Marauder / Sentinel Are Broken

[Munx]

Wish i could understand what was so impressive about this Klinda charecter? he picks his greatest moments when he has this trinkets/adrenal/medpacks ready, put them in a video, and bam he becomes the example of how marauders supposedly play all the time.

 

I mean wake up ffs..

[Dekadez]

Fine in PvE, absolutely rubbish in PvP.

[Munx]

 

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19866-georg-zoeller-talks-warriors-knights-and-balance

 

I think he is right, alot of the issue with Sentinels/marauder is directly related to buggy skills atm.

 

but it sounds like atleast they are also noticing the problem.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Munx

[DOPPELBOCK]

Don't think it's broken, but needs some fixing for sure.

 

I'm a 50 Marauder with almost all my Champion gear. Leveling in the beginning stages I used Vette and she out dps'd me at times. Later I had to use Quinn. But who cares about PVE, I'm here to PVP.

 

-Ravage is a funny ability, (we have a spec in our tree that makes this uninterruptible) so while you're spending time swinging away for about 5 seconds and taking damage, other classes are gaining the distance they need to burn you down or stabbing you in the back. Other classes want you to use that move, it helps them survive.

 

-Swing mechanics take about 2 seconds to connect, while gun fire or stuns from other classes are instantaneous. Although sometimes, the Marauder will act like he's going to swing and then the animation will start over before following through. So sometimes it takes about 4 seconds.

 

-Deadly Saber is a good ability, too bad it takes about two seconds to cast then a smugglers got his 8 second stun on you, and instead of getting deadly energy for 15 seconds its more like 3, if you can force leap to him that is, or if he's in the sweet spot and you didn't spec into close quarters you can't leap to him and your not close enough to hit him. Move wasted.

 

-Cloak of Pain at 6 seconds makes you have to keep spamming this and when you do you waste about 2 seconds as you watch another slow *** animation to use another ability. As if we didn't have enough of these type of abilities. When I'm getting hit for 3 to 4k damage per second 20% less damage is not worth sticking around for the next two seconds to use.

 

-Undying Rage is such a joke. So I'm getting close to dying let's reduce half of my current health to get off probably one swing. That's about all you'll get off within 5 seconds.

 

-Force leap, People complain about this move but there are classes that can counter this as soon as they see you flying through the air at them. Most moves in the game continue through if you press the button before your opponent, but not force leap. I can't jump through the jets in Huttball with it, but other classes can sure pull me down from it.

 

With no macros and a gimped amount of space for your abilities, the Marauder is not for the faint hearted. Some people take some of the abilities off, but I think you need almost all of them to stay alive and do any amount of sustained damage. Get yourself a mouse with a lot of buttons.

 

There are a lot of moves but a lot of garbage moves at that. Our in combat stealth is a joke and most of the time has to be used with unleash as we are targeted and set in stun lock hell. You can put 2 points in Phantom and reduce all damage taken by 100%, but after your 4 seconds is up you take the remaining damage that fire, bleeds, or other AOE sticking to you are doing as you're stun locked in place, or you can put 2 points in Unbound, but as you have those 4 seconds to run, you are still taking damage and will most likely die anyway.

 

There have been times when I have been bouncing from one player to another all match long with constant damage in the Annihilation tree and I can't get into the top three in damage. Best way to play the marauder in my opinion is to stay out of the middle if at all possible, pick off people that are half health. It takes us a long time to burn someone down in decent gear and that usually gives them time to get their power moves back and or receive help from others. They say we are the suppose to be the feared damage dealers and I laugh at that. I believe the Jug. is more viable in pvp because of their armor.

 

Funny someone said the Dev. gave us buffs to be more useful in group, yet our two best buffs last for 10 and 15 seconds with a cool down of 2.5 minutes. lol

 

I have a Bounty Hunter also, and that class is a cake walk compared to the Marauder. Give me more bust damage and take away some of the healers Dps and I'll be happy.

 

If you want a class with an I win button, Marauder is not for you. It's a lot of work right now.

