Years later, why did we expect it to be any different?

[Yeochins]

Don't agree with any of that stuff.

 

Class balance? really? You think people quit because of class balance? People have been whining about class balance in every single damn game since multiplayer existed.

 

There are plenty of mistakes I think mythic made with War, and plenty of mistakes I think bioware made with TOR, but that's ultimately subjective. They don't make games to please me, specifically. The truth is that MMOs are a huge gamble. Players join in droves, obsess, then burn out. Your average MMO gamer these days doesn't stick to one game. Things are different now. Long gone are the days where people stick to one game for years at a time.

 

You want to know what I think? I think that pvp mmos are destined to fail, simply because they are ego driven. And not everyone can win. Your average player sucks, and he doesn't want to be told that. The only hope is to mix it up often enough that he can delude himself into thinking "next patch, then x will happen and everyone will see how awesome i am".

 

I don't disagree that they're ego driven.

 

That's why people quit because of class balance. People don't want to reinvest their time to making yet-another-character viable for PvP. You make a class inferior to certain classes in the same area (DPS), then suddenly you get skipped for those more viable classes in rated warzones, or any competitive environment.

 

You suddenly have three options:

 

1. Re-roll
   
2. Continue playing a gimped character
   
3. Quit
   

 

Whoever is willing to swallow their perceived "effort" put into this game chooses option (1). Whoever generally doesn't care anymore chooses option (2). Otherwise option (3) is chosen.

 

 

Hardly a coincidence that 1.2 class imbalances emptied the PvP servers quickest. Hardly a coincidence that 1.2 class changes involved 3 of the most popular advanced-classes in game. Hardly a coincidence that Bioware had statistics showing that about half of their subscription base never participated in an operation/flashpoint while participating in warzones. You cant prove its the case that class imbalances lead to a dying game. But its easy to draw inference that is very likely to be true.

 

 

By the way you are wrong about multiplayed imbalance. FPS make balance work all the time. Several games have asymmetrical multiplayer gameplay but manage balance due to the sheer advantage of each asymmetric element over another (true rock paper scissors) - Starcraft, RTS.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Yeochins

[Ahhmyface]

I don't disagree that they're ego driven.

 

That's why people quit because of class balance. People don't want to reinvest their time to making yet-another-character viable for PvP. You make a class inferior to certain classes in the same area (DPS), then suddenly you get skipped for those more viable classes in rated warzones, or any competitive environment.

 

You suddenly have three options:

 

1. Re-roll
   
2. Continue playing a gimped character
   
3. Quit
   

 

Whoever is willing to swallow their perceived "effort" put into this game chooses option (1). Whoever generally doesn't care anymore chooses option (2). Otherwise option (3) is chosen.

 

 

Hardly a coincidence that 1.2 class imbalances emptied the PvP servers quickest. Hardly a coincidence that 1.2 class changes involved 3 of the most popular advanced-classes in game. Hardly a coincidence that Bioware had statistics showing that about half of their subscription base never participated in an operation/flashpoint while participating in warzones. You cant prove its the case that class imbalances lead to a dying game. But its easy to draw inference that is very likely to be true.

 

 

By the way you are wrong about multiplayed imbalance. FPS make balance work all the time. Several games have asymmetrical multiplayer gameplay but manage balance due to the sheer advantage of each asymmetric element over another (true rock paper scissors) - Starcraft, RTS.

 

Actually, I think 1.2 made class balance better. 1.3 improved on it. Of course, any time you nerf one FOTM, another rises to take its place. It's inevitable. We all know marauders and pts are next. After they are nerfed, sniper will prolly be fotm. I didn't say games can't be balanced. I said people will always whine about it. Take Starcraft. You can find literally thousands of forum threads claiming each race is OP.

 

The truth is that regardless of actual imbalance, there is always perceived imbalance due to varying player skill levels and perspectives about the best way to play.

 

Like I said, I think people quit because a) it's boring to play just 1 game b) most people aren't cut out for pvp endgame and need to blame class balance c) it's not new and shiny anymore

Edited August 2, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[NathanielStarr]

#3 big time

[ProfessorWalsh]

I think the problems TOR have are because they tried to be too much like WoW and lost sight of Star Wars.

 

Let me explain...

