Soooo.. GW2 is coming and you do nothing to keep the PvP-Players here?

[Skolops]

There are alot more games that just GW2 coming out. I already unsubbed because PvP in this game is an epic fail.. If you are a carebear, stunfest, zergfest ,no skill requred PvP fan, then this is the perfect game for you. The poster makes good points and at least makes an effort to wake Bio up. Clearly Bio is clueless. Look forward to more server merges in the near future.

 

Not sure what carebearing has to do with it.

 

There is a bit too much CC at times, but its a lot better if you know how to deal with it, and honestly the team you're on has a lot to do with it - which is something people very, very often miss. if you're on a bad team, you'll feel like you're CCEd the entire game, because you'll very very often end up fighting the opponents as the only or one of only 2 or 3 people in a battle against 6 or 7 - the rest of your bad team being either dead or off in some stupid place. If you're on a good or even competent team, you'll feel like you have freedom to move around and do far, far more, because, while you'll be CCed here and there, by and large their CCs need to be spread around. It also makes a huge difference to have healers, because they keep you up through the CCs and then you get to fight on once the other teams' CCs are used up. Without healers, you'll often fight, be CCed, die, respawn, and go back only to have all their CCs back up again. From what I've seen, I also think GW2 is going to have a lack of CCs, making the game more flowing but lacking a certain type of strategy that I enjoy - evn if other strategic elements are present.

 

This brings me to another point: I think the single biggest thing hurting SWtOR PvP is bad players. Sometimes, when I'm playing at a time of day where the mix of players that's on is just not good and maybe even the other faction has some of their good players on and you know what? It feels exactly like you describe: constant chain CC, zerging all over, etc. etc., and I really feel like its bad PvP, and its not fun.

 

Then, there are other times when I play and there are good players on, or at least average ones, and the matches are between teams of equal skill and sometimes my team outskills the other team, and it feels like really good, fun, skill oriented PvP. Sure, there are CCs, but you only have one on you here and there, and they aren't that bad, and they feel downright strategic. As I read these forums, I really can't help but think that or at least wonder whether the people who complain about these things tend to be on servers and factions with a skill disadvantage and they end up in these bad games too often.

 

The thing is, it really isn't going to get better in GW2. If anything, I think it's going to get worse, because there are a TON of people who, at least at launch, will be jumping on GW2, and there are going to be a ton of bads. Heck, on these forums literally 80% of the people who say they're going to GW2 because of X, Y, and Z problem in SWtOR PvP demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of very basic TOR and class mechanics in their posts, and GW2 is going to be FLOODED with these people.

[Skolops]

Your analogy fails. If only because you're not asking "What type of sound are we looking for?". There's a reason why Honky Tonk exists and it isn't merely the stress on rhythm or connection to ragtime.

 

People are really stretching to avoid the strength of this argument. Yes, honky tonk exists, but if you're auditioning for a Philharmonic Orchestra and you've got a bad trumpet, you're at a huge disadvantage. We could also extend things beyond music. If I'm applying for a job as one of those "school-bus" type things where you use your own car with the sign stuck on top, I'll be at a huge advantage with a newer, higher safety rated van that seats 8 over a person with an older 5 seat sedan that's in bad shape.

 

The equipment we own will always give us an advantage or disadvantage over others - the difference is that, at least in a game, everyone can get access to the same equipment.

[Scritchy]

There is a bit too much CC at times, but its a lot better if you know how to deal with it, and honestly the team you're on has a lot to do with it - which is something people very, very often miss. if you're on a bad team, you'll feel like you're CCEd the entire game, because you'll very very often end up fighting the opponents as the only or one of only 2 or 3 people in a battle against 6 or 7 - the rest of your bad team being either dead or off in some stupid place. If you're on a good or even competent team, you'll feel like you have freedom to move around and do far, far more, because, while you'll be CCed here and there, by and large their CCs need to be spread around. It also makes a huge difference to have healers, because they keep you up through the CCs and then you get to fight on once the other teams' CCs are used up. Without healers, you'll often fight, be CCed, die, respawn, and go back only to have all their CCs back up again. From what I've seen, I also think GW2 is going to have a lack of CCs, making the game more flowing but lacking a certain type of strategy that I enjoy - evn if other strategic elements are present.

