's also difficult to play carnage marauder effectively (against good opponents that know how/when to counter them); you either play carnage marauder supportively (popping predation ~90% of the time you have a full stack of fury -which greatly improves your group's efficiency-, and you primarily focus on pressuring healers) or you can play it as a greedy stat-padder who tunnel-visions on enemies (popping berserk most of the time) - these players tend to let many objectives get capped despite being near the objective.

 

Very well said, If it were not for playing against your guild I might have thought we are over powered but you guys make it clear that TEAM play and knowing how to handle sentinels shows that others here just don't know how to play.

 

See on the battle field,

Alen -Sentinel - Shadowlands

Edited August 8, 2012 by Pvtcarnage

[dcgregorya]

Must have missed the memo- the one where ravage can't be interrupted any more. You have to use a mez, stun or KB- meaning not having it for another situation, or filling up the resolve... and if they're already full resolve you're SOL- whereas a carnage mara doesn't care about resolve- why would they, with all the roots they have?

 

Wouldn't make sense for mara to have a single ability that can be interrupted with actual interrupts. Nope, they get free reign over abilities that get the job down without worrying about resolve... and escapes... and short CD gap closers... and the best defensive CDs... and the most instant abilities that can be used while moving.

 

Well, come the end of the month it'll only be marauders playing this game anyway- so enjoy sticking to your guns that no matter what happens, marauders are perfectly fine where they are.

 

You can interrupt it with one of those supposedly useless knockbacks that most people have.

[Belly]

Are teams of root locking carnage marauders forcing people to quit?

 

LOL! nice!

[bbare]

Must have missed the memo- the one where ravage can't be interrupted any more. You have to use a mez, stun or KB- meaning not having it for another situation, or filling up the resolve... and if they're already full resolve you're SOL- whereas a carnage mara doesn't care about resolve- why would they, with all the roots they have?

 

Wouldn't make sense for mara to have a single ability that can be interrupted with actual interrupts. Nope, they get free reign over abilities that get the job down without worrying about resolve... and escapes... and short CD gap closers... and the best defensive CDs... and the most instant abilities that can be used while moving.

 

Well, come the end of the month it'll only be marauders playing this game anyway- so enjoy sticking to your guns that no matter what happens, marauders are perfectly fine where they are.

 

I'd use a knockback to interrupt a ravage that can hit me for 10k, lol. Seems like a nice trade-off. Have fun QQ'ing for nerfs of classes you don't know how to defend against. Not all classes are meant to be equal to other classes. Some classes are better against other classes. Marauders are good against healers. Marauders are terrible against darkness/madness assassins. Darkness/Madness assassins are good against other dps and tanks. Darkness/Madness assassins are terrible against healers. Its a chess game, learn to play it.

[ArchangelLBC]

I'd use a knockback to interrupt a ravage that can hit me for 10k, lol. Seems like a nice trade-off. Have fun QQ'ing for nerfs of classes you don't know how to defend against. Not all classes are meant to be equal to other classes. Some classes are better against other classes. Marauders are good against healers. Marauders are terrible against darkness/madness assassins. Darkness/Madness assassins are good against other dps and tanks. Darkness/Madness assassins are terrible against healers. Its a chess game, learn to play it.

 

That's not how chess works.

 

 

I have nothing else to add to this thread. Complaining about the roots Combat Sents have is just getting silly.

[vimm]

That's not how chess works.

 

 

I have nothing else to add to this thread. Complaining about the roots Combat Sents have is just getting silly.

 

Indeed, it's nothing like chess, lol.

[dronepilot]

You can interrupt it with one of those supposedly useless knockbacks that most people have.

 

They ARE useless. Believing otherwise is not truth

[unixbomber]

I play a carnage marauder and I've never come close to keeping anyone rooted for 9 seconds. I hardly ever even land the 3rd ravage hit. There's just too much CC getting thrown around.

 

Just wait to use master strike until they've filled your resolve and then it's gg. What's that? They won't fill your resolve? There's always that guy and he mostly certainly will fill your resolve. Chances are he might not even be fighting you and will change targets or run out of his way to fill it. When he's not doing that he's typically walking the ledges of the huttball pit conviently available to be lept to with a look of surprise.

[GrantyJPS]

Ok, so after a few months of nerf marauders threads and their rebuttals, I have gleaned the following informations:-

 

Stun Cloak of Pain or just dont attack (!)

Knockback rooted Ravage

Knockback to gain some distance or be crushed by heavy instant DPS and interrupts.

Cleanse the spammable snare

Cleanse the dots

Stun UR

Don't use half your attacks when obfuscated

Don't use those same attacks when sabre ward is up

Get a trooper to stealth-scan Force Camo escape/gap closer

 

Edit: forgot Run away to your team screaming for help

 

And whatever you do, DONT FILL HIS RESOLVE!!!

 

And to be fair, after a few months PvPing on my commando, here is the reverse.

 

Don't start with leap

Interrupt Grav Round

CC break cryo

Smash his stupid armored face in.

Edited August 9, 2012 by GrantyJPS

[Zunayson]

Snipers can do 10.

 

FROM RANGE. WITHOUT SPEC'ING INTO ANYTHING.

[Ssfbistimg]

And by gamebreaking survivability do you mean, you are not smart enough to save 1 single stun for when you see those single digit numbers?

 

I mean really game breaking.. I laugh everytime I see that. It's so easy to counter that its laughable everytime I see someone complain about it.

 

no im smart enuff for it, but the rest of my team might not be

[foxmob]

I'd use a knockback to interrupt a ravage that can hit me for 10k, lol. Seems like a nice trade-off. Have fun QQ'ing for nerfs of classes you don't know how to defend against. Not all classes are meant to be equal to other classes. Some classes are better against other classes. Marauders are good against healers. Marauders are terrible against darkness/madness assassins. Darkness/Madness assassins are good against other dps and tanks. Darkness/Madness assassins are terrible against healers. Its a chess game, learn to play it.

 

what are commando/merc dps good against?

[Macabrae]

The crying never ends, I: think all the complainers need to go back to wow and play the mess they left their with nerfs

 

This. I could not have said it better. I slaughter Maras on my Assasin/Operative with ease, my personal opinion is they definitely do NOT need a nerf.

[Derian]

Its probably the spec for the laziest and least skilled marauders out there. I guess bioware needs to cater to everyone in this game.

 

I have played both specs extensively. I played Combat/Carnage back before Annihilation became the better spec (Closed beta). I am now Combat.

 

Maxing out the potential for watchman is def harder because you have to properly apply the burns to and zen at the right moment for maximum damage. However, I don't really have a problem stayinmg in melee reange. The roots are more useful for things like causing terror in huttball, than catching up to a target but they are nice.

[Derian]

and sents/maras have an aoe 6 second mez with like a 10 meter range. Not sure where you were headed with that one.

 

10 meters. lol.

[Derian]

A carnage marauder's damage is actually less sustained than a concealment operative and by extension, a sniper, a sorceror, a pyro powertech, an arsenal mercenary, both the assassin DPS specs and naturally an annilation marauder. In addition to that, they have pretty much nothing in the way of AOE.

 

So take it for what it is, the specialization is built for control, utility and short-duration burst. It's brutal in RWZ and on good pick-up groups but it does not put out damage and does not have the survivability that rage and annihilation marauders have.

 

100% correct. Carnage/Combat lacks the survivability of Watchman/Annihilation. It's damage is also very front loaded into an obvious combo which if it's countered, puts their DPS way down. Ttheir roots and transendence are what makes this class, not it's damage output.