 

WoW is a game. It is a popular and successful, if in my opinion bad, game. The problem with comparing TOR to WoW is simple... WoW had years and years and years to develop itself to what it is now. TOR tried to clone WoW way too closely in mechanics and game play and as such started in a losing battle.

 

Why would I play a game that is copying WoW if I don't like WoW?

If I do like WoW then why would I play a game that is like WoW but with less refinement?

 

TOR's main opportunity was to provide an MMO experience that was significantly different in playstyle, mechanics, and focus than WoW. That was the only way TOR was going to be successful.

 

Initially they tried this.

 

The story focus is great... But it simply isn't enough. There were no attempts to really differentiate this game from WoW. There was story that had next to no impact at all and the choices did not impact the game play significantly if at all. So there wasn't much of a focus on story.

 

This game promised us "heroic content" and swore up and down that we wouldn't see WoW-like raids. Specifically we were told that we would NOT see big "everyone fight the boss" operations. Then we were given nothing but WoW-like raids and little to no "heroic content" defining "heroic" as they originally outlined.

 

BioWare kept pushing the Imperial faction at every chance they got, not taking into account that most people:

A) Don't actually want to play the underdog in a game that doesn't actually end.

B) Don't want to play a faction that looks like it is inferior and "not as cool" very much.

C) Want to be unbound by rules and want to look "awesome" and "dark" if they can.

 

They championed the virtues of the Sith constantly but never really got into the major downsides, so much so that many posters on these very forums have gross misunderstandings of what Sith are while at the same time honestly believe the Republic and the Jedi are genocidal maniacs.

 

This game ended up being a mediocre half-finished product.

 

It is a watered down version of WoW with an injection of storyline and a Star Wars skin on it.

 

What could have been great died because it was afraid to take chances.

 

BioWare was also warned. I warned them. Many other people warned them. We saw the writing on the wall and told them... They told us we were wrong. They mocked us. They brushed us off. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

[Bbizzle]

I think the problems TOR have are because they tried to be too much like WoW and lost sight of Star Wars.

 

Let me explain...

 

WoW is a game. It is a popular and successful, if in my opinion bad, game. The problem with comparing TOR to WoW is simple... WoW had years and years and years to develop itself to what it is now. TOR tried to clone WoW way too closely in mechanics and game play and as such started in a losing battle.

 

Why would I play a game that is copying WoW if I don't like WoW?

If I do like WoW then why would I play a game that is like WoW but with less refinement?

 

TOR's main opportunity was to provide an MMO experience that was significantly different in playstyle, mechanics, and focus than WoW. That was the only way TOR was going to be successful.

 

Initially they tried this.

 

The story focus is great... But it simply isn't enough. There were no attempts to really differentiate this game from WoW. There was story that had next to no impact at all and the choices did not impact the game play significantly if at all. So there wasn't much of a focus on story.

 

This game promised us "heroic content" and swore up and down that we wouldn't see WoW-like raids. Specifically we were told that we would NOT see big "everyone fight the boss" operations. Then we were given nothing but WoW-like raids and little to no "heroic content" defining "heroic" as they originally outlined.

 

BioWare kept pushing the Imperial faction at every chance they got, not taking into account that most people:

A) Don't actually want to play the underdog in a game that doesn't actually end.

B) Don't want to play a faction that looks like it is inferior and "not as cool" very much.

C) Want to be unbound by rules and want to look "awesome" and "dark" if they can.

 

They championed the virtues of the Sith constantly but never really got into the major downsides, so much so that many posters on these very forums have gross misunderstandings of what Sith are while at the same time honestly believe the Republic and the Jedi are genocidal maniacs.

 

This game ended up being a mediocre half-finished product.

 

It is a watered down version of WoW with an injection of storyline and a Star Wars skin on it.

 

What could have been great died because it was afraid to take chances.

 

BioWare was also warned. I warned them. Many other people warned them. We saw the writing on the wall and told them... They told us we were wrong. They mocked us. They brushed us off. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

 

I don't always whole-heartily agree with all your posts you make but you consistantly give well thought out opinions spliced with well researched facts. And With this post I do agree completely with you.

 

Alot of games this can be said for but..There is so much wasted potential. Sure other games have had potential, but this is star wars, this is it, one of the biggest franchises in the world. There is so much wasted potential here it makes a grown man cringe as if in pain. Maybe they have somehing really good cooking for 1.4 and the free to play that we dont know yet? but honestly...Why even bother trying to hope for the best at this point, This game is now at roughly 700k subs and still declining. When guild wars 2 hits this games subs will be sub 500k which is why they are going F2P to avoid embarrassment and retain critical mass on servers.

