How serious is the gear gap?

[Kingkabuki]

You said this game takes no skill and are using another game to prove your point?

 

...I said pvp...in aion, rift, wow, AoC, etc, etc, etc...gear determines how well you do, not skill...

[criminalheretic]

I have a fully aug'd WH Mara, and a Sent with like 3 augd WH pieces, and the rest BM, and the difference is noticeable, but not glaringly so. I'd say I perform 10% better on my Mara than my Sent.

 

Recruit gear? I just felt like I had to close my eyes and lube up. I had good games, a lot of them, but just as many where I would die 13-15 times.

[Lurdtz]

Don't worry you will discover the gear gap when the level cap is raised and republic players run into a brick wall of war hero geared players blocking questing spots

[Scritchy]

Compared to Warhammer Online?

 

The gap gear in this game is nothing.

WAR is doing pretty well now, down to 1 US server and nobody will ever go back to it because the gear gap is a freaking chasm.

[Scinald]

I have a fully decked out WH and augmented Jugg.

I have a fully decked out BM and augmented Sniper.

I have a recruit equipped Sentinel.

 

The gear gap between recruit and BM or WH is very very serious for melee toons. My Jugg can (and often does) kill a recruit equipped whatever in 4 or 5 moves. It is brutal. And melee toons (such as my Sentinel) must run into that kind of buzzsaw just to be able to do anything.

 

Conversely, my sniper did fairly well in recruit gear. He, ofc, got better when he earned some BM and got some augments, but playing an engineer spec is about utility more than DPS so he was able to use range and positioning to stay alive until somebody noticed him and do some damage.

 

So, yeah, gear gap for recruit gear is horrible. And you take someone who was king of the hill coming out of sub-50 pvp and suddenly make them die any time a person sneezes on them and it will probably make them want to quit. Btw...how's them subs going EA?

[Darth-Rammstein]

It's still nothing compared to back in the day when you had to pvp in quest gear and slowly earn your champion gear through RNG which for some people as myself had extremely bad luck with. Man, that feels like ages ago now.

[Jherad]

Is it that:

1) I'm only doing that well against low-geared (partial BM) people.

2) I'm playing an OP class.

3) The gear advantage that people in WH (full or partial) have on me is much less significant than often insinuated.

 

I'll take a little from 2, and a whole HEAP from 1 please.

 

Mostly the gear though. I play a gunnery commando in fully augmented war hero - possibly the worst PvP class in the game, and definitely one of the worst matchups against marauders, and I'd be very surprised if you could get me below 50% hp before I smoked you in a 1v1 with your gear.

 

That's not epeen talking - the tables are completely turned in equal gear.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Jherad

[Senatorial]

I'll take a little from 2, and a whole HEAP from 1 please.

 

Mostly the gear though. I play a gunnery commando in fully augmented war hero - possibly the worst PvP class in the game, and definitely one of the worst matchups against marauders, and I'd be very surprised if you could get me below 50% hp before I smoked you in a 1v1 with your gear.

 

That's not epeen talking - the tables are completely turned in equal gear.

 

How much of a difference do you think my sabers (WH main, BM offhand) make in getting DPS out? Cause I certainly don't feel like I'm using a wifflebat on anyone despite having below-average stats in my gear (currently ~1300 STR with a Rakata stim). I never even tried using Recruit sabers, but I think that's the trick for DPS...those items determine flat weapon damage, and DPS classes, especially dual-wields, get an instant boost just from them.

[Skolops]

How much of a difference do you think my sabers (WH main, BM offhand) make in getting DPS out? Cause I certainly don't feel like I'm using a wifflebat on anyone despite having below-average stats in my gear (currently ~1300 STR with a Rakata stim). I never even tried using Recruit sabers, but I think that's the trick for DPS...those items determine flat weapon damage, and DPS classes, especially dual-wields, get an instant boost just from them.

 

Weapons are really the only major upgrade from BM to WH. Everything else is really pretty minor.

[Sinemetu]

I've wondered off and on, what if they just made it so all pvp tiers had the same amount of expertise? Would that cause scaling issues or something? Seems like it would help decrease the recruit -> BM gap without making recruit gear even better for pve (atm it's better than almost any pve blues).