[Mordregon]

What's wrong right now:

 

Ravage - who and on what drugs came up with such a piece of brilliance, as giving one of the few melee classes literally surrounded by the ocean of ranged classes an attack, not to mention one of our highiest damage dealers, that needs to be channelled for 3 seconds WHILE STANDING STILL, with maximum effective range of 4m (!!!), 90% of the time only 2/3 hits ever land on the target, since they have plenty of time to move away... and we're flagging ourselves for focus fire while doing that.

 

Force Charge - it's supposed to root the target for 2sec, it's nothing but a gap closer as it is right now, not only removing that tiny piece of CC out of the equation, but also removing one of the crucial moments where we can actually use Savage Kick, which beside that just doesn't see much use. Atm it only works in pve.

 

Only "CC" we have is Force Choke - works well to silence healer from casting, if they don't break out of it the moment we use, and even when it works, again it's just a signal to opposing team to focus fire at you yet again standing still (!!!)

 

No knockbacks - no ability to push anyone anywhere even once every 1min or so, the only pushing going on around here is done to us.

 

And we could go on...

 

Essentially the problem lies with bad design.

 

Whoever worked on it, apparently never paid attention to other games it seems, especially years old debate of Warrior vs Ret Paladin in WoW which brought many pains to their respective players and developers working on it, problem was very simple:

 

- Warrior - required buildup to later perform an offload of moves on his target

 

- Paladin - starts the fight with full mana and requires no buildup, is a pure offloader that offloads first THEN slows down to restore.

 

 

Same issue here in SWTOR - most classes in this game are offloaders! - except, as it is right now Marauder/Sentinel doesn't do enough damage to counter it's buildup time well enough with his output.

 

Not to mention that while I can manage that, call a masohist but I like complicated classes, and there are players who also handle it well, having to manage Rage and Fury to activate abilites etc vs classes who just push a button to do same or better move, well it's not hard to see how can this be very frustrating to many.

 

We CAN do good damage, but the amount of time, effort and just sheer work involved in putting out numbers that are merely at a push of a button for others, makes our output pale in comparison.

 

Sure, there are some powerful Marauders out there, but if you look at the matches, the are decked in high gear, fight against teams not on equal footing with gear/stats, so hey ofcourse they do great, but put them against teams of players as geared as they are, and it's not so pink and rosy anymore.

[Mindwormbified]

Sentinels requires activity, you can't sit in your chair mashing a button and expect to win.(tracer missile anyone?) I use 20-24 different skills in any given fight and I have to constantly be in motion, If I stand still, I die. This means constant WASD + ctrl/alt/shift 12345 and clicking 4 or so skills on the action bar while rotating the camera with your mouse....

 

You're so full of **** I don't even...

[Callo]

Just... Completely.

 

Other classes have issues with one of their talent trees, maybe two, but they at least have one viable one... Our's are all *********** terrible. They're not thought out, planned or structured to any reasonable degree, AND they're both focused on single target long-term DPS. Where's the burst DPS tree or the AoE tree or ANYTHING other than "LOL DAMAGE ROTATION"?

 

These are the most underpowered advanced classes by a long way. They need fixing pretty much immediately before everyone playing them quits.

 

Who agrees with me?

 

All I got out of this was wahhhh I don't know how to play my class. Sentinel is amazing DPS if you know how to play the class correctly. If all you know how to do is mash your keyboard with your palms or mouse click your skills then yes, you will be horrible. Watchmen is the DoT tree if I remember right and it's amazing at single target DPS. If you keep your DoTs up every time they come up and rotate through your skills right you will melt targets.

 

tl;dr L2P the class and stop being a baddy clicker or go back to Panda World

[truffle_shuffle]

Marauder/sentinel class is extremely powerful when played correctly. Any of their trees can win a 1v1 battle and even a 2v1 when cooldowns are up. That said, it is easily one of the more complex classes to play well with managing 2 resources, and needing @ 24 keybinds that are in constant use. The biggest complaint about this class is dealing with knockback, particularly in Huttball which punishes melee classes.

[Volacious]

If you're not simply destroying people 1v1 it's a L2P issue, sorry.