 

I saw the writing on the wall pre-launch with how they just never seemed to answer anything about pvp except "We will have it" Pvp has been the biggest let down for me. 4 warzones and a failed open world that tthey might as well have removed the entire zone? Warhammer was considered a fail game and itts pvp was FAR superior. They have 12 end game zones that could potentially be contested, with keeps and battle objectives. And they have like 30+ warzones at launch! Let alone years into the game. Some warzones were only available while certain zones were contested.

 

Just really disappointed, this past few days have been really down in the dumps just thinking about all the poor development choices.

[Philastra]

LOL I say that often and I still have much faith im BW to continue to make this game enjoyable, but EA ehh ,was leary of even starting this game becuase of them and well EA strikes again....correct me if i'm wrong but this a record for a subbed game to go F2P in under 8months. Nice job EA .

 

If at first you don't succeed, keep smashing your face against the brick wall.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I don't always whole-heartily agree with all your posts you make but you consistantly give well thought out opinions spliced with well researched facts. And With this post I do agree completely with you.

 

The saddest part?

 

I'll straight up say it.

 

With 6 months, a decent budget, and with the ability to deviate sharply from WoW... I could make this game the best MMORPG on the planet and I am not exaggerating.

[Lord_Karsk]

All thos points are most valid when it comes to swtor aswell.Sad they did not learn.

[ArchangelLBC]

This thread was more interesting when it was mainly about starcraft 2, a game I have never played.

 

 

carry on.

[Katsuragisama]

I don't disagree that they're ego driven.

 

That's why people quit because of class balance. People don't want to reinvest their time to making yet-another-character viable for PvP. You make a class inferior to certain classes in the same area (DPS), then suddenly you get skipped for those more viable classes in rated warzones, or any competitive environment.

 

You suddenly have three options:

 

1. Re-roll
   
2. Continue playing a gimped character
   
3. Quit
   

 

I think this is the biggest thing that goes hand in hand. PvP players really just want the ego (it seems, and not all of us). The moment they showed 1.2 on the PTS all of the sorcs went crazy it seemed. Even some of the healers in my guild. The thing is, they stuck it out and kept playing their sorc. One stayed healer, another felt healer became inferior, so he went DPS. Once our healer got more used to it, she became more skilled for it. She worked on kiting, and LOS, and just laughed at the marauder FOTM rerolls that couldnt kill her. The other, eventually started switching between DPS and Healer.

 

So the issue? Many felt that because they couldnt adapt to the changes, they were underpowered. But they didnt even bother to try, they quit or rerolled. No while I took a break, our healer has gone from Sorc, to Operative. And it seems she is having an even better time with her operative healer. So she'll probably never take back up her sorc.

 

Not to mention we have specs. The tank spec for the assassins has always been viewed as superior. I love my deception spec. Tank specs rotation bores the crap out of me. But tank spec can still pull the same amount of damage, with more armor, and utility (I seriously miss force pull). I'm not sure as far as rated, as I'm hardly on and theres so few rated's being run since I've come back anyways. But pretty sure most view Deception as inferior to Darkness.

 

The saddest part?

 

I'll straight up say it.

 

With 6 months, a decent budget, and with the ability to deviate sharply from WoW... I could make this game the best MMORPG on the planet and I am not exaggerating.

 

That's the issue as you said. You dont spend hundreds of millions of dollars trying to out WoW, WoW. It's been around for years. It's combat system is pretty damn fluid. This is coming from a guy who played it while I was in Afghanistan. Even with a ping of 800-1100ms or so, I was still able to play WoW, because they have no ability delay and it just feels so reactive to the press of a key. SW:TOR? I get a spike of 200-300ms and I am pissed. 800-1000? Forget about it, I'd rather log out and quit playing. I played WoW to 22 and got bored, quit and never gave it a second thought. But if SW:TOR could have that fluidity to its combat, I think it would make a huge difference.

 

If they didnt try to out WoW WoW, instead do something innovative, would they be a success? Innovative good game? Sure. Star Wars IP? Hell yeah. But WoW has been around forever. It's added features, it's had more time to fix bugs, it's had plenty of expansions. You just cant compete.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[richardya]

I blame the community.

