Operative DPS Uselss - Proof

[RendakFel]

Describe what do you do as dps operative in your RWZ group and why you can't be replaced with other dps.

 

What can you do other dps classes can't?

 

That will be perfect proof that spec isn't useles.

 

All of your attacks are tech, i.e. avoid shield mitigation.

[Daiyukie]

This is a perfect example of why I think good concealment operatives are few and far in between. Most seem so reliant on their opening, that they do not comprehend how to manage the duration of the fight. Did I say anywhere that he stunlock's targets (tanks), or anyone else to death? No. He mows through people because he effectively counters what they intend to do, before they do it. That, and managing his energy so that he doesn't resource starve himself = win. Shockingly, that's the secret to any other class.

 

I very rarely see him open from stealth on a single target twice.

 

Because relying on the class' STELLAR sustained damage is certainly the way to go. I assume he runs a Hybrid build with strong self-heals and can thus outlast the opponent (which is a great 1v1 spec, not arguing the contrary at all, I love it) but for actual pure 3/31/7 (and similar) damage builds, you just don't rely on sustained damage =p Rolling the wrong spec/class if you do.

[Achyllis]

What? who in his right mind balances the game around the lowest common denominator, which is forever lowering the bar so "Billy Bob" can click 1 button to victory.

 

/points at Sent/PT. Businesses like BW where investors want to make money apparently.

[RendakFel]

No, he's full concealment. Fairly certain he uses this build:

[Daiyukie]

No, he's full concealment. Fairly certain he uses this build:

 

That's... that's not a build, that's a 1.2 video that's proving what I said about crit strings. If everything hits high, absolutely, someone will go down. You'll notice that everything there is random highlights from all kinds of Warzones, not consistent smacking down during a Warzone. To highlight, it was 1.2, where consumables boosted burst and the PvP consumable added a lot of damage.

 

In 1.2 I hit a 4908 crit without using an adrenal, only a power relic, I was quite happy. That was also a one-time thing. If I spent a ridiculous amount of time getting perfect gear like I've planned out on Character Builder, I'd probably be able to see some 5k crits, sometimes, which would be awesome. Rolling the dice and hoping that everything hits high, however, isn't exactly skill is it?

 

The 1v4 was damn nice, but I gotta say a lot of the people killed were.. well... standing there doing nothing, so again, proves exactly what I said: You can down people when you can do whatever you want and everything crits, I fully agree =] Outside of those situations, which happen even less without the consumables we had, the damage is absolute ****.

 

-Edit- About the gear thing, I'm happy with my current stats too, I've done all I can with my BM-level gear and the upgrades I have planned are ridiculously tiny and time-consuming, so the motivation isn't there for the tiny payoff =] 1850 cunning, ~500 Power, 35% Crit, 78% Surge, ~1100 Expertise. You should grab his stats, I'd be curious to see them and what the difference is, because even if I did pull out random highlights, I've not seen above 5k crits on my Scrapper.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Daiyukie

[RendakFel]

Doh, here is the build. http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/imperial_agent/operative/#::e4f2e10fe3f19ef6ef8efdf2:

 

When we start rateds tonight i'll grab his stats. And yes, it is a 1.2 video, but honestly, his 1.3 stuff isn't much different.

Edited July 8, 2012 by RendakFel

[Daiyukie]

Doh, here is the build. http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/imperial_agent/operative/#::e4f2e10fe3f19ef6ef8efdf2:

 

That's certainly interesting, he doesn't take the only self-heal available and takes a small increase to Corrosive Dart damage and stealth detection instead of significantly reduced stun cooldown.

 

Hmm, strange indeed, as I'm sure I saw self-heals in that video, but regardless, with that build if everything crits, people hurt, but can still live. I've blown up lesser-geared Sorcs myself, it's about the only thing that feels good anymore (that and surprising the goddamn Pyro that always railshots my face off and just blowing her the hell up from stealth sometimes).

 

I'm healing a lot lately anyway, but I was just as disappointed as I thought I would be when I tried DPSing with my shiny new optimized gear a week or two ago. Highlights don't prove much except lucky crits give lots of damage, like I said, but I'd be curious to see his stats nonetheless.

 

The complaints people lodge are when versing either equal or higher-geared opponents you're quite useless as full DPS whereas other classes (those aren't in the same icky spot at least) can do fine because they at least have survivability options/utility options and not just lackluster damage.