Being on a good team doesn't prevent the massive amounts of snares or roots. Healers are too busy healing and cleansing DOTs and stuns to be able to concentrate on keeping roots/snares off one person (unless they are the ball carrier in Huttball). You might be able to move, but the freedom sure isn't there, especially with the AE snares.

[AlyxDinas]

People are really stretching to avoid the strength of this argument.

 

I was merely commenting on your analogy. Not your argument itself. If you don't want people to critique your speech, then speak well.

[RobNightfall]

Not sure what carebearing has to do with it.

 

This brings me to another point: I think the single biggest thing hurting SWtOR PvP is bad players. Sometimes, when I'm playing at a time of day where the mix of players that's on is just not good and maybe even the other faction has some of their good players on and you know what? It feels exactly like you describe: constant chain CC, zerging all over, etc. etc., and I really feel like its bad PvP, and its not fun.

 

Then, there are other times when I play and there are good players on, or at least average ones, and the matches are between teams of equal skill and sometimes my team outskills the other team, and it feels like really good, fun, skill oriented PvP. Sure, there are CCs, but you only have one on you here and there, and they aren't that bad, and they feel downright strategic. As I read these forums, I really can't help but think that or at least wonder whether the people who complain about these things tend to be on servers and factions with a skill disadvantage and they end up in these bad games too often.

 

The thing is, it really isn't going to get better in GW2. If anything, I think it's going to get worse, because there are a TON of people who, at least at launch, will be jumping on GW2, and there are going to be a ton of bads. Heck, on these forums literally 80% of the people who say they're going to GW2 because of X, Y, and Z problem in SWtOR PvP demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of very basic TOR and class mechanics in their posts, and GW2 is going to be FLOODED with these people.

 

The single biggest thing hurting SWTOR PvP is not bad players. The piss poor game engine and the problems it causes including the lack of variety in places to PvP because of that engine, the inability to set up large scale battles if you want them because of the aforementioned crappy game engine, and the staggering number of bugs because of said lousy game engine, is the single biggest problem with SWTOR PvP. I can cope with bad players (in my opinion PvE largely exists as an escape for days in which you can't find a good PvP group), but the misery caused by the game engine is inexcusable.

[Skolops]

Being on a good team doesn't prevent the massive amounts of snares or roots. Healers are too busy healing and cleansing DOTs and stuns to be able to concentrate on keeping roots/snares off one person (unless they are the ball carrier in Huttball). You might be able to move, but the freedom sure isn't there, especially with the AE snares.

 

Being on a good team makes a huge difference, because it means you aren't fighting 1 or 2 on 6 or 7 half the time and having multiple players' worth of CCs focused on a single target.

 

I can honestly say that I've never noticed CCs being a huge, fun draining problem when on good teams, even when the opponent is also a good team.

[Skolops]

The single biggest thing hurting SWTOR PvP is not bad players. The piss poor game engine and the problems it causes including the lack of variety in places to PvP because of that engine, the inability to set up large scale battles if you want them because of the aforementioned crappy game engine, and the staggering number of bugs because of said lousy game engine, is the single biggest problem with SWTOR PvP. I can cope with bad players (in my opinion PvE largely exists as an escape for days in which you can't find a good PvP group), but the misery caused by the game engine is inexcusable.

 

I hardly notice very many bugs these days, and I really don't enjoy large scale PvP, so it doesn't bother me. This goes back to my original point that those the most excited about and likely to go to GW2 are those who are craving large scale world PvP.

[Skolops]

I was merely commenting on your analogy. Not your argument itself. If you don't want people to critique your speech, then speak well.

 

You still haven't made a point against my argument, and accusations of poor speech in bad grammar won't accomplish anything.

 

Seriously, though, my point stands: there's nothing wrong with having a tiered gear system wherein everyone has access to the same gear. It's better than GW2 pay to win open world PvP system.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Skolops

[Morrolan]

The thing is, it really isn't going to get better in GW2. If anything, I think it's going to get worse, because there are a TON of people who, at least at launch, will be jumping on GW2, and there are going to be a ton of bads.

Don't think so because you're less reliant on other players for support.

[Skolops]

Don't think so because you're less reliant on other players for support.

 

Actually, this point is concerning me even more after having just been watching random videos from the beta weekend and ended up on one showing the final bits of some WvW from one of the beta weekends in which the people doing the stream were raving about how the had completely dominated the other groups and were the best.

