Attention all SW:TOR PVP'ers

[Brool]

Gear makes it take longer for me to ramp up my alts and guild-mates and friends to compete and it serves as a barrier to entry. People focus on gear instead of focusing on strategy, so it is immediately a wasteful distraction that precludes people from getting better.

 

All in all it makes for a worse experience (in PVP). PVE is a different story, I can gear out an alt in *ONE NIGHT* by getting him carried through SM EC and EV/KP HM.

 

2 days 11k expertise to gear an alt out at 50. Same can be done in PvP if you know what you are doing.

[SinnedWill]

Logging onto the PvP forum this morning and again I see multiple threads of the same re-hashed complaints about gear. How could it possibly be fair that when someone does a WZ for the first time that people who have been PvP'ing for months and investing time/effort have an advantage over them?

 

I checked the Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions forum and I didn't see any of us clogging up their forums over and over with comparable complaints about PvE gear. I think, nay, I demand that we start posting multiple threads per day in their forum like this:

 

I'm not complaining but this game totally sucks moose @ss in the way that it forces you to mindlessly grind PvE gear in order even stand a chance of being competitive in HM/NM Operations. I dinged 50 and 3.28 seconds later I queued for an Operation in my greens, 2 blues and my awesome orange piece which I don't care if it has strength on it, I RP my Operative as being uncommonly strong.

 

The Operation starts and even on the TRASH mobs I can't keep the 3 people I'm assigned to heal alive. The other two healers in full Rakata gear tell me to just go sit in the corner and they start healing their guys plus mine...???...why should they be able to do more heals than me just because they have better gear? What dev seriously thought this was a good idea.

 

We get to the first boss and stupid Bio-fail has a mechanic where everyone takes damage and I keep dying because everyone else is stacking more endurance than I am and I have 10k less HP than everyone else. lolz . How is that supposed to be fun? Why should I die faster than anyone else, its like a gear-enforced caste system. I should immediately be able to jump into end-game content without any prior effort and be equal to everyone else. Isn't that what I pay my $15 for?

 

When I started telling the Op group how f4cked up this all was, the leader said that I should start by maybe running some BT HM's and gear up. I told him he was just another fanboi making excuses for why this game sucks. Someone then said I was a retard and I told him that technically that was not true...

 

+10 Points for the literary satire you just wrote. I commend you on your creativity.

 

Not only is this one of the most warranted threads I've seen in a while, you used what I feel to be the ideal metaphores relative to the issues many of the gear-grind QQ'ers complain about.

 

Seriously, folks, it only takes ~4 days (tops) for a casual player to go from being a fresh 50 to full battlemaster (assuming you had 2000 warzone comms saved up) - and if you also had 3500 RWZ comms, you would likely have 2-3 pieces of WH gear (or you could convert those back to WZ comms and be in full battlemaster within a day).

Sure, the grind from BM -> WH gear can be arduous, but the only advantages WH gear tends to bring a player over BM gear isn't HUGE, if anything, I'd say it's only really noticable in 1v1's (assuming both players are DPS classes); and in all honesty, a good player in BM gear > bad player (or lazy) in WH gear in that situation. If you're DPS, the most significant improvements come from relics (which are EASY to obtain), weapon, and off-hand (or off-hand weapon) - if you have augmented BM gear, you're very close to being on par with fully augmented WH geared players (augments make a more noticable difference than the WH gear itself does, IMO).

[dcgregorya]

People just like to cry if they cant be given stuff without putting the time in or doing the work. Deny it all you want, but its simple fact about todays generation of mmo gamers.

 

No one whined like this in the golden days of MMO play.

 

People whined all the time. People whined in the MUDs I played in 1992. In an actual *COMPETITIVE* game, like GW, Starcraft, Street Fighter, etc. that is played tournament style the balance is tightly maintained and there are no "I was here first" privileges or advantages. Either the game can stand on its own as a PVP game or it can't and the devs here have made it obvious that it can't by implementing the gear grind and refusing to comment on or tighten balance in 2 months.

