Objective of WZ's

[datav]

At first I didn't like any of the WZ maps because i just wanted to blow stuff up. But now that I have gotten back into the game, and i'm pvp'ing a whole bunch (to get both my normal and ranked comms stacked by 50) i've taken a liking to the strategic gameplay each offers . If all you do is PVP like that (and im sure a lot of people do) you start to notice trends in victories and defeats.

Here is my problem:

(I have not really played as an Imp. but its gotta go both ways.)

MOST people think that "doing good" in a WZ means doing the most DMG in the round....I even had one guy say "let's see how many of you can't break the 100k dmg mark." and it's exactly people like that, that are ruining PVP for the rest of us. This is not a FPS, the objectives are not to kill, nor to get a certain amount of DMG. yes, you DO get medals for dmg, BUT it should come while completeing objectives not taking on random rights in the middle of the map.

Each WZ requires different tactics for different classes( yes, you actually have to think) and if employed properly the WZ is made easier.

I'm not going to sit here and write what i've learned from each WZ, just try and notice why you win and why you lose. (beside the "my team is f****** retarded" excuse)

But my rambling leads to this.. since so many people think this is about DMG, at the end of the WZ when MVP votes should go to the MVP, it's always to the one who did most DMG(every blue moon he/she doesn't get even 1 vote). Unless you are in a group and all vote for each other, I think it should be an unwritten (not anymore i guess) rule that votes should go for the one with MOST OBJECTIVE POINTS and the BEST HEALER(they dont get enough credit!!!). it is severely frustrating when you get the highest objective points in your group (meaning you did what the WZ requires) and you dont even get one point, but then the guy with most DMG and least objective points gets 3 votes. I also understand it's just 1, 2 or 3 extra comms, but if you are repeatedly top 3 in objective points then it could really start to add up.

if anybody out there feels the same...

[Xairon]

From that block I've deciphered that you think people play WZ's too much like Team Deathmatch, and not enough Objectively, and that is skewing peoples focus to thinking DMG is more important than objective points or a players Role. And yes you are correct. So find yourself a good guild and stop pugging!

 

To the "Lets see how many people can't break 100k" Srsly, if you're a DPS and you can't break 100k in any pvp game, you're doing it wrong. Even when you're 25ish in the Sub 50 bracket you should be doing at least 100k as a DPSer. So yeah, that's kinda a good yardstick of under performance.

[Morrolan]

I always give mvp votes to the player who has the highest objective points, or to the healer if they've done a really good job. Never to the highest dmg dealer.

[datav]

From that block I've deciphered that you think people play WZ's too much like Team Deathmatch, and not enough Objectively, and that is skewing peoples focus to thinking DMG is more important than objective points or a players Role. And yes you are correct. So find yourself a good guild and stop pugging!

 

To the "Lets see how many people can't break 100k" Srsly, if you're a DPS and you can't break 100k in any pvp game, you're doing it wrong. Even when you're 25ish in the Sub 50 bracket you should be doing at least 100k as a DPSer. So yeah, that's kinda a good yardstick of under performance.

When everyone else in the guild is playing their 50's theres not much I can do. and i don't "think" people play these as a Team Deathmatch, i've seen them do it, heard them say it. They are OBJECTIVE BASED maps not "go blow sh** up" maps.

And it's not about being able to break the 100k mark(because it really aint hard for DPS if you just go out and fight sh**), but to imply that it's got to be done to succeed? or that you're not good if you dont do it that round? uhhhhh.....falsity.

[datav]

I always give mvp votes to the player who has the highest objective points, or to the healer if they've done a really good job. Never to the highest dmg dealer.

 

WAY TOO FEW people like you.

I salute you.

[heechJunzi]

Some games I spend all 15 minutes chasing the healer as a sentinel, and leave the capping to someone else. Does that really mean I didn't contribute?

[datav]

Some games I spend all 15 minutes chasing the healer as a sentinel, and leave the capping to someone else. Does that really mean I didn't contribute?

 

As long as it's actually doing some good.

if not, what's the point?

and how many Objective Points do you get on avg?

AND who's your MVP vote going to?

i'm pretty sure if you are doing this whilst defending a point and it is done successfully you should get a decent amount of obj. points. same goes for attacking a point, if you capture it whilst attacking the healer you'll get points. but maybe not limiting yourself to this all the time would be a better idea.

in hutt ball this will be more handy for defense, as i prefer to look for passes and try to score since i have shields, transcendence and the ever annoying force leap.

i think attacking the healer is all really about when and where you do it. you have to make sure that you are contributing.