The community for MMO's is ruined by a certain segment of that community and it is not the developers fault and I can prove it.

 

The real problem with Ilum was the community. Whatever the developers did people would find ways to ruin it. Point trading or zerging or whatever. This was a community problem. The rewards were too good, they were too low etc etc. This is the community that will quit WZ's if losing rewards in WZ's are too light or sit by a turret if the losing rewards are too good. This is a community that complains that a class is OP when no changes were made to it since launch, the only change was other classes were nerfed. Then it switches to comlplain that the worst class originally is now the best post it's buff.

 

 

Proof:

How can I mathematically prove this to be true?

Well, the developers change every game but the community lives on and the problem persists. Does anyone doubt the complaining about about balance and content will be any different in GW2? There has never been nor will there ever be a game the community doesn't rip apart. This has been the case since the old MMO communities became infested with the younger generation as a result of WoW.

 

If I am wrong this will be proven by a game that is enjoyed and appreciated by the gaming community. If I am right, this nonsense will go on and the only great game will be the one that is "coming soon." As it stands I have heard nothing about how WoW, Terra, LoTR or anything is better then SWToR, the only games people say is better is the one that is not out yet. It's like babies who like what the other kid is playing with more than their own toy.

Edited August 2, 2012 by richardya

[kcol]

I think class balance problems have more to do with TTK after 1.2 then any real class imbalance issues. But I will say, having played my Sage all this time, if they raise TTK, give me personally more survivability in a buff, or nerf the perceived OP classes, my Sage will be way OP simply do to the tactics I have had to imploy to survive in a WZ now. Edited August 2, 2012 by kcol

[mangarrage]

I did a quick Google search after coming across this, and I didnt see this link posted anywhere on SW:TOR's forums. I figured for all of the PvPer's here it would be a nice, detailed, and interesting read for those who might not have played Warhammer. Remember, the same devs that made this, are the same ones that are working on SW:TOR, or atleast the higher ups.

 

What Went Wrong with Warhammer Online? Is it a failure?

 

The arcticle goes on to point out some key issues in Warhammer Online.

 

 

 

1) Lack of a Third Realm Doomed Warhammer to Failure

- If you were only allowed one reason why WAR failed, this would be it. A number of the subsequent failures hinge on the absolute disaster of a decision to go with only two realms.

 

2) Too Much Crowd Control

 

3) Horrendous Lack of Class Balance

- After years of supposed balance work and tweaks, the lack of class and realm balance continues to plague Warhammer.

 

4) Lack of Population Balance

- it is hard to understand how EA/Mythic did not see this one coming. The Destruction character models had dramatically superior art, and pretty much all the "cool" looking avatars.

- Two years later and the same problems persist.

 

5) Meaningless PvP that Lacked Emotional Connection

 

6) Terrible Server Performance

- Warhammer was billed as a game that would support huge, large scale battles where you could assault forts, siege cities, and more. Unfortunately, if you got more than 50 to 100 players in the same location, the lag and server performance made the game almost unplayable.

 

 

 

1) Too Much PvE, Too Much Emphasis on Gear, for a PvP/RvR Oriented Game

2) Too Much "WoW Clone"-itis.

3) Too Much Focus on Adding New Content Rather Than Fixing Existing Content

4) Terrible Crafting

 

Tell me, does any of this sound familiar? Maybe it's just me, but it all rings true for a game released years later. BioWare learned nothing...

 

It is amazing isnt it?

I mean really this is so amusing.

I was even one of the ones who brushed off the fact that Failhammer devs would be working on SWTOR and every single staement applies

So yes they learn absolutely nothing, fail model then=fail model now

[kcol]

I blame the community.

The community for MMO's is ruined by a certain segment of that community and it is not the developers fault and I can prove it.

 

The real problem with Ilum was the community. Whatever the developers did people would find ways to ruin it. Point trading or zerging or whatever. This was a community problem. The rewards were too good, they were too low etc etc. This is the community that will quit WZ's if losing rewards in WZ's are too light or sit by a turret if the losing rewards are too good. This is a community that complains that a class is OP when no changes were made to it since launch, the only change was other classes were nerfed. Then it switches to comlplain that the worst class originally is now the best post it's buff.

 

 

Proof:

How can I mathematically prove this to be true?