 

But to respond to the OP, yes, recruit to BM is a pretty big gap. As a tankassin, I can kill a recruit marauder 1v1 and still have most of my life--almost all of it, if I use CDs. I'm in augmented BM. If the players are bad, a BM can 1v2 recruits fairly comfortably. I don't feel like there's a huge gear gap between me and the war heroes I've fought, just going off titles like war hero and warlord and whatnot. A WH fotm PT will probably beat me, but I can make it a close fight.

 

In summary, BM vs WH is tough but doable 1v1, but recruit vs BM is a slaughter. The gap gets amplified with every character, because although a single BM vs a single WH has a chance, if you make it 2v2 it starts getting ugly.

[Tragamite]

What I've found after 4 50's is there is some desparity moreso from classes to gear.

 

I would choose number 2, mara are op and fotm. Skill being equal a recruit/bm geared mara could take down a full WH geared player (besides a pt/vanguard)

 

while many would suggest such a thing. DPS vs DPS is not the same as mara vs sent. A DPS Sorc in WH gear vs a Sent in recruit gear roughly stands a 1% chance to win. A DPS Sorc in WH gear against a DPS Sage in recruit would utterly destroy the sage.

 

A sniper in full recruit can still take down a Sent in WH/BM split regularly. The biggest (dis)advantage that can not be mesured in numbers is player skill. The majority of whines come from when an "expert" at X class gets beat handidly by a class that they normally dominate. So when that Sorc in WH gear beats the Sentinal in a WZ a couple of times in a row they get all upity.

 

Where a mara is a DPS class with good survivability they make a good fotm class to which most everyone feels is OP either based on damage or survivabilty.

 

While most people want to see a 1v1 all class 50-50 balance I do not agree cause I enjoy team composition. Although it would take out the fotm scenarios I feel that team composition would suffer.

[theangryllama]

Recruit gear vs BM/WH is very noticeable...

 

BM vs Augmented WH is noticeable...

 

If your not cheap and augment your BM as well you will barely notice it

[Jherad]

How much of a difference do you think my sabers (WH main, BM offhand) make in getting DPS out? Cause I certainly don't feel like I'm using a wifflebat on anyone despite having below-average stats in my gear (currently ~1300 STR with a Rakata stim). I never even tried using Recruit sabers, but I think that's the trick for DPS...those items determine flat weapon damage, and DPS classes, especially dual-wields, get an instant boost just from them.

 

The sabers will be a mild increase, but really the issue is the entire equipment set upgrade. Each piece looks like a reasonable increase from recruit to BM, then a minor increase from BM to WH, and a minor increase again when you add an augment, but together the end difference is huge.

 

I have slightly under 20k hp, somewhere around 1900 aim (iirc), a whole heap of crit and surge, and over 1300 expertise. When the stars align, my full auto crits for over 3k per tick against recruits (I've had it tick for 4.2k against PvE geared peeps, but that's their own silly fault).

 

Edit: You should still be able to do reasonable damage in recruit gear - when I level an alt to 50 and pick up recruit gear, I still expect to put out over 200k damage in a warzone. The main problem is survivability. Recruits are serious cannon fodder.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Jherad

[Woobad]

my full auto .

 

pro.

 

 

 

/qq

[dcgregorya]

A DPS Sorc in WH gear vs a Sent in recruit gear roughly stands a 1% chance to win.

 

If only there was a way to slow the sentinel while bleeding them out with Dots and remove their dots and snare on you...If only...you had a skill on a 4.5 second CD that could cut their damage to you by 40% while hitting them with consistent damage that they cannot heal...hmm.

[JediDuckling]

OK, so all the whiny and complaining threads aside...this game has a gear gap. I've seen conflicting evidence, however, of how severe it is. I want to find out, in a flame-less and logical thread, from some more experienced people how much gear differences really impact gameplay, and how much of the complaining is legitimate.

 

I have a Carnage marauder who just hit 50 maxed out on comms. I bought a BM mainhand, put the mods in an offhand and bought the WH mainhand as well. Augmented those, rest is Recruit. In my very first warzones, the Gore > Ravage > Scream combo (with crit on Scream) could take at least half health off a guy with no cooldowns on. I now have 4 of my BM armor set (unaugmented) and 3.5k+ crits with Force Scream is very common.

 

I haven't looked at full combat logs yet, but I've seen killing blows between 2k and 4k on me from most DPS classes. Never seen a Sent Force Sweep hit for as much as half my health. I sometimes win, sometimes lose 1v1's with other DPS classes (in warzones, not duels, so I can't see their gear).

 

Is it that:

1) I'm only doing that well against low-geared (partial BM) people.