 

I then noticed that this video is from a particular guild, which happens to be THE worst PvP guild I have ever come across in all my time playing SWtOR. I won't mention names or provide a link so as to avoid inciting any kind of flame wars or otherwise violating any forum rules, but suffice it to say they were a zerg recruiting guild which were the absolute joke of the server - everyone knew how bad they were and spent half the time talking about it. Now it seems to me that in something like the WvW in GW2, a guild like this could be very, very successful because of the sheer numbers they will be able to put forth.

 

I really don't want to live in a world where a guild like this one even close to the best at anything, and insofar as the mechanics present in GW2 provide for this it's exactly the kind of thing I fear.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Skolops

[Kurfer]

I might try it 3 months after release when it's sitting in the bargain bin at Walmart like the first one. Every pvp video of the game I watched looked very boring and just "plain". I'll stick with my current bargain bin game, its fun!

 

It's going to disappoint people, no game in history had this much hype and met expectations.

[Katsuragisama]

There is a bit too much CC at times, but its a lot better if you know how to deal with it, and honestly the team you're on has a lot to do with it - which is something people very, very often miss.

 

Gonna actually have to agree with with Skolops on this. During Huttball for example, I'm gonna force speed up to the ball, shroud to stop any stuns, and grab the ball for my team. The bad players on the other team, are going to be the ones who both stun me back to back. Now, I have full resolve. So just a simple CC break and walk right to the goal line.

 

Then you really notice when the bads are on your team. Their the ones that stun lock when the ball carrier is not in immediate danger (on a catwalk but not over the fire, or not being focused down) a good stun during that time means they cant pass the ball and die, so your team gets it. But if you stun anywhere before that, you just wasted your stun and gave them full resolve. Now they can just trollolol along to the goal line and theres nothing you can do about it.

 

On the other view point, you, yourself could be running the ball and get stunned. But if you have no one to pass to because the other 7 people on your team are off trying to play deathmatch in an objective based game, you're going to die. The enemy team is going to get the ball while the rest of their team kills all of the bads on yours. Now they have a sage running into position to pull, the bads stun the ball carrier giving him/her full resolve. The sage pulls the ball carrier to the cat walk, and once again they just simply walk into the goal line.

 

The piss poor game engine and the problems it causes including the lack of variety in places to PvP because of that engine, the inability to set up large scale battles if you want them because of the aforementioned crappy game engine, and the staggering number of bugs because of said lousy game engine,

 

Theres that too, as thats why we no longer have Ilum. Crappy engine + crappy players = crappy PvP. O.o

 

Seriously, though, my point stands: there's nothing wrong with having a tiered gear system wherein everyone has access to the same gear. It's better than GW2 pay to win open world PvP system.

 

...Not sure how you see GW2 as pay2win, if you've looked at there cashshop. Also, some of us are just tired of the gear grind for a little bit. I know in another thread when I said I was just tired of it, you said I just want everything handed to me. Not true. I'll work for my PVP gear like anyone else. I took my assbeatings when I was a fresh 50, got 2 sets of BM gear, and then WH came out. I had to get 2 sets of BM gear because BioWare decided that you needed to have the original mods or else yours wont get upgraded.

 

Along with that now if you really want to min/max with WH gear, you have to get 2 sets because none of the pieces of gear have all of the best mods/enhancements on just one piece. And right I'm a little bit tired of the gear grind. Having everything handed to me would be boring. I like a challenge, not that spending countless hours running the same 4 WZs repeatedly is a challenge either. Just doing it so much becomes a tedious chore.

 

PS: Also there have been some bads I've seen even when they have BM gear. I've seen one bad who had BM gear but had a R90 Valor Warlord, and she was still the worst sorc any of us have ever seen. People like this who want that gear crutch but still fail... Sure they'll try GW2, but unless they actually want to try to improve skill wise instead of gear wise, they'll come back to SWTOR.

[Derian]

Being on a good team makes a huge difference, because it means you aren't fighting 1 or 2 on 6 or 7 half the time and having multiple players' worth of CCs focused on a single target.

 

I can honestly say that I've never noticed CCs being a huge, fun draining problem when on good teams, even when the opponent is also a good team.

 

Same. I've played Sentinel since August. At first CC was an issue but then as I got better, and especially learned the resolve system, I "noticed" being CC'd less. I look forward to it now. Everytime someone stuns me in a stupid situation, it means I'm that much closer to full resolve.