[dcgregorya]

2 days 11k expertise to gear an alt out at 50. Same can be done in PvP if you know what you are doing.

 

You can get augmented warhero in two days? I'm impressed at your manipulation of the time space continuum. Battlemaster is within 5-10% of Warhero (depending on class/spec) but that's still a 5-10% "I was here first gimme a cookie" advantage.

Edited August 7, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Brool]

You can get augmented warhero in two days? I'm impressed at your manipulation of the time space continuum. Battlemaster is within 5-10% of Warhero (depending on class/spec) but that's still a 5-10% "I was here first gimme a cookie" advantage.

 

I never said augmented WH. I said 11k expertise in 2 days after capping a toon. Im impressed by you're reading comprehension.

 

and 11k expertise is more than enough to compete with anyone in non ranked warzones.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Brool

[Helistin]

I never said augmented WH. I said 11k expertise in 2 days after capping a toon. Im impressed by you're reading comprehension.

 

and 11k expertise is more than enough to compete with anyone in non ranked warzones.

 

Yeah, i think i would do even better in warzones if i had 11k expertise

[Aluvi]

+10 Points for the literary satire you just wrote. I commend you on your creativity.

 

Not only is this one of the most warranted threads I've seen in a while, you used what I feel to be the ideal metaphores relative to the issues many of the gear-grind QQ'ers complain about.

 

Seriously, folks, it only takes ~4 days (tops) for a casual player to go from being a fresh 50 to full battlemaster (assuming you had 2000 warzone comms saved up) - and if you also had 3500 RWZ comms, you would likely have 2-3 pieces of WH gear (or you could convert those back to WZ comms and be in full battlemaster within a day).

Sure, the grind from BM -> WH gear can be arduous, but the only advantages WH gear tends to bring a player over BM gear isn't HUGE, if anything, I'd say it's only really noticable in 1v1's (assuming both players are DPS classes); and in all honesty, a good player in BM gear > bad player (or lazy) in WH gear in that situation. If you're DPS, the most significant improvements come from relics (which are EASY to obtain), weapon, and off-hand (or off-hand weapon) - if you have augmented BM gear, you're very close to being on par with fully augmented WH geared players (augments make a more noticable difference than the WH gear itself does, IMO).

 

Quoted for truth. Every single "QQ I NEED WAR HERO GEARZ NOW AND I SHOUDNT HAS TO WORK FOR IT LIKE OTHERS DID CUZ I AM GOOD INSTANT GRATIFICATION PLZZZZZ!!!!!" is a new player that probably got stomped, PRIMARILY because the other player was much better, OR it was a full premade of players that have been playing together for 3-4 months.

 

Bioware has done a good job with PvP progression. It's easy to get into end game pvp, within 1 week you can be in BM gear and maybe a piece of WH if you saved up for it. Seriously, when they changed BM gear to be obtainable by regular wz comms, like every terrible noob from here to china had full BM gear within DAYS, and all that time that i had spent working for BM gear seemed wasted, and now, those same noobs have the audacity to complain that the pvp gear grind is TOO HARD? Go back to story modes casual kids. Or play GW2, or a first person shooter. Those both off instant gratification pvp. Theyalso get supremely boring after about a week of play, or less.

[TheronFett]

Shame on the OP for tossing logic to the PvP kids, who drown logic in their tears. Give them ALL free War Hero gear, I say. It won't matter. Give them whatever they think they need to "level the playing field" so that PvP can be the "skill-based" game they want. It still won't matter.

 

No matter what BioWare gives them, it will never be enough. BioWare can't patch BAD PLAYERS.

[Brool]

Yeah, i think i would do even better in warzones if i had 11k expertise

 

I apologize on the typo. I've had a tooth pulled yesterday and still on pretty good painkillers. 1100. I do feel silly after that typo several times. Thanks for bolding it for me tho, I didnt even realize it till i saw it in bold. oh well.

 

Regardless of the fact of my silly typo's in those posts, fact of the matter remains 2 days after 50 he was out of recruit gear and competing with anyone in the warzone.

