Marauders got 89% damage reduction against Death field!

[Chabodeux]

So yesterday i critted 570 with death field as a full madness sorc and i started to wonder how it was possible. The marauder didnt have guard or anything, so i did the maths.

Using sentinel terminology:

 

Defensive roll: 30% aoe damage reduction (talent, every mara takes it)

rebuke: 20% damage reduction

saber ward: 25% further damage reduction against tech/force damage

inqisitor buff: another 10%

and 4% comes from defensive forms. Focus specced marauders also get exxtra 4% from talents

 

So im aware of the fact that the scaling isnt this linear, yet the damage reductions do add together somehow, since instead 3500 i only critted 570!

 

It would be nice if this somehow would be resolved, since death field is our only serious damage cd ...

[Xtrema]

So yesterday i critted 570 with death field as a full madness sorc and i started to wonder how it was possible. The marauder didnt have guard or anything, so i did the maths.

Using sentinel terminology:

 

Defensive roll: 30% aoe damage reduction (talent, every mara takes it)

rebuke: 20% damage reduction

saber ward: 25% further damage reduction against tech/force damage

inqisitor buff: another 10%

and 4% comes from defensive forms. Focus specced marauders also get exxtra 4% from talents

 

So im aware of the fact that the scaling isnt this linear, yet the damage reductions do add together somehow, since instead 3500 i only critted 570!

 

It would be nice if this somehow would be resolved, since death field is our only serious damage cd ...

 

I somehow doubt he had every single one of his CDs popped at once, that would be a pretty big waste (and noobish). Maybe he had god mode, but 570 is too high for that. Do you know if you were taunted? That's another 30% right there, maybe that plus a CD?

Edited July 5, 2012 by Xtrema

[Chabodeux]

I somehow doubt he had every single one of his CDs popped at once, that would be a pretty big waste (and noobish). Maybe he had god mode, but 570 is too high for that. Do you know if you were taunted? That's another 30% right there, maybe that plus a CD?

 

Well it was a 2vs1 fight for us, so i doubt that anyone would have taunted me. I cannot claim for sure, but its highly unlikely

 

All those cd's? We are talking about 2 cd's. And in a 2vs1 you should use ur stuff

[Apocalypse-]

Most likely you ignored the part where you were taunted.

 

So it was 3500x.7 = 2450. Taunts lower outgoing damage, so it happens first.

 

Then defensive roll kicks in before any mitigations, so 2450 x .7 = 1715.

 

Now you've got 59% mitigation from 10+4+20+25, so 1715 x.41 = 703. Hmm, didn't work.

 

If they're focus spec'd, they take 9% reduced damage at all times but lose the 4% from Juyo. So 1715x.36 = 617. Close enough.

 

Yep. You attacked a Rage Marauder that had multiple cooldowns active and while you were taunted. Here's a hint: You were attacking the wrong target. It's impossible that you weren't taunted and your normal crits are 3500, one of the two is false.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Apocalypse-

[Sharpiie]

Why do you say "Marauders"? It's not like every marauder spec can do this, carnage and rage marauders don't have the 4% defensive forms reduction, and some might not even take the 30% aoe reduction.

[Alkiii]

Most likely you ignored the part where you were taunted.

 

So it was 3500x.7 = 2450. Taunts lower outgoing damage, so it happens first.

 

Then defensive roll kicks in before any mitigations, so 2450 x .7 = 1715.

 

Now you've got 59% mitigation from 10+4+20+25, so 1715 x.41 = 703. Hmm, didn't work.

 

If they're focus spec'd, they take 9% reduced damage at all times but lose the 4% from Juyo. So 1715x.36 = 617. Close enough.

 

Yep. You attacked a Rage Marauder that had multiple cooldowns active and while you were taunted. Here's a hint: You were attacking the wrong target. It's impossible that you weren't taunted and your normal crits are 3500, one of the two is false.

 

So this problem is solved by attacking a different target?

Wait ... what?

 

 

Don't you think that this kind of mitigation is a tad too high for a DPS spec?

And you wonder why people are stacking Powertechs, Marauders and Juggs ... who wouldn't with this kind of mitigation?

