To the Anonymous Insider

[Shingara]

SWG at launch wasn't a sandbox? Oh my...

 

No swg at launch was a themepark game, how hard is it for you to read, let me explain something to you. Second life is sandbox, swg was themepark with sandbox elements.

 

Having player housing doesnt make a sandbox game, rift has playerhousing so are you now proclaiming that rift is now a sandbox game or a themepark game. STO has player created quests so are you saying that is a sandbox. so please tell us when does a themepark game become a sandbox game in your eyes.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Shingara

[Goretzu]

They don't HAVE to give sub numbers, and now that they are surely under 1 million, they probably won't.

 

So they don't have to list subs for shareholders for games under 1,000,000 subs?

[DarthTHC]

If you mean silence on the forums that can be down to one of 2 things, the people that came here to bash the game only and never gave it a chance had 3 month subs which coincidently is the exact time the forums became less hate filled by a long way and the second is that people who were activly trolling and attacking people will have built up forum infractions and finaly banned from the forums thus there silence.

 

Your theory is that a large number of people spent over $100 just to troll the forums for 3 months?

[TUXs]

If you mean silence on the forums that can be down to one of 2 things, the people that came here to bash the game only and never gave it a chance had 3 month subs which coincidently is the exact time the forums became less hate filled by a long way and the second is that people who were activly trolling and attacking people will have built up forum infractions and finaly banned from the forums thus there silence.

 

No, I think he clearly means Bioware's silence. Bioware treats their customers like they don't matter. We're not even worth a 60 second forum post daily. When Bioware gives us no hope, the changing attitude on the forums is to be expected. Silence->discontent->frustration->anger

[Shingara]

So they don't have to list subs for shareholders for games under 1,000,000 subs?

 

Actually duder no they dont, they are not requested to, many years wow didnt give sub numbers in investor calls. they only have to state net and gross profit and net and gross lose. How they will improve growth and profits and what they have planned for there investment.

[DarthTHC]

So they don't have to list subs for shareholders for games under 1,000,000 subs?

 

No, they don't have to divulge the number at all, regardless the number of subs. Hopefully a shareholder will ask the question if the information isn't volunteered.

[Goretzu]

If you mean silence on the forums that can be down to one of 2 things, the people that came here to bash the game only and never gave it a chance had 3 month subs which coincidently is the exact time the forums became less hate filled by a long way and the second is that people who were activly trolling and attacking people will have built up forum infractions and finaly banned from the forums thus there silence.

 

More that threads that would have been closed within 15 mins to a couple of hours last thursday having been left open for days.

 

Of course it could well be a new moderation regiem, that is quite possible.

 

Just seems coincidental if its is right before an investors call (as EA accountants and management would likely have the counts in front of them right around about then).

[Shingara]

No, I think he clearly means Bioware's silence. Bioware treats their customers like they don't matter. We're not even worth a 60 second forum post daily. When Bioware gives us no hope, the changing attitude on the forums is to be expected. Silence->discontent->frustration->anger

 

Your theory is that a large number of people spent over $100 just to troll the forums for 3 months?

 

Do you not see the dev tracker or see the interviews, tweets done and shows they attend to speak to the community. Even wow doesnt talk to is peeps and they blank point do not talk to the eu forums.

 

And yes there are people that do that, they get a new game to get over a content draught which wow most defo has had since november last year and even if they are enjoying the game will post negativly on the forums simply for the reaction.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Shingara

[Goretzu]

No, they don't have to divulge the number at all, regardless the number of subs. Hopefully a shareholder will ask the question if the information isn't volunteered.

Actually duder no they dont, they are not requested to, many years wow didnt give sub numbers in investor calls. they only have to state net and gross profit and net and gross lose. How they will improve growth and profits and what they have planned for there investment.

 

Why on earth did they admit to a 400,000 drop in 3 months then? Rather than just silence and maybe "our SWTOR subs are very high and holding up well".

 

That's a barmy admission to make unless you have to.

[Valkirus]

If you mean silence on the forums that can be down to one of 2 things, the people that came here to bash the game only and never gave it a chance had 3 month subs which coincidently is the exact time the forums became less hate filled by a long way and the second is that people who were activly trolling and attacking people will have built up forum infractions and finaly banned from the forums thus there silence.

 

Or it could be they are on vacation. And enjoying the millions they made from this game. lol!

[Shingara]

Why on earth did they admit to a 400,000 drop in 3 months then? Rather than just silence and maybe "our SWTOR subs are very high and holding up well".

 

That's a barmy admission to make unless you have to.

