Mouseover Healing

[Katherik]

You think the job of a healer is more difficult than the job of a dps player based on the fact that we have to click between targets?

Yeah, because as we all know, DPS swapping between a few targets here and there is the same thing as healing 16 people. Please. I MT'ed, healed, and DPS'ed the final 3 raids in WoW's Wrath of the Lich King. Don't tell me that DPS targeting is the same. It's much easier. And those "extra clicks" make us heal twice as slow as one click. Just because it might be milliseconds slower doesn't negate the double amount of time.

 

I'm all for UI customization. It was one of the things I delighted in with WoW - not only for functionality but also for aesthetics. UI modding is just plain fun.

THIS I totally agree with. Not one piece of my UI (apart from the cursor) in WoW was the default interface.

[qqemokitty]

Yeah, because as we all know, DPS swapping between a few targets here and there is the same thing as healing 16 people. Please. I MT'ed, healed, and DPS'ed the final 3 raids in WoW's Wrath of the Lich King. Don't tell me that DPS targeting is the same. It's much easier. And those "extra clicks" make us heal twice as slow as one click. Just because it might be milliseconds slower doesn't negate the double amount of time.

 

If multiple targets for DPS appeared in a neat little grid like my raid frames do, it would be as easy for me to dps multiple targets as it is for me to heal multiple players. But I am, as I have said, a long time healer. I've never played a tank and I am terrible at dps. For me, healing IS easier than dpsing.

 

THIS I totally agree with. Not one piece of my UI (apart from the cursor) in WoW was the default interface.

 

Did you know you could even change the cursor?!

[kaelesto]

I guess I am confused. If you are mouseover healing, how can you, at the same time, also be using the mouse to move the camera around, any more so than if you were using the mouse to target the player?

You can't. Like I said, that's not something that can reasonably be mitigated - it's just something that's part of healing that DPS don't have to deal with.

 

In either instance, your mouse cursor is over a player frame. In either case, you can hold down your right mouse button to move the camera view without compromising anything.

No, actually, if your mouse is over a player frame, you can't rightclick to move the camera - it brings up a menu.

 

Mouseover healing is (to me) the same amount of "actions" as standard hotkey healing (the method I employ).

 

Mouseover: Put cursor over desired frame, push desired hotkey/mouse button, heal casts, put cursor over next frame, rinse repeat

 

Standard: Click on desired frame, push desired hotkey/mouse button, heal casts, click next frame, rinse repeat

How exactly do you click on the desired frame without putting your cursor over it first?

 

The only different is the target swap. And if there is a target I need to keep targeted, I use the focus frame. (But holy moly, for the love of all things, pretty please give me ToT and ToFT )

That means you can't use the focus frame for e.g. your tank. A lot of healers like to target the boss and focus the tank, or vice versa. And what if there are two targets that need monitoring - a 2-boss situation, for instance? Or an add that needs to be CC'd or interrupted in a fight with a boss whose casts need to be monitored? Any way you slice it, targeting players to heal them is tying up one of your limited (two) discretionary frames with duplicate information that's already displayed in your ops window.

 

Also I have a migraine right now so my brain powers are a bit muffled.

 

I have to admit, I have been healing a long time and am very much a creature of habit in games and in life. I don't see any benefit to mouseover healing over the standard method aside from maintaining a target. Now, clickcasting actually does reduce an action, by placing the cast in the same action as the "hover" or "click on" of mouseover or standard casting methods.

 

tl;dr: unicorns, i love them.

Mouseover healing is exactly the same as click-casting except that I "click" with my keyboard. In games where it's an option, I use a combination of both to avoid needing the modifier keys I can't hit - there are some spells I like to cast righthanded and others I like to cast lefthanded. But the action for either is exactly the same: place mouse over frame, press one button. You have to press two buttons in sequence for the same result.

 

(migraines suck. Also, I too like unicorns.)

[Katherik]

Did you know you could even change the cursor?!

Actually, come to think of it, I DID use a cursor addon that put a spherical cooldown around it -- GCD and others, each with their own colors. It was pretty sweet, but I realized that I always had to look at the cursor. It helped with GCDs while healing though.

[qqemokitty]

You can't. Like I said, that's not something that can reasonably be mitigated - it's just something that's part of healing that DPS don't have to deal with.

 

 

No, actually, if your mouse is over a player frame, you can't rightclick to move the camera - it brings up a menu.

 

 

How exactly do you click on the desired frame without putting your cursor over it first?