Edited July 5, 2012 by Alkiii

[durhame]

Mara/senti are the Tanks of pvp.. oh yeah and the best dps... go figure..

 

The need to leave the dps part alone and make them squishy

 

the mechanics are just all messed up.

[Varicite]

So this problem is solved by attacking a different target?

Wait ... what?

 

The problem is solved by not attacking the Marauder who is running 2 stacked defensive CDs while you are taunted, and instead using the CC that they are incredibly susceptible to and your class has in spades.

 

Then, when you are no longer taunted and the Mara's cds have finished, you kill him.

 

So yes, you decided to go on the offensive at the wrong time, when you should have switched to more defensive play until the opportunity arose to go on the offensive again. It sounds like you were not reacting to the situation at hand, and instead just trying to do your normal damage rotation / priority. It happens.

 

Now you know better. Whether you'll actually take that bit of advice to heart and use it to your advantage in the future is your call, but somehow I doubt that will be the case.

[ProfessorWalsh]

So this problem is solved by attacking a different target?

Wait ... what?

 

 

Don't you think that this kind of mitigation is a tad too high for a DPS spec?

And you wonder why people are stacking Powertechs, Marauders and Juggs ... who wouldn't with this kind of mitigation?

 

That "mitigation" is a temporary measure requiring 2 of their three cooldowns. Not only that but some of that "mitigation" came from the fact that someone else had you debuffed. You are only lucky that the guy didn't have Guard up on the Sentinel too, if he had then you would have only done about 270 damage to him.

Edited July 5, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[NathanielStarr]

Mara/senti are the Tanks of pvp.. oh yeah and the best dps... go figure..

 

The need to leave the dps part alone and make them squishy

 

the mechanics are just all messed up.

 

Yes it is odd.

[Alkiii]

Loving the rally cry of those defending this stuff, then justifying it with "play more defensively" and "you attacked the wrong person" responses. Unbelievable.

 

Very frustrating to be a Balance Sage these days.

[lpsmash]

Maybe he had a sorc shield on him that blew up with a part of your damage?

[Varicite]

Loving the rally cry of those defending this stuff, then justifying it with "play more defensively" and "you attacked the wrong person" responses. Unbelievable.

 

Very frustrating to be a Balance Sage these days.

 

Are you the type of person who repeatedly tries to put your fist through plated steel because you just don't believe the people telling you that it's not wise?

 

Conversely, when there is a rather large truck heading toward you at a very high speed, do you like to step directly into its path in an effort to show that your own defensive prowess supercedes the physical limitations of your human body?

 

If you answered "No" to either of these questions, I fail to see why you can't grasp the logic of not attacking the guy who is basically a steel wall for a few seconds, and then killing him when he is no longer nearly as formidable.

 

But, like I said in my earlier post, I doubt you will take anything from this other than "omg, Marauders are defending their class, nothing they say can possibly be helpful in any way whatsoever".

Edited July 5, 2012 by Varicite

[Chabodeux]

For god's sake i stated that it was a 2vs1 situation, noone was even close to us. What should i have done, heal the poor **** who got attacked? Of course i shielded him to win myself more time.

 

BUt what if you face the marauder in a 1vs1 defending a node? YOu will have to damage through these cd's. Marauders got vanish (gap closer) sprint and 13-15 sec charge. Its not easy to sit back and spam heal and wait for his def cd's to expire.

 

This is just one issue with the marauders. The class is insanely overpowered at the moment, and we can only hope that it will be redesigned.

[Chabodeux]

Are you the type of person who repeatedly tries to put your fist through plated steel because you just don't believe the people telling you that it's not wise?

 

Conversely, when there is a rather large truck heading toward you at a very high speed, do you like to step directly into its path in an effort to show that your own defensive prowess supercedes the physical limitations of your human body?

 

If you answered "No" to either of these questions, I fail to see why you can't grasp the logic of not attacking the guy who is basically a steel wall for a few seconds, and then killing him when he is no longer nearly as formidable.

 

But, like I said in my earlier post, I doubt you will take anything from this other than "omg, Marauders are defending their class, nothing they say can possibly be helpful in any way whatsoever".

