Wouldn't be nice if tanks could .....

[LenrocNewDawn]

..parry force attack with their sabers like Master Windu does in his fight against Darth Sidious/Palpatine. Lore aside, as it stands now tanks are being melted like ice cubes in Sahara by force/tech attacks and a defense bonus in the tank tree sounds like a good idea. Don't know what, a parry chance based on the defense rate maybe? What do you guys think?

[Never_Hesitate]

I think a tank should not be the biggest dmg dealer.

We don't need to put out a lot of dmg, but we need more survivability.

 

As a tank i don't have to be able to kill like a dps does, but i should be able to survive against a lot more than a dps does.

 

Not the other way around.

 

Just look at the def cd's:

PT Tank gets

-25% DMG reduction for 12s every 2min

-a selfheal for 15% of our health over 10s every 3min

 

Mara gets

-99% DMG reduction for 5s every 1.5min which costs 50% of their life

-a 4s vanish which reduces the dmg take by 50% (100% if specced) every 45s

-cloak of pain: Reduces damage taken by 20% and deals 134 energy damage to attackers. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Lasts 6 seconds. Cloak of Pain refreshes to its full duration when attacked, but this effect cannot last more than 30 seconds in total.

-increasing melee and ranged defenses by 50% and reducing the damage taken from Force and tech attacks by 25%. Lasts 12 seconds.

 

Why does a dps only ac has that many def cd while a ac with a tank specc gets only 2?

[Uchoo]

Tanks should be able to shield any attack IMO, that's the least I could ask. This is something that needs to be figured out before open world pvp starts back up, because tanks are going to be the bread and butter of successful comps.

[Never_Hesitate]

Tanks should be able to shield any attack IMO, that's the least I could ask. This is something that needs to be figured out before open world pvp starts back up, because tanks are going to be the bread and butter of successful comps.

 

Yes, tanks not being able to shield tech and force attacks (if i'm not completly mistaken) is just stupid.

[BambulaGTS]

Tanks could resist force and tech attacks in SWTOR.

 

Resists are the same mechanics like defense vs melee and ranged.

 

But for some (probably again that ol' good PvE) reasons there are no reliable way to get passive % to force/tech resistance in SWTOR: neither with gear, neither with talents.

 

All you can do, if I not mistaken, is to get some + 2 % to tech/force resistance from one class set PvE bonus.

[Never_Hesitate]

Tanks could resist force and tech attacks in SWTOR.

 

Resists are the same mechanics like defense vs melee and ranged.

 

But for some (probably again that ol' good PvE) reasons there are no reliable way to get passive % to force/tech resistance in SWTOR: neither with gear, neither with talents.

 

All you can do, if I not mistaken, is to get some + 2 % to tech/force resistance from one class set PvE bonus.

 

But that's just complete bs.

Not what you wrote but the system, that bw put up for force and tech.

 

So i can shield a mara but not a sorc and i can shield a sniper but i can't shield a pt?

[FalcoLombardi]

I think a tank should not be the biggest dmg dealer.

We don't need to put out a lot of dmg, but we need more survivability.

 

As a tank i don't have to be able to kill like a dps does, but i should be able to survive against a lot more than a dps does.

 

Not the other way around.

 

Agreed. I have 27% defense chance (30% with retaliation up), 47.3 Shield chance, and 42.5 Absorb, and it's hard to stay alive really long with 3 people on me. I don't expect to be unkillable, but I should be able to tank. Would help if all damages were affected by Defense chance and Shield

[Never_Hesitate]

Agreed. I have 27% defense chance (30% with retaliation up), 47.3 Shield chance, and 42.5 Absorb, and it's hard to stay alive really long with 3 people on me. I don't expect to be unkillable, but I should be able to tank. Would help if all damages were affected by Defense chance and Shield

 

Yes, imo they could nerf our dmg to a pretty low level, but raise our survivability by far.

The shielding issue is just another bw fail.

[Altheran]

Defense and Shield should work on every type of attack. Mathematically, two characters fighting each other, but one with tank gear, and the other with DPS gear are balanced only if defensive rates work all of the time, regardless of attack-type.

 

Plus this is has led to some oddities :

 

1. Major attacks are mostly Tech and Force, so people don't get the interest of stacking defensive rates.

2. Accuracy is meant to be a tank-crusher stat. So not stacking it, is supposed to made you less effective against tank, but for most of specs, replacing Accuracy with Power doesn't decrease your effectiveness but increases it.

3. Because a high number of tanks don't stack anymore defensive stats because of its uneffictiveness, even non-tech and non-Force spec can afford to not stack Accuracy.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Altheran

[Never_Hesitate]

Yey we can shield the auto attacks of the classes.

