Commando Builds for 1.3 PVE PVP and Diminishing Returns

[Shreb]

Hey All...

 

I have some questions as I'm trying to maximize both my PvP and PvE damage. I have read various posts here and there and want to summarize what I learned and what I've exerpienced when compared to others who know more than me.

 

PvP - Prior to 1.3, I was a gunnery commando. It sucked having to be a standing turret, but the damage was good. After 1.3, I noticed my DPS sucked. I went to Assault and my DPS was much much better. I am 100% in belief that assault is the way to go for PvP right now.

 

PvE - I am running PvE as assault right now, but I have seen many a posts saying the gunnery is still the way to go. That said.. does anyone have a great build to share? Is there a cookie cutter gunnery spec these days?

 

Gear/Stats - We are running EC SM right now. I am full Rakata with head and legs BH and my MH is my War Hero canon. Fully buffed, I was sitting close to 2200 aim. From what I read, but not confirmed, 2100 Aim is the soft cap and after that, you start seeing diminshing returns in Aim. Can anyone confirm this? When upgrading to BH gear from Rakata, I have noticed a couple things. 1) I lose a ton of accuracy 2) I tend to lose Aim as well. In terms of crit and the mythical 30% Cap... I read that it's not a total of 30% that is the cap. It's 30% in each of the stats you get crit from. Crit tiself is an addition of crit from aim, from crit itself, etc. I read that the cap for each of these is 30% and not the total crit value. I'm floating around 38% right now in crit. 75% multipiplier. Where do I get the accuracy that I'm losing? I don't remember if Gunnery adds accuracy anywhere that assault does not. Being that accuracy is #2 behind AIM, I'm surprised we lose so much upgrading from Rakata to BH. Back to the aim cap... I can understand if there is diminishing returns at 2100 for AIM... maybe that's why BW lowers our AIM value in BH gear.

 

Inputs? Suggestions?

[Freeborne]

Hey All...

 

I have some questions as I'm trying to maximize both my PvP and PvE damage. I have read various posts here and there and want to summarize what I learned and what I've exerpienced when compared to others who know more than me.

 

PvP - Prior to 1.3, I was a gunnery commando. It sucked having to be a standing turret, but the damage was good. After 1.3, I noticed my DPS sucked. I went to Assault and my DPS was much much better. I am 100% in belief that assault is the way to go for PvP right now.

 

PvE - I am running PvE as assault right now, but I have seen many a posts saying the gunnery is still the way to go. That said.. does anyone have a great build to share? Is there a cookie cutter gunnery spec these days?

 

Gear/Stats - We are running EC SM right now. I am full Rakata with head and legs BH and my MH is my War Hero canon. Fully buffed, I was sitting close to 2200 aim. From what I read, but not confirmed, 2100 Aim is the soft cap and after that, you start seeing diminshing returns in Aim. Can anyone confirm this? When upgrading to BH gear from Rakata, I have noticed a couple things. 1) I lose a ton of accuracy 2) I tend to lose Aim as well. In terms of crit and the mythical 30% Cap... I read that it's not a total of 30% that is the cap. It's 30% in each of the stats you get crit from. Crit tiself is an addition of crit from aim, from crit itself, etc. I read that the cap for each of these is 30% and not the total crit value. I'm floating around 38% right now in crit. 75% multipiplier. Where do I get the accuracy that I'm losing? I don't remember if Gunnery adds accuracy anywhere that assault does not. Being that accuracy is #2 behind AIM, I'm surprised we lose so much upgrading from Rakata to BH. Back to the aim cap... I can understand if there is diminishing returns at 2100 for AIM... maybe that's why BW lowers our AIM value in BH gear.

 

Inputs? Suggestions?

 

1. There is no DR for main stats at 2100.

 

2. You can get a far amount of accuracy back from Black Hole Implants.

[heechJunzi]

I seriously thought I read somewhere that main stat soft cap was as low as 1600, with rapid DR afterwards. Can someone share insight on this?

[deadandburied]

http://www.swtorstrategies.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/iqlov4.jpg

 

No soft cap for Aim on that graph. Estimates are 20k.

[LagunaD]

There is no "soft-cap" for any stat in this game, except Accuracy.

[Freeborne]

http://www.swtorstrategies.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/iqlov4.jpg

 

No soft cap for Aim on that graph. Estimates are 20k.

 

To clarify, that chart shows the Diminishing Return Rate for the Critical % you get from Aim. (Which is on a seperate DR value than raw crit score itself.)

 

The direct damage increase you get from Aim, just like power, is not effected by DR.