[Luciferhawke]

Depends on the WZ for me.

 

I always get ripped off on objective points in Voidstar just because i dont stand at the door. Hide behind a pillar and solo stop bomb plants for 20 seconds and get nothing for it. So i just screw voting on that map

 

NC and CW i vote for whoever is defending the side turret. Huttball is usually obj points

[Skolops]

I think you've got the right general idea about Objective based PvP, but you're taking some points to far and not giving others enough credit.

 

The truth is that every single type of statistic is important in accomplishing the objectives, at least the most of the time. In order to accomplish the objectives, you need your healer doing well, and your DPS needs to be pumping out good damage, and against a good team, your tanks also need to be protecting and peeling well. Now, all of this is going to be relative to your opponents, of course - if they don't put up much of a fight, your DPS isn't going to need to do nearly as much, nor are your healers.

 

If you want to take that second node - and defend it - in Civil War, you need DPS that is putting out enough DPS to wipe the opposing team and give you a chance to cap. Sure, you may not need to kill them all, as when one or two are left stuns may let it happen or perhaps the only remaining enemies are too far away to do anything about the cap. On Voidstar, you need your DPS to do well enough to wipe the other team so you can take the door.

 

Of COURSE there are those games where it isn't necessary to do this, and, say a stealther or two can cap the node secretly, but not against a good team. Basically, what a player saying something like, "let's see how many of you can break 100K" isn't necessarily saying that all that matters is damage. Rather, he's probably come off of a number of games with awful players who couldn't do enough damage to accomplish the objectives.

 

On the other side, the way objective points are calculated means that they can also be deceptive. About the only warzone where you can be sure objective points mean much is in Huttball. In the other warzones, its too easy to get them without doing anything to actually help the team win.

 

For example, I might be absolutely useless in a Voidstar but just HAPPEN to be one standing there when it's time to cap a door. Is it good that I did it? Well, sure, yes, absolutely. On the other hand, the 3 Gunslingers who killed the defense in 30 seconds did soooo much more to make it happen.

 

Let's make the example even better. Let's say that we win a close Civil War. Both sides were capped for a long time, but mid actually remained uncapped for quite a while. During that time, 4 times it happens that we have the opponent's cleared out other than one guy, who is stunned while we're capping, and 4 times I shoot the guy while he's stunned, awakening him and letting him stop the cap. Finally when we do cap, I'm the one to do it. After that, I wind up guarding the node solo while my teammates go off to help fight off attackers at the side node - gaining a lot of defender point. During that time, I am stealthed and looking facing towards the enemy spawn, and I never look back to see the guy coming from the other side and capping. We lose the node, and have to retake it before finally winning.

 

At the end of that match, I am going to have a huge number of objective points compared to the others, even though I was the worst player on that team as fa as objectives are concerned.

 

See my point?

[heechJunzi]

Exactly. And how about THAT guy, the one who tries to plant next to you on voidstar instead of helping cc? Just on the off chance you get hit but he doesnt?

[Skolops]

Exactly. And how about THAT guy, the one who tries to plant next to you on voidstar instead of helping cc? Just on the off chance you get hit but he doesnt?

 

I actually think it's good to have 2 people capping on Voidstar, split up on opposite sides of the plant spot. It does happen that one guy gets past any CC or otherwise but can only stop one planter, or that an AoE hits the left side of the door but not the right, or whatnot. Now when you already have 2 people on the door and a THIRD person comes in, that is stupid and he should be elsewhere.

 

It's also good because you really don't want too many people CCIng, either. It happens far too often that because too many people drop CCs at the spawn, the enemy team is resolved and able to break free and stop the cap.

[Aehgo]

DaMage protection healing-These need to be high on civil war,novare coast and VS

Objectives-Need to be high on Huttball,I often get 15k attacker points,win the match in 3 or 4 minutes and only get 3 kills and 20k damage,its really not important in HB.

In CW,NC and VS,

A dps not doing frequently over 300k is a waste of a player(This does not apply if the dps is guarding a node)

A tank not getting over 100k protection is a waste.

A healer not doing over 300k is a waste.