Well, the developers change every game but the community lives on and the problem persists. Does anyone doubt the complaining about about balance and content will be any different in GW2? There has never been nor will there ever be a game the community doesn't rip apart. This has been the case since the old MMO communities became infested with the younger generation as a result of WoW.

 

If I am wrong this will be proven by a game that is enjoyed and appreciated by the gaming community. If I am right, this nonsense will go on and the only great game will be the one that is "coming soon." As it stands I have heard nothing about how WoW, Terra, LoTR or anything is better then SWToR, the only games people say is better is the one that is not out yet. It's like babies who like what the other kid is playing with more than their own toy.

 

100% totally agree.

[mangarrage]

I blame the community.

The community for MMO's is ruined by a certain segment of that community and it is not the developers fault and I can prove it.

 

The real problem with Ilum was the community. Whatever the developers did people would find ways to ruin it. Point trading or zerging or whatever. This was a community problem. The rewards were too good, they were too low etc etc. This is the community that will quit WZ's if losing rewards in WZ's are too light or sit by a turret if the losing rewards are too good. This is a community that complains that a class is OP when no changes were made to it since launch, the only change was other classes were nerfed. Then it switches to comlplain that the worst class originally is now the best post it's buff.

 

 

Proof:

How can I mathematically prove this to be true?

Well, the developers change every game but the community lives on and the problem persists. Does anyone doubt the complaining about about balance and content will be any different in GW2? There has never been nor will there ever be a game the community doesn't rip apart. This has been the case since the old MMO communities became infested with the younger generation as a result of WoW.

 

If I am wrong this will be proven by a game that is enjoyed and appreciated by the gaming community. If I am right, this nonsense will go on and the only great game will be the one that is "coming soon." As it stands I have heard nothing about how WoW, Terra, LoTR or anything is better then SWToR, the only games people say is better is the one that is not out yet. It's like babies who like what the other kid is playing with more than their own toy.

 

This is true to a point I admit. And a ton of responsibility does lie in the 2nd gen, entitled, I want it now, generation, but honestly the games down the pike have had huge issues for the most part.

-Aion in the beginning was a huge lag fest, crash to desktop anytime you tried to take a fortress. It was pretty much unplayable. Now I played 3 months total and quit, if it gt better then it did but in the beginning it was unplayable

-Failhammer-Sorc and BW just so far out of whack it wasnt even funny. PVP endgame broke for over 3months and fortresses again became lag fests

-Rift a great game ruined by the "its too hard crowd" they nerfed the dungeons to the ground. GSB bugged bad LGS unkillable due to bug and don't get me started on the epic fail that was Hammerknell

-AoC of the 3 end game areas 2 were bugged and you could replicate the bug to easily win and one was overtuned and bugged

-Vanguard was about 75% complete when released, falling through world etc etc

 

I mean I can go on and on, so you cannot put all of this on players, although I depise most of the 2nd gen gamers attitudes. There have been some horrible failures in basic design and functionality from developers as well

[Skolops]

I think this is the biggest thing that goes hand in hand. PvP players really just want the ego (it seems, and not all of us). The moment they showed 1.2 on the PTS all of the sorcs went crazy it seemed. Even some of the healers in my guild. The thing is, they stuck it out and kept playing their sorc. One stayed healer, another felt healer became inferior, so he went DPS. Once our healer got more used to it, she became more skilled for it. She worked on kiting, and LOS, and just laughed at the marauder FOTM rerolls that couldnt kill her. The other, eventually started switching between DPS and Healer.

 

So the issue? Many felt that because they couldnt adapt to the changes, they were underpowered. But they didnt even bother to try, they quit or rerolled. No while I took a break, our healer has gone from Sorc, to Operative. And it seems she is having an even better time with her operative healer. So she'll probably never take back up her sorc.

 

Not to mention we have specs. The tank spec for the assassins has always been viewed as superior. I love my deception spec. Tank specs rotation bores the crap out of me. But tank spec can still pull the same amount of damage, with more armor, and utility (I seriously miss force pull). I'm not sure as far as rated, as I'm hardly on and theres so few rated's being run since I've come back anyways. But pretty sure most view Deception as inferior to Darkness.

