Stealth and Inc in WZs

[Daiyukie]

People, mid is not easier to defend. When you arrive at a side node from the speeder, you can IMMEDIATELY stop a cap. When you drop down from spawn at mid you can... run some more and hope they don't knock you back.

[MobiusZero]

Also, can someone please time how long it takes to get to side turrets from the side speeders (Time from the moment you respawn after death.).

 

I know they increased the time in 1.2, but I've never actually timed it (and am at work so can't play atm.).

[MobiusZero]

People, mid is not easier to defend. When you arrive at a side node from the speeder, you can IMMEDIATELY stop a cap. When you drop down from spawn at mid you can... run some more and hope they don't knock you back.

 

It's not a matter of mid being easier to defend. It's a matter of the combination of mid + side being easier to defend.

 

When defending both side turrets, your team must spread out more, and rely on returning to the fight quickly after death. When defending mid + side, you rely on being able to have your team stick together, and not have to die to begin with, thus not even needing to use speeders.

 

I personally die usually 0-1 times per WZ, so I don't exactly benefit from a strategy that relies on dying and mass zerging. That is a strategy for the unskilled who are unable to win fights.

Edited July 18, 2012 by MobiusZero

[Astarica]

I never timed it but it should be rather self evident that going from middle speeder -> middle is longer than side speeder to side. If this isn't true you'd see side turret control flip all the time but this just isn't the case.

 

All else being equal, the side turret is always an easier position to defend than the middle turret because it's closer from spawn. Additionally, it's faster to get from middle to side than side to middle (since middle has higher elevation and can jump off). If the guys on side call for help I can often intercept their attackers on time from middle. This is literally impossible if I started out at the side and guys called for help.

 

The reason why double sides doesn't really work is because the side canonns are so easy to defend, you usually just fail trying to take the enemy's side cannon while they take middle, and middle + side is obviously strictly better than holding 1 side cannon. But if your sneak attack succeeds, double sides is pretty much impossible to assault against a good team.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Astarica

[Astarica]

It's not a matter of mid being easier to defend. It's a matter of the combination of mid + side being easier to defend.

 

When defending both side turrets, your team must spread out more, and rely on returning to the fight quickly after death. When defending mid + side, you rely on being able to have your team stick together, and not have to die to begin with, thus not even needing to use speeders.

 

I personally die usually 0-1 times per WZ, so I don't exactly benefit from a strategy that relies on dying and mass zerging. That is a strategy for the unskilled who are unable to win fights.

 

The speed boosts lets 2 people get from side to side in about the same time if not faster than going from middle to side, and if you started out 4/4, you only need to rotate at most 2 people to defend against any attack. You don't even need to rotate 2 people most of the time.

 

If you never die in a WZ then you're insensitive to which turrets are good, because if you don't die there's no way anybody's taking the turret from you while you're still alive. So this argument is meaningless because 'not dying' already ensures your team won't lose.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Astarica

[LarryRow]

People, mid is not easier to defend. When you arrive at a side node from the speeder, you can IMMEDIATELY stop a cap. When you drop down from spawn at mid you can... run some more and hope they don't knock you back.

 

People? Its just one person, this Mobius guy.

 

But if he wants to just go mid every time, and thinks sending 3 people right is "dicking around," I really hope he's on my server and not on my faction, because we will lolwin with the side nodes every time. Take this for example, regarding respawners who died mid being able to speeder into one of the sides:

 

Oh? So your team has a psychic that knows exactly what side we are going to hit? In order to beat our team to the turret, you must guess, which isn't exactly a solid basis for a strategy, is it?

 

See, he doesn't even realize they can wait until one of the sides asks for help. It's literally like a 10 second ride, if that.

[Daiyukie]

It's not a matter of mid being easier to defend. It's a matter of the combination of mid + side being easier to defend.

 

When defending both side turrets, your team must spread out more, and rely on returning to the fight quickly after death. When defending mid + side, you rely on being able to have your team stick together, and not have to die to begin with, thus not even needing to use speeders.