Those numbesr only apply if said player is not guarding a node by themselves and the match is not finished too quickly.Objectives are less important then damage/protection/healing in certain warzones.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Aehgo

[Skolops]

DaMage protection healing-These need to be high on civil war,novare coast and VS

Objectives-Need to be high on Huttball,I often get 15k attacker points,win the match in 3 or 4 minutes and only get 3 kills and 20k damage,its really not important in HB.

A dps not doing frequently over 300k is a waste of a player(This does not apply if the dps is guarding a node)

A tank not getting over 100k protection is a waste.

A healer not doing over 300k is a waste.

Those numbesr only apply if said player is not guarding a node by themselves and the match is not finished too quickly.Objectives are less important then damage/protection/healing in certain warzones.

 

Damage is important in Huttball too, actually, and this is believe it or not probably the most misunderstood thing of all of the warzones. CERTAIN players should probably have low damage in Huttball, especially the "scoring classes." My Shadow does 300K + in just about every warzone, but usually closer to 75K if that in a Huttball, because I am really just moving the ball and doing fire-pulls on defense and that kind of thing.

 

On the other hand, pure DPS classes like snipers, sentinels, even commandos as bad as they can be in PvP right now need to be doing damage, because a huge part of huttball really is controlling the center as well as wiping out the supporting players of those trying to score and the players trying to stop your ball carrier from scoring.

[datav]

I think you've got the right general idea about Objective based PvP, but you're taking some points to far and not giving others enough credit.

 

The truth is that every single type of statistic is important in accomplishing the objectives, at least the most of the time. In order to accomplish the objectives, you need your healer doing well, and your DPS needs to be pumping out good damage, and against a good team, your tanks also need to be protecting and peeling well. Now, all of this is going to be relative to your opponents, of course - if they don't put up much of a fight, your DPS isn't going to need to do nearly as much, nor are your healers.

 

If you want to take that second node - and defend it - in Civil War, you need DPS that is putting out enough DPS to wipe the opposing team and give you a chance to cap. Sure, you may not need to kill them all, as when one or two are left stuns may let it happen or perhaps the only remaining enemies are too far away to do anything about the cap. On Voidstar, you need your DPS to do well enough to wipe the other team so you can take the door.

 

Of COURSE there are those games where it isn't necessary to do this, and, say a stealther or two can cap the node secretly, but not against a good team. Basically, what a player saying something like, "let's see how many of you can break 100K" isn't necessarily saying that all that matters is damage. Rather, he's probably come off of a number of games with awful players who couldn't do enough damage to accomplish the objectives.

 

On the other side, the way objective points are calculated means that they can also be deceptive. About the only warzone where you can be sure objective points mean much is in Huttball. In the other warzones, its too easy to get them without doing anything to actually help the team win.

 

For example, I might be absolutely useless in a Voidstar but just HAPPEN to be one standing there when it's time to cap a door. Is it good that I did it? Well, sure, yes, absolutely. On the other hand, the 3 Gunslingers who killed the defense in 30 seconds did soooo much more to make it happen.

 

Let's make the example even better. Let's say that we win a close Civil War. Both sides were capped for a long time, but mid actually remained uncapped for quite a while. During that time, 4 times it happens that we have the opponent's cleared out other than one guy, who is stunned while we're capping, and 4 times I shoot the guy while he's stunned, awakening him and letting him stop the cap. Finally when we do cap, I'm the one to do it. After that, I wind up guarding the node solo while my teammates go off to help fight off attackers at the side node - gaining a lot of defender point. During that time, I am stealthed and looking facing towards the enemy spawn, and I never look back to see the guy coming from the other side and capping. We lose the node, and have to retake it before finally winning.

 

At the end of that match, I am going to have a huge number of objective points compared to the others, even though I was the worst player on that team as fa as objectives are concerned.

 

See my point?

I see your point and agree to an extent.

I just think DMG is important and having good DPS helps but it's not the most important. Objectives come first, attacking goes with it. And sometimes you don't get just points deserved for what you contributed, but more times than none you will.

I know strange things like the ones you mentioned can happen and that point distribution can be askewed.

the first example, obviously attacker points will be granted and somewhat deserved just for picking the right door or node. but did all three gunslingers die as well, because if not they get the points to (plus Dmg for medals and kill medals). it does seem a little unfair to award you just fr being there, but that's how it is.