2) I'm playing an OP class.

3) The gear advantage that people in WH (full or partial) have on me is much less significant than often insinuated.

 

recruit to augmented WH is a massive and i mean massive gap.

[PloGreen]

recruit to augmented WH is a massive and i mean massive gap.

 

That's why it's free

[Teambo]

.If only...you had a skill on a 4.5 second CD that could cut their damage to you by 40% while hitting them with consistent damage that they cannot heal...hmm.

 

What skill is that?

[dcgregorya]

What skill is that?

 

Yeah you're right. You have to be spec'd to cleanse it. I thought it was force, it's actually physical. I think they could do a lot for game balance by making cleanses universal without having to spec into it and taking them off the GCD.

Edited August 6, 2012 by dcgregorya

[FourTwent]

...I'm still waiting for a team that uses blue crafted gear...

 

why does it matter? if you wanna play at the top level you'll get the best gear. then you're playing against people with the same gear you are.

 

then it comes down to skill right?

 

i get so tired of hearing people cry about the gear progression in pvp and use the excuse that gear > skill. yet when these people get fully geared, they still complain that gear > skill. it's really sad

[Sinemetu]

Yeah you're right. You have to be spec'd to cleanse it. I thought it was force, it's actually physical. I think they could do a lot for game balance by making cleanses universal without having to spec into it and taking them off the GCD.

 

I wouldn't take them off the GCD, but I would take away the 5s cooldown.

 

I remember a thread from a while back when hybrid sorcs were FOTM, and a sorc made a thread about how to beat sorcs. His entire strat--and it was a long post--revolved around cleansing force effects.

[Bilirubin]

There's a gap, but it isn't as bad as the whines claim or believe. Take a look at my signature and see all of my characters. They've all been in recruit gear at some point, with 2 having worked up to nearly full WH, one to 1/3rdish WH, another to full BM with some WH, and the other one is still in recruit.

 

I am certainly more effective on each character once I get some gear than I am before I do, but I have also been able to be perfectly effective without the gear, though in different ways than I can with the good stuff, of course. I've topped DPS charts, been the uber defender or scoring player in Huttball, and even healed and tanked (with guard) effectively enough.

 

The biggest difference that does exist is that I have certainly found myself far easier to kill in the recruit gear than once I gear up. Oddly enough, it doesn't usually seem to be a real spectrum, either. There's typically a single piece of gear I get after which I suddenly feel tremendously better about my survivability.

 

The utility and even DPS, though, has never really been an issue.

 

This, but especially the bolded. Once I got the chest things took a 180 degree turn in survivability. It may have been cumulative with all of the other bits I had gotten first (ear one implant main offhand boots gloves) of course, but that was the sweet spot for me.

 

I also augment all the BM as I get it.

[Skolops]

This, but especially the bolded. Once I got the chest things took a 180 degree turn in survivability. It may have been cumulative with all of the other bits I had gotten first (ear one implant main offhand boots gloves) of course, but that was the sweet spot for me.

 

I also augment all the BM as I get it.

 

Yes, it's cumulative, and the survivavability before that is pretty bad. I was just in a Novarre Coast where our team needed a second node and I went alone to the enemy's base and found a Recruit Gear Mercenary standing there guarding, and I said to myself, "Cool, we go the node.." 6 seconds later, we did.

[Yogol]

The gear gap been BM and WH isn't really that big. A more skilled BM will beat a WH, but when you start factoring augments then it's starts to get larger.

 

Gear is fine imo.

 

You are, ofcourse, kidding. This game has the most gear-centric PvP of any MMOs I have played, and I have played alot of them.

 

I would not care about this at all, but on top of the pure-gear-based PvP, they also made it so that some classes (Vanguard tanks, to name one) HAVE to PvP to get the best PvE relics. When you then come in a PvP game and die every 15 seconds, well... let's just say there are reasons why this game is loosing more customers than SWG ever did.

[Sinemetu]

You are, ofcourse, kidding. This game has the most gear-centric PvP of any MMOs I have played, and I have played alot of them.

 

I would not care about this at all, but on top of the pure-gear-based PvP, they also made it so that some classes (Vanguard tanks, to name one) HAVE to PvP to get the best PvE relics. When you then come in a PvP game and die every 15 seconds, well... let's just say there are reasons why this game is loosing more customers than SWG ever did.

 

Minus the "gear is fine" comment, the gear gap between BM and WH really isn't that bad.