 

 

 

That's the issue as you said. You dont spend hundreds of millions of dollars trying to out WoW, WoW. It's been around for years. It's combat system is pretty damn fluid. This is coming from a guy who played it while I was in Afghanistan. Even with a ping of 800-1100ms or so, I was still able to play WoW, because they have no ability delay and it just feels so reactive to the press of a key. SW:TOR? I get a spike of 200-300ms and I am pissed. 800-1000? Forget about it, I'd rather log out and quit playing. I played WoW to 22 and got bored, quit and never gave it a second thought. But if SW:TOR could have that fluidity to its combat, I think it would make a huge difference.

 

If they didnt try to out WoW WoW, instead do something innovative, would they be a success? Innovative good game? Sure. Star Wars IP? Hell yeah. But WoW has been around forever. It's added features, it's had more time to fix bugs, it's had plenty of expansions. You just cant compete.

 

I think you hit on a huge part of things: so much of what happened around 1.2 was not about the game per se as it was the attitude of the players. I remember all of the whining about sorc nerfs - especially healing. The thing is, the really good sorc healers I knew stayed really good after 1.2, and the bad ones stayed bad (or disappeared). It's been said by many people that this game has/had the worst community out of any game they have played, and I wonder if that is true and how much it's impacted things. In reality, though I don't think everything about the game is perfect, I do think that it's fair to say that the vast majority of people who have complained about classes and/or balance are bad, or don't know what they're talking about, or are just lazy.

 

Like I said, those who were any good and/or stuck with their sorcs stayed good. They didn't suddenly get bad. The majority of people, though just decided to give up and either quit or reroll rather than stick with it, see how it goes, or try to adapt. Now you have a game like GW2 coming in, which is very good for these kind of people because it lets you reroll basically instantly, and I suppose that's good on the one hand. On the other, I wonder if it's really got quite a bit of bad to it because of the attitude it encourages, and I wonder what kind of player base they'll have encouraging that attitude.

[MobiusZero]

I think the biggest issue I always had with SWTOR, is how much of a WoW clone it is. I remember when I first started playing the game, I wanted to vomit when I saw the talent trees.

 

I also think that the game engine needs to be mentioned, since I think one of the main issues with the game, was the way BW handled that. They basically bought the engine when it was in early development, and then cut ties with Simutronics, and proceeded to do their own thing with it, making changes and tweaks. I almost feel bad for Simu, since I think that the problem was not with their engine, but with how BW basically completely changed it and messed it up. It's a shame, too, because I was looking forward to seeing the engine in action, and put to good use. Instead, we had to live with a FPS nightmare, with game implementations that seemingly were completed no more quickly than other games.

 

Look at the whole Ilum disaster!! They had to completely scrap it because their engine couldn't handle it!

 

Maybe you should have kept ties with Simutronics, hmmm?

 

It's like me taking a Ferrari, gutting it and replacing it with after market parts, and then being surprised when it falls apart because it wasn't working as designed!

 

It's a shame, because Star Wars is all about major faction battles, and we get to see none of that. It's just 8v8 teams pitted against each other, fighting over a tiny little piece of insignificant land! (Or a huttball! lol). I don't feel any connection to my faction, or my fellow faction members, when it comes to fighting for the realm. In fact, the way the game was made to work, my own faction is as much my enemy, as the enemy faction is.

[Katsuragisama]

I blame the community.

The community for MMO's is ruined by a certain segment of that community and it is not the developers fault and I can prove it.

 

The real problem with Ilum was the community. Whatever the developers did people would find ways to ruin it. Point trading or zerging or whatever. This was a community problem.

 

...You're no better than BioWare. People complain, yup, definitely, not going to argue there. But to blame the community for Ilum. Please do tell me how it is the gamer's fault that Ilum was a slide show. That's right, it wasn't, it was...

[...]

I also think that the game engine needs to be mentioned, since I think one of the main issues with the game, was the way BW handled that. They basically bought the engine when it was in early development, and then cut ties with Simutronics, and proceeded to do their own thing with it, making changes and tweaks. I almost feel bad for Simu, since I think that the problem was not with their engine, but with how BW basically completely changed it and messed it up.

[...]

Look at the whole Ilum disaster!! They had to completely scrap it because their engine couldn't handle it!

[...]

B-I-N-G-O! It was the ****** Hero Engine. Thank god Elder Scrolls Online wont be using that. They were quick to clear that rumor up. Instead, they made their own engine using Hero Engine as a whiteboard. Just like ArenaNet has been building onto their engine themselves, ever since Guild Wars 1.