 

If a team is using too much CC against you, it's a detriment to that team, as objectives are much easier to attain when you hav epeople on your team constantly with full resolve. CC should only be used sparingly. As a Sentinel I don't have much CC so I am very stingy with what I have. I never use it unless it's a must use situation. I cringe when people CC ball carriers in huttball, outside of fire traps, and especially when they daze the ball carrier. Why the hell would you daze a ballcarrier? You want to kill them, obviously it's going to break extremely quickly. GG you just gave them like 400-800 resolve for nothing.

[fungihoujo]

This brings me to another point: I think the single biggest thing hurting SWtOR PvP is bad players. .

 

And you are wrong. Many of the most played pvp games out there are also among the most widely considered competitive ones- not only is SWTOR pvp famous for having one of the most massive drops in pvp activity after a specific patch in mmo gaming history (losing 25% of their subs in a month following 1.2), but no competitive pvp guilds recognize it and nobody considers it worthy of becoming a tournament game.

 

There's numerous problems- it vastly favours certain classes, which has alienated bad AND good players of several classes entirely from playing the game- why play a gimp class in this game when you can play a good one in another?

 

It vastly favours huge time sinks- with WH gear being a 300+ hour grind. This favours only one group- the group who can't pvp without an advantage over the majority of players. Good players with guilds or lots of time generally find it either pointless- since they can beat bads whether or not they have equal gear- or find it boring... because it is even less challenging to fight bad players when they're also handicapped by huge gear gaps. Casuals, which generally is the majority of players but for SWTOR the game was catered specifically to casuals- hate huge gear grinds because they will never have equal gear and thus never pvp on equal terms- someone who plays 1-2 hours a day and does multiple things other than pvp (so, a typical casual) is never going to have the best pvp gear before a new set comes out.

 

So- basically, the current gear system is popular with almost nobody- and that's a fact that's pretty clear when you see that even the people who defend the gear system refuse to say anything good about it- instead saying 'you need to WORK for it' and 'we SUFFERED through getting it, so you should to'- when did games become work and suffering?!

 

Compare that to more logical gear systems- where you instead play to earn cosmetic things like mounts, pets, titles, cool looking gear that isn't any better, etc.... and you have a time sink, but you also have it so anyone can pick up the game and stand a chance.

 

That aside- you have 4 WZ maps, 3 of which are almost the same, two of those are built to be painful stalemates almost every time, and the final is more like a strategic game of chess than actual pvp- as unique as huttball is. There's no variety, there's no open world pvp or space pvp, and there's no other creative WZs. There's nothing to mix pve and pvp like Alterac Valley did or keep sieges. There's not even death matches for those who are pissed off at how tedious VS and Alderaan tend to be with a decent match up.

 

Speaking of match ups- no ranked for casual players, despite that being promised, and the ranked that is in has no match making system- you have teams with a 80% losing ratio facing teams that have 200 wins and no losses- obviously RWZ is going to flop.

 

That doesn't even get into the obvious class imbalances- which if you've played the best and worst classes both at 50 you would have to be retarded not to notice them.

 

It all comes down to this game catering only to people with lots of time, who aren't very good and need gear as a crutch, who are playing one of the overpowered classes, and know if they go play a game like GW2 where everyone has equal access to gear they will be destroyed. Without the huge time sink requirement and the fact that BW nerfed the crap out of the most played classes early on this game might be successful- not competitve, but successful. As is, this game's not competitive, it's not successful, it's not recognized, and it's losing subs faster than you can say 'patch 1.2 was TOR's NGE'.

 

Hate to burst your bubble- but every game is packed with bad players, if that was honestly the problem, it would be one that every game has, and every game would maintain their sub numbers of almost 2 million until a very specific patch before dropping like a rock in the ocean at 1.2- you can say that 1.2 wasn't a problem, that it made the game better, etc.... but good games don't do that.

 

Problem's clearly BW's, and the lost subs are going to be their problem when they have to report their mmo that could have easily kept over 1.5 million subs for a long time is dropping to 300k after the 6 month subs are up, and is still losing subs.