 

I personally die usually 0-1 times per WZ, so I don't exactly benefit from a strategy that relies on dying and mass zerging. That is a strategy for the unskilled who are unable to win fights.

 

Why would you be dying if your team is calling inc and your healers are doing their job? Split 1 healer to a turret, guard the Sorc/Merc with your tank and keep your two strongest DPS with them (Sentinel and Vanguard). Other turret has the Scoundrel healer and the other 3 DPS.

 

One turret has 7 incoming? Send 3 from the other side and delay their healer from getting to the turret fight.

 

One turret has 5 incoming? Send 2 from the other side and any deaths determine how many are defending mid for them as they fly back.

 

It's really not hard to hold the sides, I don't understand the "mid+side" myth. If 2 mid defenders die from a 7-man push, to get back to mid they have to run three time the distance after spawning that someone at a side turret does. That's the weakness, the fact that you can't see it doesn't change it.

 

Using an argument like "You don't have to die in the first place" just shows you don't understand at all, as if mid magically gave you 25% reduction to incoming damage or something.

[MobiusZero]

I never timed it but it should be rather self evident that going from middle speeder -> middle is shorter than side speeder to side. If this isn't true you'd see side turret control flip all the time but this just isn't the case.

 

I just want to know how long it takes to get from respawn, to side turret.

 

I already know that it takes about 10-15 seconds to get from middle to side or side to middle, depending on your position, range, and gap closers.

 

I also know that most players will instantly take a speeder back, after they die. This means that if they died mid, they may very well have taken the speeder back to mid, and while in flight or shortly after landing, the node will be taken.

 

All I can say, is that when the enemy is defeated mid, a transition to a side turret is almost always a success.

 

All else being equal, the side turret is always an easier position to defend than the middle turret because it's closer from spawn. Additionally, it's faster to get from middle to side than side to middle (since middle has higher elevation and can jump off). If the guys on side call for help I can often intercept their attackers on time from middle. This is literally impossible if I started out at the side and guys called for help.

 

The reason why double sides doesn't really work is because the side canonns are so easy to defend, you usually just fail trying to take the enemy's side cannon while they take middle, and middle + side is obviously strictly better than holding 1 side cannon. But if your sneak attack succeeds, double sides is pretty much impossible to assault against a good team.

 

Again, the problem with the side nodes, is that if you don't die defending them, it takes too long to reinforce the opposite turret. It effectively cuts your team in half, and usually only works when the enemy is dumb enough to hit both turrets at the same time.

 

Also, if you are so bent on zerg defending side nodes, then the attacking team can easily get away with 7 people attacking 1 node. By the time you can reinforce with the opposite turret defenders, against 7 attackers, that node is lost.

 

I think people are just used to the enemy being stupid, and not pinpointing their strike on one side, and thus have this misguided notion that it's easy to hold both sides.

[LarryRow]

But a good team, is not going to fail to take a turret that is defended by 4 people, when they have 6-7 people. There's plenty of CC in this game to stop reinforcements from attacking your slicer, after the initial 4 defenders have been obliterated.

 

Look, obviously if you have two turrets it's GG. Nodes don't flip in competitive play unless someone makes a mistake. At least when attacking mid, the attackers and defenders have the same distance to run. It's harder to defend.

 

When I said mid was a PitA, I meant games where we had side+mid, it was so annoying running from side to mid and getting held up coming around the corner. On the other hand, predation plus the speed buff under mid means you can rotate just as fast as the enemy if you are smart.

 

I like how 6-7 people always "obliterate" 4 people without losing anyone. You may kill them all, but you also lose 2-3 in the process. And it doesn't happen all at once. They can trickle back in to interrupt caps. And what do you think the rest of the team is doing? Getting the sides is the correct answer.

 

Given the choice between getting left and maybe getting mid after a long and annoying battle where I basically just hope my team is significantly better, or sending folks right to have a high probability to get both sides, I choose the latter.

[Astarica]

People? Its just one person, this Mobius guy.