 

Bad players are the only reason their aren't calls for NERFS to sentinels/marauders. I melt just about everyone 1v1 (the only exception being very skilled healers) and win 2v1s probably 90% of the time.

 

Thank you baddies, for "balancing" this class for me.

 

There are plenty of warzone pics around with sentinel/marauder top damage, if these people can do it with a sentinel, anyone else can learn to do the same.

 

In closing, please DONT L2P, keep whining on the forums, it keeps the nerf bat at bay.

[Taliknor]

About the only thing I don't much like about Mara atm, is that I would of liked a finesse/brute style option moreso then the bleed/smash option given.

 

Then again, I haven't got to play with a full talent tree yet. Been mostly fiddling with operative builds.

[NermalDetonator]

what did you think would happen with the melee dps light armor class when they announced everyone would have equal dps for raids?

 

More utility and survivability beyond medium armor. Armor in and of itself doesnt matter that much. Its why you can have light armor tanks.

[NermalDetonator]

Sentinels requires activity, you can't sit in your chair mashing a button and expect to win.(tracer missile anyone?) I use 20-24 different skills in any given fight and I have to constantly be in motion, If I stand still, I die. This means constant WASD + ctrl/alt/shift 12345 and clicking 4 or so skills on the action bar while rotating the camera with your mouse....

 

I tghink the main issue people are having is whether or not the payoff is there. If its a high skill class, but has greater ultimate performance, that's one thing. If you could put the same effort into another class, and achieve similar results, but that class has a less steep learning curve, its another.

 

I wont pretend to have mastered the class by any means. I have a marauder and a sorc, both in their 30's. For me, the sorcerer is leaps and bounds more powerful in terms of what it can pull off, but the marauder has a crazy, frentic playstyle that's a blast.

[Baffamaster]

I love my marauder, even if I suffer from short fingers (and carpal tunnel syndrome) so I have to rely on some clicking but I manage it ok anyway.

I like the fact the longer the fight is the more damage I seem to put out, rage is easily maintained and I don't have to worry about heat problems or running out of power.

[KTheAlchemist]

The only real problem I see with Sentinels/Marauders is that they need a third speed. Right now, they have two speeds:

 

1. Looking cool. Perfectly executed management of cooldowns and resources. Destroys everything in your path.

 

2. DEAD. ANYTHING less. You die vs. single pulled elites/champions.

 

Now, I like a class where I can really crank up my class's output via my own performance. But I don't want to do that every pull or every other pull while just doing solo quests. I'd rather save that level of personal performance for level 50 Flashpoints (especially hardmode) and Operations.

 

This does not mean that I think you should be able to derpface through all solo content, but I think the class needs more of a 3 speed system.

 

1. Looking cool. Perfectly executed management of cooldowns and resources. Destroys everything in your path.

 

2. Doing okay. A more casual / relaxed priority/rotation, still needing some understanding . Good enough to finish most solo missions. Pivotal/important bosses may require speed 1 if you're doing them at-level.

 

3. DEAD. Asleep at the wheel and/or no understanding of mechanics. Still dying to elites/champions.

Edited January 23, 2012 by KTheAlchemist

[Caliban_Thule]

You're so full of **** I don't even...

 

Assault

Battering assault

vicious slash

rupture

deadly saber

Annihilate

Crippling Slash

Obfuscate

Smash

Intimidating Roar

charge

force choke

disruption

cloak of pain

saber ward

undying rage

Unleash

force camo

deadly throw

vicious throw

ravage

force scream

berserk

frenzy

bloodthirst

 

I would have to use most if not all of these in a good 1v1 fight.

 

Not to mention

relic

stim

potion

Retaliation

Sweeping Strikes

Preditation

 

Oh and then Pommel Strike and Kick for PvE

Edited January 23, 2012 by Caliban_Thule

[Izriul]

What a got from this thread

 

Non Mara/Sents = The class is amazing!1!!! L2P

 

Low level Mara/Sents = It's great blah blah

 

Mara/Sents = Class needs some work.

