Why Hero Engine Bioware?

[Darth_Halford]

The benefit from making their own engine, or using a more tested one like Unreal engine is that they can fine tune it more, and then there is performance.

 

An engine is everything, from the sound you hear to the low system-function calls to print something on the screen. These things needs to go fast, and right, use as little memory as possible with good result. This is why licensed engines like unreal is good to choose, but Hero was still brand NEW and not even fully developed when they started developing swtor. This is what we're seeing with all the problems today.

Apparently I'm not seeing what you're seeing. What "problems" are there that I seem to be missing?

[PlayLoud]

I don't know enough about programming (hardly a darn thing) to say whether the engine is holding the game back. What I do know, is BioWare took the Hero Engine that they purchased, and modified it heavily to fit their needs (per their own statements, years ago). For any of us who did not work on the BioWare version of the Hero Engine, it is pretty arrogant for us to make specific claims about the engine.

 

My impression of the game is, it looks beautiful. I have a decent system (specs in my sig), and I can run the game game with max details at 1080p with an acceptable frame rate. There are times in the fleet where it slows down a bit, but during normal gameplay (flashpoints, operations) the frame rate has been fine. Again, this is 1920x1080, with everything (including Anti-Aliasing) maxed. The only complaint I would have, is how hot/fast my video card gets at times. There are places where the game brings my GPU to a 99% load, and then the fan spins like crazy.

 

To truly get an idea of how much work is going on in the game. Try turning the details (especially shaders) down to minimum. You really see what is missing. All the shaders, the lighting, the shadows, etc. On max settings, the game looks outstanding. No, it isn't photorealistic, but looks great none the less.

 

I would appreciate any fine tuning they can do to make the game run better (cook my GPU less), or look better. That being said, I think they did a great job. It's a beautiful MMO, and the performance has been fine on my system anyway.

Edited July 24, 2012 by PlayLoud

[xorcist]

They needed a cheap engine bc they spent all the money on VO.

 

IMO I think they should have went with the Unreal Engine 3.5. They already had the rights to use it bc of ME 1,2, and 3.

 

and i agree that the Unreal Engine would've made a much more fabulous choice. Your home is only as good as the foundation its sitting on and the Hero Engine (later butchered) was not a very good foundation. I would pay for a Redo but thats never going to happen.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Most of us, if not all are veteran gamers the one thing I noticed that is a constant annoying thing that appears to have mixed results depending on your machine is.

 

A: Loading Screen: Upon first playing the game, they take an average of a few seconds to load up once you logged in. Then when you go to the fleet [loading screen] or go to your hanger [loading screen] generally do your daily's you are bound to see this message often. It increases the longer you spend on the game and sometimes it appears to be stuck then finishes loading

 

B: Machine's that get too hot too fast. If you play on Max Settings even on a high end gaming computer. It consumes nearly all of your PC. I had to turn down the graphics and right away noticed a massive difference. It shouldn't take so much out of the PC to play the game

 

C: The server's are unstable. Remember when they had to disconnect the server a bunch of times and sometimes twice a week take them down for a few hours. I noticed something really odd too when I'm in the fleet sometimes it will say "republic fleet 2" as if they are two separate fleets on the same servers to handle the traffic.

 

D: My biggest blah, and meh about this. From Warcraft to Guild Wars2, and nearly every other gaming company has built their OWN engine. Yes, it's expensive but it's worth it for that fluid like combat. I am confused by the lack of comment by the dev's about the engine.

 

The quotes I got were directly from Hero Engine website. They told us more about how the meeting happened then bioware. I'm not directly bashing the game. It's a very compelling story telling game. On the same note we just supposed to ignore all this stuff.

 

Only recently did we even get high texture graphics. In beta the graphics were much better but for some reason the had to dial it back. People who believed they were playing on highest setting, were actually on medium. Only just recently did we get "Bloom" and other features.

 

Be nice for a polite comment regarding the engine to help us better understand from their team. Not asking for the world just a message from the staff about the engine and what it's capable of and it's limits.

[xorcist]

The benefit from making their own engine, or using a more tested one like Unreal engine is that they can fine tune it more, and then there is performance.

 

An engine is everything, from the sound you hear to the low system-function calls to print something on the screen. These things needs to go fast, and right, use as little memory as possible with good result. This is why licensed engines like unreal is good to choose, but Hero was still brand NEW and not even fully developed when they started developing swtor. This is what we're seeing with all the problems today.