 

We aren't talking mmo hoppers that are leaving either- we're talking those who bought 6 month subs, loyal fans, former biodrones, SW lovers, people who have been waiting for this game for years, people who have been trying their hardest to like this game no matter what. For what? BW doesn't communicate, when they do it's snarky comments, answering questions we already know the answer to and saying 'metrics said so' as if that's a real response. They haven't responded to the changes that caused the sub drop, they haven't addressed features that were promised and are nowhere in sight- including features like world pvp that were in but got taken out and are now coming "soon".

 

There's less than 3 weeks now before 3/6 months run out- these are BW's more loyal fans, who before 1.2 saw a game they wanted to play, and would have played for years- but are now not playing, and just waiting for their subs to run out- yet BW isn't even acknowledging that, like they don't care at all if the game becomes a ghost town.

[Raggok]

It's pretty simple actually.

 

If you mouseclick abilities and have slow reactions then play SWTOR since gear makes a difference and can carry you. If you don't mouseclick abilities and have quick reactions then play GW2 since gear has no effect on outcomes in sPvP.

[Skolops]

=

...Not sure how you see GW2 as pay2win, if you've looked at there cashshop. Also, some of us are just tired of the gear grind for a little bit. I know in another thread when I said I was just tired of it, you said I just want everything handed to me. Not true. I'll work for my PVP gear like anyone else. I took my assbeatings when I was a fresh 50, got 2 sets of BM gear, and then WH came out. I had to get 2 sets of BM gear because BioWare decided that you needed to have the original mods or else yours wont get upgraded.

 

You can buy buffs for your guild in WvW.

[DCVAN]

You can buy buffs for your guild in WvW.

 

WvW will be fun every now and then, but sPvP is where the competitive players will be imo. Let's just hope arenanet delivers on their promise to bring in new maps and gametypes.

[Skolops]

And you are wrong. Many of the most played pvp games out there are also among the most widely considered competitive ones- not only is SWTOR pvp famous for having one of the most massive drops in pvp activity after a specific patch in mmo gaming history (losing 25% of their subs in a month following 1.2), but no competitive pvp guilds recognize it and nobody considers it worthy of becoming a tournament game.

 

There's numerous problems- it vastly favours certain classes, which has alienated bad AND good players of several classes entirely from playing the game- why play a gimp class in this game when you can play a good one in another?

 

Bads think it favors certain classes. Good players do just fine with their classes, whatever they are. I remember how bad sorc healing was supposed to be after 1.2, yet the amazing Sorc healer on my server who was virtually unkillable was still virtually unkillable after, and his team didn't start dropping like flies either.

 

It vastly favours huge time sinks- with WH gear being a 300+ hour grind. This favours only one group- the group who can't pvp without an advantage over the majority of players. Good players with guilds or lots of time generally find it either pointless- since they can beat bads whether or not they have equal gear- or find it boring... because it is even less challenging to fight bad players when they're also handicapped by huge gear gaps. Casuals, which generally is the majority of players but for SWTOR the game was catered specifically to casuals- hate huge gear grinds because they will never have equal gear and thus never pvp on equal terms- someone who plays 1-2 hours a day and does multiple things other than pvp (so, a typical casual) is never going to have the best pvp gear before a new set comes out.

 

You seem to be conceding my point: gear grinding isn't a problem, because those players with skill don't really need it to compete. Those skilled, good players don't really need the top of the line, best gear to succeed, and can just hop into PvP and do well. So why all the hype about GW2's bolstering, then? Which brings me too a later point...

 

So- basically, the current gear system is popular with almost nobody- and that's a fact that's pretty clear when you see that even the people who defend the gear system refuse to say anything good about it- instead saying 'you need to WORK for it' and 'we SUFFERED through getting it, so you should to'- when did games become work and suffering?!

 

Nonsense. I've said consistently that I like it. Just because some have compared it to suffering, doesn't mean all do or have. I like playing a whole bunch of warzones and getting a shiny new piece of gear at the end. It adds a goal, a carrot on a stick - something that has been overwhelmingly evidenced to be important in this kind of game, and something which will be lacking in GW2 and is going to lead to low retention rates in GW2. People will PvP for a bit, get bored of just playing the maps for the sake of playing them, and move on to some other fresher game.

 

Compare that to more logical gear systems- where you instead play to earn cosmetic things like mounts, pets, titles, cool looking gear that isn't any better, etc.... and you have a time sink, but you also have it so anyone can pick up the game and stand a chance.

 

Boring.