 

(i know they aren't auto but lacking of a better way to call them i'll call them auto attacks)

[BambulaGTS]

Actually you can shield a lot of hard hitters, including all execute moves.

[kweassa]

Speaking in terms of both game balance and Staw Wars concept, a defense-oriented tank being able to defend against both Force and Tech attacks do make sense, and is direly needed.

 

However, it should only be made possible through those who really commit themselves to the tanking - not to tank+DPS hybrids. Real tanks already make a humongous amount of sacrifce in terms of damage, and the the rewards of such high and meaningful levels of defense should only be available to those who walk this path.

 

IMO, they should trade out the 31 point Defense/Immortal power which is in many ways not very impressive, and change it into a passive skill that allows the following:

 

Skill name of something like;

 

"Defense Mastery"

 

* Shield chance will now activate whether incoming attack is critical or not - however, only at 75% efficiency

(ie. If shield chance is 40% normal, against crit attacks the shield chance will be 30%)

 

* Defense chance will now activate against both Force/Tech attacks - however only at 75% efficiency

(ie. if defense chance is 30% against normal, against Force/Tech attacks the defense chance will be 22.5%)

 

* The damage resistance against internal/elemental attacks provided by Soresu form is increased by additional 10%

(ie. 6% => 16%)

 

 

 

(ps) Oh, btw, when ranged defenses work and you successfully deflect a ranged attack, there should be another roll to determine if the deflected shot, is hurled back to the attacker, albeit at reduced damage. Heck, that'd be worth investing in defense rating.

[Never_Hesitate]

Speaking in terms of both game balance and Staw Wars concept, a defense-oriented tank being able to defend against both Force and Tech attacks do make sense, and is direly needed.

 

However, it should only be made possible through those who really commit themselves to the tanking - not to tank+DPS hybrids. Real tanks already make a humongous amount of sacrifce in terms of damage, and the the rewards of such high and meaningful levels of defense should only be available to those who walk this path.

 

IMO, they should trade out the 31 point Defense/Immortal power which is in many ways not very impressive, and change it into a passive skill that allows the following:

 

Skill name of something like;

 

"Defense Mastery"

 

* Shield chance will now activate whether incoming attack is critical or not - however, only at 75% efficiency

(ie. If shield chance is 40% normal, against crit attacks the shield chance will be 30%)

 

* Defense chance will now activate against both Force/Tech attacks - however only at 75% efficiency

(ie. if defense chance is 30% against normal, against Force/Tech attacks the defense chance will be 22.5%)

 

* The damage resistance against internal/elemental attacks provided by Soresu form is increased by additional 10%

(ie. 6% => 16%)

 

 

 

(ps) Oh, btw, when ranged defenses work and you successfully deflect a ranged attack, there should be another roll to determine if the deflected shot, is hurled back to the attacker, albeit at reduced damage. Heck, that'd be worth investing in defense rating.

 

I don't want to give away my 31 point talent as a pt, an attack which wents heat is very usefull,

But maybe instead of the 31 point talent, they could put it in the 2. highest tier.

If you are specced in so deep into the tank tree, it can't be a dps build

Edited July 5, 2012 by Never_Hesitate

[Altheran]

Actually you can shield a lot of hard hitters, including all execute moves.

 

Yeah it is true, but which spec has its hardest hits as normal attacks that don't bypass any stats of what makes tank being "tanks".

Very few... (I only see Annihilation Marauder, and Marksmanship Sniper and equivalents)

 

(ps) Oh, btw, when ranged defenses work and you successfully deflect a ranged attack, there should be another roll to determine if the deflected shot, is hurled back to the attacker, albeit at reduced damage. Heck, that'd be worth investing in defense rating.

It would be nice with the lore, but it will be a problem... Troopers and Bounty Hunters don't deflect, so they would be at a disadvantage.

Even though, I guess it could be done as one of the new abilites (temporary buff) when they will add 50+ levels... I'm pretty sure that it is on their "Wall of Crazy"

Edited July 5, 2012 by Altheran

[TheronFett]

Yes, PvP tanking is bad. BioWare wants us to be "an annoyance" rather than an actual damage sponge like we are in PvE. There's virtually no advantage to being a pure 31 point tank in PvP in tanking gear.

[LarryRow]

2. Accuracy is meant to be a tank-crusher stat. So not stacking it, is supposed to made you less effective against tank, but for most of specs, replacing Accuracy with Power doesn't decrease your effectiveness but increases it.

3. Because a high number of tanks don't stack anymore defensive stats because of its uneffictiveness, even non-tech and non-Force spec can afford to not stack Accuracy.