[ElJako]

Hey All...

 

I have some questions as I'm trying to maximize both my PvP and PvE damage. I have read various posts here and there and want to summarize what I learned and what I've exerpienced when compared to others who know more than me.

 

PvP - Prior to 1.3, I was a gunnery commando. It sucked having to be a standing turret, but the damage was good. After 1.3, I noticed my DPS sucked. I went to Assault and my DPS was much much better. I am 100% in belief that assault is the way to go for PvP right now.

 

PvE - I am running PvE as assault right now, but I have seen many a posts saying the gunnery is still the way to go. That said.. does anyone have a great build to share? Is there a cookie cutter gunnery spec these days?

 

Gear/Stats - We are running EC SM right now. I am full Rakata with head and legs BH and my MH is my War Hero canon. Fully buffed, I was sitting close to 2200 aim. From what I read, but not confirmed, 2100 Aim is the soft cap and after that, you start seeing diminshing returns in Aim. Can anyone confirm this? When upgrading to BH gear from Rakata, I have noticed a couple things. 1) I lose a ton of accuracy 2) I tend to lose Aim as well. In terms of crit and the mythical 30% Cap... I read that it's not a total of 30% that is the cap. It's 30% in each of the stats you get crit from. Crit tiself is an addition of crit from aim, from crit itself, etc. I read that the cap for each of these is 30% and not the total crit value. I'm floating around 38% right now in crit. 75% multipiplier. Where do I get the accuracy that I'm losing? I don't remember if Gunnery adds accuracy anywhere that assault does not. Being that accuracy is #2 behind AIM, I'm surprised we lose so much upgrading from Rakata to BH. Back to the aim cap... I can understand if there is diminishing returns at 2100 for AIM... maybe that's why BW lowers our AIM value in BH gear.

 

Inputs? Suggestions?

 

PvP- Most people do consider assault to be better, but Gunnery is just as good. I always ran Gunnery because I used to do a lot of PvE also and never felt like respecing. I still do Gunnery, even in Ranked Warzones, and I'm normally one of the top dps on the team. The other day in a Ranked Civil I was top damage at 676k, so Gunnery is still good too.

 

PvE - I haven't done much PvE in over a month and a half now, but we had downed SM EC within 3 days of release and were working on HM EC, so I at least have a little bit of experience. My regular gear was full Rakata with Black Hole Earpiece (this will be your largest aim increase from Rakata to BH, so get the earpiece first.). I never did bother to augment my stuff, other than my Rakata relics, but post 1.3 it's so easy to augment items I would suggest augmenting everything. Black Hole Annihilator's Implants give a pretty big power increase over the Rakata implants, so I would suggest getting those also.

 

As for Accuracy, you want your base accuracy to be 104%. If you're lacking, I suggest checking mods/enhancements in some of your Rakata gear and making a few changes while still keeping as much of the other stats as you can. I normally found that I was right at 101 or 102% without even really trying though, so you shouldn't be too far off of that mark.

[LagunaD]

As for Accuracy, you want your base accuracy to be 104%.

 

Where does this number come from? I don't believe it's correct.

[ElJako]

Where does this number come from? I don't believe it's correct.

 

I checked up on it again to make sure, and you were right. It comes from this site:http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1117292-Arsenal-Bounty-Hunter-Are-YOU-Doing-It-Right

 

This guide was made pre 1.3, so not really sure how it compares now. However, at the time the writer stated that HIS accuracy was 104, with a tech accuracy of 114, but you only needed a tech accuracy of 108 (or 98 base accuracy) to never miss with your tech abilities. So yeah, I was wrong. Thanks for catching it for me!

[LagunaD]

This guide was made pre 1.3, so not really sure how it compares now. However, at the time the writer stated that HIS accuracy was 104, with a tech accuracy of 114, but you only needed a tech accuracy of 108 (or 98 base accuracy) to never miss with your tech abilities. So yeah, I was wrong. Thanks for catching it for me!

 

Sorry to say, but this is incorrect too.

 

Bosses have 10% melee/ranged avoidance. They have 0% tech avoidance, so your tech abilities will never miss, even without a single point of Accuracy.

 

You want 110% Ranged Special Accuracy, which ensures that your important ranged attacks (Full Auto, High Impact Bolt) will never be avoided.

Edited July 14, 2012 by LagunaD

[ArchangelLBC]

Where does this number come from? I don't believe it's correct.

 

Keep in mind that that guide was written by a merc which means he has to worry about offhand hits on unload. For that reason Aerro went with more accuracy to guarantee the offhand ticks of Unload hit.

