Purpose of Tank Gear in PvP???

[Maraxuss]

Everywhere I look people are saying that pvp tank gear is not acceptable in pvp...that a full tank should instead be wearing pvp dps gear. As a matter of fact further still people say that a full tank shouldnt even be a full tank, they should be a hybrid tank/dps. That a full tank in pvp tank gear is actually a hindrance to the team, not a help. Is this true?

 

If so how can the devs make PvP tank gearb for a tank actually preferable over the dps set? Obviousely the devs want tanks to wear tank gear or it wouldnt exist, but players say it sucks....so just how exactly should they fix it?

 

How should the devs make it more preferable for a tank to ACTUALLY fill up his tank tree with skill points 31 instead of going sometype of hybrid spec for PvP??

 

Why cant a tank just be a tank wearing the gear that was made for him, and what needs to be changed?

[lexiekaboom]

First, sentinels and marauders don't have a tank gear set so there already is no "purpose" in tank gear seeing having it would require you to be something other then one of the two classes that have any purpose at all in PVP.

 

Second, as posted in the shadow nerf FAQ by bioware; they are aware shield and defense do next to nothing and that mitigation is the only stat that maters to a tank. They have no plans on fixing this.

[paul_preib]

Biggest thing to make a tank specced/geared tank better off would probably be to increase what a shield will actually work against. Perhaps make it so it it gets full block rating against white damage, 50% against tech/force, this way it doesn't make you unstoppable, but justifies shields, opening up shield based talents, shield and absorb rating on gear, etc.

 

This would also help improve the niche of non-burst dot specs whose internal damage would still be fully effective against tanks.

[Altheran]

What is needed in order to make tank gear interesting for tank players ?

 

Simple answer : make defensive rates and stats effective regardless of attack type. (Just DoTs will ignore them once they're put on the tank)

Edited August 7, 2012 by Altheran

[dcgregorya]

I'll put it this way (read through the whole thing and hopefully it'll make sense).

 

The PVP gear discussion for tanks is a metagame discussion. A similar metagame discussion is around Sentinels. Sentinels have 3 specs - Watchman, Focus and Combat. Focus is AOE damage and survivability, Combat has a lot of roots and team utility, Sentinel has self heals and high single target DPS. For ranked warzones, Combat is king when you have 1 Sentinel on your team. They work with the team to root and kill and provide 80% speed buff frequently throughout the match to give your team a mobility advantage. Combat however is a poor choice for solo queuing, because when you are solo queuing the individual need to perform (and thereby compensate for weaker players on your team) is *MORE EFFECTIVE* than team utility. Hence, Focus and Watchman are desirable for solo queuing.

 

Tank gear on a tank makes them survive longer and do less damage. A fully tank geared and spec'd person is good at providing guard, reducing the damage of the enemy team and carrying the Huttball. They have a high effective armor rating but more importantly the tank gear allows them to dodge weapon attacks or shield them. The issue with the tank gear is that many attacks are not shieldable. However, many others are. And it is balanced in that sense - I can completely dodge a rail shot for instance and thereby avoid 4k worth of damage. In return I do about 30% less DPS. Since the fully tank geared tank is a full on support role, it does not have much of a place in solo queuing because pick-up teams DO NOT DO WELL AT SUPPORTING EACH OTHER. It is likely that your team has no healer or that your team has very poor damage and healing and damage are more important, overall, than pure mitigation. A tank without a healer will never win a fight in tank gear. A tank behind a healer can hold up an enemy team however for quite a long time and the tank can keep the healer alive indefinitely.

 

In other words, tank gear is not broken and Bioware doesn't need to do anything about it. It all comes down to the preferred playstyle and right now there is no good playstyle for a solo queued tank. The only thing I might suggest is doubling the length of taunt in tank gear as part of the set bonus. Short of that I would not mess with tank gear at all.