 

 

That means you can't use the focus frame for e.g. your tank. A lot of healers like to target the boss and focus the tank, or vice versa. And what if there are two targets that need monitoring - a 2-boss situation, for instance? Or an add that needs to be CC'd or interrupted in a fight with a boss whose casts need to be monitored? Any way you slice it, targeting players to heal them is tying up one of your limited (two) discretionary frames with duplicate information that's already displayed in your ops window.

 

 

Mouseover healing is exactly the same as click-casting except that I "click" with my keyboard. In games where it's an option, I use a combination of both to avoid needing the modifier keys I can't hit - there are some spells I like to cast righthanded and others I like to cast lefthanded. But the action for either is exactly the same: place mouse over frame, press one button. You have to press two buttons in sequence for the same result.

 

(migraines suck. Also, I too like unicorns.)

 

 

Okay, well, yes to all that. Both of us have to move the cursor off the target to move our camera.

 

Yes my cursor needs to be over the unit frame click it. BUT. It's not like that takes 2 motions. It's one swoop. I feel like I need hand gestures and I said "zooom" along with them. But you can't see me doing that. So just imagine it. xD

 

I totally love that we are debating this and it's fun and we will probably never agree or change but we don't have to be jerks about it. The magic of reasonable discourse.

 

I mean ultimately it all comes down to personal style. I agree that mouseover healing will be very efficient for many players and that it IS something that should be available through interface modification. I just don't feel that it is something Bioware needs to implement as part of the base UI.

 

I kinda like the concept of dual targeting though I've never had the opportunity to try it.

 

The only thing making this migraine bearable is the fact that I am talking about this game instead of actually doing work.

[necis_]

Really? You cannot heal without it?

 

Its like that one extra little click is too much for some people...

 

Obviously you haven't played a healer in SWTOR, as clicking the UI is half the battle of someone not dying.

[Maxvla]

One thing that mouseovers help with is freeing up your target, so if you are needed to interrupt a spell or are watching for say a 20% enrage, you can do that while not interrupting the healing process. With the way it is now, I have no idea how the fight is progressing until the boss dies unless I change targets and back.

[Forcemuffin]

So, What you're asking for is an in game Healbot/Decursive?

 

I hope, unlike in the WoW boards, posts like this get reported and infracted for the spam they are.

[qqemokitty]

I hope, unlike in the WoW boards, posts like this get reported and infracted for the spam they are.

 

 

What's really sad about posts like that is that it shows the poster clearly has no idea what addons or macros are for, or how they function. Yes, Healbot and Decursive did too much.... back in 2005. That was a long time ago, and their current incarnations in WoW are nothing like those days of yore.

 

It's the same amount of Facepalm that I feel when people say that macros are cheating or that using an addon like a threat meter is equivalent to botting.

 

Ignorance must be bliss, or something.

[Xanderian]

One thing that mouseovers help with is freeing up your target, so if you are needed to interrupt a spell or are watching for say a 20% enrage, you can do that while not interrupting the healing process. With the way it is now, I have no idea how the fight is progressing until the boss dies unless I change targets and back.

 

This is what makes me not want to heal in this game. I along with many others came from WoW where I was doing heroic 25 man content and hardcore pvp. I used healbot, power aura and a few others. I can actually get along without most of it BUT what some people don't seem to get through their heads it's not just the extra click or keybind. Its the targeting. I tired to heal a warzone and it was such a bad experience I've just about given up.

 

How are you going to heal in pvp? Try to heal & CC/Stun in a small cluster of 4-5 people in a vicinity. I go to heal a friendly and my target/focus switches to that guy, I try and reacquire my original hostile target who is all over the screen with target nearest and I get the guy at full heal who I end blowing my shiv move on while the original enemy was down 85% all the meanwhile I got some other guy trying to tear me up. It's critical that not only do I heal but help my team in dps, the time lost in having to find my target is the difference in win or lose.

 

Several of us at work are playing this game, the dps guys are all pretty much ok with the UI maybe some better CD timers would be nice. Those of us that heal all pretty much hate it so much that we are all going to dps but I LOVE to heal. This UI makes me not want to heal.

 

Maybe I could deal with it in a raid situation where I can set focus on a boss but in PvP I just dont see this as feasible. So once I go through all the content as DPS. I'll be leaving the game because I want to heal in the end game. Being a healer while leveling usually sucks in most games anyway. So if bioware is paying attention they will fix this quick. Otherwise, the long term revenue of subs is going to evaporate fast. You got me hooked now bioware but you need to keep me.