 

PvP - Prior to 1.3, I was a gunnery commando. It sucked having to be a standing turret, but the damage was good. After 1.3, I noticed my DPS sucked. I went to Assault and my DPS was much much better. I am 100% in belief that assault is the way to go for PvP right now.

 

I didn't even start PVPing till after 1.3, but yeah assault definitely performs better for me. That being said I'll only respec when it's relatively cheap. Once the price goes up I'm gonna just stick with gunnery and deal. You still get decent burst. It just has a much longer setup, which is annoying but what are you gonna do?

 

Gear/Stats - We are running EC SM right now. I am full Rakata with head and legs BH and my MH is my War Hero canon. Fully buffed, I was sitting close to 2200 aim. From what I read, but not confirmed, 2100 Aim is the soft cap and after that, you start seeing diminshing returns in Aim. Can anyone confirm this? When upgrading to BH gear from Rakata, I have noticed a couple things. 1) I lose a ton of accuracy 2) I tend to lose Aim as well. In terms of crit and the mythical 30% Cap... I read that it's not a total of 30% that is the cap. It's 30% in each of the stats you get crit from. Crit tiself is an addition of crit from aim, from crit itself, etc. I read that the cap for each of these is 30% and not the total crit value. I'm floating around 38% right now in crit. 75% multipiplier. Where do I get the accuracy that I'm losing? I don't remember if Gunnery adds accuracy anywhere that assault does not. Being that accuracy is #2 behind AIM, I'm surprised we lose so much upgrading from Rakata to BH. Back to the aim cap... I can understand if there is diminishing returns at 2100 for AIM... maybe that's why BW lowers our AIM value in BH gear.

 

Keep in mind that there is a black hole piece which you can buy for 50 BH commendations that has a 41 power/57 accuracy enhancement. Additionally the Black Hole implants have 71 power and 57 accuracy. Use the implants, and I personally am using 3 of the power/accuracy enhancements in Rakata shells. The other two body pieces and the weapon should feature the BH Crit/Surge enhancements (found in the BH Helmet). That should get you to 100% accuracy or so close it makes no difference. In my opinion it's not worth going below 75% surge to get that extra little bit of accuracy if you're already well over 99%

 

The mods in all the BH gear (by which I mean the specific item modification item called a mod) all have 53 accuracy 32 endurance and 41 Power or Crit (based on the enhancement in the same piece). While you do lose 8 aim from the DPS Rakata Armorings, you gain 30 power or 30 Crit over the Rakata ones and that trade off is 100% worth it.

 

For Crit, I feel that 35% crit unbuffed is about where you wanna be. Any more and you're wasting spots that could be spent on Power. Depending on who you ask anything over 30% is really too much, so I suggest you try it out. Luckily you can also get BH Power/Surge enhancements so pick whichever suits you the most.

[Boufsa]

FYI I already finished EC HM with 99.87% accuracy and 32.3% crit unbuffed. With those two stats as they are, I searched first to maximize aim and second to maximize power with the folowing rule: 15 power points are better than 10 aim points. As a consequence I used aim augments, but went for +53aim/+41power modification rather that the +68aim/+12power ones. I also had to switch some crit/surge & accuracy/power sophistication for power/surge ones.

 

On the operation training dummy I made 1612 DPS on a 6min fight with all buffs & rakata stimpack + rakata doping & campaign power relic

Edited July 16, 2012 by Boufsa

[ArchangelLBC]

Hard to compare since you haven't filled out your skill tree so AMR isn't giving you the 9% more aim that you're due, but I'd still remove all those power augments and replace them with aim. The small crit boost from aim is worth the very small bonus damage loss from not using power. You don't get even 1 bonus damage from using power augments over aim augments but you easily get a 1% crit rate.

Here's my profile for comparison

[Boufsa]

Hard to compare since you haven't filled out your skill tree so AMR isn't giving you the 9% more aim that you're due, but I'd still remove all those power augments and replace them with aim. The small crit boost from aim is worth the very small bonus damage loss from not using power. You don't get even 1 bonus damage from using power augments over aim augments but you easily get a 1% crit rate.

 

Yeah that's right, aim augment are definetely better than power augments for a commando, there are several topics about it, and the ultimate demonstration is here:

[ChrisMattar]

I am assault spec for both pve and PVC although many suggested thAt gunnery is the way to go in pve as assault sucks there is there any truth to that? I feel far more comfortable in assault. Would gunnery give me more dps?