 

This is what makes me sad with what we have at the moment in SWTOR. Sound realism and quality is basic. Lighting and Shadows are very basic or non existent. I've seen fake lighting and shading painted on objects to resemble what should be coming from a source. It really bugs me to see these things in game. A lot of the rooms are lit up, and I have no idea where the room is getting all this light from.

 

In the beginning of the new video for HK-51, we can see actual light sources illuminating an area/object. the rest of the area that is not receiving direct light is poorly lit or darkened. Thats what i want. Doesnt have to be at that resolution, or those textures. But show proper lighting and shading. Something I think the Hero engine can't do.

[nezitx]

I don't know enough about programming (hardly a darn thing) to say whether the engine is holding the game back. What I do know, is BioWare took the Hero Engine that they purchased, and modified it heavily to fit their needs (per their own statements, years ago). For any of us who did not work on the BioWare version of the Hero Engine, it is pretty arrogant for us to make specific claims about the engine.

 

Exactly. These threads come up in pretty much every MMO forum, even after the developers state that they heavily customized the game's engine to fit their needs. This thread is full of complete speculation, misinformation, and countless unfounded assumptions.

[Lt_Latency]

I think good game engine programs are pretty rare.

 

They might not have the staff to build engines from the ground up. Mass effect used the Unreal engine. I don't think any of their games are built using a new engine.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Exactly. These threads come up in pretty much every MMO forum, even after the developers state that they heavily customized the game's engine to fit their needs. This thread is full of complete speculation, misinformation, and countless unfounded assumptions.

 

What we DO know that they acquired the Hero Engine when it wasn't finished. Hero Engine told them when they were interested in the product that it wasn't ready for security and other reasons. That is a statement on their own website.

 

What we do not know

 

A: Why did they acquire this small time company's product instead of investing in their own.

 

Maybe it wouldn't be full of unfounded assumptions if Bioware actually responded. We don't have to be a genius to see the effect the game has on our PC and compare it to other games. Even Rift which had HD quality graphics was very smooth, no lag.

 

Yes, it's full of speculation because Bioware hasn't commented on it and kept quiet for over 7 months about it. You don't exactly bring anything new to the table. Unless your one of those people who say unless we understand coding we don't know what we're talking about.

 

It's common sense and rational logic to see what other gaming systems do and what this one has done. Then by being aware we can notice a difference. Perhaps all the details would be clarified if Bioware would simply respond but based on the current information. That's what we have to work with.

[nezitx]

They probably grabbed it early so they could modify it to be their own, without having tons of overhead and code to cut. That's just a guess, but as someone who does programming it makes sense.

 

While I do programming for a living, I haven't worked on a game engine. So I won't presume to know the specifics enough to say whats right and wrong.

 

It's funny you mention Rift because one of my favorite Dev responses was about this topic, from a Rift developer. I wish I had a screenshot, but he basically shot down all these wild assumptions that the engine is responsible for everything and that it's even remotely similar to what the engine they started with.

 

I certainly wish someone at Bioware would write a long blog entry with enough information to explain to non-programmers about how their engine works, how they changed it, and what it's responsible for. However I think they probably have better things to do.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

They probably grabbed it early so they could modify it to be their own, without having tons of overhead and code to cut. That's just a guess, but as someone who does programming it makes sense.

 

While I do programming for a living, I haven't worked on a game engine. So I won't presume to know the specifics enough to say whats right and wrong.

 

It's funny you mention Rift because one of my favorite Dev responses was about this topic, from a Rift developer. I wish I had a screenshot, but he basically shot down all these wild assumptions that the engine is responsible for everything and that it's even remotely similar to what the engine they started with.

 

I certainly wish someone at Bioware would write a long blog entry with enough information to explain to non-programmers about how their engine works, how they changed it, and what it's responsible for. However I think they probably have better things to do.

 

If the engine isn't the problem you would assume it would be in their best interest to explain what is. It only takes but 15 minutes to write a non PR response to why some machine's are clogged with memory overload. And the constant loading screen wait.

 

If it's not the engine. I'd certainty like to know what it is. But based off other MMO's who created their own engine and Bioware who acquired Hero Engine then modified it. There isn't a list of other thing's it could be. It doesn't take a heart surgeon to discover the massive difference in the MMOs.

 

I could simply say, what problem. No long loading screens, no the server's are not being dropped unexpectedly. There is no lag and everything is running fine. It appears to be on my end. That is not the situation though I wish it were.

 

Simply stating that we "don't understand" with no offer to explain what we don't understand and clearly even yourself do not know fully what they did after they got the hero engine. It could have sat in a dark rooms for months or they could have coded it heavily.

