[Guide] The Watchmen and Combat PvE basics

[arkitip]

To your Wachman Stats in the guide:

 

The Spec ist totally ok, but:

 

You shall not lie to the pupils you see^^

 

My approach:

 

I am a Crit Stacked Sentinel!

(Now freeze in shock and do what ever you do when in schock:rak_01)

 

Aka I got 2229 Strength and 556 Crit stacked which make roundabout 50 (Crit Force) [-6% for Melee Cri]

Accuracy is 100%

Multiplier is 76%

 

To the Point DPS is without Adrenals in T4 full around 1750-1800 with 50% T4.5 (no weapons yet!) I am always over 1800 DPS without Adrenals;-) Stacking Power you do the same or even 5-10 DPS more if you have lucky proccs, but now comes the thing, that makes the Crit Wachman powerfull.

 

He can heal easily 400-500 HPS in a fight aka 1.000.000 HP healed in Kephess Asation HC Boss fight, a Wachman that prioritises Power lands at around max. 200k HP healed aka ignorable. If I look at bossfight were ther is a lot of spread DMG (example Second Boss Asation HC) the Crit Wachman is great, because he is a DD that doesn´t need Heals in most cases.

The Problem with a Crit Stacking is, that you HAVE TO KNOW YOUR CLASS aka you fail your DPS dump to the ground:D

 

 

While I understand your reasoning, this simply demonstrates a lack of understanding the game mechanics.

 

Crit rating is on a diminishing returns curve, where the more of it you have the less each point is worth. The returns on the 1st 100-125 points of crit are phenomenal and worth it for every DPS spec. What happens though, is that the curve becomes steeper around the 300 rating, and steeper still when you push 400, etc. and those points become worth much less than power. Power has no diminishing returns, each point is worth the exact same amount no matter how much of it you stack.

 

The HPS, while an added benefit, are simply not worth stacking crit that far into diminishing returns for.

 

Definitely play what is comfortable for you and your guild, but this is not advice anyone else should be following.

[Atlanis]

The point all critics seem to forget, that I do the same DMG as a Wachman stacking the Crit I have more than 250 or so in Power. Maybe that sentinel I had a hard "Fist Fight" about Stats is just bad playing his Class, but in the End the DPS were almost the Same.

 

I have roundabout 950 Bonus DMG in Force If I did what 90% of the Wachmans due (stack Power) I would loose almost 6-7% Crit buffed and gain roundabout 60-80 BonusDMG max. . I am not a theory crafter, but more pracitacal orientated so here is my understanding.

 

I crit every 2nd Hit that means and every 1.5 Hits for the Dots (notice got almost 50% in Force Crit), those Crits are smaller than the ones of a Power stacked wachman but he only crits every 3rd Normal hit (or less given the 25% Crit Sentinels running round nowadays in full T4) and only every 2nd DoT normaly (if we includ Zen!!!). The DMG was the same as I said before.

 

So its just I crit every 2nd hit at least, but smaller, a Power stacked crits far less but higher --> in the end no difference in DPS, but I live longer;-)

 

Power Stacking is something I can´t advise any Sentinel 35% Crit buffed is really OK for people still a little uneasy with ther classe in PVE, put the Rest in Power and you do fine DMG even if you mess up. To max you either go Combat or stack Crit or Power majorly on Wachman, depends on your DPS "RoTa".

 

Its just the feeling I have, that Power stacked Wachmans(not more than 150 Points in Crit) are a lot less useful to the raid as melees. I´d rather take a Combat Sentinel than a Power stacked Wachman^^

[Atlanis]

That is literally exactly what I said.

 

The healing from the Burns is nice, but Crit for watchmen is rather unimportant because of the 20-30% up-time of Zen, making your abilities auto crit.

 

Again False Zen ist up for 6 Ticks autocritting every 30s if you are good, rath 45s, since you save valorous call for Inspiration;-) Crit is the most important stat for DoTer DDs, you shouldn´t go overboard (690 is Hardcap!!!) but it is you most important Stat to watch.

 

Don´t like it play Focus lol Smasher --> Stack Power only^^

[BlznSmri]

Again False Zen ist up for 6 Ticks autocritting every 30s if you are good, rath 45s, since you save valorous call for Inspiration;-) Crit is the most important stat for DoTer DDs, you shouldn´t go overboard (690 is Hardcap!!!) but it is you most important Stat to watch.