[RendakFel]

That's certainly interesting, he doesn't take the only self-heal available and takes a small increase to Corrosive Dart damage and stealth detection instead of significantly reduced stun cooldown.

 

Hmm, strange indeed, as I'm sure I saw self-heals in that video, but regardless, with that build if everything crits, people hurt, but can still live. I've blown up lesser-geared Sorcs myself, it's about the only thing that feels good anymore (that and surprising the gosh darn Pyro that always railshots my face off and just blowing her the hell up from stealth sometimes).

 

I'm healing a lot lately anyway, but I was just as disappointed as I thought I would be when I tried DPSing with my shiny new optimized gear a week or two ago. Highlights don't prove much except lucky crits give lots of damage, like I said, but I'd be curious to see his stats nonetheless.

 

The complaints people lodge are when versing either equal or higher-geared opponents you're quite useless as full DPS whereas other classes (those aren't in the same icky spot at least) can do fine because they at least have survivability options/utility options and not just lackluster damage.

 

It's a recent change, since many games he spends hunting stealthers (assassin tanks attempting to solo tie us up at the middle on Civil war, or solo guard a node). I'm not going to sit here and tell you that a DPS operative is going to be viable instead of say, a marauder or a PT. What I will say is that the unique tools that a (good) concealment operative brings to the table works very well when paired up with said PT and said Marauder. Given the choice, i'd take a good conceal operative over an anni marauder, or a second PT (largely since im a PT). But i won't stack multiples until I have one of each on the roster.

 

If its credibility you want, all I can say is log on Po5 and ask around about <Old Republic War>, or just look in our server forums. Aside from that, im sitting at a 1971 rating with a 83 and 9 record. Sure, better records out there, but we hold our own. 3 of those losses were pugging healers, and 2 more were from the sweet voidstar RNG. 88 and 4 would look better, but such is life.

Edited July 8, 2012 by RendakFel

[Daiyukie]

It's a recent change, since many games he spends hunting stealthers (assassin tanks attempting to solo tie us up at the middle on Civil war, or solo guard a node). I'm not going to sit here and tell you that a DPS operative is going to be viable instead of say, a marauder or a PT. What I will say is that the unique tools that a (good) concealment operative brings to the table works very well when paired up with said PT and said Marauder.

 

If its credibility you want, all I can say is log on Po5 and ask around about <Old Republic War>, or just look in our server forums. Aside from that, im sitting at a 1971 rating with a 83 and 9 record. Sure, better records out there, but we hold our own. 3 of those losses were pugging healers, and 2 more were from the sweet voidstar RNG. 88 and 4 would look better, but such is life.

 

Oh for sure, a good Concealment Op can perform well within a good team. I have one that I respect, yet rarely see, on Begeren Colony that transferred with us from Lord Ieldis. Basically part of the Imperial A-team and he can blast people down. So can I, sometimes, but the complaint is that you just can't do it consistently nor can you do it in larger battles. Trying to wade through AoE to get at the healer/Merc/Sorc/Sniper in the back freecasting is ridiculous, for instance. Against a team that works well together, i.e. equal footing if you have a good team as well, it's just way too gimped as compared to a Sniper or a PT or a Marauder who CAN just wade through and harass, or the PT who can pull his target, or the Sniper who can just blast them anyway. It's needlessly difficult and RNG/gear dependant.

 

-Edit- Honestly, the damage is fine (if the stars align) I would much prefer a 2 second in-combat, unbreakable cloak (i.e. gap closer) than any change to damage. If not, give me something that allows for my next ability to auto-crit/DoTs to auto-crit to give my damage some consistency without changing the actual damage values. Class fixed, imo. Everytime I see an 800 damage hit on Shoot First I cry a little inside.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Daiyukie

[RendakFel]

I stand corrected, this is his current spec:

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/imperial_agent/operative/#::e4f2e10fe3f19ef6ef8efdf2:

 

As to his stats:

954 power, 1631 cunning, 36.80% crit, 79.37% multiplier, 1189 exp (with exotec stim)

 

He hasn't finished mod swapping yet either

Edited July 8, 2012 by RendakFel

[Dmasterr]

Aside the fact that i am not even remotely interested in teaching others how to play, the team strategy we use and change according to whatever i feel like, depends on subterfuge; so i am not going to start blabbing about what i do just to appease some forum ppl.

 

But since you were adamant that there was nothing an assassin can't do better than you, i will just say this : You can off-heal , assassins can not.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Qishari
quoted removed content

[dcgregorya]

I already done told you like 2 months ago that op DPS were one trick ponies that were severely gimped. WHY YOU NO BELIEVE ME?