 

IF defensive stats worked regardless of the attack type then a guardian tank behind a healer would be *INVINCIBLE*. Guardians have dodge, Vanguards have armor and shield, Shadows have shield and self healing. The balance between armor, shield and dodge has to do with the fact that some attacks can be blocked some ways and not others. If you remove that balance, suddenly guardians are invulnerable and vanguards and shadows would be invulnerable to snipers and carnage marauders only - and you'd have teams with nothing but healers and tanks trying to outlast the opponents based on spawn timers. It's a bad idea.

Edited August 7, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Aluvi]

I'll put it this way (read through the whole thing and hopefully it'll make sense).

 

The PVP gear discussion for tanks is a metagame discussion. A similar metagame discussion is around Sentinels. Sentinels have 3 specs - Watchman, Focus and Combat. Focus is AOE damage and survivability, Combat has a lot of roots and team utility, Sentinel has self heals and high single target DPS. For ranked warzones, Combat is king when you have 1 Sentinel on your team. They work with the team to root and kill and provide 80% speed buff frequently throughout the match to give your team a mobility advantage. Combat however is a poor choice for solo queuing, because when you are solo queuing the individual need to perform (and thereby compensate for weaker players on your team) is *MORE EFFECTIVE* than team utility. Hence, Focus and Watchman are desirable for solo queuing.

 

Tank gear on a tank makes them survive longer and do less damage. A fully tank geared and spec'd person is good at providing guard, reducing the damage of the enemy team and carrying the Huttball. They have a high effective armor rating but more importantly the tank gear allows them to dodge weapon attacks or shield them. The issue with the tank gear is that many attacks are not shieldable. However, many others are. And it is balanced in that sense - I can completely dodge a rail shot for instance and thereby avoid 4k worth of damage. In return I do about 30% less DPS. Since the fully tank geared tank is a full on support role, it does not have much of a place in solo queuing because pick-up teams DO NOT DO WELL AT SUPPORTING EACH OTHER. It is likely that your team has no healer or that your team has very poor damage and healing and damage are more important, overall, than pure mitigation. A tank without a healer will never win a fight in tank gear. A tank behind a healer can hold up an enemy team however for quite a long time and the tank can keep the healer alive indefinitely.

 

In other words, tank gear is not broken and Bioware doesn't need to do anything about it. It all comes down to the preferred playstyle and right now there is no good playstyle for a solo queued tank. The only thing I might suggest is doubling the length of taunt in tank gear as part of the set bonus. Short of that I would not mess with tank gear at all.

 

IF defensive stats worked regardless of the attack type then a guardian tank behind a healer would be *INVINCIBLE*. Guardians have dodge, Vanguards have armor and shield, Shadows have shield and self healing. The balance between armor, shield and dodge has to do with the fact that some attacks can be blocked some ways and not others. If you remove that balance, suddenly guardians are invulnerable and vanguards and shadows would be invulnerable to snipers and carnage marauders only - and you'd have teams with nothing but healers and tanks trying to outlast the opponents based on spawn timers. It's a bad idea.

 

Very well put man. I guess the biggest flaw here is that, while as a marauder (equivalent of what this poster was talking about on imp side) I can respec to any of the 3 mentioned roles (Annihilation for solo survivability / self +team heals and good sustained dps, carnage for roots/burst damage, killing healers and high priority dps, plus speed buffs and utility, or Rage for full on aoe LOLSMASH dps.), a TANK in tank gear and spec, cannot simply respec. He has 2 sets of gear, one for full on tanking in pvp and one for dpsing while solo queing in pvp.

 

I confess. I play different specs as a marauder depending on the type of pvp. Group pvp with 2 healers, I like to go rage or carnage, depending on what else we have in the group. Solo queue its all about annihilation; I can't count on others to heal me, and it offers the best survivability, similar dps, but less burst dmg. that isn't to say I don't have different stat priorities, and maybe in a perfect world would min/max my set with different mods depending on the spec I play, but realistically, one generic dps set will work OK for all of these specs, as they all focus on dealing damage.

