Sniper/Gunslingers need a redesign?

[Smaugbelly]

Why would a sniper run up to you? lol

.

 

Because you're standing on the bridge in Voidstar and I want to run up and knock you off? :-)

[Elkirin]

It is a shame that coming from the low pop asia-pacific servers, I need the clowns that want to nerf everything to actually queue so we get our 1 pop per hr or so.

 

While I strongly dislike nerfs, nerf threads and by default most crying for the nerfs, I do wish that you spend some time in the PvP queues when not on the forums trying to nerf yet another game into the ground.

 

Please play a few classes, check out their weaknesses and strengths and stop trying to bring about another WAR nerf fest.

 

By all means make constructive suggestions but try not to destroy games with selfish petty hate campaigns.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Elkirin

[vsalcedo]

From a ranged DPS Sage perspective:

A Sniper/Gunslinger runs close to you, crouches down in cover and knocks you back with a baseline non talented ability. Immobilized for 2 to 5 seconds (non removable by sage). Deals damage. Then proceeds to leg shot you for damage and another 2 to 5 seconds of becoming immobilized (non removable by sage). By this time, any work toward your resolve from the initial knock back has faded and they proceed to hit you with a flash bomb. Then they simply finish you off.

 

And since they have me immobilized (rooted) in place where they want me, there is no option for line of sight for survival.

 

Now lets look at what options I have as a ranged DPS sage to counter this. Now remember this is provided that the sniper/gunslinger is at Zero resolve. If they have full resolve I'm completely helpless.

"Break Free Ability" = provided it is not on cool down, will only break the first root. Will not save me from the leg shot or flash grenade.

2 second stun = is equal to the minimum duration of the first root. Both roots lasts a full five seconds without taking damage.

CC = if not talented for the instant cast, you won't get the spell off before your dead.

Knock Back = Ineffective =I have already been knocked backed and rooted, they are out of range.

Force Speed = Useless while immobilized.

Force Slow = Useless as they are standing still anyway behind their screen.

 

Now for those trying to cry your cover as a weakness...

You can take cover anywhere (kneel down). You can use cover ability to "roll" to the boxes or corner nearby when a melee is on top of you.

 

Sniper/Gunslinger = medium armor, with 2 baseline abilities that can immobilize for 2 to 5 seconds without being affected by resolve.

Sage/Inquisitor = Light Armor, with 2 talented abilities that can immobilize (1 requires 12 points into one tree, the 2nd requires 30 points in a separate tree)

 

This disparity between two ranged DPS classes for abilities that are and are not affected by resolve shows that is it not just about "how to deal with them"

 

Your ************ about a one vs one...Sages counter snipers just fine so do scoundrels. You gotta learn to playbyer sage. You got the same amount of ccs he does and dots. A sniper who uses cover is usually in the sharpshooter tree.

[dcgregorya]

Cover-Gives 20% ranged defense boost,immune to leaps/pulls and interrupts

Knockbacks-Ambush,knocks target back a small distance,cover pulse-AOE knockback 10 meters and roots targets for a few seconds

Roots-Leg shot,immobilizes target for 4 second(Not sure on that,could be less),Aoe KB root

High damaging AOE abilities with no minimum distance required

20 second cc immunity.

AOE shield that reduces damage taken by your team.

AOE CC

 

Compare this to other caster classes like the Sage telekinetics and Mercenary Arsenal trees.

The sage and Merc can get interrupted,they can get leapt to,their AoEs aren't as strong as sniper,they have no roots((I may be wrong)) and they dont hit near as hard as sniper.They have no immunity to cc,the sage has no defensive cooldowns and mercs have no escapes.Both Merc and Sage have single target CCs that require a 2 second cast time.Just seems to me if you compare the casters,sniper is by far the best wiith its uninterruptability and being unleapable..

 

This is retarded. A sorc and a merc do the same or better damage against *players* than a marksman sniper. They can mez and self heal. They have better defensive CDs and most importantly they can cleanse.

 

Different classes are different, tired of sorc/merc players coming up on these boards and crying that the things they have aren't good enough and yet the grass is greener on the other side constantly. If you think snipers have it so good roll a sniper.

