Soooo.. GW2 is coming and you do nothing to keep the PvP-Players here?

[fungihoujo]

I was hoping someone could either confirm that combat in GW2 doesn't have anything like this, or provide me an example of where it does so I can take a look at it.

 

It's not nearly as predictable- though as the dodge video shows there are abilities you'll want to avoid or blind or block.

 

It's a bit closer to dodging in demon's souls- many hard hitting abilities have a bit of a build up to let you dodge... though not so much that you don't need fast reflexes too.

 

The way the abilities work together is far more adaptive too- gotta do a bit more thinking (the UI needs some work though, not as customizable as I'd like, and if you replace hotkeys it doesn't show up which makes the learning curve annoying for new specs). Despite a few SWTOR abiltiies needing a build up, for the most part SWTOR combat is about spamming a big CD move once they're off CD and then using filler, and very predictable combos.

 

Countering almost all classes in SWTOR is very simplistic in mind set- snipers, get close to them while using LoS or combat stealth, prepare for the KB by having your back to a wall, or leap to an enemy standing next to them... when entrenched, keep out of LoS. Sorcs- mash everything to get and stay close. Mercs- interrupt TM. Healers- interrupt big heal, lock down, focus. Mara- scramble desperately until you're dead. etc...

 

In GW2- all classes can spec in multiple ways, and pretty much all have good spike builds, conditions builds, survivability builds, distance or close builds, etc... with a huge selection of possible gear choices. Point being- you can't just assume because you're fighting a certain class you can always use the same strategy that worked on the last person of that class in GW2 because they could be playing in a drastically different way.

 

I have played many classes in the beta- and different types of specs- the game is highly varied, and with the customization you have people saying everything from burst to survival to regenerating to gradual dps builds are the best builds for each class- and when you try those builds it feels like there really is strengths and weaknesses to each build.

 

SWTOR you have almost everyone playing one spec per class- PT pyro, op healer, sorc healer/lightning hybrid, anni or carnage mara, smash jugg, dps tank shadow, etc.... the variety just isn't there because a- for the most part only full tree specs work, and several full tree specs are simply awful in pvp (exception of sorc since the full heal spec has terrible survivability and resource regen).

Edited August 3, 2012 by fungihoujo

[Skolops]

Don't get what you mean about order of cast- the abilities all mean something in GW2, and there isn't always a 'must do in this way rotation', partly due to things like the dodge mechanism.... having a predictable rotation is just asking to get evaded in GW2.

 

As for buffing up abilities- no, there's no talent tree, you just pick certain abilities you want- which does include signets which have passive abilities, short term buffs, and abilities that work well together (ie- an ability that does X more damage based on conditions an enemy has works well for a heavy condition build) or that buff pets up for the mesmer/ranger.

 

Not to mention combining your spells with ally spells.

 

Frankly- all in all it'll be more varied than spamming tracer missile or force lightning.

 

This is what I'm not so sure about.

 

For example, take the Ranger with a longbow. As far as I can tell, Rapid Fire is going to do the exact same thing every single time it's used, no matter what was used before, no matter what traits are selected, no matter anything. What it does is "Fire multiple arrows at your foe." for 1060 damage and that's what it will always do. For an Elementalist with a Staff, Flame Burst does the same thing every time its used, no matter what. Nothing changes it, or procs it to behave any differently or any better, etc. etc. Of course, you can activate a Signet before attacking, but this will provide more of a general and flat boost to whatever you cast as opposed to something in TOR where you cast, for example, Force Lightning for a reason - it's meant to set something up. The same with Tracer Missile.

 

Here's how I'm looking at it. When I first got TOR about a month after it's release, I tried entering warzones with my friends and I just hit whatever abilities I felt like. Now of course, I was smart enough to use them situationally, like using a knockback to knock a huttball carrier off the platform or a stun to get away from someone. I understand when people are saying GW2 will require more situational use of the abilities, but ultimately all you're doing is at best a type of suped up version of this.

 

What I don't seem to find in GW2 is what I started to do in TOR when my skill improved, and when I got better: recognizing that depending on the spec I put together, my abilities existed for a reason. I didn't just spam Force Lightning, but I used it to set up Crushing Darkness. I didn't just spam tracer missile - it was meant to set up Heatseeker Missles, etc. From what I can tell, GW2 has absolutely nothing like this. They have signets, but those are a lot more like popping Force Potency or Illegal Mods than any kind of real proc or rotation.