 

I want to beat encounters and not fight with a UI.

[Flooz]

I agree. Mouseover spells are pretty essential and I was very surprised to not see it. I used to mouseover heal everything in wow, until I got a gaming mouse and used an addon called clique.

 

Once I get things going UI wise, I will enjoy more of this game. If I don't, I will probably just do something else. I think they underestimated UI importance a little bit.

[defileabowl]

Kids these days are so cute with their WoW raid talk. If u people think mouseover healing isint imperative il let u have my lv 80 cleric inquisitor on eq2. Activate the the account and run one instance and u will learn real quick what healing means. But if you have only played a healer on wow i recommend u bring some Vaseline. Edited December 22, 2011 by defileabowl

[Shainra]

I would love to see some better Healing UI added, mouseover (and [shift]) macros at the forefront, closely followed by actual visible buffs/debuffs on the raid bars (right now my dispel ability is nearly worthless since I'd need a darn magnifying glass to even come close to being able to see the icons on the bars).

 

I apologize if the following has already been mentioned in the thread, I read through about the first 7 pages before posting and didn't see it mentioned.

 

That said, some people believe that having well built UIs that utilize even such a basic macro like on-mouseover is unfair to those who don't know how to use it, etc. All I have to say to that is, it's unfair not to. There are plenty of gaming peripherals that allow for the making of macros outside of the game, in fact there's a set of a mouse and keyboard specifically designed for TOR that have extensive macro-making capability! When it comes right down to it, it's actually unfair not to have basic macro function in the game because it gives a distinct advantage to those who are willing to spend a $100 on a specialized mouse or keyboard. I don't say it for myself, as I'm one of those terrible people who happens to use a Naga. I just wanted to point out, to all the naysayers, that the possibility already exists. Instead of giving an unfair advantage to some, basic healing UI function like mouseover should be added directly into the game.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Shainra

[Wildviolence]

This is what makes me not want to heal in this game. I along with many others came from WoW where I was doing heroic 25 man content and hardcore pvp. I used healbot, power aura and a few others. I can actually get along without most of it BUT what some people don't seem to get through their heads it's not just the extra click or keybind. Its the targeting. I tired to heal a warzone and it was such a bad experience I've just about given up.

 

How are you going to heal in pvp? Try to heal & CC/Stun in a small cluster of 4-5 people in a vicinity. I go to heal a friendly and my target/focus switches to that guy, I try and reacquire my original hostile target who is all over the screen with target nearest and I get the guy at full heal who I end blowing my shiv move on while the original enemy was down 85% all the meanwhile I got some other guy trying to tear me up. It's critical that not only do I heal but help my team in dps, the time lost in having to find my target is the difference in win or lose.

 

Several of us at work are playing this game, the dps guys are all pretty much ok with the UI maybe some better CD timers would be nice. Those of us that heal all pretty much hate it so much that we are all going to dps but I LOVE to heal. This UI makes me not want to heal.

 

Maybe I could deal with it in a raid situation where I can set focus on a boss but in PvP I just dont see this as feasible. So once I go through all the content as DPS. I'll be leaving the game because I want to heal in the end game. Being a healer while leveling usually sucks in most games anyway. So if bioware is paying attention they will fix this quick. Otherwise, the long term revenue of subs is going to evaporate fast. You got me hooked now bioware but you need to keep me.

 

I want to beat encounters and not fight with a UI.

 

Amen.

 

My own most recent experience is healing end-game raids in WoW, BC through Cata. No healbot automation, don't try to lay that BS at my feet. Just raid frame UIs to display health bars and vital information (ie. critical buffs/debuffs and timers) where I can easily see it, and mouse-over casting macros, so I can quickly and intuitively respond.

 

I was able to spend most of my time looking at and playing the game itself, not hunting and clicking through UI bars to achieve what I wanted. I could keep heals rolling off a tank, maintain CC or interupts on a mob, debuffs on the party would barely have a chance to tick and you'd never see me standing in fire because I was too busy squinting at icons to maintain situational awareness.

 

And no, this was not spamming one uber-macro keybind, I still had to think about every cast and perform moment to moment triage. Lttle heal. Big heal. DOT on a DPSer, but he can wait, he's third priority. 5 seconds left on the CC. Things are stabilized, regen some mana...KICK THAT SPELL NOW NOW NOW.