[dcgregorya]

From a ranged DPS Sage perspective:

A Sniper/Gunslinger runs close to you, crouches down in cover and knocks you back with a baseline non talented ability. Immobilized for 2 to 5 seconds (non removable by sage). Deals damage. Then proceeds to leg shot you for damage and another 2 to 5 seconds of becoming immobilized (non removable by sage). By this time, any work toward your resolve from the initial knock back has faded and they proceed to hit you with a flash bomb. Then they simply finish you off.

 

And since they have me immobilized (rooted) in place where they want me, there is no option for line of sight for survival.

 

Now lets look at what options I have as a ranged DPS sage to counter this. Now remember this is provided that the sniper/gunslinger is at Zero resolve. If they have full resolve I'm completely helpless.

"Break Free Ability" = provided it is not on cool down, will only break the first root. Will not save me from the leg shot or flash grenade.

2 second stun = is equal to the minimum duration of the first root. Both roots lasts a full five seconds without taking damage.

CC = if not talented for the instant cast, you won't get the spell off before your dead.

Knock Back = Ineffective =I have already been knocked backed and rooted, they are out of range.

Force Speed = Useless while immobilized.

Force Slow = Useless as they are standing still anyway behind their screen.

 

Now for those trying to cry your cover as a weakness...

You can take cover anywhere (kneel down). You can use cover ability to "roll" to the boxes or corner nearby when a melee is on top of you.

 

Sniper/Gunslinger = medium armor, with 2 baseline abilities that can immobilize for 2 to 5 seconds without being affected by resolve.

Sage/Inquisitor = Light Armor, with 2 talented abilities that can immobilize (1 requires 12 points into one tree, the 2nd requires 30 points in a separate tree)

 

This disparity between two ranged DPS classes for abilities that are and are not affected by resolve shows that is it not just about "how to deal with them"

 

If you ever lose a fight to a sniper as a balance DPS sage you should be ashamed of yourself. TK maybe, but balance just has to dot and run. And he can only root you from range once every 12 seconds in marksman spec. He can't even hard stun you from range.

[kjkdollarbanny]

Cover-Gives 20% ranged defense boost,immune to leaps/pulls and interrupts

Knockbacks-Ambush,knocks target back a small distance,cover pulse-AOE knockback 10 meters and roots targets for a few seconds

Roots-Leg shot,immobilizes target for 4 second(Not sure on that,could be less),Aoe KB root

High damaging AOE abilities with no minimum distance required

20 second cc immunity.

AOE shield that reduces damage taken by your team.

AOE CC

 

Compare this to other caster classes like the Sage telekinetics and Mercenary Arsenal trees.

The sage and Merc can get interrupted,they can get leapt to,their AoEs aren't as strong as sniper,they have no roots((I may be wrong)) and they dont hit near as hard as sniper.They have no immunity to cc,the sage has no defensive cooldowns and mercs have no escapes.Both Merc and Sage have single target CCs that require a 2 second cast time.Just seems to me if you compare the casters,sniper is by far the best wiith its uninterruptability and being unleapable..

 

oh cmon. l2p

i'm tired of lolling at guys that after being ***** by anyclass go to forum and make angry threads.

sniper is more squishy than sage and merc. he has no save abilities and need hands to make proper damage.

if you too dumb to get recipe for win sniper - you need to go and play browser games.

[vimm]

Because you're standing on the bridge in Voidstar and I want to run up and knock you off? :-)

 

That doesn't apply to his scenario, but I understand how you read my meaning out of context.

[kjkdollarbanny]

Take Cover (cover anywhere, not natural cover) should be a 2 second cast. If you want to be a seige tank, then it should take 2 seconds to seige.

 

ok, then all def abilities need 2 seconds cast.

[ArchangelLBC]

Other ranged classes need to be buffed to match the gunslinger.

 

 

This. A thousand times this.

 

The thing I admire about the sniper/gunslinger class in PVP is that while it's a turret class that self roots and depends on cast times like my preferred spec (Gunnery Commando, Mirror to Arsenal Merc) Bioware has seen fit to give them the tools to do this job and do it effectively, letting them keep their enemies at range with cover providing admirable immunities to leaps and interrupts, as well as the other tools they have in their arsenal.

 

Gunnery Commandos, and to a large extent Assault Commandos too, are considered so low on the totem pole precisely because while they are designed to do damage in a similar way, they just don't have the tools to do that job.