 

Few seconds? MAN REBUKE lasts for 30 seconds and as i stated earlier you cannot ignore a marauder in most situations.

[mangarrage]

Mara/senti are the Tanks of pvp.. oh yeah and the best dps... go figure..

 

The need to leave the dps part alone and make them squishy

 

the mechanics are just all messed up.

 

wow there are people on this board that makes sense! Thank you

 

No you shouldnt have retardly OP def abilities when you can put out that much dps

Could you imagine all the mauraders who would cry if a sniper or powertech could get the same def capabilities

 

Actually probably only for a week then they would re-reroll to one of those classes because they wouldnt be able to be in god mode again

[Alkiii]

Are you the type of person who repeatedly tries to put your fist through plated steel because you just don't believe the people telling you that it's not wise?

 

Conversely, when there is a rather large truck heading toward you at a very high speed, do you like to step directly into its path in an effort to show that your own defensive prowess supercedes the physical limitations of your human body?

 

If you answered "No" to either of these questions, I fail to see why you can't grasp the logic of not attacking the guy who is basically a steel wall for a few seconds, and then killing him when he is no longer nearly as formidable.

 

But, like I said in my earlier post, I doubt you will take anything from this other than "omg, Marauders are defending their class, nothing they say can possibly be helpful in any way whatsoever".

 

So your answer is to not attack this guy for a few seconds ... gotcha.

What exactly am I supposed to do while he's squatting on me and it's damn near impossible to get away? Stun him? He breaks it. Slow him? His slow is better than mine. Root him? He leaps to me when I get a little separation.

 

So the answer is to not attack him for a few seconds ...

 

Gotcha.

 

 

The point in all of this is this; Why does a "PURE" dps class get such good mitigation to go along with the best dps in the game?

 

It makes no damn sense.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Alkiii

[Varicite]

Few seconds? MAN REBUKE lasts for 30 seconds and as i stated earlier you cannot ignore a marauder in most situations.

 

It lasts for 6 seconds if you stop attacking him. You have CCs that last that long. In fact, yours is instant cast and lasts 8 seconds, if you have Death Field. You also have an instant cast 4 second stun.

 

Depending on spec, you could also have a 5 second root on Overload, a mez on Static Barrier, etc.

 

I know that it IS hard to ignore a Marauder in a lot of situations (My Marauder is my 4th level 50 toon, rolled because I was also having problems defeating them and recognizing when to attack and when to defend), but it is not impossible at all.

 

I will admit that for a Sorcerer, it is an uphill battle, though.

 

As a side note, DPS Sorc was my 1st level 50 BM toon, hence the avatar. I do know your troubles well.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Varicite

[Alkiii]

It lasts for 6 seconds if you stop attacking him. You have CCs that last that long. In fact, yours is instant cast and lasts 8 seconds, if you have Death Field. You also have an instant cast 4 second stun.

 

Depending on spec, you could also have a 5 second root on Overload, a mez on Static Barrier, etc.

 

I know that it IS hard to ignore a Marauder in a lot of situations (My Marauder is my 4th level 50 toon, rolled because I was also having problems defeating them and recognizing when to attack and when to defend), but it is not impossible at all.

 

I will admit that for a Sorcerer, it is an uphill battle, though.

 

As a side note, DPS Sorc was my 1st level 50 BM toon, hence the avatar. I do know your troubles well.

 

How does one stop damage after applying DoTs?

[Chabodeux]

How does one stop damage after applying DoTs?

 

Exactly, he wont start with the rebuke.... and usually its not a pure 1vs1... Ignoring rebuke isnt that easy as you would think as a sorc.

[ProfessorWalsh]

So your answer is to not attack this guy for a few seconds ... gotcha.

What exactly am I supposed to do while he's squatting on me and it's damn near impossible to get away? Stun him? He breaks it. Slow him? His slow is better than mine. Root him? He leaps to me when I get a little separation.

 

He can't leap while rooted. Try stunning him, if he breaks it, mez him.

 

So the answer is to not attack him for a few seconds ...

 

Gotcha.

 

 

The point in all of this is this; Why does a "PURE" dps class get such good mitigation to go along with the best dps in the game?