 

To me, TOR's is much more mentally skilled. Sure, GW2 has dodge and equal gear and all of that, so fast-twitch muscle reaction time and even spatial recognition are going to be at somewhat of a higher premium than in TOR, but it doesn't seem like thinking about what I and my opponent and teammates are doing is going to be nearly as important. Yeah, they have combos, but that's really nothing more than saying, "Gee, my ally has DoTted him, I can use Rail Shot now" or "Oh, that Shadow pulled him into the Fire Pit let me go ahead and stun him."

 

It basically feels like everyone you're facing and you yourself are Marksmanship Snipers: a bunch of consistent abilities that don't change much with one or two that are harder and should be defensed if possible. Not much thinking other than that besides avoiding getting hit. In TOR, that means LoS, and in GW2, that means LoS + Dodge.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Skolops

[Skolops]

I stand corrected on the Transmutation Stone issue.

 

So nothing else I mentioned helped you? Or are you just finding a flaw and ignoring as soon think you see one?

 

It's not that what you said wouldn't necessarily be helpful for some people as that what you said did tell me a lot of things I already knew but didn't really address the question I had asked, apart from that I ought to play the game to see.

[Skolops]

The necromancer I played I used the Sceptre main hand and either focus or dagger for offhand. I think I used staff for my other weapon set. Anyway, I built him around abilities that caused bleeding and conditions. I would stack conditions on someone and then hit my nuke - Feast of Corruption - which added 8 percent damage per different condition. If he didn't cleanse his conditions or prevent me from casting Feast of Corruption he took a good amount of damage. Aside, from that by using certain abilities I gained "Lifeforce" which allowed me to use Death shroud ( gives a separate set of abilities only usable in that form ) that also acted as a defensive ability. I don't know about the other professions too much ( I do know engineers had some ability to reflect damage back at me that was pretty nasty so you didn't want to use a big nuke on him when he used that ) - I really liked my necro so that all I played. But within my profession that type of gameplay was there.

 

Hmmm... that's the closest thing I've found so far. What you describe is kindof like a Lethality Sniper. I've looked at a few other professions and hadn't found anything like that.

[Morrolan]

For example, take the Ranger with a longbow. As far as I can tell, Rapid Fire is going to do the exact same thing every single time it's used, no matter what was used before, no matter what traits are selected, no matter anything. What it does is "Fire multiple arrows at your foe." for 1060 damage and that's what it will always do. For an Elementalist with a Staff, Flame Burst does the same thing every time its used, no matter what. Nothing changes it, or procs it to behave any differently or any better, etc. etc. Of course, you can activate a Signet before attacking, but this will provide more of a general and flat boost to whatever you cast as opposed to something in TOR where you cast, for example, Force Lightning for a reason - it's meant to set something up. The same with Tracer Missile.

YOU ARE NOT LISTENING, COMBOS DO IT.

 

Plus I don't see a huge difference in swtor, you set 1 ability up with another but the effect is always the same, barring crits of course. Its not like there's anything particular dynamic happening, you just have to make sure you are in the position to do your set up.

[Skolops]

YOU ARE NOT LISTENING, COMBOS DO IT.

 

Plus I don't see a huge difference in swtor, you set 1 ability up with another but the effect is always the same, barring crits of course. Its not like there's anything particular dynamic happening, you just have to make sure you are in the position to do your set up.

 

Dude, calm down. If you haven't been paying attention, most of us are actually having a civilized discussion at this point - not to mention there has been only one mention of combos to this point by anyone besides myself and that in response I've already noted that combos exist and pointed out that I don't think they're really all that special.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Skolops

[Morrolan]

Dude, calm down. If you haven't been paying attention, most of us are actually having a civilized discussion at this point - not to mention there has been only one mention of combos to this point by anyone besides myself and that in response I've already noted that combos exist and pointed out that I don't think they're really all that special.

They do exactly what you're asking for, and better than in swtor.

[Skolops]

They do exactly what you're asking for, and better than in swtor.