 

But if he wants to just go mid every time, and thinks sending 3 people right is "dicking around," I really hope he's on my server and not on my faction, because we will lolwin with the side nodes every time. Take this for example, regarding respawners who died mid being able to speeder into one of the sides:

 

 

 

See, he doesn't even realize they can wait until one of the sides asks for help. It's literally like a 10 second ride, if that.

 

If we have both side turrets, assuming I somehow have no idea what was happening at the turrets, I just look at the minimap and go to the side with less people after I die. The worst that can happen is say you're split 4/2 at the moment you looked at the map, and 4 was the side being attacked but you hopped to the 2 side instead. But since there's still 4 guys there you can land, find out it's the wrong spot, and then get to the 4 side with the speed poqweup and chances are all those 4 guys didn't die in the time it takes you to do this.

 

Attacking side cannons is risky because the guys in the middle can easily rotate 2 guys to stop you, and position of the jump off point means one of those guys jumps down with an expertise powerup. All else being equal this alone ensures your sneak attack cannot work (one of the defender has expertise buff and none of your attackers do). It's true that most teams do not rotate the 2 guys from middle to help as needed but that's not because going for middle is inherently bad. You really need to do something like 4/0/4 to imbalance a standard opening (anything within 2 moves from 1/7/0). It is not possible for 1/7/0 to counter 4/0/4 with only 2 moves. You need to move possible 4 guys from middle to stop it, and now the cost for switching your strat is nontrivial. You might miscommunicate or misjudge the attack size. Of course 4/0/4 can also bakcfire in your face but that's the risk you got to take if you want to avoid a direct confrontation with a standard opening.

[Astarica]

The opening strat is very simple if you know even a bit about game theory.

 

Double sides = game over, this is fact.

 

If your enemy is good, they know this too.

 

So you can't assume you can get double sides against a team that's on the same level as you because they'll stop you from getting the 'game over' position, so you go for middle + side instead.

 

And if the enemy team turns out to suck? In that case you can get middle + side anyway and still win.

 

This is only wrong if your team turns out to be significantly weaker than the enemy. In this case your only hope is to surprise them with a hard double sides opening to overwhelm their standard opening. But due to ego issues, almost nobody assumes they're the weaker team at start, and besides, even if your team has absolutely no ego, it's not healthy to assume your team is about to get totally owned because then it just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, so you might as well start with some optimism.

 

Note that all the openings within 2 moves of 1/7/0 can trivially respond to any attack with less than 3 people hitting your own side turret. 1/7/0 can transition to 3/5/0 in two moves. This will stop say 1/4/3 every single time because your rotating guys start with expertise buff and the attackers do not (all else being equal). If you want to take the side turrets, you can't be chicken about it. You got to go all in with 4 guys or you're just doing a variant of the 1/7/0 where your main strat is still hoping to cap middle.

[MobiusZero]

One turret has 7 incoming? Send 3 from the other side and delay their healer from getting to the turret fight.

 

Sending 3 from the other side is an even worse move, due to the distance. A smart attacking team, if unable to crush you outright (which if they can, would also be a good strategy. They would certainly have the advantage in doing so, since the battle can already be won by the time they can reinforce from so far away.), will simply bog down your defenders without killing them, allowing them to send 2+ players to take the side you left undefended, which would be impossible to reinforce in time if they don't kill any of your reinforcements (they can even pull a mid defender to attack the undefended side.).

 

I like how 6-7 people always "obliterate" 4 people without losing anyone. You may kill them all, but you also lose 2-3 in the process. And it doesn't happen all at once. They can trickle back in to interrupt caps. And what do you think the rest of the team is doing? Getting the sides is the correct answer.

 

Actually, it's quite easy to kill 4 players with 7, and not have a single death. Right off the bat, your healer should pretty much die instantly from a grapple + killbox attack. And through healing, CC, and perhaps a little kiting, it's just too much of an advantage to lose many people, unless skill is an issue.

 

And even if 1 or 2 die, the fact that they have the option to go to the opposite side, forces the enemy to keep defenders there (and if they don't, they'll lose it.).