 

Don´t like it play Focus lol Smasher --> Stack Power only^^

 

Your argument is that crit is the most important stat for watchmen sents based on the heal alone. That's all well and good, but after ~350 the DR on Crit makes it less valuable than Power.

 

Your ultimate goal as a DPS character is to maximize your damage per second. Stacking crit after 350 rating is wasting your stat budget and gimping the dps you can do. Especially since you get an extra 15% chance to crit because of Juyo form and an additional 6% from Insight.

[Atlanis]

Your ultimate goal as a DPS character is to maximize your damage per second. Stacking crit after 350 rating is wasting your stat budget and gimping the dps you can do. Especially since you get an extra 15% chance to crit because of Juyo form and an additional 6% from Insight.

 

Can´t go against believes, but as I said a Crit Stacked Wachman is totally as viable in terms od DPS as a Power Stacked. Had enough DPS Races with fellow Sentinels who are Power stacked and seldomely lost;-)

 

P.S.: Even if it ist gimping my DPS to the bad, Theorycrafterlogic, still on the top of all classes;-)

[Aurojiin]

If one of my sentinels stacked crit on the basis that it made his personal burn heals tick slightly more often, I'd kick him from the raid group.

 

As a healer, your burn heals mean nothing to me in serious op encounters. Maximise your DPS and do your job.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Aurojiin

[BlznSmri]

If one of my sentinels stacked crit on the basis that it made his personal burn heals tick slightly more often, I'd kick him from the raid group.

 

As a healer, your burn heals mean nothing to me in serious op encounters. Maximise your DPS and do your job.

 

Pretty much this.

[BogyOne]

The point all critics seem to forget, that I do the same DMG as a Wachman stacking the Crit I have more than 250 or so in Power. Maybe that sentinel I had a hard "Fist Fight" about Stats is just bad playing his Class, but in the End the DPS were almost the Same.

If you like to and you'll PM to me your raid buffed stats: Strength, Willpower, Power, Force Power, Critical, Surge and Accuracy Rating I will mince them in Excel and give you theoretical difference between your current setup (so playstyle is not causing any difference) and 30-75 model.

 

As I see it now, your very high crit causes huge overage above 100% of crit on Zen which could be transformed into damage to have bigger crits at Zen.

Edited November 10, 2012 by BogyOne

[Atlanis]

If you like to and you'll PM to me your raid buffed stats: Strength, Willpower, Power, Force Power, Critical, Surge and Accuracy Rating I will mince them in Excel and give you theoretical difference between your current setup (so playstyle is not causing any difference) and 30-75 model.

 

As I see it now, your very high crit causes huge overage above 100% of crit on Zen which could be transformed into damage to have bigger crits at Zen.

 

The Red marked shows your problem, things seem nice in theory or impossible in theory. The Practical Use and the theoretical calculations almost differ everytime. In the End in reality and in Raids I see, that my Crit Stacked Wachman is as good as the "theoretical" best Wachman Spec/Stat resolution.

 

I tested many specs and stats relation in experimentaly same conditions and found that both Crit and Power Stacked Wachman Specs are viable in a certain Area of Stat Variation of +-50 Points in either of them on Tier 4. As you just work with "Thin Air" and Excel your arguments sound nice and good, but in the End stand on no fundament.

 

P.S.: Its a general problem in anglo-american thinking and relying on formulas an stringent thoughts of Argumentation an Resolve. The Chaotic Thinking and the practical orientated EXPERIMENTAL testing in actual situations is rather a Phenomena of Central European thinking;-)

 

P.S.S.: Chaos --> Thats why we rulez:D

[Atlanis]

If one of my sentinels stacked crit on the basis that it made his personal burn heals tick slightly more often, I'd kick him from the raid group.

 

As a healer, your burn heals mean nothing to me in serious op encounters. Maximise your DPS and do your job.

 

Make me laugh, I maximised my DPS, still know only a handful of sentinels on my server who do more DPS (oh they got 5-10DPS more thats so important). Crit stacked sentinels do the SAME DPS as the 30/75 (only looking at Melee here). The rule I follow in Crit stacking is have 550 Crot : than have 550 AP (at least) too.