 

That aside- you have 4 WZ maps, 3 of which are almost the same, two of those are built to be painful stalemates almost every time, and the final is more like a strategic game of chess than actual pvp- as unique as huttball is. There's no variety, there's no open world pvp or space pvp, and there's no other creative WZs. There's nothing to mix pve and pvp like Alterac Valley did or keep sieges. There's not even death matches for those who are pissed off at how tedious VS and Alderaan tend to be with a decent match up.

 

EVERY GW2 map is exactly the same. Sure, the layouts are slightly different and they look different, but they're exactly the same. Curently, SWtOR has 4 entirely different mechanics:

 

1) Move from the starting point to the ending point faster than your opponent

 

2) Control any number of 3 binary points for a sufficient time to outscore your opponent

 

3) Control at least 2 of 3 analog points for more time than your opponent

 

4) Score a goal as in traditional sports

 

GW2 has a single mechanic: number 2. People are already complaining about it, and guess what? It's exceedingly unlikely to change as the developers have said they elected to have only one mechanic because it was the best way to balance the classes for PvP. Yes, that's right - as they designed the classes, the maps were designed alongside as part of the balancing process, so there is absolutely no way they're adding any new PvP for a very long time - especially considering that most of what I have read says the game isn't even close to balanced as is.

 

Speaking of match ups- no ranked for casual players, despite that being promised, and the ranked that is in has no match making system- you have teams with a 80% losing ratio facing teams that have 200 wins and no losses- obviously RWZ is going to flop.

 

Are you quite certain about this, as virtually everyone I know is of the understanding that the party members' rankings are taken into consideration when matchmaking.

 

That doesn't even get into the obvious class imbalances- which if you've played the best and worst classes both at 50 you would have to be retarded not to notice them.

 

Again, bads think there are hurge balance problems. The majority of people who are any good either really doesn't or thinks they're tiny. Heck, in at least 80% of balance posts, the people complaining demonstrate a

misunderstanding of very basic class or game mechanics.

 

It all comes down to this game catering only to people with lots of time, who aren't very good and need gear as a crutch, who are playing one of the overpowered classes, and know if they go play a game like GW2 where everyone has equal access to gear they will be destroyed. Without the huge time sink requirement and the fact that BW nerfed the crap out of the most played classes early on this game might be successful- not competitve, but successful. As is, this game's not competitive, it's not successful, it's not recognized, and it's losing subs faster than you can say 'patch 1.2 was TOR's NGE'.

 

Arenanet has already nerfed the crap out of some of the classes in GW2 to the point that some are considering them unplayable for structured PvP. Don't kld yourself - you're not getting anything in GW2 you don't get in any other MMO, including huge, class breaking nerf bats.

 

Hate to burst your bubble- but every game is packed with bad players, if that was honestly the problem, it would be one that every game has, and every game would maintain their sub numbers of almost 2 million until a very specific patch before dropping like a rock in the ocean at 1.2- you can say that 1.2 wasn't a problem, that it made the game better, etc.... but good games don't do that.

 

Problem's clearly BW's, and the lost subs are going to be their problem when they have to report their mmo that could have easily kept over 1.5 million subs for a long time is dropping to 300k after the 6 month subs are up, and is still losing subs.

 

We aren't talking mmo hoppers that are leaving either- we're talking those who bought 6 month subs, loyal fans, former biodrones, SW lovers, people who have been waiting for this game for years, people who have been trying their hardest to like this game no matter what. For what? BW doesn't communicate, when they do it's snarky comments, answering questions we already know the answer to and saying 'metrics said so' as if that's a real response. They haven't responded to the changes that caused the sub drop, they haven't addressed features that were promised and are nowhere in sight- including features like world pvp that were in but got taken out and are now coming "soon".

 

There's less than 3 weeks now before 3/6 months run out- these are BW's more loyal fans, who before 1.2 saw a game they wanted to play, and would have played for years- but are now not playing, and just waiting for their subs to run out- yet BW isn't even acknowledging that, like they don't care at all if the game becomes a ghost town.

 

I don't care about world PvP, and frankly I don't think most truly competitive PvPers do, either, except as an added bonus, something fun to do for a break. As much as is put into it in GW2, It's not considered serious - even in the developer's terms. They themselves say it's not meant to be competitive per se, it's not meant to be balanced, etc. etc.