 

We don't know, neither do you. No matter your knowledge on gaming and coding. What we do know however there is a pattern of problems that a ton of people are having that they did not experience on other games. Maybe they just don't know but it is something.

[Tuscad]

They arent even using the real Hero Engine, they bought it while it was still under development and modified parts of it. I believe they bought the unfinished engine simply because it had Hero in the name before launch they used the word 'Heroic' non stop to describe the game.

[Arkerus]

Exactly. These threads come up in pretty much every MMO forum, even after the developers state that they heavily customized the game's engine to fit their needs. This thread is full of complete speculation, misinformation, and countless unfounded assumptions.

 

I've posted it a million times. I've explained it a million times. The masses do not care.

[billyconnite]

Read my thread here for SOME information on this engines issues - It's a useless support ticket however there are some things explained in some of my posts.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=507316

 

In the end - The engine choice (As stated by BW in an interview I have watched) comes down to FAST content production only. That's all. Usually when an employee of a gaming company is asked about their engine or an engine they have used they will state more than simply "fast production."

 

Do some research on the hero engine - It's been created with one goal in mind: FAST, EASY content production. The graphics renderer itself is 1 thread only - Rendering STOPS altogether, this is the reason for lower frame rates in areas where more information is to be processed, and this also gives you the stuttering effect you may notice from time to time.

 

This can be fixed - Whether it will be, is another story. BW is at a stage where it needs to prioritize development very carefully to keep current persevering subscribers happy. Quality of service is something they have obviously had on low priority for some time.

[JonathanCP]

I just remember, in the first few weeks, some very detailed complaints about the engine's overall responsiveness...

Bioware listened, and they made a few modifications.

 

After a somewhat uneventfull patch, the responsiveness was WAYYYYYYY better (it's not on par with WoW, but it's good), and even the dude who had made alllllll those youtube videos comparing WoW's and SWTOR's responsiveness said it was a tremendous improval.

 

So don't freak out about the Hero engine. It can, it has and it will be modified over the years.

This is just one of those forum myths that keep coming back everytime someone has a computer issue...

 

That, or they say the game has a "memory leak" problem

[billyconnite]

So don't freak out about the Hero engine. It can, it has and it will be modified over the years.

This is just one of those forum myths that keep coming back everytime someone has a computer issue...

 

That, or they say the game has a "memory leak" problem

Noones freaking out. It's not a debate as to whether the current engine being used is not up to the task in some situations - It's a fact... And has been proven many times.

 

The engine still needs lots of work - And we are paying BW monthly to work on this game. Some want content - Others optimization.

 

There is nothing wrong with us expressing our opinion and EXPECTING BioWare to work on their engine at some stage.

Edited July 25, 2012 by billyconnite

[StreakerDroid]

This topic is pointless. The engine is what it is, no need to debate the choice 9 months down the road. The light and shadows are very banal and althoug a matter of taste I find the graphics poor in this game. This looks like a game from early 2005. Look at Aion, it is probably one of the best looking MMOs, if I am going to stare at a screen for years to co e it might as well be a nice sight.

[Darth_Halford]

Look at Aion, it is probably one of the best looking MMOs, if I am going to stare at a screen for years to co e it might as well be a nice sight.

 

And also look at how its subscriptions have fared. No better or worse than other mmo's.

 

There has never been any correlative data between how good the graphics of the game are vs. sales, especially in the MMO market.

 

What does drive purchases and subscriptions is content, wether story driven content or not, people play games for what they can do, not what they can look at.

[xorcist]

This topic is pointless. The engine is what it is, no need to debate the choice 9 months down the road. The light and shadows are very banal and althoug a matter of taste I find the graphics poor in this game. This looks like a game from early 2005. Look at Aion, it is probably one of the best looking MMOs, if I am going to stare at a screen for years to co e it might as well be a nice sight.

 

The graphics need work. They look unfinished. Refer to my last post on the bottom of page 8

[PlayLoud]

The graphics need work. They look unfinished. Refer to my last post on the bottom of page 8

 

For an MMO, I think the graphics look great. The way the light reflects off my armor and such, I find it very acceptable. I mean, the graphics aren't groundbreaking, but still good. I would say the biggest problem I have with the graphics, is the art style used for old people. They look like they have clay faces that weren't smoothed out. But, knowing they were never going for a photorealistic look, I can accept this.

 

I would be ok with any improvements they want to make to the graphics engine, but I think it already looks great. Certainly not a reason to get upset over IMHO.

[angrydurf]

Well to start with Bioware doesn't really write engines. Pretyt much all of their games license a core engine then Mod to taste. This is because engines are hard and writing your own is very hard.