 

I'm talking about a single player with a build and skills which work out to involve a certain degree of tactics in how they're used. You set don't just spam lightning whenever you feel like it, like soooo many bad sorcs we've all seen do. Rather, you use lightning to set up a proc, and you then act on that proc with one of two abilities depending on the situation, cooldowns, etc. In the meantime, you're also weaving in two other abilities to accomplish other things and to make those procced abilities better.

 

Combos in GW2 just means that one player lays down a field and another does an attack through it. It's cool, and different and could potentially be coordinated nicely, but it's not ultimately the same thing or even, honestly, as skilled. Sure, there will be some degree of skill in knowing when and where to employ these combos for the best effectiveness, but the same is true in TOR and other games. The primary difference here is really that there is a type of "AoE" element to it in GW2.

 

On the other hand, it seems like the individual player in GW2 is can really just use whatever skills he wants to whenever. Yes, there will be some decision making to use, but nothing that fancy I don't think. Rangers can use their knockback shot at certain times when they need or want distance, for example. Nothing special there. In general, like I said, a given skill really is always going to do the same thing, and there is no... ultimately there's no skill required to get that ability properly set up because there is not setup, and there's no skill required to really counter people because they aren't setting things up. It's all very, very reactionary it seems - dodging and cleansing when needed, trying to use control effects properly to get your hits in, etc. but in a very shallow way.

[Skolops]

They do exactly what you're asking for, and better than in swtor.

 

I just thought of a good way to do an example. I see you play a Powertech and an Operative.

 

I'm going to hope your PT is a Pyrotech and your Operative is Concealment, but even if they're not I trust you at least know how they work.

 

With your concealment operative, there's something you're trying to do to your opponent. You have a plan, and a way of attacking him which is going to make your damage effective. Now if he somehow interferes with that, it gets much harder for you.

 

With the pyrotech Powertech, you're trying to get Rail Shot to proc with flame bursts. It is your big damage dealer, it refreshes your DOTs, and it refunds heat. All around, its the way your spec works. Now, if I'm against you with my shadow, I might stun you after you flame burst or rocket punch and use that stun to get distance. This might mean that, by the time you're out of the stun I'm too far away to flame burst and you can't set your rail shot up. Or, maybe your rail shot proc times out through that stun and you can't use it on me. I could also pop my bubble when you're all set up for that rail shot, making you have to either waste it or let the proc time out. This would all hurt your ability to damage me in various degrees.

 

On the other hand, if I'm going against an Elementalist who wants to hit me with his nuke and I stun him or try to kite him... it doesn't really matter. He didn't have anything really set up for his nuke, it was just an ability he could cast because the cooldown was finished, and when the stun wears off or he catches up to me, he can still cast it.

 

Just so much less thinking, mental skill, and tactics in all of this as far as I can tell.

[Katsuragisama]

I'm still waiting for a response on my thought that TOR feels more skill based because in GW2 the abilities never change or buff based on traits, proc, or order of cast. (Which, btw, I am happy to be corrected on with an example, which is the primary reason I asked the question.)

 

Inc. Long Post.

 

I've watched a lot of Thief gameplay videos, so I've also been looking into the conditions, hopefully I can help translate some of the Ranger stuff based on situation.

 

Long Range Shot might be your primary damage skill. As far as I know every class uses a cooldown system except Thief, where as they have a resource system (like Force/Energy here), called Initiative. It does more damage the further away your target is, I'll make a note on that in a sec.

 

Rapid Fire, multiple errors at foes. You got a huge cluster**** infront of you, with a bunch of enemies standing around trying to fight your team mates? Might as well bombard them all with arrows if they're so dumb to get close together.

 

Hunter Shot, gives the target vulnerability, this is gonna make them take more damage from you, and your team mates.

 

Point Blank Shot hits them from close up and pushes them back, the closer they are, the further they're knocked back. The Long Range Shot does more there further away they are. That Warrior gotten a little to close for your comfort? Knock him back with point blank, and follow up with some long range shots for more damage. He steps closer, maybe do a quick dodge back to keep him at the edge of your range for maximum damage with long range shot. Or just switch to melee and bash his face in instead.

 

Barrage damages and inflicts cripple (snare). And yes if you watch they actually start limping, kind of hilarious. That warrior getting the best of you? Use this to cripple his has and kite him.