 

By the way, you are no sentinel so shut your mouth;-)

[Mr_Fuzzle]

P.S.: Its a general problem in anglo-american thinking and relying on formulas an stringent thoughts of Argumentation an Resolve. The Chaotic Thinking and the practical orientated EXPERIMENTAL testing in actual situations is rather a Phenomena of Central European thinking;-)

 

P.S.S.: Chaos --> Thats why we rulez:D

 

Guy, on behalf of rational tolerant people everywhere, I would like to slap you for these absurd statements. That being said, what people are trying to get across to you is not that you shouldn't stack crit necessarily, just that stacking power will theoretically get more dps. To assume that nobody else has tested this experimentally is very illogical and frankly insulting to the rest of this community. Some people do the initial modeling using spreadsheets and formulas, however there have been tests of whether high crit or low crit (164 or 328) gives higher dps. It has also been tested that crit past 328 decreases your overall dps. That is all I have to say on this matter.

[BlznSmri]

The Red marked shows your problem, things seem nice in theory or impossible in theory. The Practical Use and the theoretical calculations almost differ everytime. In the End in reality and in Raids I see, that my Crit Stacked Wachman is as good as the "theoretical" best Wachman Spec/Stat resolution.

 

I tested many specs and stats relation in experimentaly same conditions and found that both Crit and Power Stacked Wachman Specs are viable in a certain Area of Stat Variation of +-50 Points in either of them on Tier 4. As you just work with "Thin Air" and Excel your arguments sound nice and good, but in the End stand on no fundament.

 

P.S.: Its a general problem in anglo-american thinking and relying on formulas an stringent thoughts of Argumentation an Resolve. The Chaotic Thinking and the practical orientated EXPERIMENTAL testing in actual situations is rather a Phenomena of Central European thinking;-)

 

P.S.S.: Chaos --> Thats why we rulez:D

 

All data I've posted in this thread has come from extensive testing and experimentation by myself or others that have contributed in this thread. I don't care for metrics or equations because I personally don't understand it all. Math hasn't been my forte since middle school.

 

Crit stacking, as ridiculous as it sounds because the DR on Crit Rating starts to hit it hard after 328, might work for you, and you might out dps other (arguably subpar) sentinels and that's fine. For you. I will not recommend it in my thread.

 

Also, please keep all ethnic and cultural **** out of my Guide thread. This is not the place for it.

 

Make me laugh, I maximised my DPS, still know only a handful of sentinels on my server who do more DPS (oh they got 5-10DPS more thats so important). Crit stacked sentinels do the SAME DPS as the 30/75 (only looking at Melee here). The rule I follow in Crit stacking is have 550 Crot : than have 550 AP (at least) too.

 

By the way, you are no sentinel so shut your mouth;-)

 

Um... Aurojin has been a great contributor to this thread and if you would just read their signature you would know that they actually play a Combat sentinel. Hell, my sentinel isn't even my raiding main anymore because my guild needed another tank when EC hit and I had experience.

 

Don't be such a *****, and kindly, leave my thread.

[Aurojiin]

Make me laugh, I maximised my DPS, still know only a handful of sentinels on my server who do more DPS (oh they got 5-10DPS more thats so important). Crit stacked sentinels do the SAME DPS as the 30/75 (only looking at Melee here).

No, they do less DPS. Only a few percent less, but you're still starting down the path of some pretty erroneous reasoning. Why don't you stack some Endurance as well, so that your self-heals tick for more?

 

Also, you need to research how stats work, because simply stacking to 30/75 is not optimal (don't get me wrong, it's a good benchmark, it's just that for those who are mathematically inclined you can still tweak a bit).

 

By the way, you are no sentinel so shut your mouth;-)

I find your arrogance amusing on two levels. One, because I do play a sentinel (apparently your reading comprehension is a little lacking - look at my signature again). Two, because your primary justification for over-stacking crit is because it increases your self-healing, and you believe your opinion on the matter apparently holds more weight that the player whose job it actually is to heal people. I take back my previous statement: I wouldn't kick you from my raid, I'd just stop healing you, because you clearly know better. Wonder how long you'd survive on Toth and Zorn.