 

Given the choice between getting left and maybe getting mid after a long and annoying battle where I basically just hope my team is significantly better, or sending folks right to have a high probability to get both sides, I choose the latter.

 

You choose the strategy that relies on not having to win fights, and death zerging nodes. This type of strategy is inferior to a strategy that relies on keeping the team together, and minimizing deaths (unless a long shot win is the only chance you have, due to skill difference.).

 

Also, just a side note - if your team sends two stealthers to the right, and the enemy uses a 2/6/0, then it's a big, fat, failure. It's too much of a gamble to be worth it.

 

Double sides = game over, this is fact.

 

Game over for the team that took both sides - I agree. Well, unless they capture mid, that is.

 

You can say all that you like, but probably 90% of the games I have lost, was not from the enemy controlling 2 sides.

Edited July 18, 2012 by MobiusZero

[DarthOvertone]

How does one call inc on players using stealth? I was in Novare Coast, when a stealther stunned me and started capping the node. I ended up stopping the cap and defeating him but I got all types of "call it out noob" or "nice no call". How am I supposed to call inc on something I can't see?

 

The better response would have been: "Ya, I'm no good at guarding. You come do it. K. Thx."

[funkiestj]

Again, the problem with the side nodes, is that if you don't die defending them, it takes too long to reinforce the opposite turret. It effectively cuts your team in half, and usually only works when the enemy is dumb enough to hit both turrets at the same time.

 

Is there an assumption of "PUG that can only communicate through text chat" here? If it is a PUG of skilled players but they are on voice chat (e.g. members of a guild but they don't practice together) then you won't have 6 vs 1 at east while the enemy sends a wave at west. Instead a player or two will peel and head under middle and wait.

 

I think holding two sides is not problematic for coordinated teams on voice.

 

I think a useful assumption for the discussion is that fighting skills are roughly even and we are hoping we win by coordinating better and employing better tactics and strategy. If one side is vastly better at pew pew (and likely better geared) then there is no discussion.

[vimm]

I would love to hear a logical reason to the solo defender strategy.

 

Do people just like losing that much?

 

The real question is, why would you use more than 1?

[Astarica]

Is there an assumption of "PUG that can only communicate through text chat" here? If it is a PUG of skilled players but they are on voice chat (e.g. members of a guild but they don't practice together) then you won't have 6 vs 1 at east while the enemy sends a wave at west. Instead a player or two will peel and head under middle and wait.

 

I think holding two sides is not problematic for coordinated teams on voice.

 

I think a useful assumption for the discussion is that fighting skills are roughly even and we are hoping we win by coordinating better and employing better tactics and strategy. If one side is vastly better at pew pew (and likely better geared) then there is no discussion.

 

Although it seems like /dance is the popular thing to do when you see no enemies, you really should be checking the other side if you got nothing to do at your node assuming you're at the node with more people. Usually the "XYZ was defeated" message gives you a good idea of where the fight is even if you never talked to anyone else on your team.

[Astarica]

The better response would have been: "Ya, I'm no good at guarding. You come do it. K. Thx."

 

It's surprising how often people just refuse to guard nodes. I think in PUG it's pretty much the slowest person at getting away from the node gets stuck with guarding regardless if they're qualified to do so or not. I've guarded nodes solo as an Arsenal Merc and the only thing I can do is throw a concussion missile on the enemy and call out for help.

 

But what's even worse is that say you got an Arsenal Merc as the last guy at the node, sometimes he'll decide since he's so bad at guarding he might as well leave the node to join on the offense.

[DarthBloodloss]

Random reply...but I think Arsenal Merc is actually good for stalling/defending a node solo. Especially against a stealther.

 

When the stealther pops out to attack, the BH can instantly StunBreak+Knockback+KoltoOverload. That completely negates the stealth attack. Call out the incoming, Pop a shield and LOS for as long as possible (or just kick their ***). When at half health use Stun Dart and Concussion Missile and heal yourself up.

 

If your team still doesn't make it to you after another full health bar, its not really your fault.