 

Then you have traits that make your conditions longer, do more damage, etc, etc. Maybe you want to have them crippled a little bit longer so you can kite better? Put some points in marksmanship to increase the duration.

 

Now unlike Thief you have a pet, and it seems like your pet will give you different combo fields to utilitze based on their abilities. Like a spider can make a poison gas. Now if you shoot your arrows (projectile finisher) and you will inflict poison on the target. Not only that but everyone else who shoots a projectile through your pets poison gas will inflict poison them. Which I'm assuming stacks in intesity.

 

I just looked into Ranger because you asked, but for Thief I'll try to give an example I'm thinking of.

 

Thief with Dagger/Pistol combo. Using your dual skill, Shadow Shot, you would shoot with your pistol first, shadow step in, and slice them with the dagger. Next, you have Black Powder, use that and cause blindness, which makes their next attack miss. It also creates a Combo Field: Smoke. If you use Heartseeker (Combo Finisher: Leap) and leap through that combo field, you will gain stealth. This allows you to maneuver behind them, and hit them with Backstab.

 

Or thief could just use different dual skills/stealth/shadowstep utility/bow's disabling shot that fires an arrow and makes you jump backwards, to mess with your opinion and slip in and out of range between mixing in melee and ranged attacks.

 

I hope that helped. It's not a set rotation, as someone else said if you start trying to do something predictiable like YoYo Saber, YoYo Saber, Shock, Force Breach, Shadow Strike, Twirling Saber then people are going to expect that right after the first YoYo Saber. Thus, they dodge backwards and out of your melee range and you're swinging at the wind.

[fungihoujo]

 

What I don't seem to find in GW2 is what I started to do in TOR when my skill improved, and when I got better: recognizing that depending on the spec I put together, my abilities existed for a reason. I didn't just spam Force Lightning, but I used it to set up Crushing Darkness. I didn't just spam tracer missile - it was meant to set up Heatseeker Missles, etc. From what I can tell, GW2 has absolutely nothing like this. They have signets, but those are a lot more like popping Force Potency or Illegal Mods than any kind of real proc or rotation.

.

 

So basically you're talking about procs. Procs are the lowest level of skill based ability use in the mmo world- they don't encourage skill, they say 'once you get a shiny light saying this ability is available, use it!'.

 

For them to require skill they'd have to actually have a reason to use or not use them- as is, on my PT I don't think I've ever NOT used rail shot when it procced- that's pretty much the entire point- use abilities that proc it until it procs, then use it, then rinse and repeat.

 

Rotations aren't skill- it's nothing more than repetition. It doesn't take skill to use a full buffed heatseeker, or rail shot, or instant CD- it just means waiting for a counter to max out or a proc to go off.

 

If GW2 was just a bunch of abilities thrown in, then yes- that would be pretty much the only thing even more simple than a proc based combat system like what TOR has- but trust me, if you think you can go into GW2 and just hit buttons and do well you're going to have an exceptionally hard time. GW2 they do not tell you which ability to use next like they do in SWTOR- you either have to do a lot of experimentation to figure out which abilities work best with which abilities, which buffs to use where and when, and what gear gives you the most bang for your buck- or read up guides from people who already did all that.

 

For the most part you don't have procs though...

 

 

That said- if you like procs, try the mesmer- just be warned that the skillcap on anything but an i-duelist build for knowing when to shatter is going to be downright frustrating until you get the hang of it. You want a very challenging ability system- that's it. (that said, there are also some good, simpler builds for many classes too- it's not all complex stuff)

Edited August 3, 2012 by fungihoujo

[marcusbjol]

This is what I'm not so sure about.

 

For example, take the Ranger with a longbow. As far as I can tell, Rapid Fire is going to do the exact same thing every single time it's used, no matter what was used before, no matter what traits are selected, no matter anything. What it does is "Fire multiple arrows at your foe." for 1060 damage and that's what it will always do.

Unless this is fired though a fire field.

For an Elementalist with a Staff, Flame Burst does the same thing every time its used, no matter what. Nothing changes it, or procs it to behave any differently or any better, etc. etc. Unless you Of course, you can activate a Signet before attacking, but this will provide more of a general and flat boost to whatever you cast as opposed to something in TOR where you cast, for example, Force Lightning for a reason - it's meant to set something up. The same with Tracer Missile.