 

I think in the end you're going to be quite disillusioned by this game - whether you like TOR, think it's awful, or not. I myself will play it a little bit both to try something new out and because I like the setting, but I doubt very highly I'll get my desire for competitive PvP satisfied through it, and I doubt even moreso that it will still be considered a haven for hardcore PvPers after a few months in.

 

If you don't think the PvP in the game is going to be lacking in fun purely from the sheer number of absolutely terrible players you'll have to put up with, you're fooling yourself. Apart from anything else, that will kill the PvP even if nothing else does.

[Skolops]

WvW will be fun every now and then, but sPvP is where the competitive players will be imo. Let's just hope arenanet delivers on their promise to bring in new maps and gametypes.

 

That's what I just commented on in my response to another poster: I really doubt they will, at least not for a very long time or not without tremendous amounts of balance whining.

 

The reason is that they specifically created only this one gametype as an integral part of their balancing, saying it was too hard or impossible to balance the classes for multiple game types.

[Skolops]

While I'm posting on the subject right now, I want to throw in another point I've been thinking about, which is that SWtOR is so much cleaner visually. When in a WZ, I can see what's going on and respond. GW2 is visually impressive with all of its attack animations, but they're so incredibly noisy and flashy that it seems almost impossible to actually keep track of what is going on. When I watch 1080p videos of the thing, I literally can't even see the players half the time through all of the particle effects. To me, that's a HUGE drawback.

[Derian]

And you are wrong. Many of the most played pvp games out there are also among the most widely considered competitive ones- not only is SWTOR pvp famous for having one of the most massive drops in pvp activity after a specific patch in mmo gaming history (losing 25% of their subs in a month following 1.2), but no competitive pvp guilds recognize it and nobody considers it worthy of becoming a tournament game.

 

There's numerous problems- it vastly favours certain classes, which has alienated bad AND good players of several classes entirely from playing the game- why play a gimp class in this game when you can play a good one in another?

 

It vastly favours huge time sinks- with WH gear being a 300+ hour grind. This favours only one group- the group who can't pvp without an advantage over the majority of players. Good players with guilds or lots of time generally find it either pointless- since they can beat bads whether or not they have equal gear- or find it boring... because it is even less challenging to fight bad players when they're also handicapped by huge gear gaps. Casuals, which generally is the majority of players but for SWTOR the game was catered specifically to casuals- hate huge gear grinds because they will never have equal gear and thus never pvp on equal terms- someone who plays 1-2 hours a day and does multiple things other than pvp (so, a typical casual) is never going to have the best pvp gear before a new set comes out.

 

So- basically, the current gear system is popular with almost nobody- and that's a fact that's pretty clear when you see that even the people who defend the gear system refuse to say anything good about it- instead saying 'you need to WORK for it' and 'we SUFFERED through getting it, so you should to'- when did games become work and suffering?!

 

Compare that to more logical gear systems- where you instead play to earn cosmetic things like mounts, pets, titles, cool looking gear that isn't any better, etc.... and you have a time sink, but you also have it so anyone can pick up the game and stand a chance.

 

That aside- you have 4 WZ maps, 3 of which are almost the same, two of those are built to be painful stalemates almost every time, and the final is more like a strategic game of chess than actual pvp- as unique as huttball is. There's no variety, there's no open world pvp or space pvp, and there's no other creative WZs. There's nothing to mix pve and pvp like Alterac Valley did or keep sieges. There's not even death matches for those who are pissed off at how tedious VS and Alderaan tend to be with a decent match up.

 

Speaking of match ups- no ranked for casual players, despite that being promised, and the ranked that is in has no match making system- you have teams with a 80% losing ratio facing teams that have 200 wins and no losses- obviously RWZ is going to flop.

 

That doesn't even get into the obvious class imbalances- which if you've played the best and worst classes both at 50 you would have to be retarded not to notice them.

 

It all comes down to this game catering only to people with lots of time, who aren't very good and need gear as a crutch, who are playing one of the overpowered classes, and know if they go play a game like GW2 where everyone has equal access to gear they will be destroyed. Without the huge time sink requirement and the fact that BW nerfed the crap out of the most played classes early on this game might be successful- not competitve, but successful. As is, this game's not competitive, it's not successful, it's not recognized, and it's losing subs faster than you can say 'patch 1.2 was TOR's NGE'.