 

It makes no damn sense.

 

The point of this is yet another "Nerf Sentinel!" thread and these are getting old. There is nothing wrong with the Sentinel.

[ProfessorWalsh]

How does one stop damage after applying DoTs?

 

The easiest way to get the Sentinel is to attack him without using DoT's first. Get him to pop Rebuke then cease. It doesn't last for 30 seconds the second he takes damage, it can be extended, so you literally shut down at that moment. Mez him, stun him, do whatever you have to and start using baseline heals on yourself.

[JayPres]

How does one stop damage after applying DoTs?

 

 

I know 6 seconds seems like an eternity when you're squishy.

 

The rallying cry is from people that are good at what they do and how they do it. I kill Mar/Sent easily with my OP, but only because when those cooldowns go up I get moving.

 

"Don't blame the freight train for being on the right tracks."

[Varicite]

Exactly, he wont start with the rebuke.... and usually its not a pure 1vs1... Ignoring rebuke isnt that easy as you would think as a sorc.

 

I can only really try to explain what I used to do. Please forgive the Imperial terms, as I have no Republic characters and it's simply easier for me to use them.

 

That's pretty much the constant dilemma that I faced as a Sorc in WZs. To DoT, or not to DoT... Classes like Marauders or PTs that need to be kited / CC'd, I would choose not to use Affliction against (Crushing Darkness only lasts 6 seconds, so I'd use that, but I would also not cast this depending on how good the Mara I was facing proved to be).

 

Other than that, I would use FL at a distance and side-strafe to try to maintain that distance when I could. If they leap, I would immediately Overload (I had the root, which is helpful) so they wouldn't apply all of their bleed stacks on me. Then I would pop Force Slow on them and side-strafe.

 

If they got Rupture off (usually they will start w/ Battering Assault to build Rage), then we'll both be at 50% for 6 seconds, so there's no speed disadvantage in kiting. If they didn't, well, you can gain a bit of distance to cast another FL. Obviously toss Crushing Darknesses or Lightning Strikes on procs. I was personally running a hybrid spec that had Chain Lightning and Lightning Spire, so I would use the instant cast Lightning Strikes to proc Chain Lightning and use that when Crushing Darkness was on cd.

 

Obviously shield as much as possible (I also had the mez talent, which is extremely helpful because you could click the buff off and AoE mez people whenever you wanted), and repeat ad nauseum until either they were dead or I was. If you are full Madness, you can use the 2 second root on Creeping Terror to try to get distance also, but I wouldn't use it until after you know his Cloak of Pain is on cd.

 

Depending on the defensive cooldowns they used, I would use my 4 sec stun against Cloak of Pain and try to get away. 2 seconds is about the time it takes to hard cast 1 Lightning Strike, so if I had room I'd do that. If not, run run run some more. Instant cast Whirlwind against Undying Rage, and of course there's not a whole lot you can do about Force Camo besides wait it out.

 

Note that I never cast Affliction at all against a target that I need to kite. At some point, I will probably need to use my Whirlwind, and I don't want it breaking early (which only lasts full duration in a 1v1, generally).

 

Yes, it takes a long time to burn down a Mara w/out using Affliction, which is awesome for proc'ing the fast FL.

 

If it's not a 1v1, well, there are really too many X-factors to take into account, but as you add more classes to the mix, the strategies to deal w/ the opposing Marauder become more and more flexible, so I hardly think that's a disadvantage. Mara is probably the hardest fight for a Sorc, so adding other classes to the fight generally will work out to your advantage, not theirs. That is, if the people on your side care enough to try to peel for you.

 

Anyway, you can feel free to keep flaming me for trying to be helpful if you like. I imagine it's still more "advice" than you'll get from most people on these forums, so do what you will w/ it.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Varicite

[Alkiii]

In other words, if you're a Madness Sorcerer or Balance Sage, just steer clear for Marauders/Sentinels.

 

That's what I'm getting out of all this.

 

Sorry gang, but I still think that the defensive cooldowns for the tops DPS class in this game, are too powerful. Justify it as you wish, but it is what it is ...