 

Speaking of which...

 

[...[

 

Like I said, those who were any good and/or stuck with their sorcs stayed good. They didn't suddenly get bad. The majority of people, though just decided to give up and either quit or reroll rather than stick with it, see how it goes, or try to adapt. Now you have a game like GW2 coming in, which is very good for these kind of people because it lets you reroll basically instantly, and I suppose that's good on the one hand. On the other, I wonder if it's really got quite a bit of bad to it because of the attitude it encourages, and I wonder what kind of player base they'll have encouraging that attitude.

 

You are correct!

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.”

 

The people who were already good, just adapted their playstyle. Hell, I would say this actually made them even better for it. But we also learned a lesson from that too didnt we? If you cant be bothered to learn a class, rerolling to another FotM class, wont make you any better. One of my favorite healers recently made an Operative. And she's having fun on that as she learned that class as well. The FotM rerollers, will just fail anyways.

 

So in that, I think GW2 will give someone like me more options. I could make a new class and get a feel for it off the bat in sPvP, before deciding if I want to level it. I already plan on making a Thief, as I love burst DPS. But the Mesmer seems like it could be very tricky, complicated, and interesting. So I could quickly make one and get a feel for it, before pouring hours and hours of time into it, only to set it aside or delete it.

 

That's what I think it will encourage mostly. Now will it have baddies who just remake because they felt that the other class they played sucked? Because they couldnt come to the conclusion, that they're just bad? Most definitely. Will that naive attitude manifest itself into whines and complaints in the forums about OP/UP classes? Abso-lutely! But they'll cry and move on to the next game, eventually.

 

It's a shame that from what it sounds, someone like you wont be coming to GW2, Skolops. As much as I've gone back and forth with you, at least you're logical and articulate about it.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[Skolops]

It's a shame that from what it sounds, someone like you wont be coming to GW2, Skolops. As much as I've gone back and forth with you, at least you're logical and articulate about it. [/color]

 

Oh, no, I definitely plan on playing the game, and I'm even excited about it. I just don't think it's going to be able to hold me for very long - and I honestly don't think it's going to hold others for very long, either.

 

I felt the same way when everyone I knew - in game and in real life - was waiting with rapt attention for D3. I used to say, "this game will be popular for about 2 weeks, and then the active player base will plummet." I kindof feel that way about GW2, though I certainly think it will last a lot longer than D3 did. It's just that, for all of its innovations and good aspects, it just doesn't have a lot of the kinds of things that really draw someone in and get them invested like an MMO needs to.

 

I think that's really the key. MMOs are meant to be second worlds for their player base, and so the really be successful they need to draw people in and hold them - but its the world that needs to draw the people in, not the mechanics. You can copy mechanics until you're blue in the face - look at DotA, LoL, HoN, etc.... This is one of the reasons TOR hasn't done as well as it could - it copied a lot of mechanics from WoW, but its world never managed to catch a lot of people.

 

GW2 is certainly drawing a LOT of people in, but its the mechanics that are drawing people in, not the world. What remains to be seen is, once folks pop that disc into the drive and log in for the mechanics, is the world of GW2 going to then draw them in, and grab a hold on them. I just don't see it happening, unfortunately.

[Asukaa]

I've played all the Beta's for GW2 and honestly, I'm not impressed. SWTOR still looks better graphically. SWTOR still feels a lot more fluid regarding character movement. And SWTOR has more entertaining PVP. The play style is vastly different as well. Apples and Oranges.

 

 

As for BW... I don't entirely blame them for the issues in SWTOR. I'm more likely to blame EA. They ultimately make the decisions and as you might have guessed, those decisions are usually based on immediate monetary gains. Part of the blame does go to BW as well though. The devs were not in touch with the community like Blizzard's dev team was and it makes a huge difference. Also, there were a lot of WoW-ish things I was expecting that we never got in game like cross-server wz's, macros, mods/add-ons. This I think is EA's fault because they control the money and say where it is spent.

[Katsuragisama]

Interesting to know. Maybe we'll end up on the same server. I'm not going to disagree with you though. Luckily for my guild they got to try out BWE3, when I found out about it, it would have taken me forever to download the game. I will agree that the mechanics are drawing me, as unfortunately, I have not experienced the game myself.