 

Hate to burst your bubble- but every game is packed with bad players, if that was honestly the problem, it would be one that every game has, and every game would maintain their sub numbers of almost 2 million until a very specific patch before dropping like a rock in the ocean at 1.2- you can say that 1.2 wasn't a problem, that it made the game better, etc.... but good games don't do that.

 

Problem's clearly BW's, and the lost subs are going to be their problem when they have to report their mmo that could have easily kept over 1.5 million subs for a long time is dropping to 300k after the 6 month subs are up, and is still losing subs.

 

We aren't talking mmo hoppers that are leaving either- we're talking those who bought 6 month subs, loyal fans, former biodrones, SW lovers, people who have been waiting for this game for years, people who have been trying their hardest to like this game no matter what. For what? BW doesn't communicate, when they do it's snarky comments, answering questions we already know the answer to and saying 'metrics said so' as if that's a real response. They haven't responded to the changes that caused the sub drop, they haven't addressed features that were promised and are nowhere in sight- including features like world pvp that were in but got taken out and are now coming "soon".

 

There's less than 3 weeks now before 3/6 months run out- these are BW's more loyal fans, who before 1.2 saw a game they wanted to play, and would have played for years- but are now not playing, and just waiting for their subs to run out- yet BW isn't even acknowledging that, like they don't care at all if the game becomes a ghost town.

 

I'm not really aware of any MMOs that are, that includes WoW. I seriously doubt you are any good either, with all the complaining you do. I didn't cry when Sentinels were severely underperforming in Beta, and I still did well with the class before they buffed it.

 

Even the difference between BM and WH isn't a huge difference. For all the crying people did about becoming a fresh 50 a few months ago, I did very well in WZs still. Usually the biggest complainers are just bad.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Derian

[Skolops]

I'm not really aware of any MMOs that are, that includes WoW. I seriously doubt you are any good either, with all the complaining you do. I didn't cry when Sentinels were severely underperforming in Beta, and I still did well with the class before they buffed it.

 

Even the difference between BM and WH isn't a huge difference. For all the crying people did about becoming a fresh 50 a few months ago, I did very well in WZs still. Usually the biggest complainers are just bad.

 

I've had 5 fresh 50s, and I've never had a problem being in the top 3 in either damage or objectives in really any warzone, with the exception of those instances where your opposing team is just extremely bad and you are the one who happens to end up showing up late to every fight when everything is already dead.

[Derian]

I've had 5 fresh 50s, and I've never had a problem being in the top 3 in either damage or objectives in really any warzone, with the exception of those instances where your opposing team is just extremely bad and you are the one who happens to end up showing up late to every fight when everything is already dead.

 

The gear thing is just another excuse. Yeah when you're geared that's when you really shine obviously, but I came in Fresh, after missing an entire month at launch, one a republic character. Suffice to say I went up against a lot of geared Imps and I still topped scoreboards. The reason is because I had a four month headstart playing the game in beta i.e my experience made up for the gear.

 

It also didn't hurt everyone thought Senitnel/Marauders were terrible back then. Those were the days...wtfpwning Sorcs who all were told the class is OP at launch, who are now whining about other "OP" classes. Perhaps they should have thought for themselves.

[DCVAN]

While I'm posting on the subject right now, I want to throw in another point I've been thinking about, which is that SWtOR is so much cleaner visually. When in a WZ, I can see what's going on and respond. GW2 is visually impressive with all of its attack animations, but they're so incredibly noisy and flashy that it seems almost impossible to actually keep track of what is going on. When I watch 1080p videos of the thing, I literally can't even see the players half the time through all of the particle effects. To me, that's a HUGE drawback.

I understand where you are coming from. I didn't get to play the betas so it's extremely hard for me understand, especially during fights with mesmers. There is just so much going on and so many effects. Hopefully that will get better after I understand the game more.

[mangarrage]

You can buy buffs for your guild in WvW.

 

In reality yes you can but they are temporary buffs, none of which are gamebreaking by any stretch of the imagination and it would cost an astronomical amount of real life money to keep them running for any length of time. I'm sure people will run them for certain, but it just isnt realistic to have them always on

 

They arent like Rift at all you buy it temporarily and have to keep buying it over and over and over

 

Maybe years down the line when people has loads of coin just sitting around, but this is something that isn't anywhere close to a pay to win feature

 

Why so much misinformation, play it, find out facts, then post, or stay out of the debate

Edited July 30, 2012 by mangarrage