[Kawiki]

You can get augmented warhero in two days? I'm impressed at your manipulation of the time space continuum. Battlemaster is within 5-10% of Warhero (depending on class/spec) but that's still a 5-10% "I was here first gimme a cookie" advantage.

 

Most people that are in full augmented War Hero are just better then you and you will get beat regardless of gear. Before going farther I am going to point out the most part. In other words they are going to beat you by more then 5-10%.

 

Why are they better then you? Because they have put in the 100's of WZs that it requires to get their gear. They know their class. People who want gear handed to them will never be a good player because you just are not willing to put in the time. It really is that simple.

 

It's simple fact that the longer you do something the better you become at it.

 

If you prepare for 50 you can be very competitive right out of the gate. However, The only way you will truly become a top player is putting in the time.

[oleost]

I don't know what's so difficult about understanding the difference between PvE and PvP gear progression. In PvE, you do your dailies, get your 126 rating mods/armorings, and then start doing hard modes and maybe story mode ops. It goes from there. It's a fair, clearly defined progression, with content that is challenging but doable.

 

Then there's PvP. You reach 50, get a shiny set of crappy blue gear (maybe some BM and 1 WH if you planned ahead), and get tossed into a match potentially against people in top tier. It's totally different, potentially totally unfair, and folks are right to complain.

 

Making a steady pve gear progression is fun. Getting stomped on your way to Battlemaster is not fun. Why is there confusion about this?

 

Totally agree.

The pvp from 10-49 is more balanced than 50 PVP. I enjoy playing pvp before 50 and hate it when I reach 50..

 

If you look at other multiplayer games(Like Battlefield 3) it wouldn't be fun if the weapon the veterans have would make you die in 99% off all encouters. YES they have better weapon, but not THAT much better.

 

Games where playing against other players should MAINLY be skilled based and not gear based. Not everyone want/can grind gear

Edited August 7, 2012 by oleost

[iamef]

I don't understand the QQ about the grind or the focus on gear as being the determining factor for warzone success. Assuming you get recruit gear (which is free!), the key factor is coordinated group action! Don't you realize that most of the time you are getting crushed it is because you are fighitng a coordinated pre-made group (probably on vent), or at least a PuG that made a quick plan at the start, and helps each other through the fight? STOP CRYING!!

 

Before you whine about gear in lvl 50 warzones, do you:

 

• Let people know your are not well geared and are going to need help? (i.e. the team shouldn't leave you alone to defend a node)
  
• Coordinate how your team splits up in Novare Coast, Civil War, and Voidstar?
  
• Identify (so you can protect) your own teams healers?
  
• Remind people to, and then activly mark enemy healers?
  
• Kill the afore mentioned marked healers first (in most cases)?
  
• Call inc?
  
• Make sure you're not leaving someone alone on a node (or leaving the node undefended) when you run off to reinforce another?
  
• Pop your shield and/or warzone adrenal at the opening of the match, to counter other players who are doing the same, or using thier strongest opening attacks on you to try and clear the node to cap?
  
• Spend at least a little time doing dailies and buying Exotech Stims??
  

 

If you are doing all those things you should be able to identify people (most llikely very well geared people) who are willing to invite you to pre-made groups, and you will stack up wins, commendations and BM gear pretty fast.

 

If, on the other hand, you:

 

 

• Are silent in warzones
  
• Assume someone else will cap the node after clearing, while you either position to defend or run off to capture/defend another node, without even a 1 second glance back to make sure it is actually happening?
  
• Run off to be 'the hero' and capture a defended node, leaving your team shorthanded and getting killed in 4 seconds by not just the Powertech you saw, but the stealthed Operative as well
  
• Wait until you are dead or in the respawn area to call inc, then complain the reason you didn't was becasue you were stun-locked, even though your own fingers and chat window were, of course, unaffected by said stun.
  
• Play a Tank class but never guard your healer (or anyone else for that matter)
  
• Play a DPS and focus fire a Tank, who at the same time is getting healed by the same healer you ignore.
  