 

Read these two again: that's the issue right there. It's a chicken-and-egg thing. The more tanks wear dps gear to kill stuff quicker, the more the dps classes can afford to forgo accuracy, and vice versa.

[DimeStax]

You guys keep saying "I wish I could shield tech/force attacks" in which I'm assuming you mean, "I wish I could completely block tech/force attacks." Tech and Force attacks CAN be shielded in which case if you successfully shield an attack you will absorb part of the damage, however what the OP was saying is that he wishes he cold DEFEND an attack with dodge, deflect or parry which actually completely prevents the attack from hitting you at all.

[LarryRow]

Yes, imo they could nerf our dmg to a pretty low level, but raise our survivability by far.

The shielding issue is just another bw fail.

 

Just want to point out that this might break objective maps where your basic free attack is enough to stop a cap. Even 1 point of damage is enough. If I can survive for 30 seconds against three people, even if I'm tickling them, it will make objective pvp boring. 1 tank on each door in Voidstar who knows how to type and both teams can pretty much afk until the cointoss.

[Altheran]

You guys keep saying "I wish I could shield tech/force attacks" in which I'm assuming you mean, "I wish I could completely block tech/force attacks." Tech and Force attacks CAN be shielded in which case if you successfully shield an attack you will absorb part of the damage, however what the OP was saying is that he wishes he cold DEFEND an attack with dodge, deflect or parry which actually completely prevents the attack from hitting you at all.

 

No. In my case I wish for both.

 

Read these two again: that's the issue right there. It's a chicken-and-egg thing. The more tanks wear dps gear to kill stuff quicker, the more the dps classes can afford to forgo accuracy, and vice versa.

 

Why vice versa ? It's a one-sided correlation. If your defenses work, and DPS afford to forgo Accuracy, they'll make your defense even more effective.

 

I forsee guys coming and saying "So why tanks don't increase their defense if the way DPS are played makes defense worth ?" The response is : "Increasing defense, does increases your effictiveness against 1 or 2 specs, but decreases it against the 10 others"

Edited July 5, 2012 by Altheran

[Tankqull]

Tech and Force attacks CAN be shielded in which case if you successfully shield an attack you will absorb part of the damage,

 

nope they cant sadly, easily observable when palying a shadow/assasin with kinetic ward and its pendant. 20+ sec of crunshingtime vs 6 enemys lead to a death with full KW stack up(not shielding once) while having above 60% proc chance...

[LenrocNewDawn]

From everything I've read and know so far Force/Tech attacks can't be shielded. If you can direct me to an reliable material that says otherwise I'll be grateful.

And yes I was thinking about a parry/dodge rate against force/tech attacks but to be honest the real issues is that tanks have little to no way to increase mitigation against that type of attacks. So if you think that parrying/dodge is too much some form of increased resistance against those would be nice.

[DimeStax]

From everything I've read and know so far Force/Tech attacks can't be shielded. If you can direct me to an reliable material that says otherwise I'll be grateful.

And yes I was thinking about a parry/dodge rate against force/tech attacks but to be honest the real issues is that tanks have little to no way to increase mitigation against that type of attacks. So if you think that parrying/dodge is too much some form of increased resistance against those would be nice.

 

Read this:

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/understanding-swtors-avoidance-and-mitigation-mechanics-for-tanks-in-pvp/

[FalcoLombardi]

Yes, imo they could nerf our dmg to a pretty low level, but raise our survivability by far.

The shielding issue is just another bw fail.

 

Don't think nerfing our damage much more would help. It's pretty low right now. I mean I can usually get near 100-150K but most of that is probably from my Smash AoE and beating on a healer

[LenrocNewDawn]

Read this:

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/understanding-swtors-avoidance-and-mitigation-mechanics-for-tanks-in-pvp/

 

"Melee and Ranged attacks are Defensible and Shieldable, whereas Force and Tech attacks are not. This is consistent with other games such as WoW and RIFT, where “spell” attacks are not dodgeable / parryable and not blockable." Quoted from that link, so..... .

 

I'm sure that can find a better way to make Voidstar playable other then making tanks squishy against Force/Tech attacks.

Edited July 5, 2012 by LenrocNewDawn

[Never_Hesitate]

Don't think nerfing our damage much more would help. It's pretty low right now. I mean I can usually get near 100-150K but most of that is probably from my Smash AoE and beating on a healer

 

a tank doesn't have to do a lot of dmg.

i would be fine even if i couldn't get the 75k dmg medal, as long as i could survive against at least 3 dps.

 

imo a tank should be like a wall, if you fall down it hurts a bit but you need more than one to climb over it.