 

By comparison, healing in SWTOR up to the 30s has been a miserable and un-enjoyable experience. Maybe it's just my hardware (an 'internet browser' mouse and a stock keyboard), but I have ANTI-mouseover: if my cursor is left hovering over a portrait/UI nameplate after I click on it to select a target, my keybinds stop responding. So to heal, I'm like a boxer sparing with my UI, jabbing, ducking and weaving to achieve my desired result. It's getting very old, very fast.

 

It cannot be stated enough: we're not whining for automation, we're gripping about targeting. For you DPSers spouting L2PLAY at us, imagine if you had to maneuver your targeting reticle with the arrow keys, like old FPS games that didn't support mice. Stop your complaining, mouse aiming is a crutch for bads, I used to dominate multiplayer Doom with just the keyboard, your arguments about being able to quickly swap targets are invalid.

 

It's really very simple. If healing means spending more time fighting with the UI to get feedback about health and debuffs (and then acting upon that information), then it's more frustration than fun. And if frustration reigns, then subscriptions drop and SWTOR soon withers and dies like so many other MMOs since WoW began (which, let's face it, is the benchmark). Yes yes yes, the game was just released, big changes are coming, great things are planned. And soon, we promise.

 

We'll see.

 

That said, some people believe that having well built UIs that utilize even such a basic macro like on-mouseover is unfair to those who don't know how to use it, etc. All I have to say to that is, it's unfair not to. There are plenty of gaming peripherals that allow for the making of macros outside of the game, in fact there's a set of a mouse and keyboard specifically designed for TOR that have extensive macro-making capability! When it comes right down to it, it's actually unfair not to have basic macro function in the game because it gives a distinct advantage to those who are willing to spend a $100 on a specialized mouse or keyboard. I don't say it for myself, as I'm one of those terrible people who happens to use a Naga. I just wanted to point out, to all the naysayers, that the possibility already exists. Instead of giving an unfair advantage to some, basic healing UI function like mouseover should be added directly into the game.

 

Bingo. It knocks any argument that 'macros are cheating' into a cocked hat, as the Brits say.

[kaelesto]

Kids these days are so cute with their WoW raid talk. If u people think mouseover healing isint imperative il let u have my lv 80 cleric inquisitor on eq2. Activate the the account and run one instance and u will learn real quick what healing means. But if you have only played a healer on wow i recommend u bring some Vaseline.

I played EQ too, kid. You're not the only one with an 80+ cleric. And as far as difficulty, I'm sorry to break it to you, but EQ healing has nothing on WoW's current play.

Edited December 23, 2011 by kaelesto

[ErrantMercenary]

Kids these days are so cute with their WoW raid talk. If u people think mouseover healing isint imperative il let u have my lv 80 cleric inquisitor on eq2. Activate the the account and run one instance and u will learn real quick what healing means. But if you have only played a healer on wow i recommend u bring some Vaseline.

 

Most of us that made the conscious decision to heal in SWTOR have done so because we are legacy healers.

 

Stop. Just stop. I don't care where you came from or what you did back then, because if you really want to talk about it, back in 1999, I had to stare at my spellbook (which took up the whole screen, making me oblivious to danger) to regenerate mana, and I could only have eight spells memorized at any given time and I had to clickheal.

 

 

But guess what, it's been twelve (almost thirteen) years, and MMO gaming has made strides since then, the reasoning here is that TOR's UI takes significant backwards strides in how a healer interacts with the game, and while we're all okay with TOR being different than other MMOs, imagine if a DPS class had to retarget the boss EVERY time he wanted to use an ability. All the sudden the game isn't about the player's ability to make decisions, but the player's ability to force the computer to interpret those decisions, which is decidedly not fun.

[Amiracle]

Hmm, when in a group situation I don't see a need.

 

Raids?

 

Depends on your role.

 

If you are the tank healer then mouse over wont do anything.

 

If you are on raid heals then most of your helas will be aoe.

 

And in a raid situation I have yet to see a raid only bring one healer.

 

Not sure why everyone is dieing unless you only raid when you are the only healer.

 

Whats the advantage again?

 

If a fraction of a second is stopping you from keeping sme alive 2 things are happening.

 

The target is under geared, or you aren't paying attention to when you need to proactively prevent damage. Have yet to see a boss fight where you didn't know when the big whammy is going to come. In most games there are raid mods that flash a big message telling when the boss is going to the big ol aoe damage ability.

 

And more people don't play healers because more often than its a very unrewarding role that most players take for granted.