 

then you will be back hear QQing in no time at all about how you got stomped again!

 

-----

[UGLYMRJ]

If you have been playing for months, then skill alone should allow you to beat noobs. You don't need gear to carry you on.

 

PvE skill and PvP skill are 2 very different things... they are also 2 very different "games"... hence... 2 different gear grinds.

 

Personally I would not want a bunch of random PvE'ers coming into WZ's with no clue on how things work in PvP. Basically I feel like PvE'ers are mad because they want to do a handful of WZ's a week and be as competitive as those of us who are doing 10-20 WZ's a night.

 

First: NO!

 

Second: The PvP gear grind basically forces them to have some knowledge and skill in PvP. PvP gear in a way makes them play a decent amount of PvP to be competitive. NO ONE is going enjoy PvP'ing for very long in recruit gear. This is how the game separates PvP from PvE players the best it can.

Disclaimer Notice: This is just the designed effort of the separate gear grinds. In no way does it mean that you won't have players joining WZ's in Tionese gear on a regular basis. This is called 'expertise denial'. But this is how it is designed and it keeps those numbers lower than what they would be.

 

Third: and again... they are very different. Just because you can facetank EV HM, does not mean you know a damn thing about PvP. PvP gear grind will promote you either playing more PvP or getting out of it all together. Either way.... THIS is good for those of us who enjoy a lot of PvP. We do not want you in here with full columi, yelling at the tanks to pull aggro. It's bad enough already.... we do not need more bad pugs in our games.

 

Invest time and withdraw the rewards.

[Roiz]

Shame on the OP for tossing logic to the PvP kids, who drown logic in their tears. Give them ALL free War Hero gear, I say. It won't matter. Give them whatever they think they need to "level the playing field" so that PvP can be the "skill-based" game they want. It still won't matter.

 

No matter what BioWare gives them, it will never be enough. BioWare can't patch BAD PLAYERS.

 

Yes they can. Give a bad player an OP class and gear advantage and job is done.

[Kawiki]

PvE skill and PvP skill are 2 very different things... they are also 2 very different "games"... hence... 2 different gear grinds.

 

Personally I would not want a bunch of random PvE'ers coming into WZ's with no clue on how things work in PvP. Basically I feel like PvE'ers are mad because they want to do a handful of WZ's a week and be as competitive as those of us who are doing 10-20 WZ's a night.

 

First: NO!

 

Second: The PvP gear grind basically forces them to have some knowledge and skill in PvP. PvP gear in a way makes them play a decent amount of PvP to be competitive. NO ONE is going enjoy PvP'ing for very long in recruit gear. This is how the game separates PvP from PvE players the best it can.

Disclaimer Notice: This is just the designed effort of the separate gear grinds. In no way does it mean that you won't have players joining WZ's in Tionese gear on a regular basis. This is called 'expertise denial'. But this is how it is designed and it keeps those numbers lower than what they would be.

 

Third: and again... they are very different. Just because you can facetank EV HM, does not mean you know a damn thing about PvP. PvP gear grind will promote you either playing more PvP or getting out of it all together. Either way.... THIS is good for those of us who enjoy a lot of PvP. We do not want you in here with full columi, yelling at the tanks to pull aggro. It's bad enough already.... we do not need more bad pugs in our games.

 

Invest time and withdraw the rewards.

 

The only thing I will say about PvEers is that they generally are very good at teamwork - they are used to communication and working together to accomplish something.

 

That said - nerf Maras

[TheronFett]

Yes they can. Give a bad player an OP class and gear advantage and job is done.

 

False logic.

 

FOTM re-rollers are a case study. Most baddies just whine, but some of them go with whatever the perceived "alpha class" is during any given development cycle. They're still just bad players.

[UGLYMRJ]

The only thing I will say about PvEers is that they generally are very good at teamwork - they are used to communication and working together to accomplish something.