Not necessarily. Yes, one can be specced to get a proc off of it, but either way, it is a "relatively" good attack.

 

Here's how I'm looking at it. When I first got TOR about a month after it's release, I tried entering warzones with my friends and I just hit whatever abilities I felt like. Now of course, I was smart enough to use them situationally, like using a knockback to knock a huttball carrier off the platform or a stun to get away from someone. I understand when people are saying GW2 will require more situational use of the abilities, but ultimately all you're doing is at best a type of suped up version of this.

 

What I don't seem to find in GW2 is what I started to do in TOR when my skill improved, and when I got better: recognizing that depending on the spec I put together, my abilities existed for a reason. I didn't just spam Force Lightning, but I used it to set up Crushing Darkness. I didn't just spam tracer missile - it was meant to set up Heatseeker Missles, etc. From what I can tell, GW2 has absolutely nothing like this. They have signets, but those are a lot more like popping Force Potency or Illegal Mods than any kind of real proc or rotation.

 

To me, TOR's is much more mentally skilled. Sure, GW2 has dodge and equal gear and all of that, so fast-twitch muscle reaction time and even spatial recognition are going to be at somewhat of a higher premium than in TOR, but it doesn't seem like thinking about what I and my opponent and teammates are doing is going to be nearly as important. Yeah, they have combos, but that's really nothing more than saying, "Gee, my ally has DoTted him, I can use Rail Shot now" or "Oh, that Shadow pulled him into the Fire Pit let me go ahead and stun him."

 

It basically feels like everyone you're facing and you yourself are Marksmanship Snipers: a bunch of consistent abilities that don't change much with one or two that are harder and should be defensed if possible. Not much thinking other than that besides avoiding getting hit. In TOR, that means LoS, and in GW2, that means LoS + Dodge.

 

I find in practice, there is no real "mental" component in SWToR that is different than GW2. Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your enemies and teammates will take time to learn. Once cannot assume anything about a toon based on class alone. There are a great many variations available, given the optional abilities assigned and talent system. Why did that ranger go left instead of right... crap to line up me and a teammate with his piercing arrows.

 

No.. one cannot assume a class is one of 3 different cookie cutter specs (really what there is in SWToR's PvP).

[Katsuragisama]

So basically you're talking about procs. Procs are the lowest level of skill based ability use in the mmo world- they don't encourage skill, they say 'once you get a shiny light saying this ability is available, use it!'.

 

Aye! Also read what I said on the previous page. Since I plan on playing a Thief, at some point I'm probably going to just mess with someone at some point. If a warrior is beating my face in, I'm gonna switch to my bow and back off for a bit. Arrow after arrow until he realizes I'm not stepping within his reach, so he switches to bow. I see one shot, I switch to daggers, dodge it.

 

Now he's switched to bow, and it would suck for me to be up close to him, so why not? Use my steal ability after switching to daggers, and shadow step to melee range. Now I'm still setting the pace for the battle as he's got to adapt to my change of weapon, and the change in the range/melee, so he has to switch back to his sword or whatever, while I'm already up close to him.

 

Or, in theory thats what I'm thinking. Sounds pretty logical that something like this should work. O.o

 

Edit to add:

 

I find in practice, there is no real "mental" component in SWToR that is different than GW2. Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your enemies and teammates will take time to learn. Once cannot assume anything about a toon based on class alone. There are a great many variations available, given the optional abilities assigned and talent system. Why did that ranger go left instead of right... crap to line up me and a teammate with his piercing arrows.

 

This^. Everyone is going to use different weapon sets, traits, utilities, different healing ability, different elite ability, based on their own personal play style and what they feel synergizes with that and how they want to play.

 

Some thieves might like sword/dagger, dagger/dagger, hell even pistol/pistol. Some might go straight DPS or make you bleed to death. Some might go for more health and have their poisons regenerate their health to make them more tanky, some might just play a support role using stealth and inflict conditions to help their allies deal more damage instead of doing pure DPS themselves. Choices, they're awesome.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[Skolops]

Inc. Long Post.

 

I've watched a lot of Thief gameplay videos, so I've also been looking into the conditions, hopefully I can help translate some of the Ranger stuff based on situation.