 

In my opinion, they should give Gunnery Commandos the Hold the Line ability from the Vanguard Tactics tree which grants 8 sec of immunity to controlling effects every 30 seconds. That kind of thing would be perfect for commando and honestly I think would instantly make them much more viable in competitive PVP.

[pureeffinmetal]

Snipers are in a good place.

 

Unfortunately DPS Sages and Mercs aren't, which is why they lacking when comparing ranged DPS classes against each other.

[Heleinne]

Snipers are in a good place.

 

Unfortunately DPS Sages and Mercs aren't, which is why they lacking when comparing ranged DPS classes against each other.

 

Exactly

[ZDProletariat]

Sorcerers are in a good place, people just don't know how to use them. Commandos that aren't heals are indeed in a very poor place right now.

[theangryllama]

The only thing that snipers/slingers have over other ranged is pull/leap immunity (and an interrupt for the poor merc/commando)

The only reason that there are nerf cries for them at the moment is that the FOTM folks can't leap to them or grapple them and good snipers chew pyros and marauders alive.

[pureeffinmetal]

The only thing that snipers/slingers have over other ranged is pull/leap immunity (and an interrupt for the poor merc/commando)

The only reason that there are nerf cries for them at the moment is that the FOTM folks can't leap to them or grapple them and good snipers chew pyros and marauders alive.

 

Snipers have Leap Immunity - unique to them

 

Snipers are also immune to interrupts in cover - unique to them.

 

Snipers have 2 roots - Commandos/Mercs have none. Sages/Sorcs can get 1 via talents.

 

Snipers have 4 defensive cooldowns. Merc/Commandos have 1. Sages have None.

 

Again. I don't have a problem with Snipers. But there is nothing a Sniper can't do better than a Commando/Merc or Sage/Sorc when you're talking Ranged DPS in PVP.

[Twor]

The only thing that snipers/slingers have over other ranged is pull/leap immunity (and an interrupt for the poor merc/commando)

The only reason that there are nerf cries for them at the moment is that the FOTM folks can't leap to them or grapple them and good snipers chew pyros and marauders alive.

 

Good snipers chew nearly anything alive that is stupid enough not to LOS them. But I agree that snipers are fine. Tough opponents when well played but their weakness of being stationary makes up for it.

 

The sorcs on my server atleast have learned how to use force sprint to their advantage and the terrain to break LOS.

 

Its quote easy to counter a sniper if he doesn't sit on a node where you really have no choice but to engage him on his conditions.

[Truescopes]

Snipers have Leap Immunity - unique to them

 

Snipers are also immune to interrupts in cover - unique to them.

 

Snipers have 2 roots - Commandos/Mercs have none. Sages/Sorcs can get 1 via talents.

 

Snipers have 4 defensive cooldowns. Merc/Commandos have 1. Sages have None.

 

Again. I don't have a problem with Snipers. But there is nothing a Sniper can't do better than a Commando/Merc or Sage/Sorc when you're talking Ranged DPS in PVP.

 

Static barrier is a defensive cooldown, and I would take that over all my defensive cooldowns as a sniper.

[Roiz]

No redesign of sniper is needed, they are fine as they are. Out of the two classes you referred too only merc/commando could use a little love. Sorcs are really fine the way they are. Snipers can be easily countered with all that they have and are supposed to be a hard counter to mara/sents. A good hard counter to snipers are sorcs btw.

 

yes sorc/sages are fine, we need more free kills. On a serious note there is no sage viable pvp spec for rated.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Roiz

[pureeffinmetal]

Static barrier is a defensive cooldown, and I would take that over all my defensive cooldowns as a sniper.

 

Static Barrier is not a defensive cool down its a Heal.

 

You're willing to give up Entrench, Evasion, AND Ballistic Shield for Static Barrier?

 

Someone has clearly never played a Sorc or Sage.

[SentinelDranoel]

You obviously don't play the class.

 

I do, they don't have force speed or a leap or a pull and leg shots can be cleansed. They have a lot of weakness, especially when you are forced to move from your cover. Force a gunslinger or sniper to move from cover and you got them. They have the advantage when they get a good cover location with distance. IMO, just give me more range so that I can engage my target from a further distance. The further away I am, the better for me.

[Siorac]

Static barrier is a defensive cooldown, and I would take that over all my defensive cooldowns as a sniper.