 

Hero Engine seemed tailor made for Bioware. It was built for MMOs thus could handle the expected loads. It's development environment is very friendly to simultaneous development on several fronts (Which later proved to be limited in the numbers ToR operated at) it also supported the range of systems Tor was aiming to support.

 

Alot of people like to throw up Unreal as an option. It isn't. It can't handle the numbers that MMOs need to support, has pretty steep system requirements and would require extensive built from scratch subsystems to fully support MMO use. It's not an MMO engine and while great for shooters it really doesn't see use in MMO's for that reason. Terra has used it ... and well it kinda stinks.

 

Now Hero engine has not lived up to expectations unfortunately. It's development environment couldn't stand up to a team the size that worked on ToR and Bioware needed to mod it to bring in preferred tools in alot of places. The overall graphics quality I feel is lower than they would have liked but that is a mix of engine and supporting lower end systems.

 

Honestly though the engine is pretty solid for what it is I've not seen much int he way of lag or loss of FPS and I don't rock a top end system (nor do I try to run at those settings)

[Arkerus]

What we DO know that they acquired the Hero Engine when it wasn't finished. Hero Engine told them when they were interested in the product that it wasn't ready for security and other reasons. That is a statement on their own website.

 

What we do not know

 

A: Why did they acquire this small time company's product instead of investing in their own.

 

Maybe it wouldn't be full of unfounded assumptions if Bioware actually responded. We don't have to be a genius to see the effect the game has on our PC and compare it to other games. Even Rift which had HD quality graphics was very smooth, no lag.

 

Yes, it's full of speculation because Bioware hasn't commented on it and kept quiet for over 7 months about it. You don't exactly bring anything new to the table. Unless your one of those people who say unless we understand coding we don't know what we're talking about.

 

It's common sense and rational logic to see what other gaming systems do and what this one has done. Then by being aware we can notice a difference. Perhaps all the details would be clarified if Bioware would simply respond but based on the current information. That's what we have to work with.

 

It's almost laughable to think bioware is going to spend any time explaining their decisions to a bunch of entitled, angry gamers on the internet. Get real man. This isn't a meeting room.

[rickpArry]

keep in mind that heroengine wasn't always a 99$ 1 year license, a couple years ago it was like 4500 for a similar lifetime license, not including the source code. bioware payed millions of dollars for the source code and revised and finished it to make it into their own engine, and it is basically a relative of heroengine, and not the same thing. if you go and but a heroengine 99$ license right now, it is not the same thing that bioware originally bought.

[Blaac]

*SNIP*

I'm not bashing the game. I'm not looking just to insult you. It may come across that way. I am really honestly trying to get a direct NON PR answer to this. It's kinda obvious to just ignore it. Just please break it down for me, for us. Help us understand.

*SNIP*

 

You will never get what you want, large companies will never outright state anything that could have an obvious negative twist added to it. If they say "well it was ok, but the cost was better than the rest" they get the "Oh, so BW is cheap" responses. If they say, "At the time we thought it was the best" they get the "Oh so BW doesn't do their research" or "Oh so BW is stupid" responses. ect. ect. ect.

 

Its always about PR. No matter how long this thread gets, or how many players get mad and yell at each other, or call each other names, or threaten to cancel their subs... If all you want is a NON PR answer, you will never get an answer.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Blaac

[Cymate]

The whole argument of 'We modded it, not the same, (imply it's better)' is a bit short because still, the performance is sub-par.

 

Now look a the lag:

 

When you get in an area with many new toons, the game lags (has a lot to digest in the alloted time slot).

 

If the volume of data transfered Server<>Client is not enough to account for the lag, either the server engine or the customer engine is not 'computing' fast enough. So the engine needs optimizing or smtg...

 

If the volume is very large, it may choke any good engine. So the data itself needs to be optimized (shortened).

 

Any crappy engine may be optimized IMO

[renmasterflash]

I searched the Hero Engine website and the list of MMO's that are using their engine... one that got my attention is this Dominus Online... another sci-fi MMORPG that also use the Hero Engine... and as I checked this game's website, the PVE content has Dynamic events that trigger and controlled by people... at PVP, there's this factions at War large scale PVP and arenas... I think the engine is not at fault if other Game Developers/Publishers can do this on the same engine that run SW:TOR... the answer as to why Bioware/EA go into this direction into which where SW:TOR at right now is beyond me...

 

here's the link for your reference:

 

http://www.heroengine.com/spotlights/dominus/

 

http://www.dominusthegame.com/game/pve/

 

http://www.dominusthegame.com/game/pvp/