 

You, as a tank, do not have that luxury. If you spec dps, you need a whole new set of gear. I think, on the whole, you would find more utility in having a dps set and then speccing full tank or hybrid when you queue with friends or in a rated team. Please note also, you can substantially help your teammates in a "tank role" even with dps gear. A Jugg for instance can pop into Soresu form and guard a healer, while working taunts into his rotation for reduce enemy damage. I think this is one of the most underused and underestimated abilities that any class with the potential to tank has over pure dps - the ability to taunt high priority dps targets and substantially lower their dps. The fact that you don't see this reduction amount on scoreboards does not diminish it's effectiveness, it just means you get less recognition, which is a shame.

 

PvP in SWTOR is very dynamic and team based, and that is why premade teams do so much better than solo queue pugs. Tanks reduce damage output of enemies by slowing, stunning, disabling, taunting, and guarding healers and friendly high priority dpsers on their team. Healers make up for the damage that everyone else does to your team, while dps dishes it out. SWTOR has done an excellent job of integrating tank play into pvp and making them just as important and viable in team play, unlike other games like WoW, where a tank might have one very small specific role in one warzone - like carrying the flag. Hope that made some kind of sense.

[CaptainObvious]

 

IF defensive stats worked regardless of the attack type then a guardian tank behind a healer would be *INVINCIBLE*. Guardians have dodge, Vanguards have armor and shield, Shadows have shield and self healing. The balance between armor, shield and dodge has to do with the fact that some attacks can be blocked some ways and not others. If you remove that balance, suddenly guardians are invulnerable and vanguards and shadows would be invulnerable to snipers and carnage marauders only - .......

 

First off, that's the point of a tank/healer combo. You're supposed to be VERY tough to kill. But, really, even if said guardian WAS invincible, if you're focusing on the tank, and he's not carrying the huttball... you need to rethink your strategy, sir.

 

Also, this point is moot, because, as a tank, I can still be killed with a healer. Quite quickly, too. Even though I'm full BM/WH. But as for your invincible guardian, explain how guardians (allegedly the ones who dodge the most) would be invincible when you CANNOT DODGE FORCE AND TECH ATTACKS. They never miss. They're not supposed to. So all those points you worked for in your defense rating don't mean ANYTHING, at least against force/tech attacks.

 

Okay, that's fine, as a tank, I have multiple lines of defense. That's what a shield is for, right? Wait, what? You can't even SHIELD force/tech attacks? REALLY? So, pretty much, force and tech attacks (which EVERY class has PLENTY of) IGNORE EVERYTHING THAT MAKES A TANK A TANK. Some tanks, not all *coughshadows/tankasins cough* have armor mitigation. Nevermind the fact that 2/4 types of damage (elemental and internal) IGNORE ARMOR TOO. So what happens, literally, is that a LARGE portion of attacks in pvp (nevermind that CRITS CAN'T BE SHIELDED EITHER -_- ) make all my hard-earned BM and WH gear WORTHLESS. Why? It's supposed to absorb damage better than dps gear.... yet, for about half the hits you take, it doesn't. at all.

 

This is a huge problem for people like myself who would otherwise pvp more often. It's not fun like this, to not be able to play your role in a role playing game. I've worked for this gear, and specifically chose survivor gear over damage. So, I'm knowingly sacrificing damage output for survivability. Why, then, is it not paying off like it does in pve? Why do I notice NO DIFFERENCE in survivability when I equip a rakata focus instead of a battlemaster shield? Tanking, in its truest form, is severely broken in pvp. Because shielding is.

 

I will say this: I spam my taunts every chance I get. That, plus guarding, gives tanks a lot more utility.

 

But don't tell me taunting and guarding are the great equalizers here and that those abilities somehow justify leaving tanking broken like it is. DPS specs can use taunts JUST as effectively as tank specs. Hell, a recruit dps specced assassin can taunt with EXACTLY the same effectiveness as a full war hero tank spec if he just remembered to do it. So you see, that hard-earned gear is meaningless for this large chunk of tanking "utility".