 

Go read the investors call and you will see why, it was the 1st investors call when actual subscribers were not filled with suppossed numbers set by 1st month 30 free day access. it is when subscription count was accurate and it was an actual increase not a lose of active running subscribers.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Shingara

[Zilik]

Everyone has there opinions of course but it really comes down to how people say things as to if your stating it or making assumptions about what everyone else, or a huge number of people, believe.

 

The people that wanted to play KOTOR 3, GOT to play KOTOR 3 and left. Many others were forced into a linear leveling experience that was nothing more than an interactive movie with no MMO or end game at the end. Who is left are the players that wanted to play an MMO, although many like myself wanted an MMO (NOT KOTOR 3) and got to the end, yes the end, and there was nothing.

 

Ive played a large number of MMO's for years now, including the god-king WoW, and although the choice was there to perhaps move to a different local to quest in reality if you just followed along from one quest hub to the next you pretty much followed a linear route. Town 1-do quests-1 leads to the next area-move on. I do agree the option to move on was nice, but I don't see that as some make-or-break option.

 

Playing ToR at no point have i ever felt the need to go to a different quest hub just so i could quest there as opposed to where i was. The fact that i did get to choose my responses, even though most really meant nothing to actual outcomes of quests or stories, it made me feel much more ingrained in the story over WoW where i always found myself just clicking the accept button then running off to the map location and back without any concept of what i was doing except grinding XP as fast as possible.

 

The story was great. The voice acting was great, but I hated that it was voice acted at all. I CAN READ, THANK YOU. I WANT to read. Same difference between a movie and a book, the book is ALWAYS better, you get to imagine the voices yourself, make them into your own character, your own version.

 

Well again i disagree. I can read, and like to, and i can see... and like to i guess. So overall when the choice to click the button and race off to get xp is faster, i enjoy watching the scenes, answering in whatever way i see my character doing so, not as a RP'er, but just because i feel its more engaging and draws me more into the story and why I'm doing what I'm doing. As far as making them into your own character, your still doing that, just because you would choose a voice in your head that might not be the one they chose for your character is again not make or break for me.

 

One of the biggest mistakes was the on rails class questing system. I am not saying it was not a cool experience, it was, but it was like playing a single player game and this huge investment into exclusive class story/quest lines was at the expense of storylines and quests that everyone can do. This on rails exclusive class system with nothing else available took out a large chunk of what could have made an open world where you get to roam around and do what quests you want to do.

 

OK agreed it took development time away from quests for everyone, but i think and have read a good deal of posts saying the class quests were peoples favorite quests, so it seems that perhaps it was a good choice for them to use that time that way. Personally again, i never felt the desire to drop a story quest to move on, where as i would occasionally like to be done with some other quests to move on and continue my class quest.

 

You were also all but forced to do every, single, quest. ALL of the Bonus series', simply because you needed the XP. XP was pretty scarce to find, and this is coming from a veteran EQ2, AOC, WOW, RIFT player. It is as if they made all the quests, then got out their calculator and divided the total xp to get to 50 by the number of quests in the game, total. Terrible.

 

I leveled 5 characters to 50 so far, my first one i skipped 2 entire planets and did no bonus series because i intentionally chose to leave them for my next character, and i was never more than 1 level lower that the planet or quests i was on. All i did feel is that when i was a little bit short of xp to level or something, grinding mobs was not as productive as some games.

 

If you want more story you have to start over, and play a different class. This is counter to the point of an MMO, persistence for the sake of progression of your character. I dont want to play every single class to get ANY more story.

 

Well when i hit max level on WoW my "story' pretty much ended, sure there were lots of raids and dungeons, daily and weekly quests but (while not as many yet) I've been doing the same things in ToR. From your other points though you seem to think story is less important than other content? so why would you want more story at max level over FPs and Ops and such. I very much liked the story-lines for my characters but unlike WoW where i got my main to max and never wanted to ever even consider leveling another character, i finished my first in ToR and immediately made another, then a third fourth and fifth, and i have others already made and waiting to go.

 

Only now am i starting to actually build my main in ToR and have begun doing the Ops and FPs and i am continuing now to see my characters story progress as he fights the bad guys out there for a variety of reasons. These things are pretty much open story for everyone instead of class only.

 

Agreed for those who want 1 main and don't want to level more characters you do miss a lot of content in the game do to development time being spread around, so that point i understand.