 

There was a MMO that had an awesome starter zone I read about. I think the starter zone was from 1-15, or maybe 1-20. But once you got out of the starter zone, every thing after that was just a barren wasteland with nothing to do. As soon as people discovered this fact, they quit in droves. I believe the game was Tabula Rusa, but don't quote me on that. Been looking into a lot of the failed MMO's recently.

 

That and community is what drives MMOs. It's not just a game you can explore, but you can explore it with friends or make new ones. But from what I've seen of game play, their dynamic quest and the NPC's actually seem more alive. Gamers want that sense of adventure. Not a box of dialog that says Minotaurs/Bandits/Aliens/Scoundrels are attacking some village/city, only to go there and see mobs are just standing around doing nothing, but waiting to be killed.

 

I'd watch Totalbiscuit's thoughts on the final beta.

Watching that was pretty hilarious. Especially when the NPC leading the dynamic quest yells, "Oooh, SHINY!!!", and goes running off. And I'm hoping with that, and the events like the keg brawl, etc, etc, that the game will have some life to it.

 

FFXI was my first MMO, and all of the mobs usually roamed around or had bands of Orcs gathered by a camp fire. So when I've tried WoW/Rift/SWTOR and see them all just standing around, it kind of takes that away from the experience. I'm hoping if Guild Wars 2 combines that, plus some life in the city and other areas that I'll get sucked into the game. And went the sidekick system, it'll mean I can go back to other places, explore, and not feel over leveled and the contents too easy/irrelevant. Where as WoW/Rift/SWTOR just kind of point you along a path of "This is where you HAVE to go if you want to level up.", and its boring.

 

That's my hope anyways, and we'll see if ArenaNet is consistent with that past the starter levels.

 

I've played all the Beta's for GW2 and honestly, I'm not impressed. SWTOR still looks better graphically. SWTOR still feels a lot more fluid regarding character movement. And SWTOR has more entertaining PVP. The play style is vastly different as well. Apples and Oranges.

 

 

As for BW... I don't entirely blame them for the issues in SWTOR. I'm more likely to blame EA. They ultimately make the decisions and as you might have guessed, those decisions are usually based on immediate monetary gains. Part of the blame does go to BW as well though. The devs were not in touch with the community like Blizzard's dev team was and it makes a huge difference. Also, there were a lot of WoW-ish things I was expecting that we never got in game like cross-server wz's, macros, mods/add-ons. This I think is EA's fault because they control the money and say where it is spent.

 

From what I've heard the game had hardware locks on the graphics settings, so people dont go maxing it out to something their system cant handle, but I think that's supposed to be removed. From what I've seen of screenshots and some gameplay at 480p/720p I kind of like GW2 better. But to that and the rest of your comment, to each his own.

 

Though I still dont understand people's obsession with macros. @_@

Edited August 2, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[mangarrage]

gw2 will hold people for alot longer then d3 or tr will that I can guarantee.

What people experienced in the beta is a fraction of the game.

You mentioned the keg brawl. My guild spend a couple hours doing that at the end of beta3 and I will say that is the most fun I've had in awhile in a game.

And that is just one side game in one town.

Just an extra so to speak, whether people are into or not, so be it, but its the little things that hold alot of people as well.

My guild decided we are going to do it at least 1/month now cause everyone had a blast.

 

But whether it holds after 6mo or 12mo is another thing, but there is so much in that game. They ended beta with an event, that end event was something the developers said took 6 hours to create and it was fun as hell the fact that they can do something like that that quickly makes me look forward to other things like that as well

 

Im not hyping it, I don't hype any game anymore I've been around too long but the more I find the more I am intrigued

[Katsuragisama]

Six hours? I dont doubt it actually. Since they built their entire game engine, they continued to build upon it, so should know the entire ins and outs of it. I think Mike O'Brien (I think it was him anyways), was quoted saying that within 6 months they could make an entire expansion. if that's true, yeah I could see them doing an event in 6 hours. >.>

[TheRampage]

This game had great class balance at start. You could do PVP with every single one, you could kill people with every single one. This days we all know which 4 classes we want in our team, and what we ignore.

[Katsuragisama]

This game had great class balance at start. You could do PVP with every single one, you could kill people with every single one. This days we all know which 4 classes we want in our team, and what we ignore.

 

So true.