 

Only thing that's exclusive to tank specs is guard. I'm not about to downplay the importance of guard. But, you know, guard doesn't mitigate MY damage... Nor does taunting mitigate the damage done to ME. God, I hope I don't get focus-fired, cause both me AND the healer will die.

 

Wait... isn't getting focus fired and living what tanking is all about? Why can I take on 3 elites and a champion in Denova and live, and not be able to survive in a freaking 1v2 scenario in huttball?

 

So, basically, I'm saying I wanna be able to take on MULTIPLE opponents and live??

 

YES! THAT'S WHAT TANKING IS!

 

This isn't Halo Team Deathmatch. No one's counting kills (at least, not the smart players that care about winning). Making some players who put time and effort into survivability VERY hard to kill is kinda the point when we're trying to equalize classes. (and allow people to effectively play ROLES in an RPG)

 

I put JUST as many hours into getting my tanking gear as all you marauders/sents/snipers, etc. So let me TANK in my TANKING gear like you can DPS in your DPS gear.

 

and you'd have teams with nothing but healers and tanks trying to outlast the opponents based on spawn timers. It's a bad idea. [/Quote]

 

How many teams like this have you faced? I've NEVER been in a match like this, on either side. Also, say it DOES happen... What's wrong with that? That team wouldn't be able to put out the dps of a balanced team, so that's pretty much all they CAN do, and if they figure that out, good for them. Why does every pvp match have to be exactly the same: a fragfest? If a differently structured team can adapt to their strengths/weaknesses and give the other team something they've not seen before, more power to them!

 

 

I confess. I play different specs as a marauder depending on the type of pvp....

 

.....

 

You, as a tank, do not have that luxury. If you spec dps, you need a whole new set of gear. I think, on the whole, you would find more utility in having a dps set and then speccing full tank or hybrid when you queue with friends or in a rated team. Please note also, you can substantially help your teammates in a "tank role" even with dps gear. A Jugg for instance can pop into Soresu form and guard a healer, while working taunts into his rotation for reduce enemy damage. I think this is one of the most underused and underestimated abilities that any class with the potential to tank has over pure dps - the ability to taunt high priority dps targets and substantially lower their dps. The fact that you don't see this reduction amount on scoreboards does not diminish it's effectiveness, it just means you get less recognition, which is a shame.

 

This is exactly the problem. If the name of the game is class balancing, that's a clear imbalance. I don't even really mind this restriction, as long as the hard work I put into my limited options as a tank pays off.

 

With the defensive mechanics as they are: simply put.... it doesn't. And THAT'S a shame.

[Anishor]

Simple change allowing tanks to defend against tech and force attacks would be nice. Would have to be like

 

Defensive Chance / 3

Shield Chance / 2

Shield Absorb / 1.5

[Altheran]

Quote myself

I think that the choice BioWare made of making Defense Rate to not grant anything against Tech and Force attacks is pointless and a bad design choice.

 

First, i'll explain why it's a pointless choice and then, why it affects badly the game.

 

So why it is pointless, would you say ?

First because even if Tech and Force are designed to not be defendable with gear of equal level of power, the Defensive rate won't change anything because the Accuracy on the gear will overcome it.

The reason of it, is simple : they're is quite the same amount of Accuracy and Defense that people can get on their gear, and their formulas are strictly the same, so if a tank get 350 Defensive rate, a DPS with 350 Accuracy won't be bothered by it, because the tank will have like ~10% of chances to defend, but the accuracy will grant ~110% chances to hit, which will annihilate all the defense chances of the defender.

 

So, if it doesn't change anything why it would be good to change it ?

Because the actual design is bad and allows something that is abnormal.