 

Edit: out of respect to Blzn, who has done excellent work with this thread, I won't be responding to your posts anymore, unless they're constructive.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Aurojiin

[arkitip]

It's just flat out bizarre to be insulting towards theory crafting DPS on a mathematical basis, given the fact that the actual workings of the game are mathematical. There are equations available for each and every topic we've discussed here within the game itself, and the theory crafting people have done is based on the game's own mechanics.

 

Because of that, I again point toward a lack of understanding the game mechanics. You can stack crit until you're blue in the face, and the fact will still remain that it hits a steeper DR curve in the 300-350 range and each point beyond that has statistically less weight than a point in power.

 

So you're a DPS class, gearing themselves to do less DPS. Even if it's only by 5%, it's still less. And your rationale for doing all this is to help your healers? If your healers are having trouble keeping DPS alive through the incidental raid damage, you need better healers, not more crit stacked to 500+ sentinels.

 

 

The only reason I've bothered to argue this far is because your original post said Blzn didn't have his facts correct. The work that's been done here is the result of Blzn's own work and the revisions that have been made with the input of the rest of the community. Your contribution to this has been a way to do less DPS but increase HPS. Ok, duly noted.

[BlznSmri]

Moving on from that debacle:

 

I changed one of my mod suggestions to make more sense and be arguably better and elaborated on using Cauterize for Combat.

 

I will elaborate on using Master Strike for Watchmen later, with suggestions of how to use it.

Edited November 17, 2012 by BlznSmri

[BlznSmri]

Bumpity bump bump.

 

They need to change something about sentinels so I can write about it...

[HemiHilliard]

Bumpity bump bump.

 

They need to change something about sentinels so I can write about it...

 

In a good way tho lol

[Navcire]

The 30% crit mentioned for Watchmen. Is that pre or post buffs?

[BlznSmri]

The 30% crit mentioned for Watchmen. Is that pre or post buffs?

 

Pre buffs.

[thasensei]

First of all, awesome information in this thread, thank you very much!

 

How does Focus spec stack up in single-target damage since the 1.4 changes? I imagine you lose utility, but I'm curious how it compares with regards to DPS.

[BlznSmri]

Just about everything I've seen is that in single target fights it does upwards of 100 dps less than Watchmen and Combat. In AoE fights like Writhing Horror, if you're on add duty, it will do just a bit better than Watchmen and Combat, but otherwise, I wouldn't even bother.

 

Lolsmashing is (in my opinion) for PvP and don't flow too well for PvE.

[Shadowseve]

I've been looking for a guide like this awesome man thanks.

[BlznSmri]

Off topic, but I feel REALLY dirty when Dispatch crits with the Precision Slash buff up... 6k crit without stim/ inspiration.

 

Also, going on in the Marauder version of this thread is a breakdown of Precision Slash rotations for Combat spec used by people that do way more DPS than me (admittedly, my Sentinel is alt status right now).

 

Both player's PS rotations are fairly similar and break down as such.

 

1. Blade Rush > Pause 1 GCD > Precision Slash > Master Strike > Blade Storm.

2. Blade Rush > GCD > Precision Slash > Blade Rush > Blade Rush > Blade Rush > (4th BR if in Zen) > Blade Storm.

 

This guarantees that Blade Storm will always crit (hitting for close to 4k as opposed to 5-6k ith current gear) while giving Blade Rush and its forced Ataru Form procs a 100% armor penetration.

 

Another thing is in my suggestion of using Cauterize just before a PS cycle there's a major chance that Combat Trance buff will fall off and not have a chance to get reapplied before you're able to use Blade Storm, losing the crit buff (This might have been pointed out already in this thread, if not then in my Marauder one). This mostly applies to Master Strike + Blade Storm cycles.

 

I personally still prefer to do a PS cycle of;

BR > PS > Blade Storm > BRx2-3

but I haven't played around with the other cycles just yet.

 

 

Food for thought really.

[DrGun]

Sticky! Love this, keep it coming!

[Moedin]

Focus PvE Build

 

I am only lvl 40 right now. Wanted to give it a go with Focus, what you think? I need something with leveling livability because I find single targets a bore and groups get me good. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I like what Focus has to offer, wasn't sure if I should skip out on Force Exhaustion till later and go with the 3% Accuracy early... trying to figure my self out.

 

Also, did stat priority change for 1.6? I'm also trying to get my gear in order (been outta the game since Feb )

 

+1 for sticky!

Edited December 15, 2012 by Moedin