The second example, I could see how you think you don deserve much points for that, but just because you did cap it yourself, I'd say you deserve points (makes up for the stun awakenings), and even though you didn't move your camera while stealth to make sure no one caps, you were still smart enough to stay and defend (I've seen WAY too many people leave bases unattended just to go help cap another). And you ended up winning in the end so your points are somewhat deserved because tht victory I somewhat because of you (even though you almost blew it).

And the guy that said the 100k told me that DMG was the most important thing in WZ's. We actually ended up winning with him being the only one to go over 100k. And I know 100k is nothing, I did 97k with a lvl 11 soldier.

I just really that not enough people know what their class should be doing in each WZ.

[MasterFeign]

These kinds of things can go back and forth. One side arguing for more damage, the other for more objective points. Both have their merits, and a balance is usually found, but the best results for that kind of thing are seen in rated warzones. People know what to do, and know their role.

[Bbizzle]

If you were a good player, you should be able to put up ****loads of healing or damage while playing objectively. Unless youre guarding an off door/node and you dont get hit the entire game.

 

100k is really not anything hard to obtain. And it depends on the match, if your attempting to take a node for 5-6 minutes and failing an dyou wind up losing, and you were part of the assualt and did sub 100k damage then you are horrendous. The objective was to wipe them so you could take the node.

 

There is 8 people per game. Only 1-2 should be off-guarding. Maybe theres a healer too. But that means 5 people's job is to basically just strategically re-inforce and kill ****. Meaning DPS. I've been in games where im trying to win. The game ends with me top dps, then 6 people from the other team. Then like 5 of ours, then thier healers then our healers. That is a situation where you lost because you suck and cant push your buttons correctly.

[DarthRaika]

Can't really go by objective score in this game for mvp votes (well if said person is really the mvp for the match). Also, ppl going for high obj scores often hurt the team. I'll give a few examples.

 

Aldeeran - There needs to be 1-2 ppl defending and they will do pretty high obj and are really helping their team, however they often won't be the highest so lets ignore them for this example. If you are not one of those 1-2 then you should be moving quickly and helping both nodes and you will likely get slightly less than someone who stayed too long. Another ex is when you do left and right. The larger group that went right often stays there for cap even when all the reds are dead and there are 2-4 of the enemy on the other side. These ppl stay because they want the huge cap bonus.

 

Vstar defending - you shouldn't just sit on the door if you are ranged and even most the time as melee. It is much better to stay alive and stop them from capping while being slightly outside of defender point score range

 

Vstar offense - you all see the 5 ppl trying to plant when 4 of them should be cc'n. Any noob can plant. The mvp often will forgo planting to cc and stop however they can the enemy from interrupting the plant. Sure there is the rare stealthy that always gets his cap but this is rare in even matches.

 

Coast - same as first example for aldeeran

 

Huttball - well huttball you should often be high but still the actuall mvp will often play support more than scorer/ball handler.

[JackNader]

Of late I've been sitting in stealth well back from the doors in voidstar. The goal is to simply watch the door and wait until my team is wiped. I will then blackout and force speed in and mez anyone capping. If I get caught I combat exit, rinse and repeat. I can also sit behind a pillar and dump deathfield on the door and not be noticed. The goal is to simply stall the cap long enough for a full respawn. At the end of the match I always end up with very few medals doing this but am arguably the most useful player.

 

Also if I am playing my jug I will always sacrifice myself by running at as many enemy players as I can and slow spam the hell out of them. Again I end up with no medals. If my team has even half a clue they will straight cap all the way through to the last security doors while I'm snaring up to 3/4 of the enemy team.

 

Moral of the story.. stats are a guide.. sometimes they mean something.. sometimes they mean nothing.

[JattaGin]

In my opinion, not enough people go for the objectives (at least on my server). In many warzones, I (as the healer) am the only one going for the doors in order to plant a bomb. On Denova, I am very often the only one trying to cap. No matter how much I write in the chat that others please cap, too. The opponent immediately notices that I am the only one trying to cap. Hence I am th eonly threat. So they just focus on me. The others can stay alive. They wouldn't even cap if no enemies are around.

 

I dislike posts like one before which claims that a healer is a waste if he/she does not at least have 300k heals. I do not care about a heal, if I have the chance to cap and no one else takes it. If my pugs make it to the third room on Voidstar, it is likely that I capped both doors and the bridge (although people seem to find it easier to at least cap the bridge). Otherwise we would still be in the first room.