Accuracy is a stat which is designed to overcome the strength of high defensive specs, and to not stack any of it in order to stack other offensive stats like Power or Surge, is supposed to mean empowering yourself against people who are not supposed to defend (like DPS or healers) and taking risks (should i say gimping ?) when fighting the others (the tanks). But with actual design, when you heavily rely on Tech and Force attacks, doing so means to not take any risks at all and obtening more power against everybody. At first sight, it looks abnormal, but I also believe that only Sages and Sorcerers are designed of doing so, and it is why they don't use Accuracy at all. The actual game-design allows them to afford to not use Accuracy, but allows all the other specs that heavily rely on Tech and Force of doing the same, and I don't believe these ones were supposed to be able to dump so easily their Accuracy without any counterpart. This is what is abnormal.

In addition, it makes people think that Defensive rate is useless, and the more people will believe it and do not stack Defense rate, the more people will think their Accuracy rate isn't worth of it either. Finally, we have "two broken stats" in many people minds.

So I think it is important to make the Defensive rate being universal, just like Accuracy rate is. (Maybe some people will take the "+X% of accuracy" that some specs have but nobody takes, in order to be able to stack more Power or Surge instead of stacking Accuracy)

But it would kill Sage and Sorcerer would you say ? Yeah, this change if implemented alone would kill them. But it's not like if they can't add some "+X% of Force accuracy" in the talents of their DPS specs or/and as a passive buff when choosing the AC (just like the bonus that increase the range or Force attacks up to 30m instead of 10m) in order to keep them effective.

[Tragamite]

Everywhere I look people are saying that pvp tank gear is not acceptable in pvp...that a full tank should instead be wearing pvp dps gear. As a matter of fact further still people say that a full tank shouldnt even be a full tank, they should be a hybrid tank/dps. That a full tank in pvp tank gear is actually a hindrance to the team, not a help. Is this true?

 

If so how can the devs make PvP tank gearb for a tank actually preferable over the dps set? Obviousely the devs want tanks to wear tank gear or it wouldnt exist, but players say it sucks....so just how exactly should they fix it?

 

How should the devs make it more preferable for a tank to ACTUALLY fill up his tank tree with skill points 31 instead of going sometype of hybrid spec for PvP??

 

Why cant a tank just be a tank wearing the gear that was made for him, and what needs to be changed?

 

While there is some good info posted here, the biggest issues with Tanks being tanks in PvP is that they are limited in tanking. Let me explain...

 

Shields have a chance to absorb melee/kinetic normal damage. They do not defend against CRITs, Force, Tech, internal or elemental damage. So a Tank, in tank gear (shield chance and absorb,) specced in tanking to improve shield chance and absorb really does nothing for PvP as Players use force and tech abilities a lot!

 

Tanks are best against melee classes because they can block some of the damage. However, most classes are geared to crit often thus a shield will not mitigate the damage.

 

Tank gear has shield chance and absorb ratings which makes them near useless in PvP. However, it is the Mods and Enhancements that hold these stats not the Armorings. Looking at the boosts from "tank" armoring a 4 piece set gives you a +5% damage while you guard which can still be very benificial to your team!

 

Hybridding yourself will allow you to still be effective as a tank while dealing decent damage. Denfense and Endurance are the key stats for the "Tank" in PvP. Defense for yourself and Endurance to withstand damage taken from guard.

 

GUARD: How guard works is that you take 50% of the damage taken from hits againstthe person you are guarding. The person being guarded uses their damage mitigation before the damage is taken and split between the two of you. So if the person being attacked takes a hit that deals 2138 damage and their armor mitigates 138 of the damage, then 2000 damage is split 50/50 between you both, i.e. 1000 each. For this reason it is possible for the tank to be killed before the guarded if the guarded is recieving healing and not the tank. (Often the case when guarding a healer who self heals when tanks don't peel.)

 

So a "True Tank" in "Tank Gear" is not nearly as desirable as a hybrid tank in mdoified tank gear or DPS gear.

[PlagaNerezza]

Everywhere I look people are saying that pvp tank gear is not acceptable in pvp...that a full tank should instead be wearing pvp dps gear. As a matter of fact further still people say that a full tank shouldnt even be a full tank, they should be a hybrid tank/dps. That a full tank in pvp tank gear is actually a hindrance to the team, not a help. Is this true?