 

I got my BH to 50 and it wasn't the fantastic leveling experience many claim. It was a lonely experience. I even leveled with good friends and it was a PITA to organize all three of us to go here and there and then find out that so and so has to get to this point in their class quest to pick up this other quest so everyone can progress together at the same time. Much time was spent on our own part of the map doing small class quests to get to bosses where we all trudged to each others boss to help. Very single player and tedious.

 

As it happens my BH (now 50, my third character) leveled the entire planet of Taris in a group, and a random group at that. I was looking to do the group quests for the set of mod-able armor that comes from the rewards. I agree that class quests are sometimes a pain in groups since you either cant help on some part and others you need to do them more than once, but overall i found it much more fun than other planets i did more by myself.

 

So i see your point here and agree that part of class stories could use some help, grouping to help with them can be a little bit of a PITA.

 

-----

 

And them my wrap-up. While i can see your points from your point of view, sadly that's all it is. Some, even many, may agree with yours, but i do not, and hopefully many others don't as well. Everyone has there opinions and can freely state them.

 

Mine is that i very much enjoy the game, and i see that it has a lot of good parts to it and a huge amount of enjoyment for me. I believe if the game manages to continue it has the chance to grow and become even better.

 

I really wish those people who are enjoying the game would post more often, all anyone sees when they read these forums are those people who have issues with the game. While they can certainly speak out on those issues, overall it gives a game a bad appearance for new people thinking of joining.

[Shingara]

Or it could be they are on vacation. And enjoying the millions they made from this game. lol!

 

Or they have moved onto GW2 beta.

[HarleysRule]

No swg at launch was a themepark game, how hard is it for you to read, let me explain something to you. Second life is sandbox, swg was themepark with sandbox elements.

 

Having player housing doesnt make a sandbox game, rift has playerhousing so are you now proclaiming that rift is now a sandbox game or a themepark game. STO has player created quests so are you saying that is a sandbox. so please tell us when does a themepark game become a sandbox game in your eyes.

 

No you're wrong, SWG was a sandbox AT LAUNCH. Maybe NGE turned it into a themepark, but it wasn't at launch. You're right though in that housing doesn't matter in what's a sandbox or what isn't. Themepark = directed and quest driven.

 

Why on earth did they admit to a 400,000 drop in 3 months then? Rather than just silence and maybe "our SWTOR subs are very high and holding up well".

 

That's a barmy admission to make unless you have to.

 

How many MMOs does EA oversee? Do any of them report sub numbers? Blizzard does it because they're top dog. EVE use to, but I haven't seen them announce since before Monaclegate.

 

They are only required to report raw financial numbers...they don't have to break it down by title.

Edited July 23, 2012 by HarleysRule

[Goretzu]

Go read the investors call and you will see why, it was the 1st investors call when actual subscribers were not filled with suppossed numbers set by 1st month 30 free day access. it is when subscription count was accurate and it was an actual increase not a lose of active running subscribers.

 

Huh? But why admit that subs had dropped from 1.7 m to 1.3m at all if they didn't have to say anything?

[Valkirus]

Why on earth did they admit to a 400,000 drop in 3 months then? Rather than just silence and maybe "our SWTOR subs are very high and holding up well".

 

That's a barmy admission to make unless you have to.

 

I think they will say what the subs are now. But they will also use whatever they can to make it look less negative as possible. Such as the 6 month subbers will still be looked at as active. But some will be gone totally next month. Or they may count the free trials as total active players. I still think a more accurate state of the game in terms of total subs will not be known until the end of the year's report.

[Shingara]

No you're wrong, SWG was a sandbox AT LAUNCH. Maybe NGE turned it into a themepark, but it wasn't at launch. You're right though in that housing doesn't matter in what's a sandbox or what isn't. Themepark = directed and quest driven.

 

Themepark means the context and the setting of the game is set out for you with quests that take you through the game, swgs game was set out as such but not via set quests, the game was driven by community play which doesnt mean sandbox, that just means that it is strongly aimed at roleplayers and by hidden quests, open world missions and pvp. If that makes it a sandbox then so is gw2. It had set classes but it had major hybrids set out in 32 trees.

 

The only sandbox within swg was playerhousing at launch.

 

A sandbox game means that there are no quests, there are no classes, the player creates the whole game around them and everything is a blank canvas. anything can be created and the player is the game. Thus the name sandbox, its blank and you build a castle.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Shingara

[Shingara]

Huh? But why admit that subs had dropped from 1.7 m to 1.3m at all if they didn't have to say anything?