 

At the end, I am "rewarded" with being at the bottom of the scoreboard, because I have least medals and hardly and DMG and heals. Nobody cares for the objective points. I think they should be emphasized much more.

[iamef]

Medals and objective points vs. damage, I think, really depend on the warzone.

 

In Civil War and Novare Coast, you can easily have a player who gains some dmg, guard, or healing in the initial rush, and whether just because of the flow of the game (i.e. endless battle for mid, with nobody cycling through the defended node) or player choice to camp and defend, they may end up with a huge medal / objective count but have contributed little active support to the overall match. On the flip side, someone who has been dancing around the perimeter of any node in Novare Coast, constantly targeting healers, or the enemy melees attacking thier own healers, may put up huge damage, but end the game with just a handful of medals, even though they have actively contributed a huge amount to the match.

 

In Huttball again there is a huge opportunity to work the middle, and the near middle scaffolds, putting up huge damage and getting few medals, even though it was your effort that cleared mid and enabled a quick grab of the ball and a teammate to quickly either pass or pull/be pulled well into the enemy zone. Of course the people scoring are going to have the most medals, and in Huttball I think medals / objective points most accurately reflect team contribution, absent any other information.

 

In Voidstar, again, there is a great opportunity to put up huge damage numbers with few objectives / medals, again in the chase the healer / support your healer and melee class from the outside scenario. However, it is also easy to fall into the trap of engaging the enemy as they drop from the respawn area, or as they cross the bridges, and of course this is a great way to put up damage and also let a door get capped behind you! There is also, I think, less chance of being in a position to farm defensive medals in Voidstar, so I think medals are a pretty accurate measure of contribution in this match also.

 

So, where does my MVP vote go? Usually the top healer. I can't think of any role that is more critical to winning any warzone match (except maybe the classes with CC immune ability in Huttball). Absent a healer, I will usually review the scoring of the top 2 or 3 individuals and the objectives that got them their high medal count, and try to pick the one that played to their class role the best.

[Chikun]

As a healer in the sub-50 bracket I'm usually the top in healing with 250k-300k healing. I also usually get 1-2 votes for mvp at the end of a match. That being said, my votes will always go to the tank that guards me, regardless of objective points simply because the team benefits as a whole and keeping me protected means a lot of people in the group will be immortal for the most part. The runner up for my vote should we not have any tanks that guard me or are derpy will then be the one with the most objective points. However, the likely scenario is that the tank that guards me is usually the one with the most objective points anyway but there have been exceptions to this.

[datav]

Been some good answers here! I didn't expect so many, nor such long responses lol.

Great points made for both sides.

But I still believe that objectives-medals are the most important gauges for a how well a person did.

YES there will be times when one must sacrifice himself or getting obj. points, by play outside the point giving area, BUT it's all done in order for (hopefully) someone in the team to cap/plant/score.

 

someone made mention of attacking and defending on voidstar, and how it's not always smart to fight near the door.. For ranged, obviously not. For melee, as long AS YOU CAN STILL SEE IF DOOR IS BEING CAPPED then it's cool. But tooooooo many people go off and fight away from the door and don't even bother checking

if it is being capped. That's not defense.

[datav]

Of late I've been sitting in stealth well back from the doors in voidstar. The goal is to simply watch the door and wait until my team is wiped. I will then blackout and force speed in and mez anyone capping. If I get caught I combat exit, rinse and repeat. I can also sit behind a pillar and dump deathfield on the door and not be noticed. The goal is to simply stall the cap long enough for a full respawn. At the end of the match I always end up with very few medals doing this but am arguably the most useful player.

 

Also if I am playing my jug I will always sacrifice myself by running at as many enemy players as I can and slow spam the hell out of them. Again I end up with no medals. If my team has even half a clue they will straight cap all the way through to the last security doors while I'm snaring up to 3/4 of the enemy team.

 

Moral of the story.. stats are a guide.. sometimes they mean something.. sometimes they mean nothing.

 

Those are both good techniques for helping the team. The former, I'm sure you get defending point and medals for. I also believe its extremely useful what you do. I've seen so many people that don't use their stealth right.

The latter will only really work if your team is savvy enough to notice what you are doing and score. I have done this as well on my Sent. Having 4 people attacking you in hutt-ball is such a waste of man-power for the other team that your team should see a huge gap to score through.

And like I said, it's all about when and where you do it, and I'm sure you won't ALWAYS be worst on obj. Points or medals.