 

But yeah, Operative DPS are bad and they serve no purpose other than finishing off someone else's kill once every few minutes. They have no utility at all due to their "amazing burst" that has been gimped to the point where there's at least 3 other builds with better burst and better sustained.

 

Of all the melee DPS they're the worst. Even pyro PTs who have almost no utility at all still have a taunt and grapple. Operative DPS have no knockback, pulls or pushes, no charges/leaps, no taunts, etc. Their best case DPS is less bursty than a marauder, Pyro PT, Merc PT, sniper (any build), etc. with far less sustained and less survivability. They have none of the utility a juggernaut has (AOE slow, push, CC immunity). I played one at 50 for a bit and did 'Ok' but compare to my other 4 50's I don't see any reason to play one since all my other ones are just better in every way.

Edited July 8, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Maxkardinal]

Aside the fact that i am not even remotely interested in teaching others how to play, the team strategy we use and change according to whatever i feel like, depends on subterfuge; so i am not going to start blabbing about what i do just to appease some forum ppl.

 

But since you were adamant that there was nothing an assassin can't do better than you, i will just say this : You can off-heal , assassins can not.

 

You are talking like someone cares about your team strategy... or asking for a tactic lesson. Thtas funny.

 

Youre dps so i was expecting to see something like:

im presuring people

im mostly finishing people in right moments

im a objective capper

im an objective defender

im support

 

and dps ops are legit on that role because of...

 

You are not lasy to enter every single operative thread and type a lot of words about how every one are bad. But when youre asked to tell something different: you are "not going to start blabbing about". Classic.

 

Inbefore some more mind reading - no, im not hinting that you are bad and operatives are useless.

[Dmasterr]

You are talking like someone cares about your team strategy... or asking for a tactic lesson. Thtas funny.

 

Youre dps so i was expecting to see something like:

im presuring people

im mostly finishing people in right moments

im a objective capper

im an objective defender

im support

 

and dps ops are legit on that role because of...

 

You are not lasy to enter every single operative thread and type a lot of words about how every one are bad. But when youre asked to tell something different: you are "not going to start blabbing about". Classic.

 

Inbefore some more mind reading - no, im not hinting that you are bad and operatives are useless.

 

See, that is why ppl like you never get to be pro.

 

You are only concerned, and care only about what you are doing. You should be concerned with what your entire team is doing at ALL times.

 

RWZ, is a TEAM game, either work together or lose. (regardless what class you play)

Edited July 8, 2012 by Dmasterr

[vimm]

That's certainly interesting, he doesn't take the only self-heal available and takes a small increase to Corrosive Dart damage and stealth detection instead of significantly reduced stun cooldown.

 

Hmm, strange indeed, as I'm sure I saw self-heals in that video, but regardless, with that build if everything crits, people hurt, but can still live. I've blown up lesser-geared Sorcs myself, it's about the only thing that feels good anymore (that and surprising the gosh darn Pyro that always railshots my face off and just blowing her the hell up from stealth sometimes).

 

I'm healing a lot lately anyway, but I was just as disappointed as I thought I would be when I tried DPSing with my shiny new optimized gear a week or two ago. Highlights don't prove much except lucky crits give lots of damage, like I said, but I'd be curious to see his stats nonetheless.

 

The complaints people lodge are when versing either equal or higher-geared opponents you're quite useless as full DPS whereas other classes (those aren't in the same icky spot at least) can do fine because they at least have survivability options/utility options and not just lackluster damage.

 

Hey, you quoted me in your signature (:

[Maxkardinal]

See, that is why ppl like you never get to be pro.

 

You are only concerned, and care only about what you are doing. You should be concerned with what your entire team is doing at ALL times.

 

RWZ, is a TEAM game, either work together or lose. (regardless what class you play)

I already got pro. But not in the gaming. So no, i dont see it. Sorry.

 

Back to the topic:

Your role, dude. Role. You are doing something specific in your team don't you? Thats exacly what i want to see - what do you do?

[Brool]

Your name Captain Obvious? Try to play for scoundrel scrapper on 50 lvl WZ/RWZ, then write something more clever on forum.

 

I dont need to try and I know a couple that already roflstomp people. So like I said, just because you suck doesnt mean the ac/tree does.

[TonyDragonflame]

I dont need to try and I know a couple that already roflstomp people. So like I said, just because you suck doesnt mean the ac/tree does.