 

If so how can the devs make PvP tank gearb for a tank actually preferable over the dps set? Obviousely the devs want tanks to wear tank gear or it wouldnt exist, but players say it sucks....so just how exactly should they fix it?

 

How should the devs make it more preferable for a tank to ACTUALLY fill up his tank tree with skill points 31 instead of going sometype of hybrid spec for PvP??

 

Why cant a tank just be a tank wearing the gear that was made for him, and what needs to be changed?

 

Read this. It explains everything and should be tagged at the top of the PVP forum as it explains it clearly with examples and should help you to understand the games mechanics.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=155034

 

I agree with your stance on tanks. Tanks should be tanks. Shields and mitigation should affect all dmg being done including DoT based attacks. I hate that people want to make everything a DoT. Its none sense since its just going to reduce the dmg over time like it would an attack based on immediate damage. So a 3k dot mitigated 25% would tick for a total of 2250 damage.

 

Tanks should be able to hold and control an area and taunt people off the healer.

 

However, these wazones are to small for tanks to get pvp defenses firing correctly and the dps balance isn't right and would need all sorts of tuning.

 

What bothers me more is tanking abilities able to be hybrid specc'd or dps being hybrid specc'd into tank trees.

 

So you go Marauder and get 99% mitigation in a fight against all dmg in a pure dps class?

 

Or my tanksin with dps. Or powertech.

 

Mitigation of dmg to extremes belongs either very high up a tanking tree in the hybrid AC's or removed if tanking or healing isn't a role.

 

Obviously I don't think the bubble is an issue for healers to be able to mitigate damage.

 

My point is that it is the way it is. You at this stage need to understand bioware doesn't get how tanks work in there system so just take advantage of it and learn.

 

PVP

Tanks wear dps

DPS wear DPS

Defensive stats and accuracy = useless

Shields = useless

 

Crit, pwr, surge, endurance, main stat

 

Figure out the secondary stat balance and order of priority how you like. There is still debate on that.

 

I like tanksin, marauder, powertech, healer, operative, sniper

 

I won't roll a marauder as I think its complete garbage how they set it up and love killing that OP garbage. Most marauders stink.

 

Pick a class/ac with tons of cc. Its all about CC burn, cc burn. You basically shutdown the off healers and kill the healers.

 

If you have the ability to separate the guard on the healer do it and root him while you burn his guarded target.

 

You need to stay next to the healer guard taunt, dps the guys on your healer while using your cc to give your healer time between his resolve bars when he is going to be stunned, rooted, kb'd, etc.

 

Tanks jobs are simple keep the healer alive and shutdown the dps that is about to unleash the chain.

 

I love using CC right as the leap. Ignore. Or the minute that stupid defense against all attacks is up. CC. They typically follow those up with their biggest hitters.

[Altheran]

I agree with your stance on tanks. Tanks should be tanks. Shields and mitigation should affect all dmg being done including DoT based attacks. I hate that people want to make everything a DoT. Its none sense since its just going to reduce the dmg over time like it would an attack based on immediate damage. So a 3k dot mitigated 25% would tick for a total of 2250 damage.

 

I believe that tanks should have their stats effective on all attacks, but I believe that DoTs should bypass the shield.

 

First reason : Tanks must high defensive abilities, but also have a flaw in their defenses. They must have a flaw because their natural nemesis is the healer, their DPS cannot match they HPS allowing the healer to slowly kill the tank in 1vs1... but in group fight, the healer don't attack, the only ones who attack the tank are damage dealers on who tanks have the high ground, and the healing provided by a teammate can exponantially increase their survival. So basically the tanks have no flaw (he can have little flaw but nothing problematic) in group fight. So this why they must have an additional flaw that can be exploited by people, but it mustn't be too easy. DoTs is a good option because the damage is sustained and not brutal so the healer can manage to heal through it even if the tank is weak against it, and still is not so easy to exploit. To be fully effecive against a tank and exploit all of their flaws, you must : use Tech/Force and have enough accuracy to overcome Defense rate, do a DoT that is elemental/internal.