 

That said - nerf Maras

 

LMAO! Before I scrolled down I knew that would be in there somewhere. I actually LOL'd. Well done sir.

 

As far as your comment though... that's a yes and no. Organized yes but in a very different way. And PvP is much more fast paced than PvE. PvE is about thought out strategy and PvP is also about a planned strategy but one that comes with adjustments and reactions based on the other teams moves. There's no time to think, reacting on the spot with a good plan can make or break the game. Take too long and it can go downhill very fast.

 

In PvE you have time to stop and stare at your next boss fight.. make a sammich and have a smoke. And like I said... you have to adjust. PvE bosses are the same... every time you fight them you go in with the same plan. If you turn it up a difficulty setting... same plan but watch out for the blinking red light on you and there's an extra AOE. But it's the same damn thing. PvP does not have this type of predictability.

 

Personally, I just like the gear grind because when I pug.... I have enough bad players on my team as is. I don't need more people with zero expertise on my team having 1v1 battles no where near an objective. I'd like to think that a separate gear grind causes casual PvE'ers to be less likely to queue up.

[Roiz]

False logic.

 

FOTM re-rollers are a case study. Most baddies just whine, but some of them go with whatever the perceived "alpha class" is during any given development cycle. They're still just bad players.

 

Class balance changes after each patch, if you have a time to reroll the new FOTM after patch and gear it you can get big advantage in PvP. It is ok if you have a lot of time no job , no school.

But if you play occasionally and like to play different classes have alts you will have always gear disadvantage.

 

I like the idea OF GW 2 where you can create instantly a PvP character and got max level all abilities and gear does not affect battlegrounds at all. You want play another char , just create a new one in 5 minutes and join battleground with your friends. This is very fun and team coordination matters. If you enjoy grinding gear and levels just to play warzones on competitive level, good luck:)

Edited August 7, 2012 by Roiz

[Pathlight-]

PVP in this game is a tired reuse of a dying formula. Gear Vs gear is an excuse not to develop actually fun and engaging mechanics that would keep players interested beyond the grind. It is also an excuse for the no-lifers who would like to believe that their skill at pvp is directly correlated to the time they wasted getting their augmented full WH.*

 

I'm an avid pvper in general but due to a demanding work schedule I play at most 4-5 hours a week. However, when I play a class, I take the time to learn about the mechanics/rotations... I have played Sentinel, Gunsliger, sorcerer, commando and now shadow. I consistently end up in the top 2 of the scoreboards in 10-49 games. Not because I'm awesome or god's gift to pvp but because I make it a point to learn from more experienced players (mostly on the forums) about my class and the overall strategy of each warzones. All in all I have been having fun in pvp and have gotten 2 chars to 50. But guess what ? I let them rot and rerolled almost immediately after. Because entering battle with recruit gear and going against a full WH Premade is the antithesis of fun and what pvp should be about.*

 

Real pvpers like to test their skill vs that of other players. Bad pvpers with an epeen problem grind up gear and think that makes them good. What most amuses me is those that try to deride people asking for a smaller gear role in wz as bads. If the augmented WH were any good they would welcme the challenge of facing more geared opponents. From what I have played of GW2, most serious pvpers will pick this up and leave the grindfest that is TOR. In GW2, gear makes no difference at all. What decides the outcome of a game is player skill and more specifically teamwork. If you win you know you achieved something great as a team. If you lose, you can't blame gear.*

 

All in all, I'm happy that GW2 and PS2 are on the horizon as swtor pvp is antiquated and subpar.*

[UGLYMRJ]

PVP in this game is a tired reuse of a dying formula. Gear Vs gear is an excuse not to develop actually fun and engaging mechanics that would keep players interested beyond the grind. It is also an excuse for the no-lifers who would like to believe that their skill at pvp is directly correlated to the time they wasted getting their augmented full WH.*

 