 

Long Range Shot might be your primary damage skill. As far as I know every class uses a cooldown system except Thief, where as they have a resource system (like Force/Energy here), called Initiative. It does more damage the further away your target is, I'll make a note on that in a sec.

 

Rapid Fire, multiple errors at foes. You got a huge cluster**** infront of you, with a bunch of enemies standing around trying to fight your team mates? Might as well bombard them all with arrows if they're so dumb to get close together.

 

Hunter Shot, gives the target vulnerability, this is gonna make them take more damage from you, and your team mates.

 

Point Blank Shot hits them from close up and pushes them back, the closer they are, the further they're knocked back. The Long Range Shot does more there further away they are. That Warrior gotten a little to close for your comfort? Knock him back with point blank, and follow up with some long range shots for more damage. He steps closer, maybe do a quick dodge back to keep him at the edge of your range for maximum damage with long range shot. Or just switch to melee and bash his face in instead.

 

Barrage damages and inflicts cripple (snare). And yes if you watch they actually start limping, kind of hilarious. That warrior getting the best of you? Use this to cripple his has and kite him.

 

Then you have traits that make your conditions longer, do more damage, etc, etc. Maybe you want to have them crippled a little bit longer so you can kite better? Put some points in marksmanship to increase the duration.

 

Now unlike Thief you have a pet, and it seems like your pet will give you different combo fields to utilitze based on their abilities. Like a spider can make a poison gas. Now if you shoot your arrows (projectile finisher) and you will inflict poison on the target. Not only that but everyone else who shoots a projectile through your pets poison gas will inflict poison them. Which I'm assuming stacks in intesity.

 

I just looked into Ranger because you asked, but for Thief I'll try to give an example I'm thinking of.

 

Thief with Dagger/Pistol combo. Using your dual skill, Shadow Shot, you would shoot with your pistol first, shadow step in, and slice them with the dagger. Next, you have Black Powder, use that and cause blindness, which makes their next attack miss. It also creates a Combo Field: Smoke. If you use Heartseeker (Combo Finisher: Leap) and leap through that combo field, you will gain stealth. This allows you to maneuver behind them, and hit them with Backstab.

 

Or thief could just use different dual skills/stealth/shadowstep utility/bow's disabling shot that fires an arrow and makes you jump backwards, to mess with your opinion and slip in and out of range between mixing in melee and ranged attacks.

 

I hope that helped. It's not a set rotation, as someone else said if you start trying to do something predictiable like YoYo Saber, YoYo Saber, Shock, Force Breach, Shadow Strike, Twirling Saber then people are going to expect that right after the first YoYo Saber. Thus, they dodge backwards and out of your melee range and you're swinging at the wind.

 

Thanks a lot for that. Definitely not the same thing, but at least somewhat more mentally engaging then things seemed.

[Skolops]

So basically you're talking about procs. Procs are the lowest level of skill based ability use in the mmo world- they don't encourage skill, they say 'once you get a shiny light saying this ability is available, use it!'.

 

For them to require skill they'd have to actually have a reason to use or not use them- as is, on my PT I don't think I've ever NOT used rail shot when it procced- that's pretty much the entire point- use abilities that proc it until it procs, then use it, then rinse and repeat.

 

Rotations aren't skill- it's nothing more than repetition. It doesn't take skill to use a full buffed heatseeker, or rail shot, or instant CD- it just means waiting for a counter to max out or a proc to go off.

 

If GW2 was just a bunch of abilities thrown in, then yes- that would be pretty much the only thing even more simple than a proc based combat system like what TOR has- but trust me, if you think you can go into GW2 and just hit buttons and do well you're going to have an exceptionally hard time. GW2 they do not tell you which ability to use next like they do in SWTOR- you either have to do a lot of experimentation to figure out which abilities work best with which abilities, which buffs to use where and when, and what gear gives you the most bang for your buck- or read up guides from people who already did all that.

 

For the most part you don't have procs though...

 

 

That said- if you like procs, try the mesmer- just be warned that the skillcap on anything but an i-duelist build for knowing when to shatter is going to be downright frustrating until you get the hang of it. You want a very challenging ability system- that's it. (that said, there are also some good, simpler builds for many classes too- it's not all complex stuff)

 

How do you, say, deal with it on the other side, then? Obviously this is a hard question to answer given the sheer number of different possible builds/weapon choices/etc. one might face, but even one example would be good.