 

No, I'm not a 50 Mara/Sent, but this is exactly how I read the thread. Sounds like some class got their butt handed to them and want to cry OP with no experience of the class.

[GarfieldJL]

What a got from this thread

 

Non Mara/Sents = The class is amazing!1!!! L2P

 

Low level Mara/Sents = It's great blah blah

 

Mara/Sents = Class needs some work.

 

No, I'm not a 50 Mara/Sent, but this is exactly how I read the thread. Sounds like some class got their butt handed to them and want to cry OP with no experience of the class.

 

Okay for all the people yelling L2P. I'm a lvl 47 Jedi Guardian, and I can back up the original poster that Mara/Sent are kinda broken from a PvE standpoint, as are Guardians and Juggernauts.

 

Difference is I posted a proposed solution, but everyone seems more interested in yelling about how their Jedi Robes make their butts look big...

 

 

The problem is that our automatic defensive animations actually cancel our skills (can even sometimes cancel our basic attack). This is on top of the ability delay everyone has been having. It affects some people more than others.

 

In fact, the defensive animation is upped by your defensive stat which affects deflection.

 

 

If people would like me to post a link to my original post I would be happy too, and would also be happy if people would like to post in said thread, to actually talk about the observed game mechanics as to why this idea could probably work in a PvP standpoint.

 

I don't have any equations just going from observations and tips that sometimes appeared on screen that I happen to remember.

 

Update:

Decided to add link:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=217165

Edited January 24, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[MetallicaRulez]

You need to put in a lot more effort to get half of the damage of others? CLEARLY COMPLETELY FINE.

 

Don't even get me started on PvP. Sniper has control, massive DPS, good defensive bonuses AND ranged to boot. And then marauder has... Errr... That ability that you can use once every five minutes to break CC?

 

If you're only doing half as much damage as other classes on a Sentinel, then you're just bad. Sentinel damage is totally fine. It's the other aspects that need a bit of tweaking (ability to stay on target in PvP, survivability in PvE).

 

Also... lolz, did you just say Snipers are GOOD in PvP? They're without a doubt the worst PvP AC, by a huge huge huge margin. If you knock them out of cover, they are literally helpless. They have NO mobility, which is one of the most important qualities you need in PvP. Sentinel/Marauder have decent mobility unless you count Huttball, where knockbacks wreck all melee classes, not just Sent/Marauder.

[DOPPELBOCK]

"Difference is I posted a proposed solution, but everyone seems more interested in yelling about how their Jedi Robes make their butts look big..."

 

Ya, that exactly why I didn't play a Jedi

 

- I say get ride of the minimum distance of force leap, it's already on a 12 second cool down.

 

- fix force leap so it actually stuns for 4 seconds

 

- I'd make our stealth 6 seconds not 4 and make us immune to stuns, slows and damage for the duration unless we attack another person. It's already on a 45 second cool down.

- Also after our stealth, let it break combat for god's sake so we can try and heal.

 

- Ravage should be an instant cast and bleed the target down over those 5 seconds so you can use other moves. "More Dots!"

 

- Get rid of undying rage and extend our cloak of Pain. As it is right now it's 6 seconds with a minute cool down.

[-Arcane-]

Just... Completely.

 

Other classes have issues with one of their talent trees, maybe two, but they at least have one viable one... Our's are all *********** terrible. They're not thought out, planned or structured to any reasonable degree, AND they're both focused on single target long-term DPS. Where's the burst DPS tree or the AoE tree or ANYTHING other than "LOL DAMAGE ROTATION"?

 

These are the most underpowered advanced classes by a long way. They need fixing pretty much immediately before everyone playing them quits.

 

Who agrees with me?

 

Ahahah FACEPALM.

 

Clearly you did not understand this class at all.

 

 

 

Sentinel is awsome, so sayeth lvl 68 valour battlemaster.

Edited January 29, 2012 by -Arcane-

[Trimsic]

Ahahah FACEPALM.

 

Clearly you did not understand this class at all.

 

 

 

Sentinel is awsome, so sayeth lvl 68 valour battlemaster.