 

But this whole reply is moot because said Arsenal Merc should actually be Pyro Merc. I PvP'd as Arsenal since beta. Last month I switched to Pyro and its about 48,000 times better.

 

Arsenal Merc - Heavily geared in BM/WH, more often than not I could take people in 1 on 1.

Edited July 18, 2012 by DarthBloodloss

[Ximix]

Ignore them, people need to understand that you can't type whilst stunned.

 

LOL. I've actually had to ask people why they couldn't type when the character was stunned.

[Astarica]

Random reply...but I think Arsenal Merc is actually good for stalling/defending a node solo. Especially against a stealther.

 

When the stealther pops out to attack, the BH can instantly StunBreak+Knockback+KoltoOverload. That completely negates the stealth attack. Call out the incoming, Pop a shield and LOS for as long as possible (or just kick their ***). When at half health use Stun Dart and Concussion Missile and heal yourself up.

 

If your team still doesn't make it to you after another full health bar, its not really your fault.

 

But this whole reply is moot because said Arsenal Merc should actually be Pyro Merc. I PvP'd as Arsenal since beta. Last month I switched to Pyro and its about 48,000 times better.

 

In the case of 1on1 the ability to actually win that 1on1 is far more important than any stalling tactics and the Arsenal Merc excels in NOT winning 1on1.

 

If against more than one guy, Arsenal Merc isn't particularly better than the average in terms of stalling. Not worse, but not better either.

[Warrgames]

I type "what i am defending" then open one of the windows by clicking on it. Like opening the map. Then when someone jumps me out of stealth a double hit enter and let people know i need help. then as i fight i say how many are their. if i kill them i let everyone know its clear and re-queue calling for help. by doing this i can call for help faster and still move around and do other things.

[Daiyukie]

Sending 3 from the other side is an even worse move, due to the distance. A smart attacking team, if unable to crush you outright (which if they can, would also be a good strategy. They would certainly have the advantage in doing so, since the battle can already be won by the time they can reinforce from so far away.), will simply bog down your defenders without killing them, allowing them to send 2+ players to take the side you left undefended, which would be impossible to reinforce in time if they don't kill any of your reinforcements (they can even pull a mid defender to attack the undefended side.).

 

If you say so lol. I guess we should just sit on the turret not being attacked and watch healthbars going down? The fact that they COULD have a response to it is not the point, the entire point was outlining how easy it is to defend the sides. If they're sending two guys to intercept our reinforcements that they somehow saw coming under the tunnel, awesome, that evens up the fight on the turret, we can CC those guys with a flashbang and on our merry way to outnumber them.

 

We can theorycraft possible stalling/reinforce techniques, but the fact is that holding two sides is not difficult "because of the distance", you can hold out 4v8 on a side turret for a decent amount of time because the nature of focus fire is one guy dies, then another guys dies, then another guy dies, so that first guy is coming back. If you're not dying on the turret, you're holding it. If you're dying one at a time on the turret, you're holding it.

[DarthBloodloss]

In the case of 1on1 the ability to actually win that 1on1 is far more important than any stalling tactics and the Arsenal Merc excels in NOT winning 1on1.

 

I do agree with this. But as far as winning in 1 on 1...I was full WH/BM and I regularly beat people in 1 on 1. The only problems were well geared Maras and Assassins for the most part. Yes I admit my gear frequently decided the outcome of 1 on 1.

 

But in a way I disagree. Now as a Pryo Merc in fully augmented war hero, I would much rather be at the main fight than solo defending a node. I'd rather have the lowest scrub on the squad as the solo defender, and just call out incs. (this is of course when you have only 1 node. with 2 nodes, yes its a bad idea for scrubs to solo guard or 2-man guard a node.)

Edited July 18, 2012 by DarthBloodloss

[SlimsPicken]

Ignore them, people need to understand that you can't type whilst stunned.

 

doing it right.

[funkiestj]

LOL. I've actually had to ask people why they couldn't type when the character was stunned.

 

LARPing, LDO.