[FilsAzukul]

For literally decades, one of the key tenets of UI Design is to enable the user to accomplish their task - whatever that may be - in as few clicks as possible. This bizarre pseudo-bragging about how so-and-so used to heal back on [insert MMO here] by painstakingly building an idol to the UI gods out of leftover electronics every time they wanted to cast a spell is nonsense and I wholeheartedly ridicule it. The point of a User Interface is for the user to be able to interface with it. More steps - or steps which are more difficult or annoying - to accomplish the same task is not better. Telling us how you used to heal on Game X and why that is the only correct way for a real healer to heal is not merely pointless, it is anti-point. It buries useful discussion, and so let's instead bury it here and now.

 

Now, one of the key tenets of Game Systems Design is that if your players are looking for a way to avoid performing a function of your game, then they are telling you that they are not having fun doing it. It is simply that the frustration of dealing with a UI that is not intuitive to you is not fun. Those people who enjoyed healing by rubbing two sticks together enjoyed it because (as stupid as it seems to us) it was intuitive to them; they understood it and could do it efficiently.

 

This, however, is not the case with most people. Choosing targets efficiently on-the-fly while simultaneously watching cooldowns, resources, buffs, debuffs, and target health levels is complicated, but in a way that is deep and rewards intelligent thought. Having to take an extra second every time you click a new target to see if your click registered or not while additionally losing your previous target and all that information listed in the previous sentence that was displayed for them is complicated in the bad way, the way that does not reward intelligent thought and in fact has nothing to do with thought at all.

 

 

TL,DR: Complexity is rewarding only if it engages a player's mind. Adding extra clicks does not engage your mind; there is no decision making. Complexity that is mindless is never rewarding, but rather frustrating.

Edited December 23, 2011 by FilsAzukul

[Amiracle]

Alittle advice to buffing.

 

Buff yourself first. When you see your buff wearing off you know everyone elses will soon follow. Rebuff.

[FilsAzukul]

Alittle advice to buffing.

 

Buff yourself first. When you see your buff wearing off you know everyone elses will soon follow. Rebuff.

 

If you're only talking about long duration group buffs, then obviously yes, that is common sense and should go without saying.

 

However, this does nothing to help monitoring short duration buffs, such as buffs from Relics, ability procs, enemy buffs, etc. All of these buffs can go up many times during a fight, come down quickly, and often are crucial to the outcome of a battle. You have to know when an enemy is using their temporary damage buff, when his friend is using her damage reduction buff, when someone has a shield or a HoT on them, etc. And the same goes for debuffs.

[supermark]

This whole thread is dumb. There is no point in trying to convince somebody that their opinion is wrong.

 

I personally like mouseover.

 

If you don't, fine.

 

Please don't come in here telling people they are wrong about something that you may find "pointless."

[Lazzerswords]

i have healed in every game since everquest. i do not understand what is so hard for people to click heals. i have raid healed as a druid and knew when hots were needed and on who without healbot. the fact that you need a mouse over instead of clicking means you dont want to heal, you want to look around while the fight is going on. if you are not dedicated enough to play the class then dont heal. you are only hurting those who depend on you.

 

I stopped reading at everquest. Masochist and ocd comes to mind and that is why wow beat it so hard.

[Forcemuffin]

This whole thread is dumb. There is no point in trying to convince somebody that their opinion is wrong.

 

I personally like mouseover.

 

If you don't, fine.

 

Please don't come in here telling people they are wrong about something that you may find "pointless."

 

This post serves noone, because it's a strawman. Telling someone who equates mouseover healing to using addons that he's wrong isn't debunking an opinion, it's debunking a claim not proven by anything. aka, this isn't a subjective matter. Not everything is an opinion.

[JediDejay]

This is a no brainer. Add it as an option or add macros ASAP. Healing is no fun without it.

 

SWTOR already needs 20% more healers and has 3.25% less classes that can heal compared to wow, and no dual spec. Big fail.

[Couac]

Lets not start this. Just because you might not use it, doesnt make it less valid. Do you argue about people who use F keys to target? It is also a valid way to target that doesnt involve mouseclicking the frame.

 

One click for every heal adds up. Yes for one heal its not much....for 5 hours of raiding its a LOT. Some of us treasure our joints Ergonomics wise, mouseover healing is better on your body....therefore some people look at it as a no-brainer for a game to have it.

 

Spot on. I'd love to see the dpser who'd love to reclick the boss between every skill they use.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Couac