 

So, say I am fighting a Rage Juggernaut. I know I need to interrupt his Force Choke to keep his stacks down. I also know that if he leaps to me, I need to knock him back, stun him, pop a defensive cooldown, or something because he is about to Smash me.

 

Now in GW2, if anyone can really use anything at any time, how does one go about defending against another player?

[Katsuragisama]

How do you, say, deal with it on the other side, then? Obviously this is a hard question to answer given the sheer number of different possible builds/weapon choices/etc. one might face, but even one example would be good.

 

So, say I am fighting a Rage Juggernaut. I know I need to interrupt his Force Choke to keep his stacks down. I also know that if he leaps to me, I need to knock him back, stun him, pop a defensive cooldown, or something because he is about to Smash me.

 

Now in GW2, if anyone can really use anything at any time, how does one go about defending against another player?

 

Dodge is going to be your best friend, as if an attack is coming at you during those frames it will count as an evade, but you cant spam it as it uses the Endurance resource. Certain things also inflict weakness which cause them to do like 50% less damage. I just pointed out Point Blank Shot for a knock back. Not to mention Chill effect causes them to move like 66% more slower (snare) and their abilities recharge 66% slower as well. Also some things stun the target, like Thief's basilisk poison. As for anything else beyond that for CC, I'm not sure.

 

Edit to add: If you look at a ranger's attacks with a great sword, your first skill is Slash. Which just does damage, but once you use it, it turns to slice, which again just does damage. But once you use Slice your 1st skill slot turns to Power Stab, which does more damage and you evade as you execute it. So you basically dodge their attack while hitting them.

 

Thief has a move like this where they spin around to the back of the foe, and stab them twice in the back, evading while they do so. So that would be a good way to counter a slow attack as well if you time it right.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[marcusbjol]

How do you, say, deal with it on the other side, then? Obviously this is a hard question to answer given the sheer number of different possible builds/weapon choices/etc. one might face, but even one example would be good.

 

So, say I am fighting a Rage Juggernaut. I know I need to interrupt his Force Choke to keep his stacks down. I also know that if he leaps to me, I need to knock him back, stun him, pop a defensive cooldown, or something because he is about to Smash me.

 

Now in GW2, if anyone can really use anything at any time, how does one go about defending against another player?

Depends

 

There is the roll. Beyond that, it depends on the weapons/abilities selected. Off the top of my head, as I will be playing a guardian, Shield of Judgement (damages and gives the Boon Protection (33% damage reduction) or Shield of Absorbtion (Knockback and Ranged protection).

[Skolops]

Both of those responses were nice in that they listed defensive abilities and options, but I'm curious how, without there being rotations, you can know when to use those options, and which ones to use.

 

For example, the double YoYo saber from an Assassin means pop resilience for a Shadow. A Pyrotech flamebursting means pop deflection bubble.

 

Etc.

[Katsuragisama]

Both of those responses were nice in that they listed defensive abilities and options, but I'm curious how, without there being rotations, you can know when to use those options, and which ones to use.

 

For example, the double YoYo saber from an Assassin means pop resilience for a Shadow. A Pyrotech flamebursting means pop deflection bubble.

 

Etc.

 

You dont, and that's the beauty of it. It's going to come down to what you predict your opponent will do, and how to counter it. Is he about to charge at you and knock you down? Maybe you should have your pet immobilze (root) them. It's not like WoW/Rift/SW:TOR where even if you stand still, they can still miss. It's determined by if they are actually in range to hit you. The combat style is action, not RPG. You dont have like a 50% dodge rate. You just better move your *** out of the way.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[fungihoujo]

How do you, say, deal with it on the other side, then? Obviously this is a hard question to answer given the sheer number of different possible builds/weapon choices/etc. one might face, but even one example would be good.

 

So, say I am fighting a Rage Juggernaut. I know I need to interrupt his Force Choke to keep his stacks down. I also know that if he leaps to me, I need to knock him back, stun him, pop a defensive cooldown, or something because he is about to Smash me.

 

Now in GW2, if anyone can really use anything at any time, how does one go about defending against another player?