I'm an avid pvper in general but due to a demanding work schedule I play at most 4-5 hours a week. However, when I play a class, I take the time to learn about the mechanics/rotations... I have played Sentinel, Gunsliger, sorcerer, commando and now shadow. I consistently end up in the top 2 of the scoreboards in 10-49 games. Not because I'm awesome or god's gift to pvp but because I make it a point to learn from more experienced players (mostly on the forums) about my class and the overall strategy of each warzones. All in all I have been having fun in pvp and have gotten 2 chars to 50. But guess what ? I let them rot and rerolled almost immediately after. Because entering battle with recruit gear and going against a full WH Premade is the antithesis of fun and what pvp should be about.*

 

Real pvpers like to test their skill vs that of other players. Bad pvpers with an epeen problem grind up gear and think that makes them good. What most amuses me is those that try to deride people asking for a smaller gear role in wz as bads. If the augmented WH were any good they would welcme the challenge of facing more geared opponents. From what I have played of GW2, most serious pvpers will pick this up and leave the grindfest that is TOR. In GW2, gear makes no difference at all. What decides the outcome of a game is player skill and more specifically teamwork. If you win you know you achieved something great as a team. If you lose, you can't blame gear.*

 

All in all, I'm happy that GW2 and PS2 are on the horizon as swtor pvp is antiquated and subpar.*

 

Just my opinions but... it's obviously preference. It seems crazy to me that you would rather play a game where gear makes no difference. But I see your point. I like the idea of having rewards for time played. I earned that slight advantage over some other players and some players have earned a greater advantage over me. Time invested and rewards.

 

Also... I don't think we're gonna see many successful MMO's break away from the cookie cutter shape that is WoW. It attracted SO MANY damn people that developers look at it as a standard. One day we'll get a game breaking MMO but it doesn't seem to be coming any time soon.

 

And the real reason I responded....

 

PLANETSIDE2!!!!!

 

Notice the colors... NC 4 LIFE!!!

[Shaabyy]

I think the arguement is not really much of an arguement. The feelings of frustration are understandable but generally are also unavoidable.

 

There as of now, is no way to prevent augmented WH geared players from entering a regular unranked WZ.

 

You can not force someone to participate in ranked.

 

There are not brackets or teirs in unranked pvp.

 

It does STINK getting blasted to pieces when you are undergeared, but this is really just the nature of the modern day WoW- Clone MMO.

 

The only thing I can reall advise or say in regards to the matter is that, during the time that you are undergeared the best thing anyone can do is learn SOLID tactics.

 

Learn to defend a node properly, not rush in and fight 3 guys and die in 10 secs and lose the node. Learn to harass and use line of sight. Learn positioning in Huttball and learn the counters to abilties and classes.

 

You WILL NOT be an overwhelming success in recruit gear. But you can learn valuable tools on your way to better gear that can make your PVP experience and contribution better.

[Ybini]

They tried to fix this by giving out recruit gear. It would be sort of like giving away tionese to PVE to shut them up about gear disparity, but no one complains so much about it in PVE. Gear does matter, up side is even if you lose, you can still work your way to full war hero, it'll just take a lot longer. The grind is somewhere between 10-17 weeks on all unranked solo queueing if you turn over every unrated com to rated, or 126 days running 6 daily warzones or 755 wzs you can lose over and over.

[Darth_Philar]

There are 3 playstyles available in any MMORPG:

 

1. PvE - Player Versus Environment: Your character fights AI controlled mobs, bosses, or other environmental factors. Focus is on developing the character and the player's impact is minimized.

2. PvP - Player Versus Player: The player's skills and knowledge are pitted against the skills and knowledge of other players. Character features such as stats, gear, class, etc. are ABSENT.

3. CvC - Character Versus Character: Your character fights characters controlled by other players. It is a mixture of PvE and PvP but is neither one.

 

SWTOR has 1 and 3. There is no PvP in this game. True PvPers get their PvP from different games.

[Roiz]

Bad pvpers with an epeen problem grind up gear and think that makes them good. What most amuses me is those that try to deride people asking for a smaller gear role in wz as bads.

 

Yes you hit the right point. It is really good what one company did an MMo without grind there you can enjoy PvP on competitive basis