 

Finally. It's the most annoying mantra on this forum that Sages/Sorcerers have no defensive cooldowns. Except the bubble that absorbs 3-5k damage every 20 seconds.

 

Madness/Balance Sorcerers/Sages are absolutely fine, the other DPS tree could use some love and their healers are in a bad place compared to Operatives/Scoundrels - but hey, they could be Commandos. Always look on the bright side.

[Kalifus]

yes sorc/sages are fine, we need more free kills. On a serious note there is no sage viable pvp spec for rated.

 

Just because people still don't know how to play sorc/sage doesn't mean sorc/sage isn't viable. I don't get the people that call that class broken because I find it the most boring easiest class to play, but whatever....sure it's broken....feel better now.

[pureeffinmetal]

Finally. It's the most annoying mantra on this forum that Sages/Sorcerers have no defensive cooldowns. Except the bubble that absorbs 3-5k damage every 20 seconds.

 

Madness/Balance Sorcerers/Sages are absolutely fine, the other DPS tree could use some love and their healers are in a bad place compared to Operatives/Scoundrels - but hey, they could be Commandos. Always look on the bright side.

 

Again. Static Barrier isn't a defensive cooldown ,its a Heal. And it doesn't come close to absorbing 5k.

 

Static Barrier is a complete joke to DPS through.

 

But this isn't a Sorc thread so I'll stop derailing it.

[PloGreen]

Static barrier is a defensive cooldown, and I would take that over all my defensive cooldowns as a sniper.

 

Yes it can be appiled to other classes, with a mezz attached on break. I agree I love bubble.

 

Comparing sage and gunslinger, they are completley different playstyles. I would say sage utility is superior to be honest. Dps wise gunslinger comes out on top in burst terms since sages/sorc are not burst or a pure dps class > we are a dot-proccing-utility class with situational abilities (rescue) and decent pressure damage. Also, I dont find snipers/gunslinger all that difficult to kill as a dps sage, i just use my strengths and use los & cc. I never fight them out in the open.

 

I have a gunslinger and a sage, I dont play either of them the same way.

 

Sages - you need to be aware of alot of things, your team mates, positioning - its far more squishy but also far easier to get away from being focused because of bubbble stun, and ccs. The class takes finesse and awareness to play well, and people need to understand the limitations (tho obviously in fullly augmented wh gear those limitations are less imposing). Do they need a buff? Im not so sure, its true they are unforgiving and gearing one up they will seem weak, compared to other classes they are harder to play for new players also (at 50 anyway). But if they increase dps I have a feeling we wil just see "nerf sages" threads again because good players will just push them to places that seem OP, because there are very good sages/sorc out there now as it is to be honest. Do we need a defensive cooldown? I dont think we need that either as such. A spell reflect skill would be good though, akin to reflecting a projectile back at the enemy, or a force absorb skill to convert incoming damage into force power, but those sort of things could be saved for raising the level cap when everyone gets abilities.

 

Gunslinger - far less mobile, rely more on hard defensive cooldowns and knockbacks, survive much better under focus fire(squishy - far from it imo) and your damage is superior in burst terms. Better burst dps, good utility but not as good as a sage - they cant bubble or heal in a pinch.

[Siorac]

Again. Static Barrier isn't a defensive cooldown ,its a Heal. And it doesn't come close to absorbing 5k.

 

Static Barrier is a complete joke to DPS through.

 

But this isn't a Sorc thread so I'll stop derailing it.

 

It reduces the damage you take so it's a defensive CD. It doesn't really matter that the scoring system regards that damage absorbed as healing. It doesn't actually heal you, it just prevents damage. Every 20 seconds.

[pureeffinmetal]

It reduces the damage you take so it's a defensive CD. It doesn't really matter that the scoring system regards that damage absorbed as healing. It doesn't actually heal you, it just prevents damage. Every 20 seconds.

 

It doesn't reduce the damage you take. If I get smashed for 5000, I still get smashed for 5000 whether I have a bubble up or not.

 

The bubble will just absorb 3500 of it. Static Barrier for all intents and purposes is a heal. Its a good ability, I'm not arguing that. But under focus fire it absorbs 1 good attack and then its done. The sage or sorc doesn't live for 20 seconds to apply it again.

 

A Troopers shield reduces the damage he takes by 25% from all sources on a 2min CD. That is a defensive cool down. And the reduced damage he is taking gives him a chance to get healed up.