 

You have to adapt in battle- and of course, there's going to be build up abilities you'll want to dive out of the way of. It'll take a great deal of play to learn all the abilities- but in the end, with knowing the game you'll eventually figure out what to look out for.

 

Big difference is- the counter won't be as simple as hitting interrupt on that merc's TM. Counters and not being countered will require more thinking- such as using an immobilize or stun before your big attack, but that also warns the enemy that it is coming- so maybe using that big attack out of a combo will catch them off guard.

 

It's different from SWTOR- where you know when to expect the avoidable ones- like jugg smash. Or the big hitters have an immobilize on them, like carnage ravage. Or they simply aren't avoidable- like most abilities, but to use an example- you cannot dodge or prevent a rail shot/det/lucky proc rail shot combo that'll swipe away over half your health- if I want to get that combo off on my PT I will, and stunning me only delays it a few seconds.

 

Dodging someone mid cast or throwing your blind or block up in GW2 though wastes the cast- in SWTOR, the only things that really do that are interrupts and the marauder blind- the interrupts which are pretty much only useful against ranged/healers (hence why ranged and healers are in such bad shape right now), and the blind is only used by one class.

 

Also- due to length of abilities like the block or CD on the roll- you have to make that count- it's not a simple 'get low, people on me- undying rage', you have to use it specifically to counter a big wind up ability- meaning you need to predict, and react very well, mixing strategy and twitch together in the gameplay.

[Katsuragisama]

One thing I can think of was when I was watching a person play a mesmer, and there was a thief that attacked him. The mesmer didnt know it at the time but the thief was built for the highest burst they could achieve, especially with backstab. The thief used steal to get close and shadow step within melee range. Hit Cloak and Dagger to do damage and go into stealth, followed up by a back stab.

 

The mesmer's health went from 19k, 14k, 11k, DEAD. The damage showed like a bit of damage from a traited steal (Mug), like 5k from cloak and dagger, a bit of damage from poison, and an overkill backstab for 15k. For this, the thief sacrificed all of his survivability, and went pure damage.

 

Mesmer sees the same thief in the next sPvP. The mesmer uses some range attacks, and hits the thief for a little below 4k, thief dropped like 1/3 or 1/4 of his health, so he clearly has like 12k-16k health, and no defense. Thief tries to pull the same combo again. Shadow step in, go stealth, backstab. Though he couldnt see him the mesmer expected this, and dodged the backstab at the perfect time. The thief came out of stealth and the mesmer's illusions destroyed the thief, while the mesmer still had all of his health left, was pretty hilarious.

 

Edit to add: Well said fungi, more detail than I felt like going into. Lol@ 'get low, people on me- undying rage' XD

Edited August 3, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[Boozed]

I can't even log into SWTOR anymore let alone queue for WZs, GW2 has ruined me. 3 more weeks

[Fyda]

I can't even log into SWTOR anymore let alone queue for WZs, GW2 has ruined me. 3 more weeks

 

I resubbed and rushed to 40 to go do some PvP. I got sick after 3 Warzones

[Archaar]

I can't even log into SWTOR anymore let alone queue for WZs, GW2 has ruined me. 3 more weeks

 

Same for me too, I just cannot think of a reason why I would log into swtor.

 

I keep thinking back to the midweek stress test, when I was in WvWvW and we were *trying* to take stonemist. I had some amazing fights on the walls of the keep once we'd mashed the main gate in with 2 siege golems There was one warrior who was trying to 100 blades me, I absolutely love dodge rolling out of big attacks and them promptly handing someone there backside.

 

I could log into swtor and play my merc, spend a few hours doing the same 4 warzones and spend the entire time trying to hide from OP Marauders/Juggs/Powertechs that all kill me with ease lol or spen the entire time cursing my computer screen cos I am constantly, stunned, mezzed, rooted, knocked back, knocked down pulled and pushed all over the warzone, yeah that's fun.

 

Roll on headstart!!

Edited August 4, 2012 by Archaar

[Fyda]

I defended with a mate a small keep against 40+ people. We only had a cannon and a arrow cart. It was GLORIOUS! Of course we died in the end but we took a lot of them. Valhalla awaited us with open doors. Edited August 4, 2012 by Fyda