 

Go read it, 1st call active accounts 1.7 mil 2nd call 1.3 mil active subscribers in which they state subscribers had gone up.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Shingara

[TUXs]

Do you not see the dev tracker or see the interviews, tweets done and shows they attend to speak to the community. Even wow doesnt talk to is peeps and they blank point do not talk to the eu forums.

 

And yes there are people that do that, they get a new game to get over a content draught which wow most defo has had since november last year and even if they are enjoying the game will post negativly on the forums simply for the reaction.

 

I see Dev Tracker and Dev Tracker only. What have you heard or seen upcoming that gives you hope? 1.4 hasn't even been mentioned and 1.3 was a flipping joke. Their promise of rolling out updates month after month has gone ignored. Their promises of better communication has also been ignored. The current negativity is DIRECTLY related to Biowares pathetic communication. DIRECTLY RELATED!!!

 

I don't care what WoW does...this isn't the WoW forums. WoW can do whatever they like, they're in good shape still...SWTOR is not.

[Lheim]

People who are saying that fans were craving wow-clone features pre-launch miss a crucial point.

 

WoW-like convenience features .. like a way to find groups that doesn't consist of LFG 4M! spam on fleet general channel, or customizable appearance, openly explorable world, easier transportation, etc, do not necessarily mean a game has to be a wow-clone. These features are usability and convenience things that could be strapped to any type of MMO - from SWG to EvE.

 

When people asked for usability and convenience features, they weren't asking for raid tiers, more raid tiers, badge collection and dailies. Those are the things that make TOR a wow clone .. well, plus the whole class and resource and cooldown system, the holy trinity, quest hubs, power word: shield.. ah, hell, you name it.

 

Others in this thread have it right. You don't leave WoW after 4-7 years of playing it, pay eager attention to a new MMO that claims to offer something different, and then buy it .. all to get the same bones of a game you were playing back in 2004 with a different skin.

 

Bioware missed a golden opportunity - that games like TSW and GW2 are going for, for hell or high water - to provide the burnt-out wower something new and different. Let's face it; at this point.. nobody can ape wow exactly enough, and well enough, to pull people who adore wow out of their social network. The disaffected, the bored though? Open market. Bioware didn't go for them.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Lheim

[Goretzu]

I think they will say what the subs are now. But they will also use whatever they can to make it look less negative as possible. Such as the 6 month subbers will still be looked at as active. But some will be gone totally next month. Or they may count the free trials as total active players. I still think a more accurate state of the game in terms of total subs will not be known until the end of the year's report.

 

If the active subs have dropped much below 1.3 m I think they'd be mad to say what they were if they don't have to do so, a bit like they don't seem to say what WARs active subs are.

 

Free trials will almost certainly be counted as active subs though, as that's pretty much the industry standard.

[islander]

Wow, a lot of people got trolled by this make believe insider...

[Goretzu]

Go read it, 1st call active accounts 1.7 mil 2nd call 1.3 mil active subscribers in which they state subscribers had gone up.

 

Yeah, but that's smoke and mirrors, 1.7 is still active accounts, it's just not maybe 1.7m accounts that have gone beyond the first month.

 

PR-wise it was a disaster and I can't see why they'd have admitted to it if they didn't have to.

[Shingara]

I see Dev Tracker and Dev Tracker only. What have you heard or seen upcoming that gives you hope? 1.4 hasn't even been mentioned and 1.3 was a flipping joke. Their promise of rolling out updates month after month has gone ignored. Their promises of better communication has also been ignored. The current negativity is DIRECTLY related to Biowares pathetic communication. DIRECTLY RELATED!!!

 

I don't care what WoW does...this isn't the WoW forums. WoW can do whatever they like, they're in good shape still...SWTOR is not.

 

I have seen whats coming in 1.3 and 1.4 via videos from bioware, i know that hk51 is coming and also is makeb and the planet assention i think its called. that more story is coming within the next year and new races are coming. Ive listened to the podcasts.

[Shingara]

Yeah, but that's smoke and mirrors, 1.7 is still active accounts, it's just not maybe 1.7m accounts that have gone beyond the first month.

 

PR-wise it was a disaster and I can't see why they'd have admitted to it if they didn't have to.

 

Sub numbers are always smoke and mirrors, you really thing that wow really has 10+ mil subscribers. of course they dont, wow itself has never really gotten above 4.5 mil subscribers in its prime years. want to know the more real sub numbers go look how many copys the expantion sold within the 1st 48 hours as all subscribers will pre order the thing so they arnt left behind.

 

And pr wise i dont think EA give a snizzle wizzle about sub how the pr is spun because they cant do much about it espec when part of the media never gave swtor a chance and are now calling it tortanic.