 

Second reason : Shield are like a barrier that blocks incoming attacks. DoTs are not incoming attacks, they are attacks that have already landed. At most a shield can stop or partially absorb the impact of something coming to the wielder, but for a bleeding, a poisoning, a mental weakening, the shield isn't supposed to be effective at all.

[Derian]

Shields need to work against all types of damage. That's really all it needs. Tanks also need something to defend against internal/elemental.

[cool-dude]

Everywhere I look people are saying that pvp tank gear is not acceptable in pvp...that a full tank should instead be wearing pvp dps gear. As a matter of fact further still people say that a full tank shouldnt even be a full tank, they should be a hybrid tank/dps. That a full tank in pvp tank gear is actually a hindrance to the team, not a help. Is this true?

 

Shield and Defense is useless against tech/force attacks, and most attacks are tech/force attacks. In pve, most of the damage you receive from an npc is weapon damage, which defense and shield protect against. In regards to using dps gear, that is true, because you simply get more use out doing damage. However, mitigation in pvp is gold, so as a tank in pvp, you'll be relying on your armor and damage reduction abilities/skills that protect you against all incoming damage types.

[Altheran]

Shields need to work against all types of damage. That's really all it needs. Tanks also need something to defend against internal/elemental.

 

I think that since we have armor, it should remain a weak point for tanks. If tanks can defend these damage types, then the whole concept of damage types becomes useless.

 

But also think that everybody should have a slight boost on the internal/elemental damage reduction, like a basis of 10-15% of damage reduction. I think that a damage type that is designed to be preferential against heavy armors and tanks, should not be preferential against light armor as well.

With the current state, when fighting a light armor, the damage reduction is ~20% for kinetic and energetic and 10% for internal/elemental (with buff). I think that the internal/elemental damage reduction should be has high as light armor can provide for kinetic/energetic if not even more (maybe as high as medium armor). That's why I think everybody should get a basis of 10 or 15%, it will bring the total damage reduction when buffed up to 20 or 25%.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Altheran

[Tankqull]

I think that since we have armor, it should remain a weak point for tanks. If tanks can defend these damage types, then the whole concept of damage types becomes useless.

just implement modifikations that give instead of defense/shieldrating/absorb + armor absorbrating wich only works when used in one of the 3 tank-stances wich aswell dimnishes the dmg of elemental/internal dmg.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Tankqull

[Altheran]

just implement modifikations that give instead of defense/shieldrating/absorb + armor absorbrating wich only works when used in one of the 3 tank-stances wich aswell dimnishes the dmg of elemental/internal dmg.

 

Why not. But I think it will go out of control because since all tanks have not the same damage reduction, it will not have the same impact on gameplay.

If I get a 5% damage reduction with your stat, as a Shadow with ~40% dmg reduction, I will get rid of 5% of the 60% remaing damage. It means I get rid of 1/12 of the usual incoming damage.

But now, if I play a PT with ~60% dmg reduction, I will get rid of 5% of the 40% remaining dmg which means 1/8 of usual incoming damage.

As a result, the more mitigation you have to begin with, the stronger you'll get with this stat, and so the stat itself is not fair between tank classes.

[Tankqull]

As a result, the more mitigation you have to begin with, the stronger you'll get with this stat, and so the stat itself is not fair between tank classes.

not if it is just an additve instead of multiplicative value.

[Himeji_Endless]

Watch this Watchman video of a real guardian tank doing what a tank should do and the full write up below ... opened my eyes and I'm glad that there is a true workable role for tanks in pvp. I do feel that this may not work well in PUGs, but if you can run in a premade w/ guildies, this is def something to aspire to!