 

And once you play another class, then you realize how useless the sentinel is.

Range DPS classes perform much better in PvE, when it comes to deal damage.

Range DPS classes are the actors in PvP combat, while the melee DPS classes are the spectators...

 

There is nothing else to say, actually.

[AnotherAgnostic]

I have no issue playing this class at all. It's definitely not too much to keep track of at once and our damage output is pretty much what the standard damage should be imo. I know for a fact that I have the highest single target damage in every flashpoint I've done so far. Questing can be tough at times if you are facing a number of opponents, but I've solo'd champions my level before, and I've seen a lot of other classes fall on their faces when they tried.

 

 

Yet again someone telling how great they are but not helping the conversation. If you are as great as you claim then how about telling us how you did it... seriously, how do you do take down a champ?

[Xzenthal]

And once you play another class, then you realize how useless the sentinel is.

Range DPS classes perform much better in PvE, when it comes to deal damage.

Range DPS classes are the actors in PvP combat, while the melee DPS classes are the spectators...

 

There is nothing else to say, actually.

 

Not so sure about this really. I seem to be doing ok in pve so far and in pvp I'm not even full Champion gear and I kick some serious *** with my sentinel. Can't say though if i would do even better with another class but so far I'm not having alot of problems with my sentinel.

[ZakPreston]

Terrible advanced class atm:

mediocre damage,

lag/fps dependant,

needs to burn all cds (offensive and defensive) to destroy a target (without some of them he's a frag)

no stun

no pushback/pull

as a pure DPS can't farm tanking/healing medals

no decent ranged abilities (10m max)

 

Useless! Utterly useless in group pvp and on illum! While most of ranged classes farm their frags/kills by flagging the most enemies with AOE, Sith Warriors/Jedi Knights have to jump into crowd.

[MulletManTim]

As a lvl 43 sent going up the Combat tree, i've noticed the stutters aren't nearly as bad as they were a few weeks ago. They acted up on Hoth this weekend, but for the most part, that is one aspect that seems to have been corrected. At least slightly. I've also heard that the stutter issue might have something to do with PC performance issues, but haven't been able to confirm that info.

 

Everyone knows that the class is pretty squishy, which for a melee DPS role can be a bit of a problem in PvP. It seems like focusing on a single target lets all of the other sides ranged DPS guys (especially the friggin sorcerer) single you out and take you down before you can build Focus and use the stronger attacks on your target, but part of that could be my lack of PvP experience (lvl 11 valor).

 

Being new to MMOs, this was the first character that I rolled and figured that the issues I was having were due to my lack of experience with the play style. And while a good portion of them probably were, I have since rolled a Shadow to about 24 and it seems to be a much easier class to play in the earlier stages. It's not as much fun, but you don't feel like your going to die at some point in every fight. The ability to stun a target with the Shadow and throw an attack while it is stunned seems to give it a major advantage in close situations as well.

 

Lack of viable stuns seem to keep this class behind the others in both PvE and PvP environments (although very occasionally you can stun the ball carrier in the flames in Huttball). Especially when several of our most powerful attacks can only be used on stunned/immobilized targets. The one real stun I have at this lvl requires me to stand still for several seconds and any attack I try to throw on my newly immobilized target cancels the stun and doesn't allow me to use that attack. Maybe it's good for raids? If we only get one buff, IMHO that should be it.

 

I have been very good about keeping my Sents orange armor mods up to date, and that certainly seems to be the biggest survivability factor when heading to a new PvE planet. I also noticed that when I hit lvl 40 and got some mods that were available for that lvl, the game seemed to get a bit easier. I don't know if there was a base stat increase at that lvl or what, but my attacks have definitely and without a doubt been hitting harder since I hit 40. A guildmate of mine is also leveling a sent and noticed the same thing when he hit 40. I just thought it was odd since we didn't really get great new abilities or upgrades trains at that lvl.

 

TL;DR

The Sent/Mara seems like a really bad decision in the 22-39 lvls, but is getting much easier in the 40's in the PvE storyline and the gear/mods that are available start to catch up you to the other classes.