[ArchangelLBC]

I am assault spec for both pve and PVC although many suggested thAt gunnery is the way to go in pve as assault sucks there is there any truth to that? I feel far more comfortable in assault. Would gunnery give me more dps?

 

Short answer is yes.

 

Long answer is that Assault is good in PVP because it has good front loaded burst, and access to a snare that doesn't require self rooting. However it's ammo management is actually pretty poor, as is it's sustained DPS (by comparison).

 

On the other hand all of Gunnery's weaknesses in PVP, self rooting long cast times and back loaded burst, don't matter in PVE and all of Gunnery's upsides really start to shine.

 

The problem is that in PVP you're looking to a lot of damage right now, preferably in a way that isn't susceptible to interrupts, whereas in PVE you're looking for a lot of damage for 6 minutes straight with no real downtime to recharge.

[Scoob]

assault spec is just as viable and in fact has the potential to do MORE sustained dps in pve then gunnery...why? the maneuverability of assault spec is the huge plus. Assault specced commandos can dps on the move, whereas gunnery is mostly stationary and therefore problematic in alot of the operation boss encounters in the game (everyone think of Toth and Zorn)

 

Another thing to look at is tho ammo usage is a concern, its still manageable in assault spec. I've personally tested dps using both gunnery and assault and I find assault packing more of a punch and easier to manage ammo.

 

The ONLY reason why I feel assault spec is seen as 'bad' in pve is because it has no real value to the team save its dps. Most people and groups look only for what can you do for the team? As in, what debuffs can you offer, GRAV round is that debuff gunnery specced commandos have going for them...Assault spec is purely what I like to call a selfish dps build...it does dps, alot of it, but thats it...it doesn't give fancy debuffs, it just packs a big punch, which when dealing with enrage timers... imho, dps is the main reason we take well geared dps...so we don't hit those timers... their 'utility' though helpful shouldn't be the deciding factor as who should be let in, assault spec is slightly better or just as good as Gunnery spec if you are looking at dps

[oaceen]

Another thing to look at is tho ammo usage is a concern, its still manageable in assault spec. I've personally tested dps using both gunnery and assault and I find assault packing more of a punch and easier to manage ammo.

could you explain how you manage ammo in assault? i love assault, but i am consistently under 8 ammo pretty much all the time compared to gunnery where i find it difficult to even drop below 8 (and practically never use recharge cells)

[Llama-Eight]

assault spec is just as viable and in fact has the potential to do MORE sustained dps in pve then gunnery...why? the maneuverability of assault spec is the huge plus. Assault specced commandos can dps on the move, whereas gunnery is mostly stationary and therefore problematic in alot of the operation boss encounters in the game (everyone think of Toth and Zorn)

In my experience (SM & HM EC most weeks) as long as the tanks are keeping Toth & Zorn in decent positions (ie, not too close to each other so they self-buff & in fairly static positions so that a Gunnery commando can find a spot ~30m away) this is rarely an issue.

 

The only annouance is the red reticles/spikes, there Assault would be able to consistantly keep on damaging, as gunnery, I'm forced to either use the skill that gives an instant cast, or use Hammer Shot/one of my other instant casts (such as HiB or Demo Round if they're off cooldown).

 

But for most bosses, the mobility that Gunnery is denied isn't an issue, and the only one where it is is Toth & Zorn & it's never really been much of an issue for us (though I'd prefer Charged Bolts to be instant cast with a 2+ sec cooldown).

 

I would like to try Assault spec in Ops, but my guild is used to me being there adding the debuff, which frees up any Gunslingers to not have to use their debuff.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Llama-Eight

[ArchangelLBC]

assault spec is just as viable and in fact has the potential to do MORE sustained dps in pve then gunnery...why? the maneuverability of assault spec is the huge plus. Assault specced commandos can dps on the move, whereas gunnery is mostly stationary and therefore problematic in alot of the operation boss encounters in the game (everyone think of Toth and Zorn)

 

Frankly this is very disingenuous. The only real DPS on the move that Assault has over Gunnery are the two DoTs. Incendiary Round is a pretty high ammo cost to keep the DoT up 100% of the time and Plasma Cell Hammer Shot works out to about 700 DPS last I heard. Otherwise your instant abilities to use on the move are High Impact Bolt and Assault Plastique vs High Impact Bolts and Demo Round. The crit multiplier bonus to High Impact Bolt for Assault is balanced out by the 30% increase to ALL HiBs done by Gunnery (so our non crits hit harder than yours), and Demo Round does a lot more damage than Assault Plastique. Otherwise though Assault is honestly just as stationary as Gunnery because you need to use Full Auto and Charged Bolts to reset HiB neither of which you can cast on the move. Additionally, while Assault can reset HiB, Gunnery can reset Full Auto, and remember that Gunnery Full Auto hits a lot harder than Assault Full Auto (and a lot harder than High Impact Bolt for that matter).