 

Good luck you then with your operative, sucker. I eat them on breakfast with my guardian tank

[Kellindell]

So...

the "proof" you want is entirely subjective and anecdotal while being countered by differing subjective and anecdotal "proof"?

 

Ok, sounds fun.

 

*popcorn*

 

Yeah, I saw the title and read the OP and thought of the Princess bride when Mandy Patinkin says "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

[Tragamite]

Here is my experiment / challenge to you forumgoers (one troll in particular who swears operative DPS is just as viable in warzones as Hybrid Sins or Maras etc.). Name me one or more roles an Operative DPS specc fills in any warzone.

 

ONE CATCH HOWEVER. The role you name must not be filled BETTER BY or EQUAL TO that of another class.

 

Go.

 

So name the role of a DPS Op that is not less than or equal to that of another class? Serious? DPS is the role of a DPS anything so how can you even sublect this and ask for some kind of proof?

 

DPS is subjective to the class being played AND the person utilizing the skills of that class! I know a couple of DPS Ops that I want on my WZ team because they really know how to utilize the skills of the class. One MAJOR factor of the Ops DPS is it ability to truly "dirty fight!" How many times has someone been stunned to death knocked down or forced to try and find that stealthed nuisence pestering you? So objectivly sneak attacks and counters are the specialty of the Ops DPS.

 

While a DPS assassin is comparatively the same I would not necisarrily call them better. However, Is the Jugg tank the best tank in game? Hmm 2 other options in that role. Is the Sorc healer the best healer in game...hmmm 2 other options so it is with DPS! It is a matter of play style for DPS! If you want to be comparable to a Warrior, Inquisitor or BH DPS then you need to learn the tricks you have to play against them. 1v1 DON'T be suprised to find a particular class you struggle with while you mop the floor with others! But learning tricks either in PvP itself or against others in duals is where you truely gain the advantage.

 

There is NO class that WINS ALL! It can't work like that but that doesn't mean you can't win often enough! This isn't Real life! If you screw up against an opponent you have the opportunity to try a different tactic the next go round!

 

Bet Gen Custer wishes he had that option! Think how different history would be if we could all learn with each encounter and not just die outright.

[Motoeric]

ops have the highest front loaded damage in the game. in two gcds including the opener they can drop 7k+ dmg into someone.

2 second root with the longest slow in the game built in

aoe incap

sap

hard stun on a 30 second cd

stealth

incredibly slippery with dispels, dot shedding through dodge, dodge itself, a sorc like absorb on a slightly longer cd.

plenty of range.

 

am i missing anything?

also im just going to ignore comparing each of these qualities to other classes

[TiTaNsFaN]

yeah because operatives cant cap in cover either? newb.

 

The word "also" implies "as well" thus indicating another (better) pvp class can do exactly what was being suggested was an Operative strength.

 

Solo capping a node is not possible against good teams in ranked warzones I'm sorry; if that is the only unique strength people can come up with it just reinforces my point. Operatives are garbage DPS.

[TiTaNsFaN]

ops have the highest front loaded damage in the game. in two gcds including the opener they can drop 7k+ dmg into someone.

2 second root with the longest slow in the game built in

aoe incap

sap

hard stun on a 30 second cd

stealth

incredibly slippery with dispels, dot shedding through dodge, dodge itself, a sorc like absorb on a slightly longer cd.

plenty of range.

 

am i missing anything?

also im just going to ignore comparing each of these qualities to other classes

 

Smash Jugs, Carnage Marauders, MM Snipers, Pyro Powertechs all have more burst than us (at least if burst is defined as amount of damage done within the first 5-6 seconds of a fight.)

 

Try again guys. Still waiting.

[TiTaNsFaN]

Yeah, I saw the title and read the OP and thought of the Princess bride when Mandy Patinkin says "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

 

Proof refers to the evidence of combined responses in this thread; if the players themselves cannot think of a single instance in which an Operative DPS is preferable to bring to a ranked warzone than I consider that sufficient proof of the classes lack of DPS viability.

[Motoeric]

Smash Jugs, Carnage Marauders, MM Snipers, Pyro Powertechs all have more burst than us (at least if burst is defined as amount of damage done within the first 5-6 seconds of a fight.)

 

Try again guys. Still waiting.

 

pyrotech and marauder burst is NOT THE SAME AS FRONT LOADED DAMAGE.

 

do people not understand the value if being able to do your peak damage in the first 2-3 gcds after you open?

 

so stupid.