 

 

http://watchmen.activeboard.com/t50144827/a-whole-guide-for-a-whole-guardian/

(super helpful write up)

[Tankqull]

Watch this Watchman video of a real guardian tank doing what a tank should do and the full write up below ... opened my eyes and I'm glad that there is a true workable role for tanks in pvp. I do feel that this may not work well in PUGs, but if you can run in a premade w/ guildies, this is def something to aspire to!

 

 

http://watchmen.activeboard.com/t50144827/a-whole-guide-for-a-whole-guardian/

(super helpful write up)

but stacking HP while relying on CD-def abilities(+xx%hp|+xx% flat dmg reduce) to be able to "tank" is not a functional def stat concept ...

[kjkdollarbanny]

Everywhere I look people are saying that pvp tank gear is not acceptable in pvp...that a full tank should instead be wearing pvp dps gear. As a matter of fact further still people say that a full tank shouldnt even be a full tank, they should be a hybrid tank/dps. That a full tank in pvp tank gear is actually a hindrance to the team, not a help. Is this true?

 

If so how can the devs make PvP tank gearb for a tank actually preferable over the dps set? Obviousely the devs want tanks to wear tank gear or it wouldnt exist, but players say it sucks....so just how exactly should they fix it?

 

How should the devs make it more preferable for a tank to ACTUALLY fill up his tank tree with skill points 31 instead of going sometype of hybrid spec for PvP??

 

Why cant a tank just be a tank wearing the gear that was made for him, and what needs to be changed?

 

tank stats and moar HP.

[Blasphemerr]

Juggernaught-tank rage generation is so terrible there isn't much reason to care about dps gear aside from the 2 piece vindicator set bonus. Amazing dps stats or not ... you're still only capable of generating 2 rage every 5 seconds plus 1 rage every GCD. Assassins & Powertechs don't have this problem. Edited August 13, 2012 by Blasphemerr

[Tankqull]

Juggernaught-tank rage generation is so terrible there isn't much reason to care about dps gear aside from the 2 piece vindicator set bonus. Amazing dps stats or not ... you're still only capable of generating 2 rage every 5 seconds plus 1 rage every GCD. Assassins & Powertechs don't have this problem.

 

***.... go and play an assasin on your own. you will recognize that you have nothing to increase your generation of ~10%/sec of your resource pool while you have to spend 25-50% of it per action... you will love the jugger system when you have played an assasin.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Tankqull

[Blasphemerr]

***.... go and play an assasin on your own. you will recognize that you have nothing to increase your generation of ~10%/sec of your resource pool while you have to spend 25-50% of it per action... you will love the jugger system when you have played an assasin.

 

 

What? When did I suggest that tank assassins and powertechs could increase their energy regeneration? That's right, I didn't. We're talking about tanks, fool. Darkness assassins & shieldtech powertechs do not have their regeneration, or generation for that matter halved when they throw on the tank form as immortal juggs do. Now if you were following along ... that is why I believe juggernauts are better in tank gear, even if your dps stats are amazing ... the attacks cost 4 rage and in two GCDs you only generate 3....and the bulk of that generation is on a 5 second cooldown. In 5 seconds a tanksin generates 40 force enough for a shock (39 force) or force lighting (30 force) while the juggernaut in the same 5 seconds generates half of one attack.

 

I don't even need to get into the benefits of passive regeneration vs. building systems, I think we all know which one is better for pvp.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Blasphemerr

[Siorac]

Uselessness of tank stats have been exaggerated on these boards, imho. Some of the most fearsome, powerful attacks are white damage - Master Strike/Ravage, HIB/Rail Shot, Aimed Shot/Ambush to name the most obvious examples. These are shieldable, can be dodged - that's kinda useful.

 

And yeah, a Guardian tank in DPS gear will still do relatively poor damage if in Soresu form - and if it's not in that, it's not a tank at all. Not really worth it imho, you can just stack Power with augments and maybe swap Guardian armorings for Might armorings for more Strength.

 

The only "tank" that really benefits from DPS gear is the Shadow/Assassin hybrid. Those can be insane though.