 

This also pretty much ignores the fact that mobility just isn't much of an issue in most boss fights. You said a lot of operations bosses and mentioned Toth and Zorn, but it's actually possible to stay mostly stationary for most of that fight. There's actually a spot in the back corner where often red circles don't pop at all, but even when you do have to dodge red circles, the DPS gained on the move by Assault is pretty minimal overall (it's not like you spend the whole of that phase dodging). Toth and Zorn is a bad example anyway depending on your group since there's an issue with Raid DPS being too high and requiring pauses so fearful has a chance to wear off of your tanks before the swap, and of course if there IS a screw up and you get fearful Assault is MUCH more dangerous because those DoTs will get reflected right back at you. Firebrand and Stormcaller you are pretty much completely stationary for DPS outside of the brief run back to the tanks after the shield phases which if there's really a concern I can throw a sticky on the move back and get about the same DPS as your DoTs (which I never use sticky otherwise so there's no chance it's on cooldown). The minefield is pretty much stationary from a DPS perspective as well, as is, in all honesty, Kephess. Yes you do a lot of moving but most of that is done during non-DPS phases.

 

In other operations: In KP, you don't have to move for Bonethrasher, you don't have to move much for Jarg and Sorno (unless you get pulled in by Jarg), you have to avoid the odd red circle for Foeman Crusher, if you're DPSing Fabricator you never have to move while if you're on the puzzle then taking time to run forward and DPS is a waste of time when you could be getting that puzzle reset faster, and you never have to move on Karagga except to avoid the Vortex move, which actually has a minimum range so if you're staying away from everyone you can often still hit Karagga just fine. For EV, on Annihilator you have to do some avoidance for red circles but it's very minimal and move to stack up on healers unless you position yourself at the edge of where the healing puddle is going to be (assuming you're using a sage). Gharj you have to move a LOT as you switch platforms, but most of that transition phase you're either facing away from him or actually out of range. I mostly focus on platforming correctly here. Minimal DPS gain for Assault. On the pylons you never have to move, on the Infernal Council you never have to move, and for Soa the only time you really have to move is to go get your lightning ball (shouldn't be DPSing Soa much here anyway), or run in range of the mindtrap if it spawns on the opposite side of the room (both specs have to do this).

 

So that's 1/14 operations bosses that require a lot of moving 3 that require some mandatory red circle dodging. The other 10 you never really have to move at all. Gunnery > Assault here.

 

Another thing to look at is tho ammo usage is a concern, its still manageable in assault spec. I've personally tested dps using both gunnery and assault and I find assault packing more of a punch and easier to manage ammo.

 

Can you provide your tests cause I'm just not seeing it, unless you're just using a lot of Hammer Shot. Yes Hammer Shot is better DPS in Assault than it is in Gunnery but it's still not exactly optimal like at all. Perfectly fine in PVP, especially with the snare, but not what you want to be using a lot in Operations. I definitely don't understand how you're finding Assault EASIER to manage ammo in without Cell Charger. You realize with a 4 piece set bonus our High Impact bolts are free right? Please provide your test logs along with gear and rotation.

 

The ONLY reason why I feel assault spec is seen as 'bad' in pve is because it has no real value to the team save its dps. Most people and groups look only for what can you do for the team? As in, what debuffs can you offer, GRAV round is that debuff gunnery specced commandos have going for them...Assault spec is purely what I like to call a selfish dps build...it does dps, alot of it, but thats it...it doesn't give fancy debuffs, it just packs a big punch, which when dealing with enrage timers... imho, dps is the main reason we take well geared dps...so we don't hit those timers... their 'utility' though helpful shouldn't be the deciding factor as who should be let in, assault spec is slightly better or just as good as Gunnery spec if you are looking at dps

 

Overlooking Armor Debuff from grav round is a pretty big mistake, especially since it would help all other DPS (including your own if someone else is using an armor debuff). It's one of those things that instantly brings an entire raid's DPS up which has a much better chance of pushing your raid through enrage timers if that's proving an issue for you, and as I think I've showed Assault DPS isn't actually better than Gunnery DPS in endgame raids. I guarantee you if it was that more people would be using it. The doubters would have been silenced by someone mathing it out and showing it. If you think you're that person then please provide your logs and your math and show us all.

Edited August 31, 2012 by ArchangelLBC